yeh this is another one of those threads .. lol
but im thinkin of sellin my civic n gettin a new car.
so i just wanan see what u ppl think of these 2 cars..
model wise.. a non turbo , year 93+ Supra
and a yr2000+ type R
i LOVE da supra. but apparently its uncomfortable to sit in / drive. everyone i kno who has a supra has negative things to say about, and everyone (like me) who doesnt have one only has good things to say about it ! lol.
da type R however, ive only heard good things about and because of ma civic, ive become a honda man hehe.
atm, i wanna get da type R cause of da negative feedback for da Supra.. but i just wanted to get more info on this from ppl in this forum b4 i make my final decision..
if u hate both cars.. what would u get dats around their pricerangE?(20-25k aussie $$) bascially my criteria is sumthing that looks good,like 140kw+, and drives good. doesnt have to be uber powerful (but still powerful enough).
as far as modifications go.. im mainly just gonna put on an uber sound system, and a few visual upgrades.. performance will be da last thing on ma list. (i lost my licence for speeding, dun want to be tempted more! LOL)
can any of u direct me to a website that can show ppl opions on differnt cars as well as their stats? (stock)
Is there a reason why you say "da" all the time?
i have a supra and i have driven the MK2 and the MKIV and i think they are the most comfortable rides ive ever been in besides some guys Navigator.
go with "da" supra it has more stock power then an almost fully tuned Integra Typr R. But, if i was you i would save up a few more G's and get a 1995-1998 TT supra. Its one of the fastest cars in the import scene. the typeR has about 195 HP at 8000 RPM's while the supra has 320 HP at 5800 rpms. The supra Displacement is 1000 cc's higher so its more tunable. the supra engine is good up to 1000+hp...while the Type R is low 500 if your lucky. not only that the supra has the respect factor, the supra turns heads not an integra. so The supra looks better, performs better, and is an import icon. ight get the supra
I love integras so I would go with the integra, and supras are confortable.
OMG! Displacement size has nothing to do with being able to tune.
Displacement is the size of the motor, in simple terms bigger motor more possible power. But not in all cases. ITR motor size-N/A 1.8 liter <-> Supra motor size twin turbo 3.0 liter intercooler. You should not start to compare them they are two completely different cars. Oranges to apples.
As for the respect part of it... Honestly I think they both have the same respect from on lookers.
They both have a cult like following and Die hard enthusiasts, but a true sports car junkie would understand that they are both great cars from their time.
When was the last time you saw 100+ ITRs in the same place?
Displacement has a lot to do with tunability. For example if i put a the same CAI on a integra and the supra the supra would gain about 10HP while the Typr R would gain about 5. more Displacement increases how much horspower you can get out of parts.
Actually the B series engines have seen 1200-1400hp. WAY above 500hp.
Yea, why do you think V8's get about 35-40 hp out of a set of high flow headers, where a 4 cylinder gets about 15-20.
to all those who quote the ENTIRE previous post.......we just read
You got to be kinding me...
Thats not tuning. that has to do with the displacement... and it's in some sort of ratio. 8cyl has 300 CID 4cyl has 150 CID of course if you give more air to the bigger motor you will get more in return. Nothing to do with tuning... Tuning is changing the parameters that the engine goes by such as A/F ratio, MAP sensors, Mass air flow readings, Fuel pressure...
So if you put a turbocharger with 10psi in a V8 and one in a I4, than the
V8 will put out more torque/power?
So why do more people modify 4 cylinder engines? Would it cost more to have a 4cylinder engine to put the same power as a 8cylinder?
He didn't mean literally tuning an engine, he meant its ability to be
upgraded. Its like the whole tuner craze, its not a buch of kids running
around with diagnostic chips and air fuel maps, its a bunch of kids modding
their car in any way to get power out of it.
Im not a turbo expert, not even close, so I couldn't say for sure, ask wally or someone else about that.
And, yes, it usually does cost more money to mod a 4 cylinder to higher power than a V8. Its one of the muscle car guys biggest arguements against 4 cylinders:
"Why would you spend a lot of money just to make as much power as a stock 350?"
