just for fun... import Vs. American muscle

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i havent seen this thread so.. here it is... and if there is one oh well... im all about imports... ive seen boosted civic blow away vettes and mustangs... but civics are in the bottom of the box.. the fact that a 4cylinder can smoke an v8 is amazing... if u know of any American muscle car that can beat a 1350hp skyline let me know??... for all i know there could be an "old school American muscle" car out there... state your opinion why you might think a 1972 z28 would b "better" than a 1998 tt supra

p.s. My friend claims his 72 Z28 camaro put out 350hp because the name of the engine is the 350 or somethin like that... im pretty sure the 72 z28 puts out ~225bhp.. am i right or wrong :screwy: (stats on the V8 and the V6 would b nice)... and just to add.. 1972 Z28 vs. 300zx Twin Turbo

posted by  jzxTT

You are right in saying that most Jap imports can smoke V8 American Muscle cars and there's numerous reasons for this the main one being power-weight ratio, most Japanese high perfomance cars, infact most cars in general are alot lighter than American Muscle cars mainly due to what's under the bonnet on the US cars..ie; a V8 is gonna be heavier than a 4 Cylinder motor, another reason is out 'an out power, you're talking about 1350bhp on these Jap cars, most US cars aint tuned at all let alone be that tuned! So the bottom line here is that you could evenly match two cars side by side (Jap and Muscle) with the same output and the Jap car would win hands down. Also, think about the driven wheels, all Muscle cars are RWD so an AWD Skyline with 1350bhp is gonna easily smoke the Muscle car lol..So I voted that Imports own the Muscle cars

posted by  Cliffy

Import / Muscle Wars (http://www.car-forums.com/talk/showthread.php?t=790)



I already did.

posted by  snoopewite

i seriously thought this war ended a few years ago... maybe that was just in my town

posted by  mazda6man

I don't Know about a 72 camaro,but I've blown away rice mobiles in my 88 ford station wagon. I'm not a chevy fan but a 350 is a damn good engine. I feel that If a car is japanese, Its an oversized Go-Kart. :orglaugh:

posted by  Vanman5001

I had to go with the Imports beating the American muscle. I mean everyone has mustangs and corvettes but truly there not as fast as a skyline or many other imports out there. I had to go with the Imports.

posted by  SilverCivicSi98

I vote American muscle because I'd love me some 1969 Camaros! Also I would love my dad's old 1972 Nova SS. 396 V8 MWAHAHAHA! :thumbs:

posted by  Satty101

.
.
Children always play the, "My car is faster than your car" game.

It all starts with the "My dad can beat up your dad" game in kindergarten.
:doh:
:doh:
.
.

posted by  BavarianWheels

Well u cant really Mod a muscle car as much as u can mod an import... muscle cars dont have any down force what-so-ever, and they're heavy as shit, ill give muscle cars credit... with there weight/no down force, being able to run 9's is a pretty bad ass thing... but a drag solara can run 7's so... Imports are always gonna be better..... someone should drop a 2jz in a 69 camaro and put a universal spoiler and a body kit just to mess with people :laughing:

posted by  jzxTT

Why do people always want to compare apples and oranges and then not even have their facts straight. Your seven second Solara is about as close to a street car as a Pro-Stocker. Yet the Pro-Stocker will run well into the 6's... without a turbo or nitrous like your Solara uses.

Why does it take the average ricer $15k and all sorts of modern technology to run almost as fast as my $4k daily driver Bug? Because once again it's an apples and oranges thing. That and their driving Jap trash.

posted by  vwhobo

ok ok ... solara was a bad example... what do you run in the 1/4 mile... how much bhp r u puttin out? for the record: euro-rice sux ass :orglaugh:
P.S. My swap is done.. I got a stage 1 power package from Z1 motor sports which included stage 1 turbos, 555cc injectors, ecu upgrade, Downpipes, test pipes ,dual intake, exhaust, and a new inter cooler, 425rwhp for under 13k :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

posted by  jzxTT

This engine has never been across the dyno but years of experience tell me a little over half of what you are. But it's still an all day long high 10's car. You probably have more into your turbo than I have into my engine.

posted by  vwhobo

American Muscle...because for me its about the $$:speed ratio. or just that american muscle is so much more manly. and it takes more skill to work on a muscle car than the matchbox...i mean import cars. :laughing:

posted by  SuperJew

Here's another thing just for the record. I really hate this topic everytime it comes up. Why you ask. Well first because it's pretty pointless. We should be building bridges between different types of enthusiasts instead of building walls. Second because if someone has their mind made up, no matter how wrong their reasoning might be they're still gonna stick with it. And last but not least, because technically the cars that I love, build and drive are imports. But the mindset, the technology, basically everything about it is as American as apple pie. People who are into ACVW's are hot rodders through and through whether they're at the drag strip, autocross, road course, local bull ring or car show.

So which side do I take? None, because everything sucks unless it's an Air-Cooled Volkswagen.:fu:






Just kidding:hi:

posted by  vwhobo

I also got forged wiesco pistons :mrgreen: ....back to the topic... i raced my friends dads.. (dont know the year) nova and got smoked.. my car is fresh outta the shop ... but then again he puts out 900hp so i guess u could say .... i got served :laughing: ... but any ways ... i dont see why anyone would want an old ass car... people do like what they like.. im sure people dont understand why i would spend 12 thousand on a 300zx either... but ill tell you it was damn well worth the 12k :thumbs: , Imports are just so much better than that old shit... even stock import vs A.muscle import would win.. it wins each and every time .. the fast and the furious is bullsh!it... i dont fukc with nitrous oxide and ive beaten a cougar before... (dont know what year) lo0ks like a muscle car.. my point is old toys break easily

posted by  jzxTT

The more I read the more I think you have no point at all. You have just made more unsupported statements which are really nothing more than your uneducated opinion.

posted by  vwhobo

a bro.. go get laid seems like u aint got n e pussy in years... all u doin is talking sh!t man... and ur ruining this forum with ur little b!tchy attitude.. .. y dont u post in this new thread.. you should see it....

posted by  jzxTT

Better yet, I have a splendid idea for you. Why don't you take your imaginary car and your mindless drivel and go f*ck yourself (that would be your version of getting pussy). I think if you read through this thread you'll find you're the one with the attitude who is talking sh*t. So far your magazine knowledge hasn't impressed me, or anyone else I think, in any positive way.

posted by  vwhobo

..... hah, i dont really give a sh!t about impressing anyone, i dont think anyone posting here gives a sh!t about being "impressive" .... hah.. your not a very good example :laughing:

posted by  jzxTT

Seriously, what are you peoples deal with the Skyline?

