RB26DETT Swap into 1997 Grand Am?

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How do I go about swapping a Skyline engine into my car and make it rear wheel drive?

posted by  GrandAmFreak

Probably not worth the headache...it's gonna be A SHIZZLOAD of money

You are probably better off selling the Grand Am and getting a 5.0 Mustang w/the money

posted by  NISSANSPDR

you go about it buy buying a skyline engine and transmission, putting your grand am on a decent frame (mustang?) and tossing in about 20,000 and thousands of hours in labor, and 150 rolls of welding wire..

posted by  carls47807

The engine will more than likley fit. Fabricated motor mounts and some new wireing. However you'll have more of a problem of converting to RWD. You'll need the 5 or 6-Speed transmission from a Skyline. In order to have the transmission fit, because your car is adapted for the small confines of a transaxle you're more than likley going to need to cut a hole through the firewall and under the center of the dash to allow for fitment of the transmission.

You're also going to need a RWD rear end that will fit under the GrandAm. Preferably one from GM, although other rear ends will work. I'm thinking Camaro or GTO. Any RWD rear end that will fit with a LSD should work. I don't know what the hell this guy is talking about with "putting your Grand Am on a Mustang Fram" as the cars are unibodys. Custom driveshaft to fit the Skyline transmission and the rear end. These are just the basics. Most of your fabrication work will come from mounting the rear end, brackets for the engine, and brackets for the transmission.

It would be alot easier if you have a Manual car to begin with, although you can convert your car from Automatic to Manual as you'll be removing the transmission as well. This would be a highly customized job and if you can't do about 80% of this work yourself or witht he help of people willing to do it for free you're looking at a very pricey job. A Skyline Motor, Tranny, and ECU can be had for a littler over $4500. A rear end can be bought for arround $800-1200 or taken off a salvaged car for alot cheaper. You're going to run into a lot of metal fabrication and your rear end will more than likely need a suspension. Always have some extra money on the side for "unexpectedicies", as I like to call them.

The bulk of the project is going to be the Skyline Motor, Tranny, and ECU. Depending on how cheap you can get the Skyline powerplant will decide on how cheap the project can be.

posted by  DSMer

yes, the cars are unibody.

so when you cut the middle of the firewall out and a huge section out of the center of the car back to where the axle is going to be you are going to lose all the structural integrity of the vehicle. thus making it a necessity to fabricate it to fit a sturdy frame. starting with a manual car to begin with really will not make much of a difference, because the butcher job you are doing will result in cutting most of the floor pans out anyways. the only advantage may be having the clutch pedal, but that would most likely serve useless anyways.

posted by  carls47807

Did you just expect the hole thats cut through the middle to be left open for the world to view? No you fabricate sturdy metal to cover the hole. Kind of how RWD unibodys are made. You surley did'nt think that hump in your Mustangs floor was there for asthetic purposes only now did you?

Nonsense, any less installation of anything will make the job easier. If he allready has a clutch to begin with there won't be any need of installing one, thus making the job easier. A+B+C will always be more work than A+B.

posted by  DSMer

Dsmer - "A+B+C will always be more work than A+B."

but what if A is someone like yourself, B is your vehicle, and C is some tid-bit of automotive knowledge. Would C really make more work for you?

Didn't think so skippy.

dsmer - "You surley did'nt think that hump in your Mustangs floor was there for asthetic purposes only now did you? "

and i actually don't own a mustang, sorry.

posted by  carls47807

No matter what way you put it, if you have something extra to do its more work. Regardless to how insignificant the work is. I don't care if the last part of the directions are "scratch your ass", its still more work. If you can't grasp that then you lack more common sense than I originally thought.

No one said you owned a Mustang. I was using it as an example from your previous statements of "using a mustang frame". The same area alloted for the driveshaft in a Mustang can be fabricated on another unibody without the space. How the fuk else did you think it gets there? I'm sure Ford just stole a GM chassis because they were almost as stupid as you and could'nt conclude that by simply molding and welding flat metal they could create a channel for the driveshaft to fit..

OR

Maybe they just were smart enough to say, hey metal bends we can create a channel on our own instead of stealing an entire unibody from another car. Yeah thats the ticket right there. Because not everyone is an idiot like you, people happen to fabricate metal instead of just borrowing entire unibody chassis. :banghead:

posted by  DSMer

[QUOTE=DSMer]No matter what way you put it, if you have something extra to do its more work. Regardless to how insignificant the work is. I don't care if the last part of the directions are "scratch your ass", its still more work. If you can't grasp that then you lack more common sense than I originally thought.

hmm, but wouldn't borrowing an already made chassy eliminate the "C" from your clever little analogy, leaving only "A + B", thus speeding up the process. and we all know you would be an -idiot- not to use a pre-fabricated unibody instead of making it yourself, right?

as far as ford engineer's being stupid, i tend not to belittle those making exponentially more money than i do/ever will.

posted by  carls47807

Explain to me how would using the entire unibody from a Mustang aid in a RWD conversion to a GrandAM? What do you plan to do with the two? I'm dying to hear this.

Only a fool would belittle himself by accepting that an engineer at Ford will always be greater than he is. If everyone had your attitude then Ford would be the greatest car you can buy. Fortunatley people in this world have faith that they can be greater than the allready great....