In truth, the reason most people do it is because of preference. Some do it cause they want a challenge, and others because they simply don't know any better. There are so many reasons why people mod 4 cylinders, some do it because they bought a four cylinder as a commuter then decided they wanted more power.
most ppl modify 4 cylinders cuz they are simply easier to come by, and a
lot cheaper to modify as well. if they break, then it wont be as expensive
as a V8 to repair.
about the turbo thing, well, if u put the same turbo on a V8 as u did on a 4 banger, then yea, the V8 will get more power out of it, and actually perform better with it since more cylinders will be helping spool it up (more consecutive firing).
But for drag racing, wouldnt you want to start with a cheap and light car like a CRX or a hatchback and then do a motor swap and turbo.. wouldnt that be more cheaper in overall power and power/weight ratio than V8's cuz V8's cost more and harded to modyfy the engine and the parts are more expensive?
Yes, it would. If the racing class you are in allows it!
See, this is the part people forget. In racing, there are different classes, and sometimes people actually have as much fun participating in one class as they would in any other!
Sometimes they like small cars with modded 4 cyls, sometimes they like slightly larger cars with modded V8s. Sometimes they buiild a particular car because -and this is important- that's the car they like! For example, I like the looks of an ITR better than the looks of a Supra, so all the Supra's supposed advantages might be nothing to me. To someone else, it's the other way around. To still another person, a classic MGB has more of what they are looking for. And someone else might prefer to build up an LS1 Trans Am.
Some people can build all the car themselves, and others have to pay someone else to do it. In those cases, a supposedly more expensive car to work on might end up being the cheaper car whan all is said and done as the owner didn't have to pay anyone to work on it...
ChrisV, But I mean like for full drag racing any car... For example you have $30,000 to get a car and race straight.. Wouldnt the most best way to use that 30000 to buy the cheapest and lightest car and put all your money on the motor and modyfiying the motor? Like I would get a 1996 hatchback CX or something like that because its light and cheap and then I would have maybe around $20,000 on the engine. With that much money couldnt you make one that has like 400-500 horsepower? And if you buy like a mustang V8 it is already expensive and almost waste all the 30000 so wouldnt a 4cylinder be better in all out drag racing than a V8 if they both had the same money??
if anyone is gonna go on "all out drag racing", a small budget is definately not the way to go if u wanna take part in the heavier classes..... thats the obvious thing. u stick to wat u want, or else just wait or go into wat u can get into.
Since the two won't compete with eacyh other, then there's no real point to
the comparison. Which is best depends on the class you want to run in. If
you want to run in a Top Sportsman class, it'd be stupid to spend $30k on a
front drive Civic, as it wouldn't run there, And it would cost vastly more
than $30k to make a competetive car FOR that class. Many classes have
minimum weight regulations, too, so again, you have to look at what's best
for that class.
The reason you're having a hard time getting this is that you're laboring under the impression that there is one overall best way to do this, and there simply isn't. Once you release yourself of looking for an overall best, you'll start to figure out the rest of it.
1400 - 1500hp out of a B series...umm...those blocks they use are
completely custom made for that application and well, last only so long and
are in no way, at all, ever, thinking about even maybe being "streetable".
the force acting on the rods is twice that of a 8 cyclinder. So the same
material rod in a 6 cyclinder (for instance) with have 2/3 of the force
acting upon in under load that a four cyclinder would. meaning, they can
natural max out at a higher hp. another advantage is that they dont have to
hit 8000 rpms to make their peak power. as the rpm increases, again, more
force is acting on the rod, piston, bearings and crank. to be exact, as the
rpm's increase, the internal load goes up by square of the rpm increase.
ex. 6000 rpms to 6100 rpms increasing
ill pull a number out of the air (dont know the normal internal load values of well anything but for the purpose of this example, this will work)
say at 6000 rpms you have 100 psi of internal load. now the rpms increase by 100. the square of 100 is 10000. so there is 10,000 psi of force in just that one 100 rpm increase. now those numbers should be much smaller but that is jsut to get my point across. i think everyone here should be able to deduct the difference in the forces acting on something that achieves 300hp at 5k verse something the reaches 300hp at 8k.
I'm not talking about class.. Im talking about just racing, it doesnt have
to be on a track. But nevermind.