Every statement made about Japanese cars has something to do with a Skyline. The Skyline is overweight, and the only reason you people think it's fast is because (a) it's from Japan or (b) because it's rare in America, therefore JDM owns.

You #$%#ing fanboys are laughable.

Don't you people realize that your basic F-body or something of that nature can keep up with, or even beat your almight Skyline? Do you people even realize there are other Skylines than just the GT-R?

My God people, get a grip. Japan has nice cars, but they aren't God-like. Not to mention, #$%#ing realize that your average Honda is made to be economical, not a racecar. I could take an average Mustang and average Civic, throw the same amount of money into each and the Mustang would literally eat your riceboy shit for breakfast.

I have been on this board for about two hours and have seen more Japanese fanboys here than I have on the other boards I've been to - COMBINED!

Jesus, get a life!

posted by  Vassar

Not to mention, if you think total HP is the deciding factor for a car, you're an idiot. Do you have any times for this 1350-hp Skyline? Or are you just getting this out of Gran Turismo 3?

posted by  Vassar

Gentlemen, let me explain what us Japanese tuners are all about. It is not about the dollar to horsepower ratio. It is about getting a lot from a little. It is about being smarter then the engine and not accepting “there is no replacement for cubic displacement”.

We strive to get 250+ hp per slug. To do so we use technology, and technology, unfortunately, is never cheap. We embrace power adders such as turbochargers, nitrous oxide, and massive intercoolers. We strive to squeeze out every possible horsepower.

For me (just like you VWHOBO, with the bug) it is about the weight of the vehicle. Americans cars with their big blocks need big chassis, this makes for a heavy vehicle. The more mass you have the harder it is to accelerate, decelerate, and turn. A true performance car needs to do far more then just go fast in a straight line.

I also agree that a bug makes for an awesome performance car. It is lightweight, air cooled so there’s no water or radiator to add weight, the flat four is strong easy to work on and has a low center of gravity, and the RWD makes it sweet. All around it can easily become a sports car.

Now the reason you hear so much about the Skyline is because, to us, it is the ultimate car. Sure, it’s heavy, but it only weighs a little over 100 lbs. more then a Vette. And yes, it only has 280 stock horsepower. What is it? The Skyline is an AWD, four wheel steering, car that has nothing less then monstrous potential. A 2.6-liter engine that can produce close to 800 HP w/o internal mods. It's also a car that comes stock with a rear diffuser (first production car to do so). If you would like I could list all of the incredible feature this car has, but this thread is getting long enough. So let me know if you even care, and if so, I will start a new thread.

Remember this; before you guys bash the Civics (a vehicle I could really care less about) remember the bug was the same thing in its day.

posted by  Z-man_Dan

I agree with, understand and support everything you say except;



The Bug was, is and will continue to be rather unique. Extremely high tech and well built for it's time and in some ways still high tech. For instance, how many Jap cars, or any other cars for that matter, have a magnesium engine case/block? Not any that I can think of.

A Civic, as good of a car as it is, is not substantially different from a Sentra, Corolla, Mirage, etc. All decent cars but all basically the same. And I for one have never bashed a Civic, only the meatheads who come on here and say things like 'I just bought a Civic and boy is it fast, it's got neon and a fart cannon'. You get the idea.

posted by  vwhobo

ohh cmon VW, you keep on forgeting all the stickers and the NAWZ! Not to mention the big ass wings on the FWD cars! :orglaugh: Man, I really seem to have a hard time letting go of those. :banghead:

posted by  Satty101

So, the Skyline only has 287-hp, eh? Do some more research and get back to me. You think that an AWD car makes a difference? You do realize that AWD doesn't help anywhere but coming out of a corner or on the launch, and even the launch times aren't that much better.

I guess you have failed to realize that the RB26DETT is as big, if not bigger, than your typical LT1 or LS1. Or did you just not care because the Skyline is Japanese?

Another thing, this "technology" you are referring to was out in America LONG before it was ever used in Japan. Remember one thing, the Ford Pinto was beating your average Honda when the Pinto was coming off the line.

posted by  Vassar

Oh please!! How the hell could you both forget about the huge wings for the FWD car.

posted by  Z-man_Dan

I think you need to re-read my post. :mrgreen:


haha, I'm just messin around. :wink2:

posted by  Satty101

Uhmmm. Just a reminder for everyone. Aircraft have wings, wings create lift. Cars have airfoils, airfoils create downforce. That is unless you're one of the dildos who installed his airfoil upside down because it looks "phat". Then you're just a... dildo.

posted by  vwhobo

Thank you VASSAR for that information. I was not aware that the LT1 and the LS1 are smaller then 2.6 liters. That’s surprising. I wonder why they call it a 5.7 liter?

I am also shocked that four tires worth of traction only helps a little bit, if any at all, over the contact patch of two tires.

I was especially shocked to hear that American cars have been using VDC, EBA, EBD, a diffuser, VVL, direct ignition, variable intake manifold length, variable back pressure valve in the exhaust, among many many other features before the early 90’s.

I guess some people will never appreciate what they clearly do not understand.

Last note VASSAR your Pinto to Honda scenario was taken. I, however, never mentioned Honda's as being superior to American cars. Nor did I say that about the Skyline.

posted by  Z-man_Dan

So, because the displacement is bigger, the engine is physically bigger? Are you retarded?

You are one of those typical Japanese riceboys that believes AWD is so much better because it seems to get better takeoff on video games. There isn't a huge different in the launch times. If you would like, I could find you a video of your almighty Skyline getting stomped into the ground by your typical STREET LEGAL F-body?

My point being, the Japanese are not superior in automobile manufacturing, and closed-minded people like yourself needs to realize that.

posted by  Vassar

I’m sorry VASSAR you are right the dimensions of the RB26DETT is longer and taller then a V8. My point was not about dimensions but rather mass. The Skyline with its additional mechanics weighs a little more then the fiberglass Vette. That’s what I was getting at.

I also do not care about just the launch. AWD is flat out superior to two-wheel drive period. Traction in all conditions (acceleration, cornering, wet roads,…) is improved. I did not learn this from video games but rather by attending GaTech for four years. Last year our Formula SAE racecar lost to the AWD racecars from the different Universities (the wet weather caused traction problems).

Video does not mean crap. You can easily get a video of any car beating any other vehicle. If you honestly feel an F-Body is constantly better then a Skyline in performance then you are delusional. Most of all, I am sorry that this is affecting you so badly.

