Why is this so?

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I was racing my friend. Here are the cars.

Me: 1998 Dodge Neon Sport 4-door 2.0L DOHC Inline 4, 150 horsepower 133 pounds of torque 3-speed automatic

Him: 1994 Chevrolet Cavalier RS 2-door 2.2L Inline 4, 120 horsepower, 140 pounds of torque 3-speed automatic


:banghead: Only tihng i can think of is that my car weighs a lot more and the power to weight ratio on mine and his is the same. That or my car is in a really bad tune. What can i do to fix this I feel dumb being beaten by that car. :cussing:

and yes i raced on an auto i just wanted to see how my car stacks up to others

posted by  6000LE

The reason hes staying with you is because he has the torque that your car doesnt, even if he doesnt have as much horsepower. Plus, the weight is also a factor.

I would put on a cold air intake, and a header and then see what happens.

posted by  SlipKnoT

no mods for me
it was in a small lot and i only got up to like 5000 RPM when the car floorshifts ar 6500
so that might be a factor
id get him in the longrun i think

posted by  6000LE

could be a number of reasons, displacement difference, torque difference, weight difference, gearbox and engine difference, anything could be the reason for it. It could also be because you car might need a tune up or something?

if i was you i'd get an intake and a header and see how ya go.

posted by  HyundaGuy

Power to weight and gear ratios. Driver skill too maybe?

Torque schmork, how do you know what the torque curve is guys? It could have a very flat curve peaking at 100 ftlbs and still waste a car peaking 150ftlbs.

posted by  Wally

what skill
its an automatic
you floor the pedal and just go
i have 133 torque but it doesnt kick in fast
only at like 4000-4500RPM

posted by  6000LE

**** mate, your torque band is TINY!, mines like 2000rpm long, lol.... AND THATS AN EXCEL! ****, i think something could be wrong there?

posted by  HyundaGuy

na look it up
its the 2.0L DOHC engine
its supposed to be that way
my thing is
can i increase the torque for really cheap?

posted by  6000LE

Well then maybe you should look at your stally too. I'd size it for you, but Oomba and the second smartest guy on the board should be able to do that in a snap for your.

posted by  Wally

higher compression with better intake... suggestion: CAI, Larger Throttle Body, Larger Fuel Pump, Thicker Head Gaskit and a 2" Borla Exhaust with a Borla Header :)

that could increase the torque... for fairly cheap... :)

posted by  HyundaGuy

Those things will tend to be more power oriented. To increase torque production (remember torque is a cross product of two vectors, while power is a scalar quantity) you need to increase BMEP.

And forget Borla, get the best = Gonzo performance pipes

posted by  Wally

wtf is BMEP, and if ur saysing tahts not the way to increase torque then u should say how.

posted by  Stem

I don't think so, but I'm sure members who are much smarter than the rest will explain. Alternatively you could put some study in and you wouldn't need to ask basic questions.

posted by  Wally

how do you increase torque? i always thought that increasing the a/f intake would increase torque?

posted by  HyundaGuy

Ok I'll concede you may get a slight increase, but it will be negligable and there is actaully a case where the peak may actually reduce.

What's the larger throttle body going to do? Answer = reduce pressure drop of the throttle plate:- flow potential is going to increase by the square root of the reduction in drop. But, peak torque is where peak VE and BMEP are and at peak torque rpm your TB isn't WOT or is it?

What's the larger fuel pump going to do? Answer = increase available fuel flow, but only if needed:- once again flow is going to increase by the square root of the flow increase. Once again you aren't pumping as much fuel as the engine requires at max power so not much point increasing just to cater for torque.

Thicker head gasket is going to do what? Answer = lower your CR and if OHC retard the valve timing. This will actually drop your BMEP and thus torque.

Borla exhaust is doing what? Answer = flattening and lengthening your torque curve, increasing peak power rpm (maybe).

And you may notice that peak torque on the same engine tends to stay around the same rpm, regardless of increases because of air density, cam grinds, etc. While significant improvement in power is fairly easy, torque rarely increases by more than 20% with standard street performance mods. Does that tell you anything?

posted by  Wally

tells me you're one smart son of a gun :PP

also, when i said thicker head gaskit, i meant thinner, i was just in a rush and didn't take any notice at all :banghead: my bad.

so when it all comes down to it, having a slightly smaller t/b and thinner head gaskit could potentionally increase the torque?

posted by  HyundaGuy

Increasing the compression ratio will increase torque. Bigger TBs will not necessarily increase torque peak, but will prolong better torque at higher revs because of better VE , but you will notice a drop in lower rpm range torque if you have a hairdryer and the TB is too big.