I noticed on small displacement engines like a B-series Honda that the torque curve on a dyno graph is mostly constant.. Like at low RPM it goes across and doesnt drop down until like 7000RPM and it drops only a little. When the RPM is at 5250 where it crosses, the torque curve is still constant so the Horsepower is still going up more as RPM increase..
And on large displacement engines, The torque curve goes way up at like 4000 RPM but at 5250RPM the torque starts going down faster than the B-series and at 6000RPM the Torque is going down way faster and drops earlier than the B-series. Horsepower drops down at about 6000 RPM too.
So if the bigger displacement you have, the more torque you have at low RPM but at higher RPM the power is lower and torque is lower?
Is that why on big displacement engines, the redline is lower than a little displacement engine?
Go with DA Supra It has mor power stock. You can mod it hella good, and they are totally way cooler :2cents:
umm, what would be the point otherwise?
Can anyone please explain this?^
A non turbo supra wont touch a integra type R performance wise stock.....and ive only seen maybe 2 on the road....go with the integra.. :thumbs:
Supra no doubt...espcially the (93+ TT)
It all depends on the engineering of the motor. Take NASCAR for instance.
Lets say Tony Stewart's team builds an engine for his Monte Carlo, they
build special motors that can go 500 miles at around 170 mph at a pretty
much constant speed, the RPMs are spinning at like 6500-7500 for 500 miles.
Now, try to do that with a stock Monte Carlo.
But anyways, save your money and get the Supra TT. No comparison
b seres engines that have that have that much horsepower usually run once and sometime maybe twice a day befor being torn down and rebuilt actually any engine with horsepower that high should be torn down and rebuilt.. Look at funny cars and pro mods .. They rebuild pretty much after every race....
it depends.. what color is the type-r?:D
imo i like my lude more than either. the itr will be cheaper to mod and imo the supra is just hyped. cost is a major factor here...
Get the Type-R, dont ruin a Supra with your riceyness.
Grab the supra if you have money to waste
WHHAATT, **** the Type-R ruin the Supra
ok........... this thread is turning from "ricey" to completely stupid and ignorant now......
supra, no brainer.
NOOOOO. Supras are good. Keep them away from the Uncle Ben's!!
Don't forget to factor in weight. The Supra weights more than an Integra and therefore needs more power to get going and maintain speed. The Integra on the other hand weights a lot less and doesn't need as much power to do same thing. I have seen an Integra race and spank a Viper which has more displacement, more power, and more weight. So throw in thse factors and then try putting the Integra in the same league with the Supra.
Weight doesnt make THAT MUCH of a difference. 100 lbs = to about .1 second 1/4 time.
Well an ITR weighs about 900lbs less than a Turbo MKIV. That's nearly a second due to weight right there.
You would be suprised at much it does make a difference. I have riden in an Integra GSR with weight reduction and it was freaking fast so chew on that. :banghead:
M3's are fukkin bad ass dude. I seen one the other night...the guy couldnt drive it... but the car itself was friken awsome. Nice pic.
Who? Moi(for Turbolag: mua)?
If so, thanks man, I love the car. You can have one too, just need to be willing to put yourself in lots and lots of debt. :thumbs:
What engine does the new type R have? Like a 2002+ do they have the K20s?
I thought they had the B18's
Nah new models have the K20.
Do they make the type R models in the US or Japan? and whats the newest model. Are you sure the new one have the K20s?
New integra Type R's have a 2 litre engine.
What? That car is a Honda integra type R/RSX kinda. They changed the body/chassis for the new integra type Rs? Then what is the newest integra type R with the old body?
That is the latest integra type R, show me a picture of the one your talking about.
Just a regular integra, but with the type R sticker and maybe the spoiler.
You're an idiot.
2001 is the last year of the "old" integra type R:
They came with a B-18c5:
Makes me miss mine :cry:
Thats what I wanted to know Zalight.. Thank you.
Why do they make peak torque at high RPM 7500? Is making peak torque better at high RPM or low RPM like the V8s?
And for the new integra type R, they have K20s but do they make the car in US or Japan because the K20 is japanesse.