So I'm waiting for your elaborate plan of using a Mustang unibody. Please enlighten me...

posted by  DSMer

The "ever will" was pertaining to yourself. When i become more successful than ford engineers, you may hear me call them stupid.

In my spare time i'll draw up blue prints for this ridiculous conversion, and be sure to run you through every step of the way. In the mean time, however, you can find me chillaxin with your mother.

now on-to better things.

posted by  carls47807

Seeing as that you have to draw up blueprints, you forfiet your stand. If you can't explain to me in words how you would use it then it surley won't be any easier than just molding your own metal to fit said hole opening. It is evidently clear that you can't properly comprehend the english language as the "idiot" I was referring to was not a Ford engineer. It was you, but surley I could'nt expect someone of your intelligence level to lift that piece of information now could I?

While you restort to your "mother" comments, I merely laugh at your idiocy. Only a child would say such things...

posted by  DSMer

and your grammar/choice of words completely speak for themselves.

posted by  carls47807

This is silly.

One, why use4 a Mustang floorpan if you're not going to use mustang parts in the car? it's just as easy to get older Camaro or Malibu floor pans and cut them down to size and end up with the mounting points for the rear end... of course, that's the hard way to do it anyhow. It's easier to make a rear subframe from rectangular tubing, and bend flat sheetmetal around the new driveshaft and trans tunnel.

But before we get to that bit...

The RB26 is an inline 6 cyl. It's fairly tall and quite long. Longer than even a Chevy V8. In fact, in a Grand Am, if you put the front of the engine at the radiator, it would be taller than the hood, and the rear would stick back under the dash. It's a vastly harder swap that putting a Chevy V8 in it would be (which is hard enough, but been done in cars like Cavaliers...). It can be done (anything can be done) but are you getting any real performance gain over another, similar, cheaper and easier swap?

If you already have the Grand Am, with a bit of fabrication skills, you could do an LS1 swap with trans and everything for under $5k. I doubt you could find a Skyline engine itself for that money. Unfortunately, the fact that you're asking how to swap a Skyline engine shows you probably don't have the fabrication skills, due to not really understanding the physical differnce in a logitudinal I6 engine and a transverse I4 or V6 or the engine compartment shaped to fit either one.

posted by  ChrisV

If course its silly. However, he believes that buying a Mustang chassis will be less expensive and less effort than bending sheetmetal arround the driveshaft and transmission tunnel as it almost always is done in RWD conversions. I don't quite understand why you need to create an entire rear subframe? Could'nt you just bolt a RWD rear end to the allready existing GramdAm frame, modify the shock mounts, and use whatever form of fabrication you see fit to ensure that the rear end is level and square?



Are we talking 2-3 inches longer and taller or almost half a foot longer and or taller?

posted by  DSMer

Because unlike the front, that is designed to hold the engine and powered wheels, the rear of a typical FWD unit construction car doesn't HAVE a strong enough "frame" area. In fact, it generally has no "frame" area at all. The front does. So you have to build something that won't tear out the basic sheetmetal back there under power (especially if yor' eputting a lot of power to the rear axle).




Closer to the latter than the former. An I6 that isn't slanted over will necessarily be taller just due to the vertical setting. Plus then the cams on the RB are on top of the head, making it taller yet. The pistons are pretty big, and there are two more inline on it than there are on the V8, so it's two whole cylinders longer.

posted by  ChrisV

Ahha.. never thought of it like that. So you would use rectangular tubing to build an entier new rear subframe or to enforce the allready existing one?

posted by  DSMer

I appreciate your feedback on this crazy idea. :clap: :thumbs: :laughing: :banghead:

posted by  GrandAmFreak

Why would you want to put a perfectly good engine like the RB26DETT into your car? From what I've gleened off the net you car is best suited to an old man with a cheese cutter on his head. 280 ponies and 260 ft-lbs may well exceed the car's ability.

It's all academic really, because you probably have to get it engineered and approved first?

posted by  Wally

Suspension & chasis strength/stiffness?

posted by  abless

Not even close.

I could easily see this car with 400+ hp:

http://www2.uol.com.br/bestcars/carros/saloes/sema01/grand-am-hotwheels-1.j pg



Not here in the states. Have you never seen a hot rod, Wally? Or has your life been too sheltered in engineering school?

My buddy built this mid engine, RWD Civic using an Acura Legend drivetrain, home meade suspension arms, and a lot of hours in his garage:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cvetters3/Civic.jpg

You think my V8 RX7 was designed to have 400 lb ft of torque in it?
here's another one:

http://www.ntahc.org/modifiedhealeys/Photos/126Marian/Marian2.JPG

Austin healy Sprite with a 478 cid Chrysler hemi.

Did you see the links to the Durocco, twin engine Scirocco I posted? Built in a garage for arond $1800 total including cost of the car? http://www.durocco.com

How about this CRX?

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/album12/DSCN0399_001.s ized.jpg

Built for under $2000 total, including cost of the car?

Wally, for all your knowledge, I'm begining to believe you have very little practical experience, and really havne't been paying attention to what's actually been happening in garages and carports around the world. Hotrodding, Wally. Building something unique out of mundane parts.

http://www.suprang.com/

posted by  ChrisV

In Aus. and maybe NZ you have to have any modifications inspected by a certified engineer before your vehicle can be officially registered or driven on public roads.

