New stuff for Dodge..

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2007 saw the 6.7L Cummins Turbo Diesel being introduced in the 2500/3500 series. With an ATX, you get 350hp and 650 ft-lb torque, and with the MTX, you get 350hp and 610 ft-lb torque. In comparison, the Ford 6.0L Powerstroke puts down 325hp and 570 ft-lb torque. The GMC 6.6L Duramax puts down 365hp and 650 ft-lb torque. The towing capabilities and payload capabilities are pretty close across the board. The biggest difference is that the new 6.7L engine is already certified for the emissions standards that are coming in 2010, whereas the Duramax and Powerstroke are not, as well, with the I-6 design, the Cummins has almost 40% less parts, which means greater durability, along with more efficient fuel consumption, so it get's better mileage. The strange part about all three of them.....they can't use Dyed diesel in them, which is insane.

The Dakota will sport an upgraded 4.7L V8 engine, the only mid-size pickup to even offer a V8, it gains an extra 60 hp, putting the numbers at 290hp and 320 ft-lb torque, while actually getting better mileage.

BRAND NEW: Dodge is releasing a 4500 and 5500 series, to finally compete with the F550 and F650 and the GMC Topkick and Kodiak 4500/5500's. Should be interesting. We don't have much information available on it as of yet, but it should definitely hold it's own against Ford and GMC.

On the rumour mill: Toyota was looking at releasing a Diesel truck, but had to delay due to the '07 ULSD(Ultra-low Sulphur Diesel) Compliance, and may not come out now until after 2010 when the new emissions laws drop.

E85 Engines(Flex Fuel Engines) are becoming more widely available in the DaimlerChrysler lineup, and will continue to become more available as time progresses. With Canada increasing Ethanol production to over 650 million litres of Ethanol per year, these engines will be a good thing, especially considering the reduced emissions from Ethanol. E85 is comprised of 85% Ethanol and 15% Petroleum products(The reason being that pure Ethanol is actually alcohol, and they're discouraging people from drinking it by adding the 15% Petroleum products).

Annnnnyways, that's about all I have for now, I'll see what other tidbits I can come up with as I learn about them from the upper levels.

posted by  dodgerforlife

What's dyed diesel?

Interesting stuff...I didn't know Canada produced 650 million L of ethanol a year. I still don't support it though lol.

Also, you mentioned an I-6 design...Does that mean it's an inline 6, or something else?

posted by  chris_knows

Thanks for that late breaking news... Unfortunately, all of that information has been available for almost two months now, some of it much longer. Would you like to know the six wheelbases available (144.5", 164.5", 168.5", 188.5",192.5", 204.5") on the 4500/5500 or maybe the ratios of the Aisin AS68RC six-speed transmission available as an option.

Point is, that even if someone cares about this post, it's a day late and a dollar short. Time to find a more up-to-date place to cut and paste from. Or is this just to display what kind of out dated training you recieve as a salesman?

posted by  vwhobo

Well, we all know you work in the automotive industry and therefore must stay up-to-date on the newest stuff. However, not every member of this board is involved in the automotive industry, and may not have known it. Did I say anywhere that it was the "Ultra-brand-new-top-secret-your-eyes-only-confidental" information? Nope, I sure didn't. Just said it was the new stuff for Dodge, which technically, it is. The only thing I said was brand new is the 4500/5500 information, which only became available in the last few weeks, so maybe it's not BRAND new, but still the newest information about them.

And FYI, this isn't part of any of my training, this was all independent research, I was poking around on the internal website and found a few notes about it... Why would they piss around and train me on shit that isn't available yet(beyond the 6.7L Cummins)?

posted by  dodgerforlife

Dyed diesel is an "off-road" diesel that is dyed with a solvent so that farmers and certain industries can use it for a tax-break. It has a slightly higher sulphur content, and that's why the new diesel engines can't handle it. But seeing as all diesel engines that are built now are supposed to be ULSD compliant, the production on dyed diesel should be changing to a ULSD format clue how that's going to affect the cost.

And yes, I-6 means Inline Six...or Straight Six...same thing.

And why don't you support the use of Ethanol fuels?

posted by  dodgerforlife

I think you've said what dyed diesel is before, because I've heard that before lol. I was confused by the I-6 because it seems odd to have a 6 cylinders in a 6.7L engine lol.

I support the use of ethanol, but not for me to use...It worsens engine performance and fuel efficiency.

posted by  chris_knows

It's basically a bored and stroked out 5.9L I-6...that's why it may seem a little off...