So how is the weather in Detroit?

posted by  Z-man_Dan

This doesn't affect me, but I just want some people to see that just because a car has a Nissan or Honda badge, they are not God-like. Either way, thanks for the discussion.

posted by  Vassar

OK, just because it has a Nissan or Honda badge doesn't make anyone or their cars god-like. It has gotten almost degrading--probably why VW hasn't posted anymore--The Skyline and the Vette are both awesome cars--no doubt. But saying things like "american cars have been using the same technology" is just insane. Cmon, man. Japan has had Detriot beat on the tech side of things for YEARS. And quit saying F-Body...it's getting old.

Videos do not mean anything. Neither does the fact that a Skyline motor is bigger than a Vettes. Give the Vette AWD, AWS, and many of the other technological advances the Skyline has---THEN give the Skyline a fibergalss body and other Vette characteristics and I think that the Skyline would be lighter.

In fact--this post has so many topics I am getting a headache thinking about them all.

FINAL WORD: Ricers are stupid. Neon, huge wings and mufflers etc. are digusting and degrading to the import community. (you see far less euro imports with gaudy sh!t on them...wonder why?) But then there are the V6 Mustangs with stupid tailights and dumb cobra body kits....I could go on forever!!

I forgot where I was going....oh well. :2cents: :banghead:

posted by  jmyers0341

That isn't the point! They are to separate cars, that is why they are compared. If the Skyline is so God-like, why does the 'Vette tie for the N'Ring record with a 911 Turbo? Yes, that's right. The 'Vette has killed the Skyline on the Skyline's own turf.

Seriously, take your Japanese fanboy ass back to your "Import Tuner" magazine.

posted by  Vassar

Do you even know what an F-body is? :banghead:

posted by  Vassar

Whats wrong with import tuner..? I eat vettes on a daily basis.. :orglaugh:
May I ask What you drive "!?!?!new thread : off topic?!?!?!" :laughing:

posted by  jzxTT

You know, no matter where you go on the web, this tired, lame, uneducated argument comes up. You'd think by now that at least a few more people would have been able to actually learn something.

Let's break down some of the arguments, shall we?

1): Japanese cars are more "high tech." In general that hasn't been true in a while. When it WAS true, it only meant electronics and "intelligent engine management." Not engine layout. DOHC? Not modern at all. DOHC engines have been around in production engines since 1912. Even the US had production aluminum, DOHC, 4 valve per cyl engines in 1932, and not just one company! Turbos? The first production turbocharged cars were American: the 1962 Corvair and the 1962 Olds F85 (in fact, the Olds had a 3.5 liter all aluminum V8 that was turbocharged with water injection).

In fact, the thinwall pushrod V8 was designed as a "high tech" alternative to the overly complex and overly expensive OHC engines. Advanced metallurgy made it possible to make a larger displacement engine in a much more simple, compact form. This made power available reliably for very little money. That's what advancing tech ALWAYS does. And the tech in pushrod V8s doesn't sit still: advancements in metallurgy, manufacturing, and electronic controls mean that the new V8s make more power than the big ones before, while prividing cleaner air and better fuel mileage AND daily driveability that they never had in the heyday of the musclecar.

2) moddability. Sorry, but the argumment that you can't mod the musclecar V8 is rank bullsh!t Anything that can be done to one engine can be done to another. Turbocharging, supercharging, nitrous, changing displacement, changing compression ratios, cam changes, induction and exhaust, all of it is available. Someone was talking about the 1300+ hp japanese engine. Very impressive. But John Kaase was building 1600 hp normally aspirated Ford V8s as far back as the early '90s. Supercharged versions are hitting 3000 hp. Top Fuel V8, which are displacement limited, are making 6000 hp. True, it isn't for very long, but it IS proof of the ability to mod the V8 for more power...

The BMW in my sig is getting a street V8 that is a suplicate of the ones I've built that make around 700 daily driver hp normally aspirated. the last one I built was together for 10 years with no more work, and only cost $1500. I believe that's pretty decent modding potential.

3) No replacement for displacement. Now, when I was working with sport compacts back in the '80s, it was fun to take a small engine and make teh car fast. But the truth is, there IS no replacement for displacement, and every engine builder knows it. That's why the Honda S2000 doesn't use a modded 1.6 liter or 1.8 liter version of the engine in the ITR. They could easily make the same hp with the smaller engine, but they decided to make it larger. And this year, they made it larger yet, though the hp isn't really different. Why do you think that is? Larger displacement makes better power for street use. The engine is more flexible, providing greater power over a wider rpm range.

Anyone can make a small engine make good power: make it rev more. We've been doing that for decades with Fiats, BMWs, Mazdas, MGs, Triumphs, etc. There's no secret. But the small engine making good hp numbers loses it's flexibility. USUALLY, the engine builder tries to increase displacement as well. That's why Porsche does not run heavily tuned 2 liter 6 cyl engines in teh 911 anymore. over the years, teh engine has risin in displacemtn from 2 liters, to 2.2, 2.4, 2.7, 3.0, 3.2, 3.3, 3.6 liters. even the turbo ones have gone from 3 liters to 3.6. Why? More flexibility. I mean, it isn't hard to make 300-400 hp from a turbo 2 liter, so why haven't they? Because the larger displacement gives the same power over a wider powerband AND has less stress on it.

Even in racing, the engine builders tend to use the largest engine allowed by the rules. the only exception is the race series where the car weight is tied to the engine size, and you may gain an overall handling or power to weight advantage by running a smaller engine. Those cars won't put out the same power, but by being lighter they don't really neeed to, and since every car is tuned as much as possible, engine stress levels are similar, so there isn't a reliability penalty.

3) hp/liter. Closely tied to the last argument. Hp/liter is a meaningless phrase, when used the way most import fans do. it is only important in racing series where displacement is limited, and in countries where displacement is taxed. Otherwise, it's making an engine more complex and expensive for no real benefit. AND, when comparing a small displacement engine to a larger one, it IS easier to get a larger hp/liter figure. A typical R/C car gas engine makes on the order of 450-600 hp per liter. Do you think it would move your car around very well?

A lot of times, you hear the argument, "because they get 200hp from a 2 liter engine, if Honda/Toyota/etc made a 5.7 liter engine it would make 600-700 hp!" Unfortunately, that's not true. Otherwise why can't Honda get the same hp/liter they already get out of their 600cc sport bikes? If they got the same hp/liter from their car engines that they get from their street bike engines, the ITR would make over 350 hp in stock form, and the S2000 would be pumping out more hp than the Corvette Z06! Going back to the previous section, you can see why they increase the displacement instead of increase the hp alone. The resulting power is much more flexible and useful in non racing form.

