351 Cleveland vs. Windsor

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I'm just curious as to which is considered a better engine nowadays. I've heard that stock for stock the Cleveland is better, but that the Windsor has a better aftermarket? Any thoughts?

posted by  Widowmaker2k

The reason the Windsor has a better aftermarket is two fold. First it's a much more common engine so availability is better. Second while the Cleveland is a legendary name it has a weak bottom end. Parts breakage is high, parts are expensive, etc.

Can you make more power with a Cleveland, probably. Can you make the same power with a Windsor for a lower price along with better reliability, absolutley.

One more thing. Windsors are an easier fit when doing an engine swap. The Cleveland top end is huge.

posted by  vwhobo

Thanx VW, you are as informative as ever. I really appreciate your help.

posted by  Widowmaker2k

just thought i'd add my two cents....VW couldn't be more right i have a friend who put a clevland into his foxbody mustang. He would complain for hours everyday at work about how expesive it was and how hard it was to find parts and how nothing fit quite right in the car. It seemed like a nightmare.

posted by  slavboy1

a 351 clevland can be bored and stroked to preform like a 429 the clevlands got a 380hp start without mods. the clevland is the way to go wink

posted by  niceride80

there's no denying it you can deffinitly get a lot of power outta a clevland and it would be fairly rare since people don't like to build them much. Again the reason for the rarity of them is you cannot find parts for them. I've seen a guy i know spend YEARS getting parts together so he could build one and then spent years putting it together when he found out some of the parts didn't work. For me personally it just seems like a head ache but if you have the time and paitence go for it man.

posted by  slavboy1

Please supply me with the imaginary information for making this conversion. And please tell me what car a 351 Cleveland with 380 hp came in. Thank you.

posted by  vwhobo

um.....a 1971 Mustang Mach 1 with a 351cleveland can put out 385hp stock 8)

posted by  niceride80

That is not information, that is smoke blowing out your ass. I also notice you gained 5 hp between posts.

1971 Mustang, 351C, 4 bbl, 330 hp @ 5400 rpm, 370 lbs/ft @ 3400. Source, Motor's 1972 Auto Repair Manual, 35th edition, page 2-349. I have put up now you should shut up.

And by the way. You could stroke the 351C crank .090" to equal the 429 but you're not gonna get a .360" bore on it. Not unless you think the rings will seat inside the water jackets. You need to read your magazine closer.

I almost forgot, a second source.

http://www.boss351registry.com/351_Cleveland.htm

posted by  vwhobo

oim sry r u gonna shoot me 4 the 5hp diffrence im also sry that ur vw have been defeated if that is wut ur sooo mad about um....... maybe if u had a real spec book and not junk such as ur book then u would know that a 351c is 330 or wut ever u said and u would know that it was 380hp. i also have a friend that is a pro racer and believe me he could smoke u in the wealth of knowlodge especially when it comes to borin and strokin so i dont think u should blow numbers out ur nose and call it right may be try looking at a book where my info is comin from called American Muscle Cars ByJim Campisano. i also learned that the 351c beats out the 429 stock so that means the borin the 1971 351c would out number a 439. the 351 was made to be a street engine and be able to be worked. so i suspect that u were upset because my post did not go along wit wut u said and now u feel defeated so im sry 2 inflict and shame but this is fact. thanks buddy 4 tryin real hard but ur sources just dont work

posted by  niceride80

First off try using punctuation, actual words and sentence structure. Maybe it's hard to type when your head is pushed so far up your ass, I don't know. Typing a garbled message and speaking in codes doesn't cover up the fact that you are wrong.

Believe me when I say my sources are more than reliable. Also believe me when I tell you I've been inside more 351C's than you have ever seen.

Finally I can assure you my Volkswagens have NEVER been outrun by a car with a 351, Cleveland, Modified, or Windsor. But I'm always happy to take their money.

posted by  vwhobo

::laughs::

I've seen many Vdubs obliterate some "muscle cars" and the losers just shake their heads in disbelief.

posted by  BavarianWheels

Bavarianwheels -well bavarian wheels let me tell you that any american muscle car could beat out a VW. What did a VW come in a inline 6 or maybe v6? (Please tell me because im not that good with vw's) Maybe you should check and realize that american musclecars such as a Chevorlet Chevelle or Ford Mustang came with a v8, ranging in the 300's to 400's. That would smoke any VW. I don't want to fight Bavarianwheels i just know that a vw was not as powerful as a musclecar.

Vwhobo-Now VWhobo let me assure you that my source being the pro racer knows much more than anyone out there. Do you watch pro dragging? Its nice to hear that you have been in many 351c's. But have you actually worked on them or just stuck a finger up your nose and said hmmm... let me tell this guy I worked on 351c's to try and look impresive. Well one thing you didn't impress me at all. Have you ever machined a 351c. Do you even work on cars or do you just sit behind books and call it working on cars? This pro i know has a full machine shop and believe me he ain't doing no half a** job. Oh one last thing sorry I didn't write a formal paper for you to be able to read it. I figured that it would save me sometime to use abrvs. and it wouldnt cause any pain or harm. And no my head is not shoved up my a** thanks for the assumtion anyway. Besides why do you always look to fight with people?

posted by  niceride80

what the f*ck crawled up your ass?

posted by  SuperJew

1. No, I just seem to get involved with idiots like you. I really, REALLY hate people who mindlessly spew BS... Like you.
2. NHRA licensed, I don't need a TV to watch it on.
3. If the person you know is so smart, why does he hang around with you. That's right, opposites attract, so the smartest person would be with the dumbest person, that must be you.
4. You actually got one thing sorta right. Most VW's aren't as powerful as a muscle car. But they are are lighter and hook harder. I consistently do sub 1.9 second 60's on street tire, quicker on slicks with my daily (almost) driven street car. Do you even know what that means?

Bottom line sweetheart is if you want to talk big steaming piles of crap, I will call you on it every time.

posted by  vwhobo

His head! ;)

posted by  vwhobo

Oh my...niceride80 must be quite young and spewing garbage he/she THINKS to over-hear during car talk with the older fellas. Fact remains, as vwhobo points out, is that VW's are far lighter than the average American muscle car and with the right set up, that little flat 4 can spew tire chunks all over the hood of that V8! Go and ask your "pro" friend if it is possible and he'll tell what you don't want to hear...if he really knows what he is talking about.

As far as the set up needed for such a feat...vwhobo would know best. I've only been witness to the fact. And believe me...the loser is quite embarrassed!!

posted by  BavarianWheels

ouch- that must hurt :D

posted by  SuperJew

Sorry Bavarian wheels that you think im young and no nothing. However i lived through the musclecar era and know excat specs on a lot of them. So um..... once and a while maybe you should keep you head out of your ass. I also think that i could smoke your ass in any knowledge of cars. And vwhobo yes i know that your vw is light but it aint hiting the 60's in 1.9 seconds thanks for the try anyway. It might be fast but it aint that fast. I dont think that a vw with a flat 4 could hit the 60's in 1.9 seconds. And i highly doudt that you have your NHRA certification. What was it printed off the computer and hung on your wall? I could do that too if i wanted. How old are you 16 years old? That obvioulsly knows nothing. Yea im talking to the one who says ignorant is knowing but not caring, and stupid is just not knowing so frankly you are igrnorant and arrogant. Maybe one day instead of being that way you'll change and admit defeet. What do you have all your little haters SuperJew and Bavarianwheels on your back. What do you know about musclecars anyway. Go back to your European cars because obviously you dont know much about american muscle. VW's are slow and could not beat out any musclecar. You said that if a vw had mods than it would. Well than why cant the musclecar be modified. Huh? Looks like a little unfair race to me. What do you have to say?

posted by  niceride80

What do I have to say? I say that with every word you type you make yourself look stupider and stupider. You don't even know what a 60 time is so that shows just how little you know about drag racing. Please refresh my memory and tell us when I said "You said that if a vw had mods than it would." And I never recall stating that I have only raced against stock American iron. As a matter of fact in all my years I don't think I've EVER run against a stock car, but I still take their money.

As for your "knowlege" of cars, anytime you care to impress me feel free to try. You have impressed us all so far, unfortunately it hasn't been a good impression. Go back to your magazines and Fast and Furious DVD and I'll continue building cars just like I have for 30+ years. Someday when you grow up you'll understand.

As for your comments about BW and SJ, I can assure you that while we don't always see eye to eye they both have more knowlege in their little fingers than you'll ever have. Please stop wasting our time with your drivel.

posted by  vwhobo

Maybe you're not young physically...but mentally...and how you express yourself along with your school boy spelling, it is quite evident that your thought patterns are a kin to that of a school boy telling his friends, "My dad can beat up your dad..."

Keep it up niceride80...which may mean your birth year is 1980.

Edit: BTW...the only reason you know me to like European cars is the picture and car logo for my sig and avatar...otherwise you'd have no idea where (or even what) Bavaria is and how it relates to cars... :D

posted by  BavarianWheels

I do, I do! It's the company that makes chocolate cakes! I smarter than you are.8)

posted by  vwhobo

and if that is true then he did not



he lived through the mostly-shit era. :D

posted by  SuperJew

vw hobo you are such a hobo because my dad is can burn your @$$ in a 380 chevy nova and his 398 gto anyday pal my dad races in the nhra and has a book of the 2003 nhra certifed racers and when i saw your name on your profile your name was not in the book so u can kiss my 454 chevelle's @$$

posted by  niceride80

Oh...vwhobo...please don't get involved now...niceride80 used the unbeatable, "My dad has a book" defense. Surely he's right. ;)

:popcorn: ...Popcorn anyone?

posted by  BavarianWheels

BW, you're right, his dad has "a book"! And it doesn't have the name vwhobo in it! Holy shit, my secret is blown, I am defeated and disgraced.