If I were from Aus or NZ I'm sure I would not know any different.

posted by  Bino

Except that we've posted cars like the one above in numerous threads and I Know Wally has been able to see them. I'm a little testy due to his rather insulting posts about what happens in the real world vs his engineering exprertise (which is very thorough). I mean we have a a thread in this forum already about doing a V8 in a Civic, from just a couple weeks ago:

http://www.car-forums.com/talk/showthread.php?t=10996

Hell, we have a KIT here to put a V8 in a Focus, using bolt in parts, avaialble from Kugel Komponents and even in the Ford performance parts catalog.

And again, even in Auz you have hot rods, and traditional ones at that, like '27 Ford Ts with big block V8s in them. I'm pretty sure that those frames were never designed to handle that power. But guys are doing that in theri garages around the world.

hell, here's one from Aus...
http://www.rodshop.com.au/projects/ratrod/large2.jpg

Ok, here's a V8 in a Cavalier. Looks deceptively stock:

http://www.nitrostreet.com/zmotor.jpg

http://www.nitrostreet.com/z24_3.jpg

posted by  ChrisV

Point well taken.

That Ford rocks. Talk about a beautiful example of a rat rod.

posted by  Bino

What the hell? The Pontiac GrandAM is probably one of GM's more sporty sedan/coupes. As a matter of fact, I'm seeing more and more younger guys ,like the ones from AEDcentral, who have become GA enthuisiast, turning average sporty sedans such as the GrandAm, GrandPrix, and Alero into tunable hot-rod like vehicles. I don't know how you Aussies do it down in the AZ but associating cars that look like this..

http://www.aedcentral.com/photopost/data/229DSC00221-med.JPG

..with your average run of the mill sedan intended for an older consumer, such as Buick, is utterly rediculous. Not able to handle 280 ponies? Maybe you have'nt seen some American drag races and noticed some of the NHRA's top competitors being Pontiac Grand Ams.

http://www.draglist.com/photoimages/Photos-2000/First%20look%20at%20the%202 001%20Summit%20Racing%20Pontiac%20Grand%20Am%20of%20Mark%20Pawuk.%20Photo%2 0by.jpg

http://www.jimyates.com/jpg/Haas2005_1.JPG

All sub 6 second cars. But don't let that convice you meet Betty Racer, probably one of the most known GrandAms within the Grand Am community.
http://www.aedcentral.com/photopost/data/6PICT0031-med.jpg

Don't let her looks fool you, this is what shes packing under the hood.
http://www.aedcentral.com/photopost/data/24betty02a-med.jpg

Its a Supercharged 350 in a 2003 Pontiac Grand Am. I've seen this car in action and believe me they don't call it a "Betty Racer" for no reason. Partial to the fact that its owned by a girl(I think), but that would only explain the Betty part.

posted by  DSMer

ChrisV you are kidding aren't you? I hope that was a flame. :wink2:

The guy wants to turn a FWD into a RWD, that I presume doesn't have the correct tunnels or strengthening, otherwise the advice to cut firewalls would have been duly corrected yes? The car is built for approx 150 hp and he wants to put a turbocharged engine in ?

Yes here in Oz we have to get engineering certificates and blue plates to modify a car and have it street legal.

No we do not have hot rods here. We do not shove V8's in minis, we do not load 350 chevs in Mitsubishi Sigmas, we dont have ratrods, we don't even have drag strips. Hell we all drive around in Morris Minors actually, which is why we make usless products like MoTec, Autronic and the like:- so our single draft carburettors and magnetos will operate more efficiently. We have a bad habit of bragging about ourselves though and consdier ourselves the centre of the auto universe.

You are completely correct I have never played with cars and google most of my answers.

DSmer don't be too quick on the uptake. Flaming tends to get turned around when the time is right and bites you on the bum. ChrisV has his own agenda, I suggest you make yours less parasitic. You open yourself to scrutiny when you put yourself on a pedestal.

posted by  Wally

It looks like there's a supercharger bolted to the motor. But the supercharger is not connected to the intake tube. That car is hideous, make the wing and graphics go away and I'm on board. On the other hand I must give props on the V8/RWD conversion.

posted by  Bino

Oh, and I've always thought the 2dr. Alero was a very sporty/nice looking car. I always figured they'd have a ringer if they just supercharged it and made it AWD, but that's just me. I think a RWD 2dr. Alero would be really sweet... personally.

posted by  Bino

damnit I just saw this hidden among the plethora of evidential photos of my incompetance:



Well why don't you just say you have been wounded and ask me to be more sensitive in future. Surely by now you would notice I don't attack unless attacked. If I was apt to sink the boot in on every silly post made by knowledgable members my own post count would be enormous.

Surely you can disagree with my point of views without having to try tipping a bucket over me?

posted by  Wally

No ones flaming you. Well atleast I'm not seeing as that I can only speak for myself. You called the GrandAm a car built for old farts with "cheese graters" on their head. My reasearch with Pontiac tells me that the car was never intended to be marketed to older consumers.