Going back to vwhobo's relm, the air cooled VW is a good example of how increasing displacement is important. The early '60s VW 40hp 1200cc engine is only used as a basis for building a racing engine in the classes that require it. otherwise, the 1600cc engine is a better starting point. The VW 1600 cc flat four has been increased in size to 1776cc and 1835cc as stout street engines, and 2110, 2180, and larger for street/strip and pure racing use. But as has been found out, at larger displacemetns, so much has to be done to kee the engines reliable that a better choice is to start with the VW/Porsche Type IV 4 cyl (which comes in stock displacements of 1.7, 1.8, and 2 liters), which have now been built up to over 3 liters for racing use. Why? The larger displacements make more torque, and make more power over a wider powerband.

(The VW is also a case where overall power isn't as important: a 150 hp 2180cc engine can propel a 1700 lb air cooled VW to 12 second quarter miles.)

4) Physical size. The typical small block Chevy is physically smaller than an inline 6, or DOHC V8 or V6. Since 'the early '90s, they've been all aluminum, so they weigh less than most I6 or V6 (or imported V8s). the engine is not the reason the cars that hold them are heavy. And if they are put into smaller cars, they rarely change the weight balance or overall weight by any noticeable amount. Same for the small block Ford (which is physically smaller yet, but only comes in an iron block).

5)Drag racing. Guys, the late model import stuff is pretty impressive to those of us who were around in the heyday of the musclecar, and the beginnings of teh sport compact movement. But as vwhobo knows, air cooled Bugs beat them all there with simple pushrod engines running 9 second quarter miles a couple decades ago...

But when it comes to straight line accellearation, it's only now that the most serious imports are getting to the zone of the more serious domestic cars. It's a good thing (and I for one am glad to see it, having been a fan of Japanese sport compacts for decades), but it isn't a case of superiority of the imports. The fastest emissions legal Mustang is running 7s... On a street legal small block V8. The imports running 7s are not street legal. But street legal domestics doing that are not a new thing. And ones running 8s and 9s are not uncommon, while 8 and 9 second imports are still pretty rare. And vastly more expensive.

6) road racing/autocross. The argument is domestics can't handle. Usually spouted by someone who has never seen american cars road racing or autocrossing, or someone who drove a buddy's drag race Camaro or Mustang and assumed that's a representative sample. The truth is they work pretty good, and any trip to a major road race or autocross event will confirm that. If you don't go to one of them, and still think they can't handle, your opinion is without merit. I've been doing both for a couple decades, in both american and imported cars. My opinion is that either domestic or imported are good choices.

Next post discusses the OTHER direction...

posted by  ChrisV

The other side of the coin is domestic people who bash on the imports...

1) VTEC is unimportant/not impressive/cheating/cheap substitute for a turbo, etc.

In the old days, building an engine (any engine) for performance meant tradeoffs: hp or driveability. the domestics, due to havining cheap fuel available, went for increased displacement in a cheaper, more compact package. Europeans and Japanese, due to tax rules and fuel costs, needed to use smaller displacement engines. But in order to make good power form a small engine, you needed to make it rev. This meant that higher hp small engines lost low end flexibility and driveability to gain that hp.

At the same time, if you were building a high power domestic V8, you faced the same choices. In order to make high hp numbers, you either increased the displacement or you increased the revs. Increasing displacenet was costly in a small V8, and the big V8s did get too large physically. the most common thing was to swap cams, intake manifolds, carbs and exhausts. Byswapping teh cams, you could increase the power made, but lose teh low end driveability (you would hear these cars rumbling around with a heavy lope at or near idle). Often this made the cars slower, as they had to wait for power to be made at higher rpm.

There were various workarounds for years: hot rodders would "degree" the cam (adjusting the cam timing in relation to the crank), dialing it in to make either maximum power or maximum driveability. A couple companies came up witha way to adjust the cam on the fly, allowing the cam to be in "driveabilty mode" at lower speeds/throttle settings, and turn to "power mode" at higher rpms. this helped, but the range of adjustment was necessarily small, as the cam lobe shape never changed. the other option was to swap out cams before heading to the races, then swap teh street cam back in when you came home.

Honda came up with an ingenious way to basically swap whole cams on the fly, having a daily driver cam for around town use, and a race cam that was installed automatically ONLY when you needed it! This WAS a serious technological breakthrough for small engine management!

Contrary to ricer belief, VTEC doens't make more power than the engine could with a race cam alone, and thus when ON the high rpm cam, it's no different than any other engine ever was with a performance cam in it. The beauty was that haivng the performance cam in the car no longer meant you lost the smooth running daily driveabilty when NOT performance driving. This was still a major accomplishment, and it was almost a decade before anyone else had anything like it. Not BMW, not Porsche, not Toyota or Nissan or Alfa.

2) Wings can't do anything for fwd cars. This is a bit of misinformation that is very prevalent, as people automatically assume a rear wing is ONLY used for accellerative traction. Thus a FWD car supposedly has the wing on the wrong end. Nothing could be further from the truth. Wings are there for downforce (or reducing lift) but also for stability. In fact, I can show you how a proper wing can reduce the road race lap times of a car like a Honda Civic without adding a single horsepower...

First, however, you need to understand how a FWD car works when on the track. In stock form, they are set up to understeer. A nice safe way to be for the average driver. But, under sudden decelleration, they can transition to oversteer as the weight is transferred forward. This could be dangerous (and has proven so in numerous occasions). This means you have to slow down considerably in a straight line before turning, increasing lap times. In order to combat this you could increase the front swaybar size, but that would mean you are making the car understeer even worse under power or in lower speed corners. Since in road racing, more corners are lower speed than high speed, you want to reduce understeer as much as possible. By increasing rear stiffness and increasing rear swaybar size, you can reduce understeer (and in fact, generate oversteer) to make the car turn in crisply. But this increases the tendency to oversteer under braking for higher speed coerners, and become genereally unstable. To keep the crisp turn in you've created for lower speed corners, but remove the oversteer tendencies, you add a rear wing. At low speeds (35-50 mph, the wing has little to no effect, thus allowing the rear to come around cleanly and be neutral. At higher speeds, (such as decellerating from 100-120 for an 80 mph corner) the wing keeps teh rear planted so the car doesn't spin, and keeps it in line at 80 or so. This means you can brake later for the corner and no slow down as much, reducing lap times and increasing average speed, without adding even one horsepower...

Since the wing doesn't add significant drag until you reach 130-150 mph, and you tend not to go that fast in most places, it's a perfect tradeoff.

3) Of course this is the other part of the put down: the thought that a wing only works at high speed (120 mph and up) and that a car with one MUST go 150-200 before needing it. That's just not true. Any aerodynamic device starts working as soon as air is flowing over it. The lower the speed it needs to work at, the larger it has to be to provide the necessary effect on the object it's working on. That's why a Piper Cub airplane can FLY at 35 mph! Most inverted airfoil wings are good at speeds as low as 70-80 mph, and thus could easily be tuned to keep the rear planted in the typical freeway cloverleaf offramp...