The new integra type Rs are made in japan, in the us they are the RSX-S
The reason hey make peak torwue so high is because of the ricers wet dream...Vtec. It doesn't matter where Peak torque is made, The point is to try and have The flattest torque curve possible. Thats not to say car companies make less pek torwque to make a flatter curve, that means they try and make come up to peak level....
Yes.. so the new type Rs are only the RSX-S? The same car/enigne? Why is it like that?
Well, they aren't exacly the same. They are the same car and do have the
same engine, but I know that the type R is better. Just don't know the
99integra? You are our integra fan, help a brother out, whats the differnces from the RSX-S and the ITR?
The Type-R could kick its ass, thats what the difference is. The RSX-S is a heavier/newer/shittier version of the Type-R. The Type-R is lighter and put out less hp but the RSX-S makes up for the weight problem by adding more hp. IMO, the Type-R could take the new RSX-S :thumbs:
What? I though the Type R uses the K20 with 220hp and the RSX type S uses K20a2 with 200hp. The type R is made in Japan right?
Okay, I don't want to explain all this so just read.
The first generation of the limited-edition Acura Integra Type-R was probably Honda's best image-builder in the United States, eclipsing even the exotic NSX in popularity among car fanatics. Based on the Integra coupe chassis and body style that lasted for the better part of eight years, the Type-R was first released for the 1997 model year in America and available every year till 2001, except for the 1999 model year. This so-called luxury-badged coupe is actually a barebones race-car which few will find luxurious. Initially available only in white, US-spec models were later sold only in yellow and black, while Canada got white and black. Incidentally, the original Japan-spec cars, sold only in the Japanese domestic market under the Honda badge, had rectangular wraparound headlights, while the rest of the world got four circular lamps.
All Type-R speedsters are externally differentiated from the 170 hp Integra GS-R by the unique paint, prominent rear wing, front chin spoiler, larger exhaust tip and the world-famous "Type-R" stickers. Other standard features include a close-ratio five-speed manual, Torsen limited-slip differential, a stiffer and stronger four-wheel double wishbone suspension, a lower ride height, reinforced body structure, ABS and high performance Bridgestone Potenza RE010 tires with small, but stylish, 15-inch aluminum wheels. Inside, the Type R gets barely-adjustable butt-hugging sport seats, and a carbon-fiber-encrusted instrument panel with amber illumination, along with a CD stereo system, power mirrors and door locks, and a boring leather steering wheel. Additionally, U.S. models get an aluminum shift knob and standard air-conditioning, while Canadian models don't get the funky shifter, but air-con is optional. The seats are hard and do not adjust for height and tilt, but offer excellent lateral support. The simple rear seats have a decent amount of legroom, being that the wheelbase is the same as the four-door Integra, but headroom is tight for taller passengers in the back due to the hatchback-like profile. Front airbags are standard.
Powered by the frantic B18C5 VTEC four cylinder engine, Honda managed to crank 195 hp out of a tiny 1.8 liters, at an impressive 108.5 horses per liter - a naturally-aspirated ratio bettered only by Honda's own S2000. All this power comes on at a skyhigh 8000 rpm, while the engine redlines at an insane 8400 rpm. Lots of power, and fuel economy is more like that of an economy car than a full-blown sports car. But the weak point of the engine is too obvious to ignore. With a peak torque figure of only 130 lb-ft, it would have been an issue on the dragstrip had the car not weighed in at only 2600 lbs. The problem is compounded by the fact that the torque peaks at a massive 7500 rpm, thereby making the Type-R no better than a basic Civic at low revs. To put it in perspective, even the new 140 hp Saturn Ion makes more torque, at 145 lb-ft. The Type-R uses a highly-tuned version of the GS-R engine. The notorious Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control system, or VTEC, came about from Honda's Formula 1 racing experience back in the 80s. The VTEC system uses three cam lobes and three rocker arms for each pair of valves, operating on both the intake and exhaust valves. The two outer cam lobes settings optimize low-speed torque and response while the middle lobe has a high-lift, longer-duration setting that optimizes high-end horsepower. The changeover between low lift and high lift occurs at 5700 rpm in the Type-R's case. At high revs, valve lift on the intake side increases by 0.9 mm, and on the exhaust side by 1.1 mm. The valve timing extends by an additional 10 degrees on the intake side and 8 degrees on the exhaust side. The engine block is makes use of pressure die-cast aluminum alloy and cast-iron cylinder liners for lightness and rigidity. Engine features include Programmed Fuel Injection, a rigid crankshaft with eight full balance weights, a crankshaft reinforcing bridge, twin-spring intake and exhaust valves, and a highly rigid integrated aluminum die-cast engine stiffener. The Type-R also has a larger diameter exhaust system. For best results, the engine needs to be strung to the maximum.