Just out of curiosity, when did they start letting 8-year olds in this forum?

posted by  vwhobo

there was no age thing i believe. or he could have just faked his age.

oh and BW i want some o that :popcorn:

posted by  SuperJew

Maybe if you werent such an idot to put your web page up on your profile a while back then I woudn't have known your name. Now I know your going to say that you never had that but i saw. So my dad's BOOK is worth it dumb @$$. And maybe if you werent acting like you were ten then we could all have real conversations on this forum. But you act like an 21 year old who just goes and rattles off on stuff he doesnt know about.

posted by  niceride80

Hmmm... I have no idea what you're talking about because I do not and never have had a web page. So, please share my alleged page with everyone.

And you're so right, I know NOTHING about cars. Oops, caught again by an eight year old know it all. You go boy! :rolleyes:

posted by  vwhobo

I'm a some what frequent reader of this forum and I know i'm probably going to be very unpopular by saying this but vwhobo you seem to like arguing with idiots a bit too much haha. It seems to me, now this is just my opinion and i know "opinions are like @$$holes everyone's got one and they all stink" but hear me out, I think that things would be much more pleasent if you just kinda let some stuff slide. I realize how frustrating ignorance can be trust me i know. But, i've found in my many 20 years (haha that's a joke ya'll) that it's best to just ignore it and stick to talking to people who are competent or atleast willing to learn. Don't get me wrong vwhobo i greatly enjoy your input and you do have a wealth of knowledge but some things just arn't worth it, and honestly it's gets kinda annoying trying to sift through arguments to find statements of fact. Well that's all i got, maybe you agree with me maybe you don't but that's how i see things and i just thought i'd throw that out there.

posted by  slavboy1

I agree with the sifting part...but there is so much entertainment IN the sifting...get me? :)

posted by  BavarianWheels

and sometimes the arguments are pretty funny to read

posted by  SuperJew

I heartily agree with everything you say, but... If somebody doesn't stop the flow of bullshit it simply continues. If a lie (or untruth, wives tale, etc) is told enough times it becomes believed to be a fact.

I personally would find it much more pleasant if people weren't here spewing their BS too. But until that happens I'll continue to attempt to set the record straight. Happy sifting. ;)

posted by  vwhobo

Haha thank you

posted by  slavboy1

Now I do not know much about the 351 Windsor, but I do know a few odds and ends about the Cleveland. Without getting into detail my friend bought a 69 mustang with a aftermarket 351 Cleveland, and it was sitting under pine trees and out in the warm/cold for 6 years. When he bought it he went to turn it on and right away it turned on, maybe this isn't important but I think its pretty impressive. Just my input, but the Cleveland seems like a good engine, but yes the parts are hard to find. Again I don't know much about the Windsor but it could be a great engine to.

posted by  wgpjohn

Where do you buy an "aftermarket 351C"?

posted by  vwhobo

Well it had to be a engine that was put in after the car was bought, it might have been used or what not so "aftermarket" wasn't the best term to use. The previous owner and my friend are certain that that isn't a stock engine, and I am not one knowledgable about Mustangs so I really do not know what they came stock with, I would guess they came stock with a .... a small block 302 (not the boss engine)?

posted by  wgpjohn

You are correct, IF it is in fact a 351C it isn't the original engine as 1970 was the first year for the Cleveland. And yes in 1969 the Mustang came with various engines the 302 being one of them.

posted by  vwhobo

Haha cool. I wasn't sure entirely about the stock engine but eh I guess I know a little more then I thought I did. I mean the Cleveland seems like a good engine and so does the Windsor, so they both have their equalities,
advantages and disavantages. I was wonder vwhobo, since you are knowledgable on vw's, my father has a 6- (not sure the year) bug and I was wondering do you know of any sites that sells refurbished vw engines ? As I am writeing this I think I should go to google and check for myself, but if you have a good one please tell .. thanks.

posted by  wgpjohn

Yes, absolutlely. Be more specific as to the year and does he want stock, modified, etc. Also let me know what part of the country you're in. Finally does he want a turn-key engine, long block, short block. Narrow it down for me and I can tell you where to go.

posted by  vwhobo

I am pretty sure its a 66 or 67. Yes that sounds about right, and the original engine was turn key so I am pretty sure that he would like turn key. Now onto the block size, I am not sure if he wants long or short, sorry about that. He is looking into restoreing it due to the sentimental value and such. Thats basically what I know, he wants me to look for engines and parts since it currently is engineless. Thanks hope this helps a bit more.

posted by  wgpjohn

Sorry Sorry .. the Beetle isn't 66 or 67 its a 71. My bad ..

posted by  wgpjohn

As ignorance rears it's ugly head...

vwhobo...could you please explain the difference between long and short block? I've heard some conflicting explanations in the past. It's one of those trivial questions that bothers me from time to time and this last post of yours has again peaked my interest. Thx.

posted by  BavarianWheels

Haha, I was getting ready to ask the same question Bervarian Wheels.

posted by  wgpjohn

Ignorance is never ugly if there is a desire to learn. I'll do my best to explain, please understand that due to the different designs there is some difference between air-cooled VW engines and most others. I'll tackle this from easiest to hardest to explain.

Turn key = Complete ready to run engine, install in car, hook up wires, fuel lines, etc and turn the key (hence the name)

Long block = Complete engine major mechanical assembly (heads, pistons, cylinders, block/case, crankshaft, rods, valvetrain), may or may not include oil pan, oil pump, valve covers, intake manifold

Here's where it gets sticky due to design differences
Short block = Same as long block minus heads, valvetrain and optional parts... Air-cooled VW's also do not include pistons and cylinders as they are not part of the "block" (actually engine case) assembly

Keep in mind this is a general rule of thumb as manufacturers and remanufacturers are not bound by any specific guidelines. If you're ever in the market to purchase one ALWAYS ask first so there's no surprise.

posted by  vwhobo

So then...I was way off on even my faintest idea. I had presumed that there was a physical difference in the engine block itself and not on the components it comes with. In other words, I thought that a long block might have a longer distance between cylinders...yada yada...

So long and short have the basic same meanings in different Mfg's? A difference in components and not the actual block... (I'm confusing even myself.)

See...ignorance can be ugly...thx.

posted by  BavarianWheels

Yessir, if you go down to your local Pep Boy's (or whatever) and order a longblock, no matter the make of vehicle you'll get the same basic components on the pallet.

I'm thinking what you're thinking is the difference between for instance a small block Chevy (SBC) and a big block Chevy (BBC). They're both Chevy's but have different architecture.

By the by, if anybody gives a rats ass this is post 1k for me. That makes my new motto "Over 3 million pissed off". Who da man, I da man! ;)

posted by  vwhobo

Affirmative on the big block vs. the small block... d'oh. Now I need a different explanation.

And now you are extrodinaire!!

posted by  BavarianWheels

This is also a fairly easy thing to understand. Basically the major difference between a big block and a small block (remember architecture) is bore spacing and deck height. Of course there are also other minor variations because they are different designs.

Although I'm quite sure someone will come in and tell you different, displacement while generally larger on a big block, is NOT a determining factor.

posted by  vwhobo

vwhobo congrats on ure 1000th! you truly are a CF extraordinaire.

posted by  SuperJew

My God Vwhobo u r a toatl and complete moron, U claim your VwVan will do 1.9secs 0-6 ? Am i right? Well ive got a list of the fastest 0-60 Street legal times.... Dude dont make things up. So your saying u can race the boss 10.0L mustang? Lol i dont think so moron second fastest street lagal car in the world.

1.2000 HKS Racing 180SX 1.2 sec
2.1994 Ford SVT 10.0L Boss Mustang 1.9 sec
3.2001 Lingenfelter 427 Corvette TT 1.9 sec
4.1973 Porsche 917/30 2.1 sec
5.2001 Hennessey Venom 800TT 2.4 sec
6.2003 Dodge Tomahawk Concept 2.5 sec
7.1994 Dauer 962 LM 2.6 sec
8.1998 SVS Stryker Twin-Turbo Viper 2.7 sec
9.1978 Porsche 935 "Moby Dick" 2.8 sec

posted by  lordclay

:popcorn:

This outta be good... ::munch, munch::

posted by  BavarianWheels

tell me exactly where it says that his van does that



.........
you know, i was gonna take this and run with it just because of how bored i am, but i don't have the patience vwhobo does for people who are intellectually challenged
i get pissed off too easily, comes with youth i guess
i'll school you in 5, 6 years, it's possible that i'll have calmed down enough to bother then
till then, have a nice day
;)

posted by  asa67_stang

now this one ill chill with BW and get some :popcorn:

mmmm buttery....

posted by  SuperJew

What a perfect way to start the day. The question is where exactly do I start with an idiot like you. Oh yeah, first welcome back to the forums, I like your new name. Your post is proof that you still know nothing about drag racing.

1.. Please show me where I said anything about how fast one of my vans is. Can't do it, haven't typed it, don't know, doesn't exist.