Look at the typical SCCA A-Mod autocrosser, with HUGE wings front and rear, to provide enough downforce for 2 G cornering at speeds as low as 35-40 mph...

http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/nationals/2000/photos/AM28.JPG[/img]
http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/nationals/2001/photos/eyeingaAM.jpg

Now, this isn't to say the average ricer knows how to make a setup work, but remember, just saying it [i]can't makes you no more knowledgeable than those you put down.

Also, a few people say a wing can't do anyting when bolted to the decklid, as it would just dent the decklid rather than push the chassis down. these people usually cite the Plymouth Superbird and Dodge Charger Daytona NAASCAR racers where the wing went through the quarter panel and was welded to the chassis. That may have been necessary then, but modern touring cars have proven that it isn't necessary. Just bolting it on the decklid does indeed work, and it doesn't make the car pop wheelies, either, or reduce traction on the front:

http://www.webcon.co.uk/alpha/images/briggcav.jpg

posted by  ChrisV

Ok, I read one sentence of the quoted post and I am almost certrain I agree, Jap cars are without doubt more technologically advanced than most other cars on the road....It's a fact, get over it guys, also I think that most people who are writing in this thread are people who dont have a clue about cars in general let alone Jap cars (apart from the regulars obviously, like vwhobo, satty, superjew and obviously any other Brits too lol). Also, whilst I agree with vassars statment about AWD only being an advantage on take off and on exiting corners, it wouldn't hurt you to do some of your own research and find out that most new stock Skylines can have the AWD system adjusted to make the usual 60/40 split of power, Rear - Front more so in either direction ie; you could have it as a 80/20 split instead...Ok, there's my :2cents:

posted by  Cliffy

"Japanese cars are more "high tech." In general that hasn't been true in a while. When it WAS true, it only meant electronics and "intelligent engine management." Not engine layout. DOHC? Not modern at all. DOHC engines have been around in production engines since 1912. Even the US had production aluminum, DOHC, 4 valve per cyl engines in 1932, and not just one company! Turbos? The first production turbocharged cars were American: the 1962 Corvair and the 1962 Olds F85 (in fact, the Olds had a 3.5 liter all aluminum V8 that was turbocharged with water injection)."

If you actually read more than just the first sentence, you would see that Chris was defending American cars in this bogus claim that the Japanese are more advanced. Specifically the sentence, "When it WAS true, it only meant electronics and 'intelligent engine management.'"

Don't be ignorant and read the whole post before you come to conclusions.

posted by  Vassar

Ok, listen up...at the begging of my post I said 'I am almost certain I agree' this is because after being here a few months I realsed that you do indeed have to defend yourself from time to time, the reason I didn't read the whole post was because, quite frankly I couldn't be bothered as I dont have 4 hrs to spare (btw, four hours was an exageration before you start on me)..And I aint ignorant, that's why I only post when nessecary. Oh and you will also notice that I said Jap cars in general are more advanced...that's why I didn't single any particular aspecs out...

posted by  Cliffy

Just the fact you don't have the time to read a well thought out post is a sign of ignorance.

posted by  Vassar

I'll tell you a sign of ignorance shall I......Not getting all the facts straight before calling someone ignorant, the reason I did't read the whole post was because I'm on a PC at work that I shouldn't be and if I'm caught I could lose my job, okay? good..Now I dont for one moment think that post was anything other than well though out otherwise I wouldn't have agreed with what I did..So, here's how it is, from what I've read here these past few weeks with all the bickering and whining between people, there are a lot of far worse cases than me!

posted by  Cliffy

how about you both shut the f*ck up! :cussing:

posted by  SuperJew

Appologies SJ and everyone else *Shuts up* :thumbs: oh and anyway..how come we get told to shut...up and everybody else gets popcorn :wink2:

posted by  Cliffy

You don't have time to read the post, but you can argue about it for three or four more posts...

posted by  ChrisV

Not necessarily... Who says its "well thought out".... anyways.. back to the topic, I was saying (disregard money) If you could tune a car to the max (taking the top muscle car.. or top 20 .. doesnt really matter, and take the top imoprt, skyline, supra... whatever.. ) which would win, or who would win more, import or muscle... ?

Tell'um SuperJew.. :laughing:

posted by  jzxTT

What kind of racing? If you are talking drag racing, how many 6000 hp imports are out there? hell, how many 1600 hp normally aspirated import racers are out there?

American engines are putting out those numbers...

Any imports running 4 second quarter miles, regardless of money?

How about top speed? A little clue, a STOCK BODY Pontiac Firebird with a twin turbo small block V8 has already gone over 300 mph.

http://www.kugelkomponents.com/bonneville/bonneville.html

http://www.kugelkomponents.com/bonneville/guyswcar.jpg

posted by  ChrisV

OMG.. thats ****ing crazy... but i was thinking more .. 1980-and down muscle cars.. not nascars and all that bullshit.. when i say american.. i mean american muscle cars, the one you've mentioned....And what car runs a 4 secong 1/4 mile?

posted by  jzxTT

yeah, althought jap cars are good at being fast, american cars win in the end.. the thing is that jap cars HAVE to be smarter to make the hp from smaller engines. hmmmmm... wonder if you could put a 10.4 litre BBC V8 engine in a ricer... the interesting thing is before i read this forum i wanted a R34 skyline (hence my name...) but now i'm not so sure.. have you guys got any good ideas for buying a serious american car in the UK that i can tune the hell out of and still be able to use everyday? as in will be safe (ish), fast, look great standard (not really into bodykis for anything but ricers)..budget of around £20,000..i was thinking a '69 camaro..or a charger.. oh.. one last point.. not many ricers have that great V8 burble do they? an unsilenced V8 is a real novility for me over here.. :drool: you lot in america are so lucky.. plus you have great fuel prices.. trivial question.. but what is the cost of a gallon over there now?

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

Put gas in yesterday in my wife's car. Premium 91 octane =$2.39/gal

So. Cal. area.
.
.

posted by  BavarianWheels

see what i mean.. it's more like 80p / litre here.. thats ROUGHLY, I SAY ROUGHLY for all the people who will flame me for an approx value worked out in my head $5.40 a gallon.. i think emigration may be cheaper..