I simply showed you a few cars thats might change your opinion on the subject at hand without being foul, vulgar, or obscene about it. If you want to take it to heart and accuse me of flaming you when I've done nothing of the sort thats your problem. I'm stating an opinion based of fact. I don't beleive that the Grand Am is what you make it out to be. Just because it comes with 150HP from the factory does'nt mean thats ALL it ever will be capable of. If such a thing were true GM would'nt sell peformance parts for any of their engines.

So I challenge you to show me anywhere I made a negative comment directly towards you within this thread. It won't be there because it does'nt exist. Acusing others of mistreating you when they have in fact not, is'nt the best way to make friends. Maybe you should'nt be so quick on the uptake, I said what I said to contrast opinions and information with you, not to flame.

Bino, the 2/door Aleros are sporty in their own sort of way. They share the same unibody as the Grand Am however the Grand Am has the sharper more racier lines. You'll tend to see more of the guys that modify them go for this look.

http://www.aedcentral.com/photopost/data/15image02-med.jpghttp://www.aedcen tral.com/photopost/data/15aftermath.jpg

However, there are some sporty ones that take more of this look pictured.

http://www.aedcentral.com/photopost/data/492000_0016-med.jpg

posted by  DSMer

Fair enough. I just wondered how me posting that the car looked and is powered like a grandad's car would migrate into me not knowing anything and then ratrods and top door slammers thrown into the soup for some inexplicable reason.

I guess I tend to look past fancy bars, farings , scoops, skirts, spoliers, swirly paint etc and in this instance I saw a FWD low powered car that would suit an elder gentleman. It was not intended as a slight on Chrisv or yourself, just an observation. The engineering side speaks for itself and I stand by what I posted.

I should point out that I am not about to enter into a penis type debate based on the number and variety of cars I have modified. I can say unlike most lego mechanics I actually come up with my own innovations, do a lot of the machining and fabrication myself and yes engineer it myself. Because I don't crow about how good or bad I am doesn't mean people should assume I am bereft of practical talent.

I guess the many thousands of dollars I have spent on tools and machinery over a lifetime mean zip. I guess the power figures I get out of engines that exceed typical hobby mechanic's endeavours are phantom and I should not presume to think I have achieved anything. Well sorry guys, but I have the runs on the board and I didn't get the experience by hanging around asking for autographs in race pits or thinking I was a hero for putting cars through the twisties.

posted by  Wally

To be clear with the facts, I never said you did'nt know anything(That would be very stupid of me). I merely expressed that I think your opinion of the Grand Am did'nt depict the cars character by any means. That we can agree on. As you said ChrisV has his own personal agenda and that I should stay away from. I did... So spare me the ego talk about what you can and can't do. I'm not interested and you should probably take that up ChrisV.(No flame intended)

I gave you picture of a car created by an average automotive enthuisiast that contrasts your beliefs of a car intended for 150hp not being able to support more power than its set numbers from the factory. This car is a RWD V8 350 powered Grand Am. The guys that built it are no engineers by anymeans. Very smart and knowledgable men, they are, but none of them have BA's in engineering. They created a Grand Am able to withstand more than 400+ torque using simple skills aquired from modifying cars and metal fabircation.

Many people, like you, said it could'nt be done, or it should'nt be done becuase the numbers did'nt add up. Well some odd months later someone has a fully functioning RWD V8 Grand Am that has 4x's more power than the car was "intended" to have on basicly the stock chassis? So what am I saying?

Wally- "280 ponies and 260 ft-lbs may well exceed the car's ability."

Well Wally, there pictured is a Black/Pink Grand Am that does everything you said it should'nt be able. Its a supercharged 350, definetly producing more thatn 260 ponies and 260ft-lbs. Put "A" and "B" together, you should know whats up.

posted by  DSMer

Any outrageous custom "from scratch" mods that'd be worth sharing? (genuinely)

posted by  windsonian

yeah like I'm about to post more cannon fodder :laughing:

OK DSmer I like the way you are responding so I will expand a bit. I have no doubt those guys have thrown a nice big donk in the car and met with success. And as we all know if you throw enough money around you can do just about anything to a car. I guess I questioned the sense, not the plausibility, of going down the track of throwing a V8 in and converting to rear wheel drive a car that to me appears to me to be a Mr McGoo vehicle. If it was something more outrageous (eg a V8 in a Mira) I would probably agree with the concept, but otherwise why bother.

posted by  Wally

Ditto. It appears that we can agree on the terms that you don't fancy the swap because the car is something of an old timers vehicle. As long as we can meet at common grounds the on the possibility of such a vehicle posessing a V8 then we have bantered enough. To be honest with you I have no clue what a Mira is. Care to explain what it is and why they car would be an outrageous to a V8 swap?

In closing, I would like to add that the Ponitac Grand Am is probably one of the better V8 swaps I have seen, becuase Pontiac in the 95-2002 year had all of these "sporty" sedans in wich none of them had V8's and they were all FWD. The Grand Prix, Bonnvill, and Grand Am could at best come with 3800 V6's with supercharger. As far as I know none of the Grand Am's have ever been offered in Manual. Its a sporty GM coupe that lacked RWD and a top model with a V8 was just begging for this swap.

posted by  DSMer

Ding! And I'm tired of people that do the latter (and the ones that say it can be done, you just have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to do it safely and effectively).