And actually, Ethanol is blended into gasoline as it stands, usually at 10%, so you're already burning it. That and Ethanol in a pure form has a 113 octane rating, so it actually is a performance fuel, in fact, IndyCar is going 100% ethanol this season. Furthermore, Ethanol burns cleaner and slightly cooler and actually contains more oxygen(hence the burning cleaner), meaning there's less deposits left behind, so it also increases longevity of an engine. All vehicles produced for use in the USA and Canada(as of 2006) must be able to use at least a 10% ethanol blend. The new flex fuel engines handle the E85, the 85% ethanol blended fuel.

posted by  dodgerforlife

I think there was a member on here from Brazil who said that it was the law for all vehicles to use E85 there (Or it might have been E15 or something), and he said the cars made less power and while they were using less gasoline, they were using significantly larger amounts of fuel.

posted by  chris_knows

Thanks Dodger, I didn't know that, and without this thread I probably wouldn't have stumbled onto it on my own. :thumbs:

posted by  elchango36

Brazil utilizes E25 - 25% ethanol, 75% petroleum. And yes, in the standard form like that, it will create slightly less power, but at higher concentrations, you actually get more power. Like I said, IndyCar is going to 100% Ethanol this year...and those new flex fuel engines kick some serious ass. The new 4.7L for Dodge will be a flex fuel engine, and put down 290hp and 320ft-lb torque and get better mileage then the current 4.7L V8 engine.

posted by  dodgerforlife

is dyed diesel the red stuff? thats what farmers here use for a tax cut!
and thanks for the info (unlikely i'll see one but they do sell here along with near enough every dodge:laughing: )

posted by  True_Brit

that good stuff, im glad the silverado and sierra are holding up too

posted by  nighthawk

It produces more power? Any ideas how much E85 would cost?

posted by  chris_knows

True Brit: Yeah, generally they use a red dye, I do believe airplane fuel is a yellow dye so they can spot leaks easier(I mean a lot more yellow the normal gas sometimes has the appearance of...)

Well, Ethanol is slightly less efficient by default, but they overcame that by upping compression ratios in the engines, that's how they create the extra power. Say a standard gasoline engine has a 9.0:1 compression ratio, an ethanol engine will be around 13.0:1. Flex fuel engines are a special breed, where you can use either gas, E85, or a mixture of the two. Intelligent sensors built in to the system determine how much fuel is needed to be injected, while using that higher compression ratio to create the efficiency of using the E85 fuel, because it will take less gasoline to create the same power in that higher compression ratio then in the lower compression ratio.

Granted, with a lower efficieny rate then gasoline, you won't get quite the mileage with ethanol(in a flex fuel engine, a pure ethanol engine would get you about the same mileage as a gasoline engine), but the price of E85 makes it very competitive in regards to gasoline, so you would spend about the same either way.

As well, producing Ethanol in Canada will reduce our countries demand for importing oil from other countries :thumbs:

posted by  dodgerforlife

Good grief Gertrude, did you just have some extra time on your hands and decide you should start a thread with old and/or incorrect information about Dodges and ethanol? In no particular order.

1. To imply that I knew about the new Dodges because of some insider industry information is a poor assumption... And also wrong. It's been posted on for two months now, and you don't even have to be a member to read it.

2. "Granted, with a lower efficiency rate then gasoline, you won't get quite the mileage with ethanol(in a flex fuel engine, a pure ethanol engine would get you about the same mileage as a gasoline engine), but the price of E85 makes it very competitive in regards to gasoline, so you would spend about the same either way." What left wing liberal website did you get that drivel from? Flex fuel vehicles running on E85 in general get about 25% lower fuel economy. Support? Look at the EPA numbers for a Tahoe 1500. On gas it does 15/21, on E85 is does 11/15. That's an ass load. Let's not forget that also means you have to stop and refuel 25% more often too. Oh yeah, and E85 costs only a penny or two less than gas. And surprise, because it's considered a fuel, the price goes up and down with supply and demand just like gasoline. About 25% less efficient, about 1% lower price. Great tradeoff.

3. "As well, producing Ethanol in Canada will reduce our countries demand for importing oil from other countries." No it won't, at least not substantially. I don't have the numbers readily available for Canada, but I do for the US and let's face it, they're very closely dependent upon each other so the results will be similar. IF enough corn and ethanol can be produced to meet the government mandated standards for 2012 (nobody know for sure) and IF gasoline consumption levels off at 2005 levels (not a chance), ethanol will only reduce oil imports by .4 to .7 percent. That is correct, seven tenths of one percent, best case scenario. Hoopty doo.

4. IndyCar is not converting to ethanol because of some performance advantage no matter what the uneducated may think any more than NASCAR uses Sunoco gas because it's the best fuel. It's called marketing. They have been running alcohol (methanol) since the 50's, so there is very little actual change in the engines or engine management.

I could keep going and tearing apart your drivel, but I have money to make. Bottom line is that the only reason we're even having this conversation is because of a government mandate. If ethanol was a viable source of motor vehicle fuel on it's own merits, it wouldn't need government intervention to help it succeed.