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

I'm with you on that one....Fuel prices over here just seem to rise and there's no sign of them sticking at a certain price..I remember the days when a litre of fuel would cost just 66p..those were the days :banghead:

posted by  Cliffy

ouch. Premium here (I only know because my Beretta NEEDS it to run right) is around $1.92 or so.

posted by  Satty101

Alright mate. Cliffy and I were only saying how lucky the Americans are the other day. The three of us just about make up the entire Britsh presence that's active in these forums right now http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/travesmilies/flaggen1/smilie_flagg e3.gif Where are you thinking of getting a classic muscle car from? As unsilenced cars are illegal where we live, are you thinking about just taking the back box off at cruises? Remember that American cars are left-hand drive and resale could be just as much hassle. One more thing, it's best to roughly convert pounds into dollars out of consideration for our American friends. So long R34RB30DETTV... that name looks like an error :laughing:

posted by  snoopewite

ok upstate NY prices:
87 - ~$1.87/gal
91 - ~$1.92/gal
93 - ~$1.99/gal

posted by  SuperJew

yeah, sorry i didn't make my unsilenced V8 statement quite clear.. i mean i love the sound of unsilenced V8's, like you said thier at cruises and also at santa pod etc. but also i love the sound of road legal V8 too, although not quite so "meaty" still a great sound.. i was thinking of going to D.A.R.T Garages (Penshurst Rd Leigh, Tonbridge, Kent) and looking around there.. they ALWAYS with out fail have a fine display of american muscle out the front of the shop.. some of it just goes it to be serviced but there are some real beautys there.. also my friend has an obsession with chevy engines and keeps lecturing me on how much better they are than jap engines.. his brother has a pristene condition '69 (i think) stingray (its the one without the chrome front or rear bumpers i'm informed is the way to tell it apart..) and he really wants me to get an american classic. i suppose all i can do is to take a look around.. i'm in no particular hurry right now.. where do you (snoopewite)reside? are there any american garages near you?

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

Hi R34, I'm not too sure about Snoope but where I live in Surrey there is an American car showroom kinda thing, I believe it's in Kingston although I'm not too sure. And as Snoope said, we just about make up the Brit side of things here! Nice to meet ya! :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

American muscle owns imports. No contest

posted by  archangle

:read:

Newbies :laughing: . Ok Mr.CFnewbie, You mind backing up your little comment. Try to come up with your own words, dont quote what someone else hase already said. :thumbs:
btw, Do you have a car? :screwy:

posted by  jzxTT

I live in Kent, in the upper most corner just inside the M25.. I saw under your name that you were in surrey, I jus wondered if Snoope was in our vicinity too.. The sad thing about the American garages around here is that they all seem to be tucked away in obscure places and some of them are not listed in the directories at all.. :banghead: Is the garage you’re thinking of in Kingston called "Genuine Imports Ltd"? nice to meet you too mate. :laughing: :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

if you want to run an '80 and older musclecar, then you have to compare it to an '80-older Import. And older Musclecars, like the Charger Daytona or Plymouth Superbird were the 200 mph NASCAR racers back when NASCAR was a whole lot closer to factory.

Again, you asked for unlimited tuning money (tuned to the max, money not an issue). Well, that puts Top Fuel dragsters in the unlimited tuning category for American power. Between those and Funny cars (which are also unlimited tuning), you see 6000 hp and 4 second quarter mile times.

But now I see, you don't want to allow older musclecars to have any MODERN money spent on CURRENT modifications, but you DO want to allow MODERN Japanese imports to have unlimited MODERN modifications, so you can see which is faster... That's apples to oranges.

You might as well say, "let's have American and imported cars get unlimited tuning money, but limit American cars to old engines, old tires, no actual engine modifications, and no suspension changes and no non-stock bodywork. If we run a car like that against a JUN Skyline with a million$ in total mods, who would win? The Skyline, so Japanese cars are better!"

Sorry, but with unlimited funds, the bigger engines will always make more power. Because with unlimited funds, everything else is equal.

That Firebird is an '80s model, and the engine is a small block Chevy, the same basic engine that dates back to 1955. I'd say that counts as an American Musclecar that has been "tuned to the max."

posted by  ChrisV

I'm not at all sure of the name of that place, the only reason I was told about it was because an old work collegue of mine had a US van and he had to take it there for a Power Steering fault..sorry I cant be of much more help lol..I would however suggest that you try the Auto Trader UK website or even the Thames Valley addition of the magazine, I know you ideally want to go via a reputable business but hey...you can pick up a bargain these days mate :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

Well SuperJew?

posted by  snoopewite

i guess it wasnt a popcorn moment IMHO. this was more of an annoying argument.

posted by  SuperJew

Well I assumed that muscle cars were no longer made afet the 80's. :mrgreen:

posted by  jzxTT

So if Cliffy was doing a good job of barating a know it all little know n00b then it would have been time for the :pop: and not the :tomato:



Well it's time for me to give my :2cents: on what you had to say ChrisV. I enjoyed reading both of those posts but I just decided to quote my favourite bits :wink2:
3+4) Didn't you forget to mention that bigger engines can generally handle more power than smaller engines to boot?
2+3) I have indeed been misinformed about wings in the past.
You nailed some great points and used good examples to try to make sure that you hammered your points home. Excellent stuff :clap:

It's just too bad that the dummies in here ignore what people say in posts that have actually had some thought put into them :roll: I suffer with you Chris, I really do :banghead:

posted by  snoopewite

I know you guys are probably sick of the whole import vs muscle car arguement, but myself not being well educated on cars, have learned a lot just by reading this, so if you guys think there is no point to the arguement, think again, because it really filled me in on more than just how much horsepower a car has...good stuff :thumbs:

posted by  mike05

Yeah, I don't think I've ever properly heard anything more than a V6 in the flesh until the Friday before last. It was when I was in a lorry and a TVR overtook us. It might have even been a Speed 12. The TVR driver had to slow down for another car ahead that was turning off so we caught him up and then he left us again at 55mph. The full throttle roar made me drool :drool: Well not really, I'm exaggerating.



Sorry that I missed this one. You might have already read by now that I live in Sheffield but I don't know of any American garages near me.

posted by  snoopewite

Hmm i dont even know where to start, for one Domstics will always be faster. Put it this way most of the time to make imports faster you do a swap. So take a fully built 350 and put that in a S10 and compare that to putting a Type R motor in a crx the CRX would run good solid high 11's or 12's but that S10 will fly even if you mod the CRX it wont keep up with a fully built 350 in a light car.

Now that i said that you guys are wrong about it takes 15,000 to make an import fast, i will have put around 3200 in my car and i should hopuflly be running low 13's on street tires, and i still have many mods i can do so for who ever said it takes tons of money to make a car fast is wrong. You may have payed 4g's for your car that runs tens supposeldy but its still a bug.