A bigger TB on a hairdryer will reduce pumping losses though.

posted by  Wally

so, summing it down, the higher the c/r, the higher the torque?

how can you increase the length of your torque band? especially if it's only 500rpm long!! THAT'S NOTHING!! OMG!!!

this is all useful information :D

posted by  HyundaGuy

1) The traffic cop in your engine is the camshaft. It is designed to meet the needs of engine geometry to deliver the goods.

2) If you think in extremes a tractor motor has some fairly evident differences in geometry compared to an F1 engine. What do you suppose they are? Can you imagine how many gears a road train would need if it had a high revving motor instead of a stump puller donk?

3) Intake and exhaust apparel will have some influence, but it is more titivation than actually getting to the guts of engine modification to improve performance.

4) Air density (ie mass flow), gas speed, sonics, displacement, clearance volumes, piston acceleration, piston speed, valve timing, valve sizing, stroke, bore, port sizing, etc all play on how much power is created at what rpm and thus the resultant pressure events in the pots and thus torque.

4a) mass flow increases via huffers and hairdryers will definitely improve your torque figure. When apllied to a standard N/A engine the increased VE will generally raise the peak torque rpm by a couple of hundred, but the significantly improved power will boost torque production significantly too.

posted by  Wally

Wally! What the HELL did you just say??

posted by  CarEXPERT

Matey, if you're going to walk the walk you really are going to have to learn English so you can bastardise it.

Reading books is a great way to improve your vocabulary and a keep your Websters handy.

Try here: http://dictionary.reference.com/

posted by  Wally

should get a taurus

posted by  FORD TAURUS

you're cool :smoke:

posted by  airmanUSN


posted by  FORD TAURUS

thats awesome where do you come up with this stuff? you even got the smilies to flick me off. I think we should start a fan club for Ford Taurus

posted by  airmanUSN

No thankyou, I owned one already and it wasn't up to scratch. The brochure power was overstated by a factor of ten IMHO.

Is it about bedtime for you now poppit? Go snuggle in and I'll be up to tuck you in shortly.

posted by  Wally

pwn'd :D

posted by  HyundaGuy

:clap: beautiful wally... i actually understood half of what you said, was that knowledge, like.. off the top of your head.. or was a website used to help? cause some of that stuff is damn smart my friend.

so basically, the smoother the engine runs at higher speeds, the more torque will be produced, including a forced induction to the higher, smoother running speeds of the engine, will also increase torque significantly?, in other words, a turbo or supercharger on a perfect running engine will be the best way to gain high figures of torque?

because that's the impression i got.

posted by  HyundaGuy

Mate I don't need the net, it's fairly easy stuff once you get over the mystique :mrgreen:

Next item you can explore in relation to your smoothness statement

With force fed systems like turbochargers, there are less pressure differentials than with N/A, so there is less swing of inertial loads and therefore less inclination to stress internals. There is a larger pressure envelope (mean effective pressure), acting on the piston even though peak pressure should remain the same to avoid det. Obviously if there is a longer pressure acting on the piston before blowdown, the more effort is being put in and thus resultant force.

By lowering the compression ratio on a turbo engine you lower the expansion ratio which means you can force more volume in (more clearance volume available}. Expansion ratio is how much the gas can expand before the exhaust valve opens and is more or less directly proportional to compression ratio. On a N/A engine the combustion is fairly peaky and therefore has a fair amount of piston travel available to expand to zip pressure, thus a high expansion ratio results in poorer performance.

Knowing this, think how a long stroke, with a relatively small bore is going to behave compared to a large bore, small stroke.

posted by  Wally

understood completely.

so does that mean that with a rotary engine, since it moves slower (thus making it peak higher rpm) it'd be able to generate more exhaust fumes to create more boost quicker then a piston engine?

i'd love to learn alot more about rotary engines, what can you inform me on these?

posted by  HyundaGuy

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