If you have the experience in doing it, you don't MAKE those kinds of statments. if you make those kinds of stamtnes (like Wally did) then I don't gve two shits about what oyu say you did, you don't know squat.

I'm tired of enigneers who overthink things to the point where the only way they think it WILL work is if you overthink it to the point where it isn't feasable.

And as long as Wally keeps insulting a car because of a retarded idea about a mr magoo concept he has in his head, I'm going to continue to feel this way.

A car is a car. and an economical late model chassis is as good a starting point as any other economical late model chassis OR any EXPENSIVE chassis. if he had done ANY research on the net on j bodies, or on grand am clubs, he'd KNOW better than to think it was any more of an "old man's car" than a fcuking Firebird is. And even if it was, it's STILL a worthwhile car to turn into a project like this, especially if you already HAVE it. A lot of supposed "old man's cars" make cool projects for younger enthusiasts, too. Like, say, my old 4 door Falcon was.

Hell, REGULAR aussie Falcon 4 doors are family guy cars, yet the most potent Aussie musclecar was... a 4 door Falcon! Want me to say building a Falcon up into a performance car is stupid because the average 4 door falcon is a Mr Magoo car????

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

posted by  ChrisV

hello people
as i read all of your comments about this and that. i often wonder if any of you have build a car. if one person is to looking for a answere a question, you might want to give that person ideas. and inregards to the mods on cars of new. you can see that the new ones can be moded. 3.1liter 278hp motor and foggered to 478hp yes front wheel for now. for the mod this winter 91 independent rear end from ford t-bird. and i designed a f-1 chassis for this. with a 200r4 trans.
can you motor swap that motor into a grand am? yes you can. is it a good idea ? no! there are better motor to do this with. if you have any other questions please let me know. rdfabs.com

posted by  96 GRAND PRIX

Built many from the ground up.

posted by  ChrisV

ChrisV, I can completely understand your disgust within the opinions of Wally. However, to each his own and he is entitled to his own opinion. One of the better things that I have acquired from your teachings is that a car is a car. They all have engines, go from point A to point B, and bend when hitting something solid. Every car has something that can be liked about it irregardless to its make, model name, price, or physical appearance. I only find one fault in his theory, which I believe I have expressed. However, I'm sure everyone has encountered a car that would be considered a sleeper.

Since when has it no longer become popular to put powerful engines in cars that would not originally be thought of to have strong power plants? Is that no longer the idea of building a sleeper?

Since when has it not become a thing of car customizers and auto-mechanics alike, to perform unthinkable swaps that no one has ever conjured up? Is it no longer a common activity to do whats "said" to not be possible?

In the past few months I've seen ChrisV introduce these forums to cars that I could only dream of and correlate "wouldn't it be cool if..." conversations with my car buddies. I've seen V8 engines in Crx's and Cavalier's. Rear wheel drive conversions done to Civics that I could have only imagined. If such accomplishments can inspire the minds of people like me who lack the knowledge to partake projects as the aforementioned ones above alone, surely it can inspire the mind of an engineer who could use that knowledge to do it even better? That or you've seen it all Wally. Which in that case, I'd like to hear more.

96 GRAND PRIX, no I have never built a car from the ground up. Unfortunately, I don't have the time myself to build a car from the ground up, nor do I have a car that I would currently like to build from the ground up, but if indeed I ever wanted to build something like a RWD Grand Am I have the knowledgeable friends, garages, and tools to perform such a swap.

posted by  DSMer

For a person who doesn't give two shits you certainly harp on a lot. You can shout, abuse, swear. throw hissy fits and tantrums, cry baby, whatever, but you are wrong. You know it, I know it and everyone else knows it. Your juvenile tirades only hurt your reputation, which I had no intention of denting, but you just keep on and on like a whiney girl. You are the big man on campus and I don't have a problem with it. You have made it very clear you know more than anybody else in ths forum and guess what... I don't have a problem with that. If you want to wrestle me like a pig that's fine, but we will both get dirty and a pig likes that.

posted by  Wally

Now see how I hold out an olive branch and you come in using totally inappropriate words like "disgust". What is wrong with you guys that you get so emotional about petty things?

posted by  Wally

I agree ... DSMer, you posted something quite placating yourself earlier on, mentioning what you and wally could agree on, and then you go and say you can understand how someone can be disgusted with him ... in the same thread no less. I was going to commend that post, but then you tried to fan the flames again .....

posted by  windsonian

No you haven't. If you have the experience in doing it, you don't MAKE the kinds of statments you make. :wink2: I don't think you know one end of a ring spanner to the other. I think you are a google mechanic.

Look here's a pic of a Grand Am (http://www.nctd.com/97/grandam_p.jpg) from the net, its sure is a beast. :wink2: Now I have posted a pic from the web I can call myself an expert and be all knowing. My next staggering achievemnet will be to advise memebers to "pull codes" from their ECU's.

posted by  Wally

Wally... ChrisV wouldnt lie and I think hes definantly not a google mechanic, whatever that is, .. I think that was vwhobo.

posted by  CarEXPERT

Okay, I was never extending you the hand with arrows in it. I may have gotten a little carried away with the "Is it no longer popular to make sleepers" subject, but I was only kidding in efforts to lighten you up on the subject. Maybe I should have used some sort of smiley, but I don't like those damn things. It is clearly evident that ChrisV is disgusted at your opinion on the "Grand Am". However, that does not mean I am as well. I actually understand where you are coming from. Maybe the word is a little to harsh, but you're a big boy Wally, you can take a little ribbing :hi: . Again, I'm not trying to flame at you and I apologize because after reading my post I've noticed that I did come on a little too strongly. I'm still attempting to change your mind after I already set terms of agreement to disagree and I have broken that verbal agreement. For that I am truly sorry.