2. Please show me where I said how fast my cars run 0-60. Can't do it, haven't typed it, don't know, doesn't exist.

3. Go back to your forth grade class and ask the teacher to teach you about drag racing. Maybe she has the patience to explain the concept of a 60 time to you.

4. Take a look at what you typed. Your list contains only three "street lagal" (your spelling) cars. The rest are race only and one isn't even a car.

5. Lastly, from here on every word you type on this subject will be one more nail in your coffin of stupidity, please don't persue it. Now go home, look in the mirror and when you grow some pubic hair come back and we'll talk. Maybe by then you'll have a clue.

posted by  vwhobo

Well im sorry for the misunderstanding but i just assumed u were talking about a van.....

posted by  lordclay

O and for another thing i dont know what your talking about ive never been to this forum before.....

posted by  lordclay

Apology accepted. Next time don't assume, we all know what that does and it just did it to you. You didn't mention that you also assumed I was talking 0-60 but we won't go into that.


Well you sounded an awful lot like someone who has payed this game before so I took a shot in the dark. How about explaining the inconsistencies on your list of "street legal" cars.

posted by  vwhobo

on the topic of flaming this child the tomahawk isnt a car, for those of you morons. and its not even in production. geez. for reference heres a pic:

http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/photos/tomahawk-dodge.jpg

posted by  SuperJew

Your pic took a dump...but I did copy and paste into browser and it worked.

::shrugs shoulders::

posted by  BavarianWheels

It's working for me.

posted by  vwhobo

Still sittin' on the bowl for me...

posted by  BavarianWheels

Call Al Gore, he invented the internet, get him to fix it. 8O

posted by  vwhobo

See...that's where I went wrong...I gave a ring to B. Gates.

I shoulda known.

posted by  BavarianWheels

prolly a prob with ure computer BW....works for me too.

posted by  SuperJew

Who knows...all other pics/avatars appear fine...just not that one.

posted by  BavarianWheels

guess its one of those odd internet moments...

:twilight zone music:

posted by  SuperJew

vwhobo, it might have been helpful is you explained you were talking about 60 foot times, not 0-60 acceleration. But, I guess you didn't because you find their ignorance amusing. Lol, I do too. :D

posted by  Ground Rat

Since this topic was originally about 351s, I've got some pics for you of my friends old POS 351M. He complains about parts being hard to find, it's a 351 modified, go figure.

http://photo.thetechzone.com/data//503/6205Nasty_Block_1-med.jpg

http://photo.thetechzone.com/data//503/6205Nasty_Head-med.jpg

http://photo.thetechzone.com/data//503/6205Bent_Pushrod-med.jpg

posted by  Ground Rat

on the topic of the 351M
a handful of info from a guy that i would listen to over the Hobo(but you're a close second ;) )
he's a Kiwi, but i don't hold that against him

posted by  asa67_stang

http://photo.thetechzone.com/data//500/6205WTF2.jpg

posted by  Ground Rat

BADGERS!!!!!!!
badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger

mush-ROOM!

posted by  asa67_stang

WTF?!?!

posted by  Satty101

dude what do they serve you over at Andrews... :D

posted by  SuperJew

Lol, I'm in Afghanistan right now. The food is...questionable. :?

posted by  Ground Rat

Let me enlighten you: http://badgerbadgerbadger.com/

posted by  Ground Rat

they have the internet there? thats news. :D

posted by  SuperJew

hahahaha!! that's awesome. DAMN YOU GR! I can't stop watching that!

posted by  Satty101

Most of "them" don't, but being in the communications profession for the military, I do. :D Everything has to hit a satellite though, so not super fast like back home, but still better than dialup.

posted by  Ground Rat

yeah were spoiled here with our cable internet... :D

posted by  SuperJew

:D

posted by  Satty101

:x

posted by  Ground Rat

ah yes... nice fast internet is a good thing...

;)

posted by  asa67_stang

I switching back and forth between this forum and 2 others. so yes, Fast internet is VERY VERY nice. :D

posted by  Satty101

watching and DLing porno is better....oops.... :oops: ..... :D

posted by  SuperJew

Oh yeah, well at least I get shot at...oh wait...damn. Damn you all!

posted by  Ground Rat

lol :D

posted by  Satty101

New to this forum, but thought i may be able to provide some insite into the actual issue at hand...
The 351 Cleveland versus the Windsor motor...

-It came to my attention that many times it has been wrongly reported that Cleveland parts are Significantly more expensive than the Windsor. That statement is completely false... Listed are 2 comparisons of commonly purchased parts for both the Cleveland and Windsor, all prices are from Jegs...
Windsor:Edelbrock Performer Manifold
350-2181 Manifold only | View Product | More Details $169.99
350-2181K Manifold w/Installation Kit | More Details $205.99
Cleveland:Edelbrock Performer Manifold
Ford 351C w/2-BBL Heads, non-EGR
350-2750 Manifold only | More Details $189.99
350-2750K Manifold w/Installation Kit | More Details $217.99
Ford 351C w/4-BBL Heads, non-EGR
350-2665 Manifold only | More Details $179.99
350-2665K Maninfold w/Installation Kit | More Details $207.99
Windsor: Hooker Competition Headers
Mustang 351W $149.99
Cleveland:Hooker Competition Headers
Mustang 351C 2V/4V $181.99 (i listed 2 and 4V together because they are the same price, even though they are different in port size)
Now these are only 2 examples if you would like to compare more then feel free to check Jegs, or Summit, or Paws, another good tip is to go to some local Swap meets, at these you can find good deals on otherwise expensive parts...I found headers for a 351C 4V for 50$...
-Next is the Durability of the Cleveland motors Bottom end...
The statement that the clevelands bottom end is in anyway poor for durability is also untrue, the fact of the matter is that as a stock motor the bottom end on 2V and 4V motors was good, and the the 71 Boss bottom end was excellent with its shotpeened connecting rods, 180,000Psi CR Bolts, and high nodularity crankshaft, made for a bottom end being able to handle 8000rpms... also the 351W had thin main bearing caps while the cleveland had large main bearing caps that came in both 2 and 4 Bolt versions...
-Next is the issue on power production...
Stock the Cleveland makes more power than the Windsor, and if both engines were to be modified equally the Cleveland would once again make more power...but why some of you may ask?...
Its very simple design...the Cleveland was designed to be fords greatest engine having the power of a bigblock and the weight of a smallblock, had the gas crisis never happened the Cleveland would have been by far the best engine made...the biggest difference between the Windsors and Clevelands power potential is the cylinder heads, the Windsor uses an inline valve train with rather small valves, and wedge shaped combustion chambers, and as every knows that setup is fine, but the cleveland has a canted valvetrain with large valves even on the 2V setup the valves were large (2V I-2.02, E-1.65 4V I-2.19 E-1.71) and a semi-hemispherical combustion chamber making for a truly potent setup right off the assembly line...Now im sure some may make the point that the Windsor made and equal or more power than the Cleveland Notice these numbers-
1969 1970
Engine 351W-2V 351W-4V 351C-4V
Horsepower@rpm 250@4600 290@4800 300@5400
Torque@rpm 355@2600 385@3200 380@3400
Bore x Stroke 4.000x3.500 4.000x3.500 4.000x3.500
Compression Ratio 9.5:1 10.7:1 11.0:1
Now at first you may say that "OH LOOK the windsor is just as good" but looking closer at the data the Cleveland has 600 more RPM in its power band for HP and 200RPM more in Torque.
Next is that taken as a stock motor yes they are very close in power production, but its when you start to modify the motor that the cleveland starts to really shine. As many engine builders know the bigger the valves you have the better flow you get, the cleveland comes stock with large valves and ports whereas the Windsor needs to have the cylinder heads completely reworked, or going out and spending 2000+ on a set of Aluminum ones which even then could still use port and valve work...Now someone can argue that the aluminum heads are lighter so the cost is worth it, so buy aluminum cylinder heads for the clevelandfor 2k+ which are now offered by Bluethunder I believe, and if your looking for some real HP check out Arao Engineering http://www.araoengineering.com/Ford/clevelnd.htm if your wallet can afford it you can get some sick heads for both the Cleveland or Windsor...


So its really not a matter of money or parts availability (there are more parts for the Windsor than Cleveland but the Cleveland does have parts out there and a good amount of them too.), its a matter of taste...

Hope this clears up some issues...

posted by  Integer8

i didn't have time to read this whole forum but im so happy to see how many people here know about mustang engines....the funny thing is that yesterday i was watching this racing movie and the guy had a 69 fastback with a 351 cleveland so it left me doing some research comparing it to the 351 windsor.

posted by  pito11414

im not even a ford guy and i know that the 351 C motor is a damn strong motor. My dad's 73 ranchero has 300,000 miles on the original engine and it isn't even leaking oil so dont try saying that parts break for the 351's. im sure the windsor may have alot more parts for cheap... but cheap doesn't mean quality.
besides my 440 charger will own that fugly vw anyday of the week.. if your such a vw fan.. put a vw engine in it... leave the fords alone... oh thats right... i forgot that vw's SUCK! and dont even make decent engines w/ power

posted by  savage68

Really nice first post there savage68...nothing like making a "good" first impression.

You seem to forget that Vdubs are smaller lighter and quicker off the line...and that may be all the edge they need.