I suggest anyone who has a genuine interest in the subject do some independent research. Use several sources, but make sure to avoid sources with a political agenda for or against it. Ethanol and E85 is just another way to take your tax dollars and put them in someone else’s pocket. Wealth distribution.

posted by  vwhobo

How much oxygen does it contain compared to petrol?

posted by  Wally

You probably know this, but to get clarification (for myself), Ethanol is C2H6O..Gasoline varies, but is generally C8H18. So there is more oxygen in ethanol.

posted by  chris_knows

Well, no... In it's purest form, gasoline may well be C8H18. In the real world where people put gas into their cars and drive down the road, gasoline contains about 200 (yes, two zero zero) different chemicals in it. I only see two in your compound. Time for more study and less typing.

posted by  vwhobo

So does mean I can use a smaller throttle body?

posted by  Wally

Only on your Indy Car.

posted by  vwhobo

Yes, yes it does. :laughing: JP

Hobo, I just finished chemistry and molecular structures...Turns out C8H18 is just octane, so in pump gas, there would probably be more oxygen, but wouldn't ethanol do the same thing?

posted by  chris_knows

Octane it is, but don't get that confused with the the term octane when used refering to gasoline. Octane as we have come to use the word is a measurement scale of how knock-resistant a mixed gasoline is. The other octane is a chemical structure that is naturally occurring in petroleum products. Got it?

Would ethanol do the same thing as what? Have octane or a smaller throttle body?

posted by  vwhobo

Can you tell me what the stoich ratio is for ethanol?

Thankyou VWHobo, I was worried I would have to spend money making my Nascar roadworthy.

posted by  Wally

I know, I know. :wink2:

posted by  vwhobo

The ratio for ethanol relative what? Or do you mean the internal combustion reaction between ethanol and oxygen? Yeah, I could do that (as long as we're talking about pure ethanol, and not ethanol as it is in a fuel tank [supposing the two are different])...

Wait...I might be able to, but only if the reaction is ideal (2C2H6O+2O2==>C4+6H2O)

Is carbon diatomic? I googled it, but can't find it anywhere...If it isn't, the reaction would be:
4C2H6O+8O2==>8CO+12H2O.Gotcha, I was thinking of octane in terms of knock-resistance.

I meant is there a difference between ethanol that's put in a car and pure ethanol(C2H6O)?

posted by  chris_knows

Good i'll wait for your calcs. Does petrol in the US/Canada have MTBE type additives?

posted by  Wally

We know it as "red diesel" here, as you've probably gathered, lol. It's legal as far as I'm aware, but only on on agricultural vehicles that aren't gonna be used on the road. It's red in colour so that HMRC (Customs & Excise) can tell it it's being used illegally!

posted by  Cliffy

At the end of last year, most gasoline retailers here stopped using it, but we use ETBE as an oxygenate...Although it's not enforced by law. Would Ethanol have ETBE though?

Here it is without any additives:

1 mol O2 = 16g
xg C2H6O = 16g O2 * 1g/16mol * 4mol C2H6O/8 mol O2 * 46.08g C2H6O/1mol

x=23.04g C2H6O.

23.04g C2H6O = 0.5mol.

So it would be 1 mol 4C2H6O : 2 mol 8O2.
(Showed my work so someone might notice if I made an error lol).

posted by  chris_knows

Its carzy that this Dodge topic turned into me chemistry class. :laughing:

posted by  greg985

Ok so Ethanol has a stoich afr of 9 compared wth petrol of 14.7. Then a 10% mix of ethanol into petrol would make the resultant stoich afr:

(0.10 x 9) + (0.90 x 14.7) = 14.13

So that means if I'm not running closed loop on my ECU the engine is going to run lean by 1 -14.7/14.3 = 2.8%? This might be a problem if I'm running 5% Co on my turbo engines.

And I guess my power is going to drop even more because pulp is about 33 Mj/litre while ethanol is about 21:

(0.10 x 21) + (0.90 x 33) = 31.8 = 3.8% drop in specfic energy.

I guess this lower power would make my engine run cooler?

What do you think Chris?

posted by  Wally

you lot look VERY smart!!!
i dont know what all this means but its interesting:thumbs: :clap: :mrgreen:

posted by  True_Brit

What's "afr"? lol.

You confused me, but if I look through it more carefully, I'll probably figure out where you got the numbers from.

Based on (my) logic, your engine would have to run at higher RPM to get the same power, and would therefore produce more heat.

posted by  chris_knows

I think he means Air/Fuel Ratio...but that could be wrong..

I have no idea what all those calculations are for, I hate math.

But simply put, they up the compression ratio in flex fuel engines, which produces more power without increasing RPM when burning E85, and so that you don't burn too much gasoline with the higher compression ratios, they have the computer control the fuel injectors when you're burning a tank of fuel that has more gasoline in it then E85.

posted by  dodgerforlife

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