However, I really meant the part where I said."That or you've seen it all Wally. Which in that case, I'd like to hear more." No thats not a sarcastic comment, maybe you've seen soo many V8 swaps into grandpa cars you've become bored with the entire idea. However, I would like to know what kind of cars, projects, and engineering ventures you have encountered. I aspire to be an engineer(Well, I am going to be one I'll be starting college this fall) and would like to learn a thing or two from someone who already knows the thing or two. You may consider it boasting or "cannon fodder" :laughing: , as you like to call it, but I honestly would like to see pictures and articles of automotive projects you have done.

That, and I'd like to poke fun of your Australian cars. No Just kidding. :wink2: I genuinely would like to hear about cars like a "Mira". Also, some of the tools that you may have used to engineer your projects. Now boasting would be running around explaining how great you are, however I'm asking you to teach me a thing or two. If you didn't care to spread knowledge you wouldn't be here. So, what will it be ol` chum?

posted by  DSMer

Are you patronising me? :mrgreen:


The Mira (http://www.car-pictures-photos-pics.com/pictures/Daihatsu%20Mira%20picture s%20photos%20pics.htm) was the first thing that came to mind that would require quite a bit of nous to modify in order to accomodate a V8. I think form the link you can see why. :smoke:


And you are right 30 years of seeing smallish cars getting a V8 transplant is so ho hum. I much prefer seeing someone take a car and upgrade it to the best it can be, without wholesale changes that make it reminiscent or distant memory of the factory original and should disqualify it from being considered one. Sure whack in new motor or whatever, but it's hardly rocket science and at the end of the day you have a non homologated, unroadworthy car that has buggerall resale value (at least in Oz it's the case)

posted by  Wally

Said it before, And I'll say it again. F*ck you.



Here's a picture of an aussie Xy Falcon from the web.

http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/images/car_info/ford_falcon_xy.jpg

Quite the beast, isn't it? I can sure see why all the kids down under go nuts over such a virile car...

Listen, you POS. The pics posted were to prove your crap about the chassis can't take it, you need engineering, etc, to be the total crock of shit they are. You made a f*cking statment of supposed fact, and all I had to do was post pictures of inexpensive projects that have been completed to prove you f*cking wrong.

Doesn't matter whether *I* built those cars, people I knew built them, or I just found them on the web (which was the case for that Cavalier). ALL of them prove your inane comments wrong. And now you're no less of a whiny bitch than the typical teenage loser that we get here that argues with everyon who as actual experience.

posted by  ChrisV

No, patronizing was never has and never will be in my agenda.

Have you ever seen a show called "Monster Garage"? The host of the show Is Jesse James, a very well known custom motorcycle builder. What they do is they take 5 or 6 guys that are average mechanics and maybe one specialist in a certain field to build a "Monster Machine". The idea is to take a completely wild idea and just run with it. Not to sound anti-engineer and this is not a flame, but those who come on the show whom are engineers usually do the worst. They over think every situation and use math to conclude that certain things will not work. Jesse James motto is "just build it and see if it works, if it doesn't try another idea, because the time that you spent doing the math could have been used to see if your idea would physically work". I'll give you an example..

They had this one build where they were turning a limousine-like vehicle into a tree stump splitter. Which is basically a hydraulic arm that pushes a tree stump onto a sharp wedge that splits the log. There was a guy on the show who was a race engineer and drew up some diagrams and math to conclude that the hydraulic cylinders power was not enough to move the vehicle. He was yelled at by Jesse James who said "Who cares about the math, just build it". Turns out the cylinders were powerful enough to move the car.

Now I know you may be thinking that these cars can't be safe if they were built by a few maverick mechanics who think they can be engineers. Well I'll let you know that they have built a rocket powered Toyota Celica, an El Camino figure 8 racer(basically a crash derby), a drag racing ambulance vehicle, a NASCAR racer, and a twin V8, super charged tractor puller. Jesse James has driven ALL of the vehicles himself in which he could have been seriously injured. He crashed in both the NASCAR racer and the El Camino, but because these maverick mechanics used common sense in installing roll cages, safety harness`, and making good welds. All Jesse James ever got was a broken ankle in the NASCAR racer, and he was just winded when he t-boned a larger 4-door sedan in the Camino racer.

Maybe its a clash of culture, but a lot of people seem to like to try crazy things like putting jet engines in cars or V8's in imports that weigh next to nothing. Keeping the stock integrity of a car can be fun. Especially when you modify an engine that no one else has ever thought about modifying. Like V6 Camaro and Mustang racers. But it never hurts to keep an open mind that creating a V8 compact car for under $2000 can still be just as fun as modifying an already existing engine. Sure putting a V8 in a car that never had one will lower the resale value, so will driving it off the lot and installing custom modifications. Why should you let something such as the value of a car divert you from having fun. I don't know what you mean by "un-roadworthy" but I tell you I've seen that V8 Grand Am operate flawlessly under normal driving and full load.