But I'll leave the real "argument" to the VW experts. :sleep:
.
.

posted by  BavarianWheels

damn i thought my 270,000 miles was alot but 300,000 thats awesome

posted by  pito11414

I'm sure you think it will, and that's just fine with me. By the way, any moron can make big power with a 440. On the other hand my slow, fugly, sucking, powerless, daily driver VW will run high 10's all day. And take money from bozos like you on Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday nights. So the real question is, who sucks? Why that'd be you.

posted by  vwhobo

Very easy question to answer. I ask you, "Why build a modified Winsdor when for a lower overall cost you can build a 351Cleveland which will run rings around the Windsor"? People will say that there's more aftermarket gear for the Windsor. That maybe true. Fact is that some of the fastest drag cars have Clevo's and not Windsor's.

posted by  lucas

Now this time read the question that was originally asked, not the one you made up. The answer to the original question is the Windsor has a better aftermarket. Now ask yourself this. If the Cleveland is as good as you say, why are essentially all of the engines used in the numerous Mustang drag racing series Windsors? Inquiring minds want to know.

Oh yeah. How about citing some of those fastest drag cars with Clevelands.

posted by  vwhobo

I think I understood the question pretty well. A better engine can also be considered as to one that responds better to modificatiions. Also, note in my answer that I did say that the Windsor in the U.S. has more after market products. Also, in the U.S. ProStock drag racing, the fastest Fords run Clevo's not Windsors.

posted by  lucas

I will partially cede the first point, although better could also mean fuel economy, easier to maintain, lighter, etc. Better covers too many different possibilities to make the assumption you did.

As for the "U.S. ProStock drag racing" do you mean NHRA or IHRA? I'm pretty sure you do. Contrary to your popular belief they don't run a Cleveland, they run 500 ci Ford Wedge engines. About the only similarity between them and Clevelands is that they both have eight cylinders. Show me one Pro Stocker running a Cleveland. You might have some trouble because there just aren't too many Fords running Pro Stock anymore.

posted by  vwhobo

Firstly, Integer8 quote dated 02-06-04 was pretty good for anyone who wants to look further into the issue of the Cleveland vs Windsor.
VWhobo wishes to discuss Mustang powered drag cars. Lets talk about Mustang powered Clevelands and Windsors and even compare the Boss 351 Cleveland with the 429CJ. The Boss 302 Windosr was a great motor. Reliability and durability and performance for a motor of that size was very good. But, did we know that the Boss 302 had Cleveland heads? The Boss 351 Cleveland remains the fastest mustang musclecar with a quater mile of 13.8 at 104mph bettering the 429CJ 14.61 at 96.8mph. Like integer8 said, if both the Windsor and Cleveland had the same modifications the Clevo would certainly shine supreme. www.mustangfords.com

Also I was referring to NHRA Pro Stock. The 351 Cleveland dominated NHRA Pro Srock drag racing before it was banned from Nascar for having an unfair advantage over other manufacturers. www.off-road.com/ford/flashback/400_power.html

posted by  lucas

Heres a good site of the various 1/4mile times the Boss351 ran
http://www.boss351registry.com/Track%20Times.htm
For a 4000+lb car a 13.8 is damn good, but if you invest in some 21'st century technology (not exactly cheap though) you can get your Cleveland up to 1000+HP, thats all good for the STREET,all you need to get is the Arao cylinder heads, and a good supercharger, and your gonna be able to run high 8's low 9's in your 4000+lb car, not too shabby....

posted by  Integer8

Man, I always get to these things too late to have fun!

Where do these people come from? vwhobo sounds like me on some other boards, having to put up with 12 year old cretins that spout bullshit and then can't admit to making a mistake...

First off, to everyone putting down the air cooled VWs... Air cooled VW beetles have been schooling muscle car owners since the early '70s, when the 2180cc big bore enignes became reasonably reliable. Since the mid '80s, those cars had become daily driveable.

Here's the facts: MOST classic musclecars were 13-14 second rides, unless they had slicks. Beetles didn't need slicks because they were light (1700lbs or less), and all the weight was on the drive wheels. A 150 hp street 2 liter air cooled 4 cyl was enough to propel the cars to low 13 second quarter miles. But more importantly for stoplight drags, the gearing was so steep and the launch so good that a 150 hp street bug could stomp a 500 hp musclecar through the first couple gears. And when I mean stomp, I'm talking carlengths after only 2 gears. If a turbo motor, or a more race ready N/A motor was in the bug, 10s and sometimes even 9s in the quarter were available.

These days, the PRA Super Street class bugs (steel bodies, all road equipment) are running 10s on 7 inch wide tires. Even the 1600 CC class cars are hitting low 12s... You would do well to watch out for airt cooled Bugs that sound more like big bore motorcycles...

Here's a video of a 10.06 second run in a street legal Bug (yes, the big block Camaro with slicks gets a tiny bit of a holeshot on him, but still loses to the VW): 10 second run (http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/vinperfnet/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilder files/kurtvscamaro.mpeg)

Here's another 10 second run in a different street legal (and on street tires) VW Bug. Think your musclecar has what it takes??? : Another 10 second run (http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/vinperfnet/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilder files/koenigpart210sec.mpeg)

Here's another bug with license plates running a 10.5 second run on street tires. Guys, this stuff is just too common. 10.5 second run (http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/vinperfnet/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilder files/misbehavin.mpeg)

Here's Clyde Berg's Super Street Bug running an 11 second quarter mile with a few big wheelies at the start. Bug s hook up hard, and this is the proof: Clyde Berg video (http://www.draglist.com/Movies/Clips/clydwhbig.asf)



Now, as to the Cleveland vs Windsor debate...The Cleveland has better heads, but the Windsor is more compact. The Windsor ends up getting used more often these days due to that and the fact that it's more available, but the Cleveland is still a stout combination for drag racing. It's overshadowed, however by the availability of factory racing parts for the 429/460, which uses a larger version of the cleveland canted valve heads on a block good for over 600 cid in stock form, or over 700 cid in widebore form. The factory 514 cid crate engine is putting out almost 650 hp as it arrives out of the box (and with the new Root heads, that figure is going to be over 700 hp out of the box, for under $8k total, which makes building a Cleveland really kind of a last resort, as the 429-460-514 fits in the same space).

posted by  ChrisV

It is apparent that too many people like to compare completely different vehicles, whether it be the muscleheads doggin the smaller cars or the other way around, but the fact of the matter is with all things equal, the larger the engine the more power, and the lower the 1/4mile times. Yes a 4 cylinder in a 1700lb car can beat a 8 cylinder in a 4000lb car no doubt about it, but a race prepped n/a 4cyl would be decimated by a race prepped n/a 8cyl, because of the amount of horsepower attainable from a 8 is far higher than a 4, and a 10 or 12 cylinder has even more potential. As for the whole wheelie thing, thats no big deal doin a wheelie in a REAR engined vehicle, slap a V8 between the wheels of a classic muscle car all 4000lbs and you could probably wheelie all the way down the highway...

posted by  Integer8

No one disputed this. The response was to the idiots who feel that a car like the VW beetle cannot be fast. In fact, unlike MOST modern imports, the venerable air cooled Beetles wer going fast for cheap decades ago, and have not gotten slower. While it IS easier to make a large engine go faster (look at my responses in the American vs Import muscle thread), the fact remains that it's just as easy, and just as likely, to build or run against a 10 second VW Bug with license plates and no slicks as it is to run against a muscle car that goes that fast. niceride80 was saying it's unfare to compare a modded VW to a modded musclecar. In truth, stock musclecars on average have ben 14 second rides, and it costs to make them 11 or 10 second rides. On a speed per dollar ratio, VWs are just as cheap to go fast as teh larger musclecars, which is where the point comes in. In a streetable car, unlike most modern imports, it is cost effective to use a VW bug to go fast the same way it is cost effective to make a V8 muslcecar go fast. people who don't realize that are doomed to watch VW taillights zooming ahead of them... ;)

Reminding people of that is NOT putting down domestic muscle. If you knew more about the cars I've built over the last 2 and a half decades, you'd KNOW I don't put down american muscle. (Hell, I've caught flack from import fanatics that don't like the fact that I put American engines in imports...)




Of course. Like the old Hemi Under Glass Barracuda.

The point was addressing a previous series of comments, which you would have known about if you had actually read the entire thread.

posted by  ChrisV

Integer8, I think you are one of a few thats seems to make sense around here with your quotes. Good on you mate.

posted by  lucas

Ha, ha, ha. I just noticed this trash for a response. "The 351 Cleveland dominated NHRA Pro Srock drag racing before it was banned from Nascar". When did NASCAR start making the rules for the NHRA? If you're going to quote something at least get it right. :banghead:

You really need to read what it is you're writing. You've jumped around so much you've gotten yourself lost.

posted by  vwhobo

VWhobo, I was referring to the period of time that the Cleveland dominated NHRA Pro stock drag racing in the period before it was banned for nascar. Refer to the website listed mate. You seem to argue the point with everyone in the forum. Fact is that you back your quotes with nothing. How can anyone take you seriously when you compare a 4 cylinder in a 1700lb car agianst an V8 in a 4000lb car. Your quotes are amusing and baffle everyone as they make no sense. Please refer to the websites. What are you going to compare next? Your VW with a Pro stocker?

posted by  lucas

It's right there, copied from the URL he posted. It has to be true. I read it on the internet :laughing:


You remember the 351 Cleveland don't you? It dominated NHRA Pro Stock Drag Racing before the dawn-of-the-mountain-motor was effectively banned from NASCAR for the sin of breathing "too well." It unleashed terror on the streets in it's "Boss 351" Mustang trim.

posted by  lectroid

Thanks Lectroid!
I wish VWhobo would follow your example!

posted by  lucas

You are another one that "really is that stupid". Here is an undisputable fact. Just because soneone has a website and writes something on it doesn't make it a fact. Read your quote again, but this time answer my question. WHEN DID NASCAR START MAKING THE RULES FOR THE NHRA? Here, I'll answer it for you. They didn't.