And as for whoever said it is more of a challenge working on domestics then imports, YOU ARE AN IDIOT even most domestic say imports are to hard to work with to much technology in them, domestics are by far the easyest cars to work on everything is soo simple and every little thing makes a differance. Compared to imports where tehy are not mod friendly. If you want a reall project getting a honda into 10's and below getting a V8 into tens shouldnt be a big deal.

I like both i like all cars i can play wiht but i love my honda that beats MOST V8's and i love V8's period.

posted by  boosted99si

Calling someone an idiot it not a good way to start off at CF, but ill give you credit, you actually now about cars unlike some people here, good job :thumbs: . What have you done to your honda? No honda has ever beaten me. :orglaugh: .

posted by  jzxTT

I would just like to point out that the above "compliment" was given by someone who's major accomplishment in the automotive arena is getting Mommy to write checks for him. Take said "compliment" for what it is worth.

posted by  vwhobo

My "mommy" giving money has nothing to do with my knowledge of Z's. Long time no post, where've you been?

posted by  jzxTT

Hmmmm. Your compliment was to someone who talked about CRX's and S-10's, how does that relate to your "knowledge of Z's"? Nevermind, those who care to read already got it and those who don't, won't.

At any rate where I've been is directly related to the huddled masses getting tax checks so they can afford to perform long overdue maintenance and repair on their pride and joys. Unfortunately for me it's the same time I chose to rent some equipment to clear 50 or so acres. Lucky me.

posted by  vwhobo

Maybe idiot is not the best way to start but he was wrong i didnt want to sound like a dick or anything so.... i guess im sorry. But as far as what i have done to my honda i have a B16a2 comes with all si's Greddy turbo kit XS-RFl Bov, Greddy type 24 intercooler, GSR cams, ITR ported manifold, 3" pipeing from downpipe back, and DC short shifter and should be running 7psi. The kit, bov, and intercooler arent in yet they will be here at the end of the month. :smoke:

In my car right now i have ITR cams, Injen CAI, ITR ported manifold, the 3" exhuast, JUN 4-1 header, no cat, and the DC short shifter.

posted by  boosted99si

I dont know, no ones knowledge is anywhere near yours so I can see where you come in on this one. And I dont feel like typing any more. Good to have you back hobo. :thumbs:

posted by  jzxTT

A Speed 12? there are only like 3 that are still legal on UK roads!! you lucky thing... :laughing: shame that TVR's are so quite when their not being pushed, but i suppose if you drive it alot then you would appreciate some quieter moments... on saturdays there are alot of V8 cars around here, ferraris, TVR's, jaguars and many more.. sadly normally no corvettes, especially no Z06's, maby the occasional stingray tho.. soon to change that if i get my way :thumbs: or rather if the insurance company will let me..lol.. :banghead: ..think maby i'll open a thread bout insurance..

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

There is this one - How much do you pay for insurance? (http://www.car-forums.com/talk/showthread.php?t=615)

posted by  snoopewite

Imports and Muscle Cars suck, it's all about airbagged s10's with spinners.

posted by  Integra_LS

now you've done it.. :doh: :banghead:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

I think that the American cars cant touch the Imports because they break down before they can race! :hi: He He!

posted by  StiMan

Are you even remotely informed of the legendary reliability of the chevy 5.7 V8? the engine was produced from 1952 untill the current date with only minor changes made to it at one at a time such as fuel injection, emmission control and an ECU. You only get one chance at a first impression and your chance has nearly expired... Don't talk bollox. :ticking: :banghead:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

I aint talking engine reliability i am speaking in everything...mostly meaning Fords...Chevys...are...ok...but...What ever you wish to think is your opinion...this is mine!

posted by  StiMan

Yeah, i know what you mean with fords, they do thier job ok though. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one!!! :thumbs: :laughing: :thumbs: :laughing: :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

Well that is one way of thinking...

posted by  StiMan

If you mean that as a joke, ha ha. If you actually believe it, you're an idiot.

posted by  ChrisV

As I stated before that is my opinion. Note: I dont mean classic Chevys and Fords. Before like the 70s/80s the American Cars were great reliable pieces of power, but now they have tried to go for quantity instead of quality and are not as good...thus my practical joke on the breakdown. Say wat you wish...but it depends on year/timeframe of the "American Muscle" Now: Cant compete with Imports. Before 70s: Could compete, and perhaps win....all depends on time...

posted by  StiMan

And how much actual experience do you have?

Could you tell me eactly how, for the money, this car that I owned couldn't compete with the imports? It was fast, handled better than most new cars, and was completely reliable.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cvetters3/svt1.jpg

posted by  ChrisV

Depends on the import. If you are looking at some basic lil underpowered Echo or something perhaps your lil Ford (Contour I believe) could win. Not a STi or Evo or S4 or RS6 or etc....

posted by  StiMan

Whether American cars "break down before they can race" (wow that was hilarious) or not isn't a matter of opinion. It's factual, so either they do or they don't... but wait, it's not that black and white is it because not all American cars are the same :banghead:

Look ChrisV, another member trying to hide behind opinions :mrgreen:

posted by  snoopewite

And how do you know his Contour (Mondeo to us here in sunny UK) isn't performance tuned etc?

posted by  Cliffy

He said nothing like that and as far as I know there is no way you could make that hunk of...stuff...move like a import...the car does look to have some mods, but I cant see how, even tuned up, it could beat a import (stock or tuned) that was "Speedy"...

posted by  StiMan

Are these cars not just a little too diffrent to compare? the Subaru was designed to gain allowance into the WRC and the Ford was designed to move people around safely, economically and with ease. the Ford is more practically based car where are the Subaru is a "rally bread mad-arsed supercar" (i quote from Top Gear)... :2cents:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

Exactly! I never think of a Contour as a "American Muscle" anyways...not built for that...it is just like he said...it is a daily driver...unlike a STi which is for fun...not for Grannys!

posted by  StiMan

De-Ja-Vu sets in lol...that quote was from a posting of mine in the 'What's the difference between a 4cyl & 6cyl car' thread btw, good statement though R34, I obviously agree, I was just posting my thoughts on the matter earlier lol

posted by  Cliffy

Yes...V6 167? Jeez...

posted by  StiMan

Yes but that's the stats of a UK spec car, I'm not too sure if the US car's are different..oh and the 167bhp was for the ST24 (Sport Technology 24 valve), the ST 220 (Sport Technology 220bhp) which is obviously even sportier speaks for itself lol

posted by  Cliffy

*sigh*

Again, someone with an opinon and zero actual knowledge. You know, once you get out of puberty and start dealing in the real world instead of being magazine racers, you might start to learn things about cars...

posted by  ChrisV

BTW, that Contour is teh SVT version. larger 4 wheel disc brakes, racing tuned suspension (as people found out in autocross and road racing), hand built engines with things like larger throttle body, extrude honed intake manifold, performance exhaust, etc. And it came from the factory this way, including things like BF Goodrich g-force kdw tires, which are one step off of being DOT legal racing tires. These cars were not just economical people movers. And they cost over 10k less than the WRX or Evo, while handling actually better than either. A tick slower to 60, but guys are putting down over 400 wheel hp with less than $5k in mods.