No one ever said that makes you a rocket scientist or an engineer because you throw a V8 in a car. Not having a degree and still accomplishing the job only sweetens the fruit of your labor. Many people take pride in fixing things that they were never fully trained to fix or modify. I've performed a few handful of engine swaps to Civic's, 240sx's, and AE86's. I wouldn't consider myself anything more than an automotive enthusiast. I did them all with little assistance, trial and error, and a garage full of tools.

You may not be a rocket scientist or an engineer by civilian standards, but the guy thats started engineering and rocket science started off just like people like ChrisV with an idea. You surely didn't learn everything you know because it was written in a textbook the day man became erect? Someone, somewhere, in some point in time, had to do the same thing these guys are doing in their garages. Not every great invention was created by an engineer. Encouraging small projects like this could be the door to discovering a new design attribute in cars. You never know....

posted by  DSMer

Your last sentece says it all.

It's not necessarily the case here.

And two, if you build a car for resale, it means yo dont' ****ing want it to begin with. Build a car that YOU want, not that someone ELSE wasnts or says is possible. You're too ****ing stupid to think that way.

And that crap about unroadworthy? F*CKING RETARDED, Wally! THTA:"T the kind of ignorant insulting crap that makes you a f*cking POS. And since you're unrepentant, I will insult you in return as loing as you're here.

Oh, and



WHO F*CKING CARES IF IT'S FACTORY ORIGINAL? I couldn't care LESS if it could be considered factory original. They aren't f*cking religious idols! They aren't built by gods. YOU build cars that way if you want. But if you want someone else to build it YOUR way, PAY FOR IT YOURSELF.

Jesus. People have called me arrogant, but seriously Wally, you take the f*cking cake when it comes to arrogance and elitist bullsh!t.

posted by  ChrisV

you hurt the value of a STOCK car simply by driving it. it's clled depreciation and it affects all newer cars. And it affects well-engineered luxury and high priced sports cars the most. Funny how that works.

As for ruining the value of a CHEAP car with an engine swap? My V8 RX7 was worth more AFTER the swap than before. In stock form, a 100k mile '86 RX7 was worth about $2500 on the open market. by spending a couple grand on the V8 and the conversion, it was actually worth $6-7k on the open market (which is what I got for it 5 years after building it...). Yes, often the cars aren't worth as much as you have into them, but they are almost ALWAYS worth more than a stocker of the same year and condition.




Ding! And it's even MORE sweet when people say it can't be doine, or that it'll cost you tens of thousands of dollars and a degree to build it. My actual paying jobs for years involved fixing things that people with degrees screwed up or couldn't complete.



Ding, again! Though most of us don't do it to invent anything, we do it for the fun of doing something ourselves and building something different. Sometimes by combining the things we like from a number of different sources, sometimes by making something completely new added to something that already exists.

And I would certainly never say, "well I don't like those cars so YOU shouldn't build one." That would make my confidence/arrogance in knowledge look exceedingly tame. Apparently, however, it's easy for Wally.

posted by  ChrisV

Now, Now ChrisV...simmer down. Getting into the boxing ring with a man whose choosing to tie his hands behind his back won't solve the situation, nor will it make you any bigger of a man. Words were exchanged, and opinions differed. Due to a conflict of interest I'd rather not see this powder keg roll any closer to an open flame, but I feel that I'm inept with ability to stop such an occurrence. In all efforts to not incite blame upon anyone, this is really childish. You two are obviously good at what you do, just because you disagree with each other should be no reason that an armed battle shall ensue.

Anywhos, I have a long road trip down to U of I. I'd like to have seen this settle down by the time I return..

posted by  DSMer

:mrgreen: You're passionate ChrisV, I'll give you that.

Yes DSMer we get Monster Garage here and I marvel at their initiative.

Now Chrisv, my boy:

Why all the degree snobbery stuff? I inhabit quite a few boards where there are kids through to fossilised 40+ yearolds. No one carries on about their qualifications and whether they have more expertise or experience than others. They just argue out differences of opinions, flame each other now and again and get on with things. Hell on one board even the head engineer for a well known performance firm gets the rounds now and again, but he doesn't revert to name calling, even if he is wrong. :wink2:

Surely if someone doesn't want to carry on about his achievements, it is a bit impudent to assume he is incompetent, let alone a (sic) "POS , F*CKING RETARDED, arrogant, elitist bullsh!t, whiny bitch , typical teenage loser, blah, blah, blah... ".

.

So I am to lower myself to a lowest common denominator and emulate you or better still prostrate myself to gain your approval and avoid you flaming me? I may as well start speaking ebonics, grab a spray can and deface walls if I have to sink to gutter level.

To quote your own favourite cliche "sigh". :wink2: How old are you again? Do you put up with that sought of language/behaviour from your kids? Do you still beat your wife?

How does one spell tourette's ?