You are the one who is amusing and baffling. I have never compared my Bug, or any VW for that matter to the speed of an NHRA Pro-Stock. On the other hand I have said that it runs consitent high 10's in the quarter mile. Now if you're too ignorant to believe that can be done, well that's your problem. As for anyone taking me seriously "when you compare a 4 cylinder in a 1700lb car agianst an V8 in a 4000lb car", just ask the guys in Mustangs, Camaros, etc who get dusted by my little, slow Volkswagen if they take me seriously. You need to get away from your computer and into the real world sonny.

THINK, TYPE, SUMIT.

posted by  vwhobo

lectroid was as we English like to say, "ripping the piss out of you"... and why do you keep quoting Widowmaker2k?

posted by  snoopewite

See the first sentence of my last post. :banghead:

posted by  vwhobo

if you infact knew ANYTHING savage68, you would know that vw make the most powerful production engine to date, the W16 in the bugatti veyron 4/16.. go read my post in the "fastest production car" thread... it takes the car to the more scary side of 280 mph STANDARD!!! , YES MORON, STANDARD!!! NOW STOP INSULTING VW'S OR VWHOBO, CHRISV, SJ, BAV, MYSELF AND NUMEROUS OTHER WILL SHOW YOU UP FOR THE PREPUBECENT LITTLE SH!T YOU ARE, OH, WAIT, YOU HAVE BEEN DOING THAT PERFECTLY WELL ON YOUR OWN UP UNTILL NOW... oh, i almost forgot, that "fugly" VW u refered to is not vwhobo's, if you did some reading you'll also find out why...one last point.. my mate has an air cooled 1700lbs 450bhp 2.5 litre n/a flar four in his bug, not only would he waste your beloved muscle car, he also wastes MODERN porsches and ferraris alike. and don't ask for a 1/4 mile time because it's never run a 1/4 mile at over 2/3 throttle without breaking something... remember; make your point, give an example and explain it.. don't jus make it up when you have absolutely no evidence. oh, savage68, what exactly are your credentials may i ask?

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

:orglaugh: That'll be why lucas thanked lectroid as well :tard:

posted by  snoopewite

VWhobo don't compare you modified VW with a stock Mustang or Camaro. How would a modified VW go against say an equally modified LS7 that weighs 4000lbs. That website I stated was reputable. I never said Nascar makes rules for NHRA. I stated that the Clevo dominated pro stock drag racing in the era before it was banned from Nascar. No one stated that Nascar made rules for NHRA. Don't believe anything I say or anyone for that fact. Truth is that even the Chev fans know what a great race motor the Clevo was and still is. I never did deny that your VW is capable of high 10's which is a damn quick time in anyones language. That is serioulsy quick and yes you would beat alot of these V8's even heavily modified ones. Nor did I ever try to compare two completely different motors or vehicles. Since you have some idea of modifications in regards to VW's share it with the people who want that type of info in the forum. This forum is about sharing info and ideas not about silly debates that lack substance.

posted by  lucas

Okay, you're right, I give up. Answer this question. Name one NHRA Pro-Stock championship won by a car running a 351 Cleveland. If they did in fact "dominate pro stock drag racing in the era before it was banned from Nascar" that should be VERY easy. Please, the floor is all yours, go ahead and add some substance.

posted by  vwhobo

[QUOTE=lucas]VWhobo don't compare you modified VW with a stock Mustang or Camaro. How would a modified VW go against say an equally modified LS7 that weighs 4000lbs. . . That is serioulsy quick and yes you would beat alot of these V8's even heavily modified ones. QUOTE]

A bit contradictory, aren't we?

You also have no right bringing an LS7 into this discussion. You show me ONE that was factory installed in a vehicle. Since it never was, it's not a fair "starting point" since it is already a heavily modified motor.

A better comparison would be starting with a truck 454 v. a T-IV VW (both lo-po "big blocks"). Take both, build them evenly (part for part or dollar for dollar), put the 454 in your GM of choice, the T-IV based VW in the bug of your choice (both full body cars) and I bet the VW would walk all over the GM. You can't get around the fact that a full body bug weighs 1650 lbs.

Once you get into unlimited mods and rail jobs, sure the VW won't be near the V8 on the track. But within the realm of "daily drivers" or "street/strip" cars, the ACVW is the best base for a drag car.



For a driver, the 351W is better. It's lighter and has more low-end. For all out top end the 4v Cleveland wins out (but lethargic is an understatement for what it is below about 3500 RPM). The 2v cleveland is a nice driver, but weighs a ton. However, mod for mod the C will outlast the W. The C is a big block masquerading as a small block and has quite a bit of meat to it. You could also get them in the four bolt flavor while the W is only a 2 bolt. The highest output factory 351W was the W H.O. that did 280 hp, the 4V cleveland did 330 (around 6000 RPM). The W is a tall deck 302 while the C is a short deck 400 (actually the 400 is a tall deck C).

This thread was great seeing as how I do ACVW's and Fords :clap:

Justin

posted by  Hoxviii

Thank you for your support, just don't expect these people to be swayed by the facts.

posted by  vwhobo

Hobo, do you know what the Lauffer's full body car is down to?

Justin

posted by  Hoxviii

According to cal-look.com its 9.393 @ 146.89. That as they say is smokin'.

posted by  vwhobo

http://www.mustangcentral.net/mcforums/images/smilies/eek2.gif

posted by  SuperJew

Totally.

posted by  Hoxviii

After reading the post, as owning a 351c i think its a good engine and i never had that many problems rebuilding it. It didnt take me years to find parts and years to fix it. Its a very good motor and its worth gettings, after reading many magizines the windsor seems to need much more money put into it but im not always sure. I spent 3000$ and over 1000 hours to rebuild my car body work and engine it weve done a desktop dyno and it hits about 450hp. The engine does have preformance parts but im thinking about getting 4 valve per cylinder heads for it. I read how you guys argued about the VW and so forth. Is that VW a race only car or a street car or street strip? See i dont like when people compare pure strip cars to street or street/strip. Also realizing how much money someone puts into thier car is also a aspect. Does the person have deep pockets or are they putting slim pickens into thier car. That VW has some major work put into it in the picture just by looking at it and it looks nice. Im not a big "Bug" person myself but weight to horsepower ratio makes a huge differnce in the world of racing and that little car is very light as you already said. I also wouldnt want to be in a crash in that thing ;) . I have a 71 Mustang that My father, brother and i have worked on for about 8 months from all beat up car to a pretty decent street strip car.

posted by  Xelos

1. The car in the picture is not mine for reasons of security and privacy.

2. If you actually read the thread, you'd know that my car is not only a street/strip car but is a genuine daily driver. Deep pockets are not in my vocabulary. The entire car was built on budget of $4k but at this point I probably have closer to $5k into it. Again, that is the entire car. How much do you have into your engine alone?

By the way, Desktop Dyno's are great if you're racing computers.

posted by  vwhobo

Maybe im just taking it wrong but that post sounded pretty darn rude. Anyways if you read my post i put 3,000$ into the car. I wasn't saying you put alot of money into your car, you suspect im trying to fight you at everything. Im not attacking you in anyway so you dont need to # anything. Desktop Dynos are not bad if you know how to use them. They are usually pretty accurate but cannot compare to a real Dynometer. Again, try to sound a little more friendly but that could just be me...

posted by  Xelos

Here is a tip to take to the bank. Don't come here on your second post and call me rude or how to act. You are the one who interjected your opinion into this thread. If you want to identify rude people, lets's talk about new members who start posting without introducing themselves. Do you know anyone who fits that description? I do.

posted by  vwhobo

You sounded rude to me.. like i was arguing with you.

posted by  Xelos

Also i would like to note the name of this forum isnt Hi im introducing myself its 351 Cleveland vs. Windsor. I was posting my opinion and you didn't need to jump on top of me for it, and im pretty sure i did kinda introduce myself in my first post.

posted by  Xelos

Like you're doing now, again. Go find the "Introduce Yourself" section and use it.

posted by  vwhobo

Im not arguing with a jerk off, man id love to see the info on your awesome VW.

posted by  Xelos

No, you're not arguing with a jerk off, you are a jerk off. Now, if you want to play nice go introduce yourself. If you continue line of discussion you will be dealt with. Your choice.

posted by  vwhobo

Real quickly, these VW's you guys run and know of, if they are any louder than the way they came stock, then they are not a daily driver, at least not in my state MA, 1 Db over and your no longer streetable your race only, and a 750bhp VW is definately going to be louder than stock... also in the US the only vw bugs to be 1700 lbs were convertibles so if you know of a bug thats 1700lbs full bodied, its been highly modified and is race only...the website here is where i got the info because as you can see the restrictions imposed by the us government on safety demanded increased weight...and any car after the 70's require emssion testing...
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~jfrohwei/vwac/tables.html

posted by  Integer8

Here's a tip Bub, two actually. Stick to Fords, you seem to have some knowledge of them. Tip two, as for the full bodied bug that doesn't weigh 1700 lbs, what about the ones right there on the chart YOU provided. Perhaps reading lessons are in order. My car, while not purely stock, has carpeting, a stereo, a Magnaflow muffler (the carbs ar louder than the exhaust) and a full cage. And I drive it almost every day including to and from the track with slicks on the roof rack (sometimes). I could make it lighter but chose not too.