The Integra Type-R gives the driver quite a beating in city traffic. The stiffer suspension provides for a very harsh ride over uneven roads, and the need to rev hard just to get enough grunt to start moving is tedious. On the highway, the drone of the noisy engine at constant speed is almost unbearable, while compounded by the fact that most sound-deadening materials have been ditched to reduce weight. Plus, the somewhat large wing hinders rearward visibility. It becomes apparent where the car belongs once it is taken for a drive on twisty mountain roads. Neutral handling is the name of the game in tight corners, with little understeer and even a little oversteer when needed. The tail can be hung ******ds by lifting off the throttle, but it can just as easily be brought back in line with a dab of power. Tire grip is amazing, especially considering how relatively small they are, and the stiff suspension makes itself useful here, almost completely eliminating body roll. The steering is quick and precise, but a little heavy and lacking feel. A sneeze can set you off course. Needless to say, complete concentration is needed when driving at high speeds. And speed there is, and enough of it too. Given the scarce torque, acceleration is class-leading when shifting is done near the redline, beating the likes of the Celica GT-S, Eclipse GTS and even the newer RSX Type-S, while keeping up with the Mustang GT and Bimmer 330i, and beaten only by the WRX, Camaro Z28 and all-new Lancer Evo. Lateral grip is good too, considering the Integra's front-driven nature, but it is no doubt helped by the standard helical LSD and lack of body roll. Braking distances are impressive too, taking as much distance to stop from 60 mph as a Porsche 911. No wonder the Type-R has won the SCCA Touring Car championship numerous times. Most agree that the Type-R is a classic, especially when the RSX Type-S seems to be an all-round softer car.
Drive the Type R like you hate it. Rev the engine to the wee of its life. The exhaust note blooms with hard-edged fury that — like the S2000's sonorous wail — is about as close to a sport bike's as you'll find in a production car. The Type R wants you, no, practically begs you, to run up to the 8,400 rpm redline. Obey it, and the close-ratio gearing keeps the engine in VTEC mode and allows access to all 195 horses. Keep driving like a madman, working the shifter like the action on a rifle bolt, and the Type R gobbles up curvy pavement like The Flash late for a doctor's appointment. Remember those sport seats you didn't like in the city because they didn't adjust for height or tilt? Now they pay unexpected dividends, gripping your body and keeping you clamped down. The brakes bleed speed effortlessly and are easy to manipulate at the limit of traction. Only the steering lets the Type R down, its precision hampered by heaviness in the wheel and a lack of overall feel.
During the early stages of testing the Type R, we discovered just how impervious the car is to the rigors of some of California's toughest racetracks. Even in the really tight sections, the LSD gave the Type R a fighting chance against rear- and all-wheel-drive contenders. Although the Type R is track-bred, the car is perfectly livable and exhibits the expected Acura level of refinement.
There is nothing refined, however, about the cam changeover nearing 6000 rpm; fast gets abruptly faster. Though a pacifist, I find this violence seducing, not to mention highly addictive. Thanks must be given that the wonderful VTEC vibrato made it past the NVH engineers. Regardless of my shortcomings as a musician, sliding up and down 8500 rpm worth of scale makes any pilot a virtuoso.
That has nothing to do with my question.. I said the NEW type Rs that look like the RSXs
That was based on the new ones, read the damn thing :banghead:
I think he wanted to hear about the K20 that is found in the new DC5 Type-R rather that than the B18 powered DC2 model. Nice article by the way, very informative.
The new DC5 Type-R (02-05) uses a k20a 220hp motor. The RSX-S uses either a 200hp k20a2 (02-04) or a 210hp k20z1 (05-up). The old DC2 (01 down) Type-R uses a 197hp B18c5.