Here's an idea... how about you actually learn the proper automotive terms and fundamentals (instead of cliches) so you can speak universally with the world and feel less intimidated by people who value an education and common decency. I reckon I could take one of the veteran 15 yearolds from one of the other boards and put him up against you and he would nail you everytime in generic automotive knowledge (i.e. sans brands)

posted by  Wally

Now this, in particular, is where you are misinterpreting my thoughts. Maybe mavericks is the wrong word, but of course people can make wholesale changes to a car and meet with success. But, and it's a big but, do you really think someone who has the ability to do this would be coming to a board, that discourages indepth discussions, asking about the plausability of of completely changing a drivetrain setup, engine type and all the latent things that go with it, would have that expertise?

There is a big difference between an engineered chassis, engineered stuff bolted to it and a fibreglass canopied body ressembling a production car and an actual street car that has been extensively modified and possibly weakened. And when I say engineered I mean using sound engineering principles.

posted by  Wally

Let me say this. ChrisV does google alot... and I'm damn glad he does. He does research and gives the best possible answer to a situation as he possibly can instead of giving a bias opinion based souly on his own thoughts. I think ChrisV has the most experience of anyone here and he really knows his way around vehicles. Put that experience and expertise togethor with research and BAM you can go miles with that. To basically say he is limited to google is a pretty out there statement. Like I just said, his expertise and taking time to do research and think it over, then post his thoughts make for well rounded posts.

posted by  DodgeRida67

heh I was just giving ChrisV back some of his own. If you look at the first sentence of the quote you used, you will see it's strikingly familiar with one he penned to flame me in the first instance. I just thought what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

If you also looked at earlier posts in the thread you will also note that I do not have a problem with him being top dog.....a reason I have refrained from burying him, if only for his disappointing vulgar language on this occasion. And you are right he is very good at sourcing information.

Flame away ChrisV if you dare.

posted by  Wally

I myself am going to put a 350 Rocket in a 96 Grand AM GT, i am using a Ford 9" out of a Lincoln Versailles. This is actually narrower than the factory rear end of the car. One thing you might want to check out is go to a local body shop that does frame straightening, and ask if you could get a copy of the blueprint of the frame. They should have a Mitchell or some other brand of information that has all the measurements of the vehicle, for frame straightening purposes. Our local body shop frame guy just gave me a page out of his book. Also when you add some beef to the vehicle, start at the rocker panels, this is the strength of the uni body frame style. Add super structure to it, then add necessities accordingly. Competition Engineering has a nice kit that is a 4 link, or ladder bars, wheel tub kits, and other nice pieces to consider for this project. Also check out some cirlce burner companies for ideas, and parts availability. I hope this helps. PS It is nice to know that other people are not satisfied either with what is being produced. I myself had no desire to buy a car produced after 1988 until the new Pontiac GTO came out.

posted by  Saved

Dont ya just looove the thread revival we have going here?...to be honest mate, you'd have been better starting a nice new thread :wink2:

Still, look on the bright side, ya could have revived one from 2002 :laughing:

posted by  Cliffy

It would be a lot cheaper just to do a Chevy small block/ th-350 and 12-bolt rear swap. Though it would still be a pain in the ass.

posted by  The_Dude

Wow, it's a good thing I didn't stumble across this thread in the thick of things. ChrisV had to blow off some steam...I understand, it's hard to deal with morons. Guys are posting pics of some of the most hideous cars I've ever seen. People are posting pics of anemic TPS 350's...if it's even that...it's probably a junkyard TPS 305...oh yeah, and I love the way the blower was bolted on just for looks...no need to hook that up. All in all, this was a pretty funny thread for me....

Oh yeah, I love the references to people talking about Grand Am chassis' being strong enough to run 6's...lol, I guess he's never heard of a tube chassis car.

posted by  Sick88Tbird

?

The point was bolting 350s into a FWD chassis by converting it to RWD, being successful, and not having to have an engineering degree to do it. the Cavalier that I posted converted to RWD was using a ZZ4 crate engine (you know what that is, right?). the RWD CRX I posted was built by a frind of mine for cheap, and yes, ti was a carbed 350, but it IS a 350, and farily stout. IN a CRX. I'm not sure about the Grand Am that DSM'r posted, but the mounts and fabrication necessary to do the job proves his point. Being insulting about the cars posted don't invalidate the information or sentiments of the posts they were in.

posted by  ChrisV

ChrisV, I was in no means attacking anything you were saying, but many people posting nonsense. The original post was asking about a straight six into a grand am and that conversation seemed to vanish almost instantly. This thread got longer than it ever needed to be.

posted by  Sick88Tbird

why in the hell would you want to put a skyline engine in your pontiac. my :2cents: is that you should never cross domestic and import and if you do i think you should get shot

posted by  skyline7042

So you think I should be shot? Is that a threat? I've put American V8s in imports, and am putting a Lexus/Toyota DOHC V8 into my 1963 Mercury Comet.

Maybe you need to get a f*cking clue before opening your mouth. Your opinion is ignorant in the extreme.

posted by  ChrisV

1UZ-FE ?

Nice choice and retrofitted in sleeper Hilux vans here. :mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

Yup...

This is the actual engine:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cvetters3/engine1.jpg

To which I'm attaching a Toyota W58 5 speed, using the CRS bellhousing and flywheel kit. Then the 260 cid V8 and automatic is coming out and going into the '63 COmet hardtop that will be my stepson's first car in 2 years:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cvetters3/CometS22small.jpg

posted by  ChrisV

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