As for the 750 hp VW you can take that up with the person who typed it.

posted by  vwhobo

I stand corrected ill give you that much about the full bodied weight, as for the legality of your vehicle if you in ANY way can say that it is the SAME or quieter than stock with a magnaflow cause i know it cant be, why you may ask simple...
"With my sound meter less than a foot from the blackboard, the highest reading I got was only 83 dB! That's the same as the meter indicates inside a VW "Super Beetle" at 55 mph, or on my front porch when my next-door neighbor mows his lawn." (http://www.eskimo.com/~smallnet/JoeArticles/EngineNoise.html)
and now for the kicker...
All tests via an independent lab
All tests @ 15” wc
Magnaflow, 82db at idle, 91 at 2,000 rpm, 114db at WOT.
(http://forums.stangnet.com/archive/index.php/t-392314)
and your going to tell me that your exhaust isnt louder than stock?
Now let me remind you that the first test was done at 55 MPH making the Db higher than stock for a super beetle, which if you look at the table i posted before only puts out 60HP, and as you should know increasing power increases sound output, unless of course you turbocharge an application in which case the turbo quiets the exhaust...o and dont attempt to make a comparison between the sizes of engines in the two tests i could find, namely the beetle being a 4 and the mustang being an 8 cylinder because size doesnt matter when it comes to sound coming from a muffler all you have to do is listen to the next Harley with its 1.6 liter engine giving off 100's of Db under acceleration...

posted by  Integer8

1. You keep quoting some imaginary law from the state of I don't give a f*ck where. Where I live my car is 100% street legal and fairly quiet to boot.

2. Let's put you theory to the test. Let's compare a Lexus LS 430 and a 1972 Beetle. I think we can agree that the Lexus at around 290 hp produces substantially more horsepower than the 60 hp Beetle. Both engines are naturally aspirated. So using your (confused) way of thinking the Lexus should be a whole bunch louder than the Beetle. Well is it? Don't think so Slick, and neither will anyone else. How's that for a kicker.

If you had a bit more real world experience instead of getting all of your information of the internet, you might be closer to being correct. Also giving me decible numbers for a Mustang with a Magnaflow and comparing that to a Bug with a Magnaflow is some serious apples and oranges. As I said before, stick to talking about Fords, you almost sound like you know what you're talking about.

posted by  vwhobo

Oh yeah to back up the 351C as dominating NHRA events heres a good example

7. Until John Force surpassed him in 2001, racer number seven Bob Glidden owned more NHRA national event victories than any other racer in the history of the sport. Bob grabbed 111 points in our contest, and almost certainly would have finished higher had he not retired in 1995. At times in the 1980s, Glidden had his fellow Pro Stock competitors covered by a tenth, even when SHUTTING OFF his Fairmont so he wouldn't adversely affect the weight breaks assigned to his dominant 351 Cleveland Ford.
(http://www.draglist.com/stories/SOD%20Dec%202001/SOD-120301.htm)
hmm more victories than any other racer in the ENTIRE HISTORY of the sport until 2001 all with a 351C....hmmm not to bad eh?

posted by  Integer8

aparantly you forgot to take into account the 30+ years of technology that come along with the Lexus, gee let me thing overhead cams low friction rotating assembly, CATALYTIC CONVERTERS AND mufflers, ECU controlled fuel injection... should i continue...

posted by  Integer8

That is nothing more than a pathetic attempt at twisting the truth. Bob Glidden did in fact win some Pro Stock events with a 351C. He did not win all or even most of his events with a 351 of any kind, or do you want us to also beleive he won all those races with a Fairmaont? Try again weenie or is this an attempt at moving away from the subject at hand?

posted by  vwhobo

MGL- Massachussetts General Law

Just because a car is street legal in one state doesnt mean it is in another, which means that if you were to drive to Mass with a modded exhaust youd have to either turn around or get a trailer...so unless a vehicle is street legal everywhere dont claim on a forum that it is street legal at all...

CHAPTER 90. MOTOR VEHICLES AND AIRCRAFT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

MOTOR VEHICLES
Chapter 90: Section 16 Offensive or illegal operation of motor vehicles

Section 16......No person shall operate a motor vehicle on any way which motor vehicle is equipped (1) with a muffler from which the baffle plates, screens or other original internal parts have been removed and not replaced; or (2) with an exhaust system which has been modified in a manner which will amplify or increase the noise emitted by the exhaust.......

posted by  Integer8

No apparently YOU forgot the march of technology. YOU are the one who said an engine that makes more power will be louder. YOU are the one one who said size doesn't matter. YOU are the one who just keeps typing bullsh*t and isn't smart enough or man enough to admit it.

Just for a minute let's assume you're right, which is a long stretch. The OE muffler design on a Beetle is about 60 years old. The Magnaflow design is 10-15 years old. Using your march of technology train of thought, the Magnaflow is a 45-50 year newer design. So why couldn't it be quieter (and I never said it was) than the OE muffler?

Every single word you type you prove how little you know and how much less you care to learn. I suggest you crawl back in your hole and attempt to impress someone who gives a rat's ass about what you have to say.

By the way, my car is legal in 50 states as long as it is legal in the state it's registered in. I still don't give a damn about the vehicle codes where you live.

posted by  vwhobo

Well all you can do is ask for proof about street legality, now ill ask you for some proof, i would like you to prove that your VW is streetlegal in my state, and fire up some data from a Decibal test run on your car, ive given you plenty of data its your turn....

posted by  Integer8

You have given data that proves nothing. What you fail to see is that you are running in circles grabbing for anything you think will make you look correct. So far it hasn't worked.

Read what I said moron, "By the way, my car is legal in 50 states as long as it is legal in the state it's registered in". I can drive through Massf*cksh*ts all day long, and until I register it there it's legal. Go find your hole and inhabit it. You are boring everyone, annoying me and wasting bandwidth with your drivel.

posted by  vwhobo

:pop:

posted by  SuperJew

Yeah, hand me some so I can shove it down his throat.. maybe we'll get lucky and he'll choke on it. :banghead:

posted by  vwhobo

I will cede in my argument respectfully, it apparantly recently last year october, states are changing their laws about Db ratings acceptable for aftermarket exhaust, Maine and California to be specific have changed their laws so that a vehicle must be less than 95 Db rather than being less than or equal to the stock muffler which the law was previously, hmm maybe i should move MA laws suck...

posted by  Integer8

I have to step in here and disagree on this point. I live right by the MO/IL border. My truck is street legal in Missouri, but if I want to drive it in Illinois it has to be trailered. The tires stick out to far (if i threw on flares I'd be good) and I don't meet the bumper standards. In Missouri your bumper can be 26" off the ground, it's 24" in Illinois. I got pulled over for the tires and the bumper was a secondary offense. Cop was a HP and even got out a measuring tape to measure the bumper height :cussing: .

Justin

posted by  Hoxviii

Just because you got a ticket, doesn't mean you deserved it or that you did anything illegal. Traffic tickets have little to do with public safety and everything to do with subsidizing municipal budgets.

Did you take the ticket to court or just pay up? I can 99.9% guarantee you that if you went to court it would have been thrown out and if it wasn't then it would be on appeal. If a car meets the motor vehicle codes for the state in which it is registered then it is legal for use on public roads throughout the US.

posted by  vwhobo

Back to the original topic...the 351 Cleveland is by far a stronger engine then the Windsor unless you have deep pockets. The #1 reason for this is the heads: the 351 cleveland has BOSS style heads with huge, canted valves and large ports. If you've ever seen a regular 302 or 351 windsor you can immeadiatley tell the difference.

If you can't find parts for you Cleveland, well you've got issues. I for one can go down to autozone and get the parts by the next day at latest. Manifolds and heads go up all the time on ebay. Cams are made by lunati, crane, comp...just to name a few. CHI makes aftermarket 3V and 4V cylinder heads which will easily keep up with an aftermarket windsor setup. If you're looking for even more high performance I believe AFI makes heads too. There is a rumor edelbrock is planning on making Cleveland heads in the next year or two...but that's just rumor.

I built up my Cleveland pretty easy...lets see $300 at the machine shop to have the block cleaned, new cam bearings, and the heads worked on. New cam was only $100 on ebay. Intake manifold was $150. Carburetor was $100. 14" Air cleaner was $25. Basic rebuild kit was about $250. By my math that's less then $1,000. This easily jacks it up to the mid 300 horsepower level. Good luck trying to get a Windsor to that level with changing out stall convertors, doing headwork, going with a solid cam, etc.

I'm not saying Windsor is a bad engine but the Cleveland has much more potential. Now if you want to spend a few grand on aftermarket heads, well that changes the pictures doesn't it?

posted by  kingCleveland

Let me step in here real quick. I don't know the Db laws for california, but if it suppose to be less than 95 Db, there are alot of illegal civics and other rice-burners running aroung that are reg. in Cali, that are a lot louder than 95 Db.

posted by  Coffin Type R

Can't outright disagree with a damn thing you say, but I do have a question. How is "changing out stall convertors" going to affect the amount of horsepower? Inquiring minds want to know.

posted by  vwhobo

I suppose we can assume from your lack of response that you don't have a clue and that it just sounded really good. I bet you're a legend in your own mind. :roll:

posted by  vwhobo

Or maybe some of us have to work :doh:. Maybe if you weren't an asshole people would listen to you more.

Stall converter has nothing to do with horsepower...but has everything to do with cam choice and head. In order to make more horsepower you'll need to switch to a cam with more duration/lift which will move the powerband further up the RPM range. Also Cleveland 4V heads are notorious for having intake ports TOO big that require filling...raising the stall (and thus the intake draw/velocity) helps this considerably.

posted by  kingCleveland

That's not what you said but it's at least a mostly correct answer to a different question. And that's why you'll find most 351C's are built with 2V heads. Of course they're getting harder and harder to find.

By the way, calling me names does nothing except show your limited intelligence.

posted by  vwhobo

Insulting my intelligence isn't going to work...if you haven't noticed so far everything I've said is right. I'm not the one who calls people idiots and flames them for not responding on a dime.

What I said in the original post is that for a Windsor to match a Cleveland you will need to run a larger and probably different style of cam (roller or solid). In order to run a larger cam you will NEED to run a higher stall. If you have to switch out stall then you will probably need different gears too which will cost even more money. All of this is at the detriment of streetability although it is still very possible.

What I'm saying is you can easily buildup a 400 horespower Cleveland that is very streetable whereas you will sacrifice either (1) streetability or (2) money for a Windsor to reach the same level.

posted by  kingCleveland

No, what you said in your first post that raised the question is;


Then in your second post you said;


You corrected and/or clarified the statement you made in the first post so that it now makes sense. As for you second post, there is no doubt that is one way to make more horsepower. However if you build the engine for more torque and do it the right way you'll also have more horsepower at a lower level. By doing so you won't have to change the TC or gear ratio. The problem with that is that with the Cleveland, because it's only real advantage is the way the heads breath, you're almost forced to make the power on the top end only.

And by the way, everything you've said may be right, but it is not entirely correct. It's just one side of the story.

posted by  vwhobo

I'm not really sure how you could build the engine for more torque AND horsepower without stroking and boring it. Most horsepower is going to be made on the top end anyways. A better top end makes for a more efficient and powerful engine. Now if you stroked a Cleveland out to say, 408, and put the 4V heads on it that engine could easily make 450 streetable horsepower...maybe 500 with a mild stall. The same could be done to a Windsor but it would not benefit as much due to it's (relatively) poor flowing heads.

Edit: The only other option I can see for more torque/hp is forced induction which would also take care of the ports being too big.

posted by  kingCleveland

The only reason I can give you don't see how is because you apparently don't understand the relationship between torque and horsepower or how they are achieved. Try reading this and see if it becomes any clearer to you.

http://www.car-forums.com/talk/showthread.php?t=1318

posted by  vwhobo

The article didn't really say anything I haven't. Torque is determined by the bore/stroke of the engine and the efficiency of the heads. Assuming you've already maximized the efficiency of the heads to a practical limit and have matched the cam, intake, and exhaust to the setup the only other option for making additional power is either (1) stroke/bore or (2) forced induction, both which essentially increase the displacement.

posted by  kingCleveland

Okay, all I can say at this point is you must have read a different article than I refered you to. By the way, forced induction does not essentially or any other way increase displacement, it increases volumetric efficiency.

posted by  vwhobo

Let me introduce myslef, I'm Shane. this will be my first post.

hello..

I should have waited to make my rude comments to vwhobo on my second post. but you can still read it as I was quoted on a reply below.

The point i was trying to make was there is no need to be a dick. I was one for no reason but to make a point and the feedback is almost always negative. if somebody doesnt know something, educate them in a way that isnt rude. They will be alot more receptive. If they still argue with you , ignor them..

posted by  Power-by-Ford

I do actually find point D to be funny personally.. Anyway, this is not a good way to start Shane.. The moderators will come and get you for that.. But seriously though what is your view on the Cleveland Vs Winsor battle? Which do you consider the best? And can we see in writing why you think VW is spewing BS? It'll make for an intresting point if its true..

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

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Yes...it would be interesting to see some intelligent posting contrary to vwhobo's instead of you spewing bs. Instead of doing the third-grade-name-calling-bit...post some proof.

btw...Moderators cannot control bs posts...we can only call it like it is.
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posted by  BavarianWheels

I just got tired of reading VW post's. He made a comment about intro's to a guy on page 9, the mods can boot me and I will be fine with that. vwhobo posts were rude at best when people were just putting up opinions.

My take on the cleveland and windsor deal is this.

Aftermarket has got the windsor covered for sure as we see it here in the states, but you would be suprised at how much stuff is available for the cleveland, you just have to look outside our US of A.. The Aussies have awesome alloy heads and intakes that are being sold and developed as we speak. They made the 351C into the 80's over there as well as the 302 Cleveland. Thats right, a 302c. short throw, long rod, same block.

as for power, well, that depends. The 4v is way to much for the street, the 2v is good and the aussie 2v is great. But for all out racing, I will put my cleveland up against any of my windsors. It revs higher, faster and with alot more punch, but not so hot down low. Lets not talk about strokers and such because that is not were this was aimed. Using stock dimensions the cleveland has alot more potential for making big power, but it loses in the Cylinder strength, not in the bottom end. Thin walls will limit you for sure. I have 2 Clevelands and 5 Windsors, I would take either one, but I can make alot more power with a piston and cam change in the cleveland than I can in a windsor.. It's all in the HEADS.

The highest factory rated Cleveland was 330hp in the 71 Boss 351, period.

Shane

posted by  Power-by-Ford

Boot you for what...being an outright idiot? We have many. You are now an honorary member of the idiot club here.

If you can't deal with the thinking that an introduction or a simple 'hello'...then you may not like your stay here. No one is twisting your arm to keep visiting here.
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posted by  BavarianWheels

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:::when with this damn thread die?:::
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posted by  BavarianWheels

when people like you stop posting..

posted by  Power-by-Ford

Well vwhobo, let me tell you something. My dads buddy has a sister that’s knows a guy that worked with someone with a garage and he was a racer and NASCAR blaa blaa NHRA blaa blaa……can beat your car any day.
I figure for my first post I’d jump in with both feet. Keep in mind that I’m not a professional racer/mechanic/car guru nor do I lay claim to be. First of all as for the 351 W vs. 351 C issue. They are both great engines. Years ago I owned a ’71 Mach-1 with a 351C and 2V heads with an aftermarket 4bbl intake. Man I miss that car. I was hooked on Cleveland’s. I now own a 351 Windsor and I’m just as happy with it. Easy to work on, and parts are plentiful. I’d say which ever engine you get the best deal on. If money isn’t an issue I’d go for the Cleveland. In all fairness I haven’t priced Cleveland parts lately (no need to). It seams the biggest issue is with the heads. I remember that the Clevor (no sure if that’s spelled right) was the way to go back in the day for the W motors, but technology has caught up and aftermarket heads for the W engine flow great. I believe KingCobra (nice boss) mentioned cost for the heads as being a prohibitive factor for the W, but he purchased from EBay for some good deals on some of his parts and you can find deals for the W engine there as well. I’m not going to compare a Boss 351 with any stock Windsor, but I have seen Bosses spanked on the street (not often) by cars I thought couldn’t do it. Some of you folks are saying in one breath that they can build a Cleveland to make gobs of power on the street and I’m sure they can, but their next post dogs someone out for trying to compare their modified car to stock muscle cars. The only thing that matters when it comes to racing is who’s the fastest, everything else is bitching. And I’ve race a few VDubbs that smoked me, and they sounded a lot like all the other bugs in town at idle (annoying lol). There is no replacement for displacement except a good diet. Weight is a real killer in racing. HP to weight is a dominating factor and at 1600 lbs or so it’s tuff to beat a 150 hp car if you’re hauling around 4,000 lbs and only have 330 hp to push it down the track. Again, in all fairness that same 330 hp engine in a stripped ’85 mustang would be a different story. As far as legality goes, if it’s not going to be driven in Ca or where ever the laws are stricter I don’t see how that argument would apply. And if it is driven in those states it is required to comply with state safety laws. Bumper height and tires protruding out from the fenders are safety violations in some states, and the citations are valid. That being said, that was rather petty and I’m sure the local constable could have spent his time more wisely, but that will teach you to take the krispy kream shortcut. Have I missed anyone?
P.S. SpElll check poeple.
Aaron in Tacoma
1967 Falcon w/1984 351 H.O. W (straight out of a van)
210HP from the factory, WOW. Look out Kingcobra :laughing:

posted by  my67falcon

Ahem...vwhobo is no longer here...

All that for nothing.

:screwy: :banghead:
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posted by  BavarianWheels

Story of my life. A day late and $2.75 short. (inflation) :doh:

posted by  my67falcon

Hello Everyone,

Nice to see some of the information here is fairly usefull. I have a 68 Mercury Cougar with a 351C 2V with an edlebrock intake manifold that lets me put on a 4bbl. Flow master dual exhast along with shift kit in my tranny.

Been told by 2 experts in the field I have a non standard cam set in the engine, I have to go through the maintence records and see what they are because I have no clue. Engine was rebuilt only 2 and a half years ago yet the bastards did a piss poor job on a head gasket. Blew that out a few weeks ago.

So I've torn apart the engine with the help of a friend who is a motor head and this is what I've found out.

PArts for a 351C vary. You have the 2v, 4v, BOSS, COBRA JET, and Modified. Once you get past which one you have and pound it into the head of the person your talking to you can get your parts without problem.

Prices don't seem all that bad in comparison with the Windsor in my experience. Was pricing out heads, valves and other things just in case.

As it was I neeed to hard seat and replace my exhaust valves. That with pressure testing, shaving comes to about 500 bucks.

Now I know I'm a bit off topic here. But since this is a good thread for it.

From the information I've found my stock 351C 2V has about 315hp. Right or wrong?

Adding my Edlebrock intake manifold blah blah 2v model with a Edlebrock 4bbl gives me another 75 hp. Not sure what my cam set gives me. Not sure if my exhaust gives me anything.

But for my 68 Cougar XR7 I'll be more than happy. From my pespective the engine seems to really open up once I hit 40 From 40-100 goes faster than the 0-40 imho. The shift kit kicks in and the car just lunges forward like nothing I've driven before.

But hey, I'm not a racer, I'm just a kid who had dad say no to buying a 67 Cougar 17 years ago. Finally got one. Love the lines on the car and the 351C inside. I've always heard A W was a better truck engine vs. the C. Again it'a a matter of perspective imho. But for pure power the C vs the W does seem to outperfomr it. PArts are there, not as many, but they are there and reasonably priced.

posted by  Patton

315 would be gross, modern figures are quoted in SAE and DIN

posted by  cinqyg

Well we had the Falcon XY GTHO here in 1970/71 that put out 380bhp standard. It was the fastest production car in the world at the time.

posted by  Wally

While it isn't exactly BS...a basic misconception is that the Cleveland has a weak bottom end or that it has a weak oiling system or many other supposed weaknesses. Every engine has weaknesses when they are pushed beyond the reasonable design limitations (compromises) of both material and structural strengths.

My 351 Cleveland engine makes 608 HP. It is stroked to 393 CID and is far from stock. Does this mean that it has a weak bottom end? What constitutes a weak bottom end versus a strong one?

The Cleveland is somewhat harder to fit into tight places. The heads are massive and having that much bulk atop an engine means less room for exhaust manifolds. Everything having anything to do with automobiles is a series of compromises.

No, there was never a US domestic factory rated power of 380-something for a Cleveland. Most of the "high performance" variants here were rated at 335 HP.

http://www.azpower.com/red/images/jpg/dyno_pull_6.jpg
...can you say 608 HP?

Whether or not the Windsor is somehow "better" than a Cleveland is really a matter of opinion, and more than anything else the history behind these engines--and their production facilities--sheds some light on it.

The factory Cleveland heads were not exceptional in any particular way except that they are very nearly a copy of a big block Chevy head shrunk down to fit on a small block Ford.

The classic "poor bottom end performance" from having TOO much of a generally accepted "good thing" was true in theory and oftentimes in practice with the Cleveland, but many 4V Cleveland engines run very well throughout their entire RPM range as a result of their owner's understanding them and how to properly use them.

Part of the difficulty in parts availability is from the lack of a long history of building the engines. The 351C was built in the US from 1970 to 1973 and during a period of time where aftermarket parts were largely bolt-ons and cylinder heads were not really part of that category in those days!

Australia Ford plants continued to produce the C in volume until 1989 (or thereabouts, I believe). Australia also had a unique offering that is known as a 302C, which is basically a 3" stroke crank in a 351 Cleveland engine block.

With only 3 years of production volumes in the US, engine parts are rather scarce in comparison to the Windsor, which is basically any of the 260-351W variants produced from about 1963 to somewhere around 1991 (I'm no Windsor's dates expert). Windsor people "in the know" also know that the "preferred" W heads are the C9 and D0 castings that are also very scarce due to their relatively short production term.

http://www.azpower.com/red/images/jpg/engine_3.jpg
...every part new or readily available used, though the blocks are becoming rarer and rarer, probably because I'm hording 11 of them in my storage!

If anything is weak about the Cleveland, it is the thin wall block castings and consistently "sloppy" manufacturing/production of them. However, one can easily argue that it is NOT the FoMoCo's engineering department's responsibility to ensure that you can race a production car engine to 2-3 times its factory rated power levels.

In summary, vwhobo, it might be wiser to question the statements you've made about the Cleveland to truly understand whether you're simply promoting the misinformation you say you want to stop.

My Cleveland was built in about 3 months, of which most of the time was waiting in line at the machine shop. Parts abound for the Cleveland. Are they more expensive? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes no. A couple of days ago I bought a brand new full billet timing chain and gear set on eBay for $59.50...to go into my "next" Cleveland engine. Brand new alloy cylinder heads exist for the Cleveland at a price comparable to those available for the Windsor. The only thing that you can't really buy new any more is a block, and with the relatively easy interchange between the SVO blocks and the fact that crankshaft makers all make cranks for them, a Dart or SVO block are the way to go for serious output anyway.

This year I predict that a factory Cleveland engine block is going to win the coveted Engine Master's Challenge and will make at least 750 HP using a carburetor and 92 octane unleaded gasoline. That's a fairly tough number for any engine, regardless of maker.

http://www.azpower.com/red/images/jpg/engine_block_1.jpg
...not exactly a whimpy bottom end.

Enough of my mindless dribble. You have to ask yourself a question. What do you really know about a Cleveland engine that gives you any form of expertise on the subject? I don't mean to be rude or insensitive, but if you're really trying to prevent BS, what credentials are you using for your knowledge of the C engine?

If you know where to look, Cleveland parts are plentiful and not overly expensive. The worst Cleveland head (351M and 400) outperforms the best Windsor head (C9/D0)--qualifying statement follows--as produced by FoMoCo.

It is without a doubt that the Clevelanders know that given the SAME budget, that they can blow away a Windsor engine in every category except maybe total displacement feasible. My poor little 393 made more torque and total horsepower than a friend of mine's 408W and both engines were relatively similar in budget, compression ratio (11.25:1) and camshaft type (solid roller) and camshaft properties (lift/duration). The difference was really 3" mains versus 2.749" and his "new technology" alloy Edelbrock Victor (whichever the "good ones" are) heads compared to my used, $1000 Ford Motorsports A3 heads circa 1982.

I'm sure that this, my first post to this forum, has worn out my welcome here, but I hope that you won't have any difficulty accepting some of this at face value while noting much of it is just meant to be put forth as light humor and certainly not any kind of real or intentional attack on you as an individual.

:davis:

posted by  davis

Ive herd alot about the 351C and how much stock horsepower it has, but how much stock horse power does the 351W have? and also, im gunna drop one of those 2 engines into my 77 maverick that currently has a 250 in it and i was wondering which one would be a better choice

posted by  CantheMan

I also wanted to know if i could drop a GM 350 into my car with the same changes that i could do if i dropped a 351 into it, like motor mounts and crossmember and suspension, or if the 350 wouldnt fit the same as a 351 would

posted by  CantheMan

ok here's what ive experienced

I have a 70 Mach-1 with a 2v 351 cleveland its pumping out about 300 hp stock except for the intake and carb. My grandpa has a 70 coupe with a windsor thats barely pushing 250. If you want the cheaper fix go windsor. If you want overall better engine go cleveland. The clevelands will take more work since they are wider. I still dont know why anyone would want a windsore with that goofy head off to the side of the block. What's up with that why did they do that?

posted by  Shawnp182

stock information for yall

351 cleveland 2 barrel-250 hp stock
351 cleveland 4 barrel-300 hp stock
351 windsor-250 hp stock

i know someone who bored and stroked his cleveland to 409? cubic inches i think? and its pumping out about 650 hp the funny thing is he still drives it on the street!!!!! It gets about 8 miles ,on the highway, to the gallon! thats crazy

posted by  Shawnp182

finally someone knows what theyre talking about!!

MIne's a 351 2v cleveland with stock heads, stock hydraulic cam, edelbrock performer 2v intake which enables it to use a 4 barrel carb. My carb right now is a holley 600. Me and my dad are going to take the engine out this fall and put it on a stand and put a solid lift cam and new rocker arms lifters all that on there. New demon 750 cfm carb on there. Pretty much go with the 351 boss config. If anyone here didnt know that the boss wouldve been the fastest engine in 1970 if they wouldve made it in 70 not in 71.

posted by  Shawnp182

I just purchased a 351 Cleveland that I am going to rebuild into a street performer. I know there are alot of people in here who like the cleveland engine and even have one themselves. I need help finding performance part for my engine. Like where can I get headers? Every website I go to or magazine I look in only has headers for the windsor. Is there a company that make performance Cylinder heads for the cleveland or do I have to have the stock ones machined? I know I am getting my cam, push rods, and roller rockers from Comp Cams. And I already got a 4V 750 CFM Speed Demon Carb from Barry Grant (Demon Carbs). Now I just need to find a performance Crankshaft, pistons, intake manifold, and headers? Any advice would be great.
Thanks again.

posted by  68mustang

German members of US car clubs saying that generally clevelands are better, the best windsors (in German view) are the 1970's Lincoln (Ford) big block's


Do they right? :confused:

posted by  lutz

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No sense in drumming up very old arguments.
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posted by  bootie

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