Simply put, you don't know enough about cars in general to make the statment. My car was on the race track rather ofter, and never broke, so your initial statmetn about breaking before they can race was retarded, ignorant, and elitist bullshit.

posted by  ChrisV

and heres some info about ChrisV's SVT Contour i thought would be helpful...

http://formen.ign.com/news/18281.html?fromint=1

posted by  SuperJew

M8! I am at least 10 years younger than most of you, heck I cant drive yet, so please tone it down a tash, eh? What I said was from what I believe(d). I have tried to use all of my car knowledge in all of what I have said and I apologise for my practically-based joke in which I did not mean to offened anyone, as I obviously have. I joined this site to better further my knowledge of cars from my piers and betters, example you, so I can be like yall later on in my life. If you all wish to ask me to leave then I shall and go somewhere else to spread my views and say what I know to those where are more appreciative... I am very sorry that you all feel this way about me...and many of you have already challenged many of yalls views and such and just ask me and I will go...sorry for the trouble! :oops:

posted by  StiMan

I personally don't give a rat's ass if you stay or not. You say you're here to learn, but you're busy spewing your form of bullshit to gain any knowledge. You'll learn more by listening than by running your mouth. Try it sometime.

posted by  vwhobo

Ok...anyone else's opinon?

posted by  StiMan

damn theres an abnormal amount of pimp slapping going on tonight...heres another one for StiMan:

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s23/smilies-8137.png

posted by  SuperJew

That is not opinion. That is all fact.

posted by  vwhobo

Does anyone else have that same "fact" (Which is actually an opinion.)??

posted by  StiMan

i rescind (sp?) my pimp slap and give out some :pop:

posted by  SuperJew

Wat? Im lost...

posted by  StiMan

pay no attention to me. go on with vwhobo.http://www.mustangcentral.net/mcforums/images/smilies/lurk.gif

posted by  SuperJew

I have no desire to go on with anything. What we have here is a person who doesn't want to listen, doesn't want to learn but is quite content to piss and moan. Maybe it would be better for him to leave.

posted by  vwhobo

Your input gives a comic relief to the whole subject...

posted by  StiMan

I will make a vote...vote for me to stay or go...personally I find you to be just what your name says...but I need some more input...

posted by  StiMan

How old are you? Do you have the stones to argue with a couple people that have been in the business longer than you have been alive? Do you really think you know enough that your OPINION is set in stone and that you can learn nothing else about cars your whole life?

posted by  ChrisV

Not 15; Yes I have the "stones"; no, and yes I will learn more. Answered the question?

posted by  StiMan

Part of the question.

How do you get to the point, at 15, that you think you know enough to come into a conversation making any sort of informed statements? How do you think that your opinion is based on enough fact to be stated so absolutely? Where do kids get off making insulting statments about things they KNOW they don't know much about? You came in and made the statement that the American cars, like Fords or Chevy's would break before they even got to race. And you didn't think that somehow that might be taken as insutling AND as showing lack of overall knowledge?

To reiterate what I said in my own introductory post: I've owned over a hundred cars, from most major manufactuers from Europe, Japan, and the US, thogh the only three that I ever bought new have been domestic (well, the Contour counts as at least partially European, due to the original Mondeo being designed there. But the SVT version is homegrown hot rod). I like cars for a lot of reasons, but where they come from has never ben a factor in saying yes or no to one.

ALL cars can break. That's why there are independant repair shops making money off of fixing them.

Now, while I've owned a huge number of cars, and worked on hundreds more, and raced a very wide variety of my own cars and others over the last 25 years, vwhobo has worked on considerably more. I'd suggest to ANYONE that is stating opinion based on either only reading something, or on having limited direct experience, that you might want to back down a touch before asserting that your opinion is correct.

posted by  ChrisV

My opinon is my choice...what I want to think is whatever I want...I know plenty about cars to make my own decisions about them and such...for my age I know plenty and I can make a statement whenever I want...I live in America thus I can say whatever I want...so the question is: are you too scared to have a 15 yearold make his own opinons that greatly threaten yours?


Note: How old are you?

posted by  StiMan

Little boy, the bottom line is this. Your right to be heard does not constitute our need to take you seriously. You may know plenty, but not about cars. We've had this discussion before, but let me reiterate it for you. Sit down, shut up and listen. You might actually learn something that way.

posted by  vwhobo

I listen when I want too...

posted by  StiMan

Why would you want to exersize a right to be wrong, as loudly as you can be?

You could have th opinion that you could cure lung cancer by rubbing grape jelley on your chest and chanting, but just because it's your right to think that, AND your right to SAY that, why would you want to?

Opinions are NOT carved in stone. And if they are based on mistaken concepts then they are just as wrong as if you said 4+4=17!

Do you do the same stuff at school? Do you tell your teachers that that test answer wasn't wrong? That it in fact was your opinion, that you have the right to have? Do you think they would let you get away with that? And would you even try to tell them that?

Do you think they would say, "well, if it's your opinion, and you think you know enough to retain that opinion in the face of all the known facts, then I'd better re-grade your paper. Your answer can't be wrong if it's your opinion!"

Somehow I doubt that. And you'll find that out in the big world, when you run across adults that have been in the field for a while, that the usual response will be the same as mine and vwhobo's.

Why do you think it's smart for you to close your mind up so tight? Why do you think it's smart to assume, at 15, that you know "plenty" about cars?? Especially enough to be able to form informed opinions and not listen to people with decades of direct experience?

Listen, we all have favorites. It's good to have favorites, and hopefully we all have different favorites, otherwise it'd be boring as hell. But there is no reason to cut down and insult everything that isn't your favorite in order to justify your liking of that favorite. Tribalism is the comfortable home of the small minded. Demonizing everything that isn't your favorite in order to show support for your favorite IS tribalism. It happens with family, with school, with sports teams, with communities, and with countries. It doesn't require any mental effort, and it doesn't require actually knowing anything. What it does require is only learning that which supports your beliefs. That isn't true knowledge.

posted by  ChrisV

You need to start listening when you have to. You learn more that way.

posted by  ChrisV

yet another teen who gives Satty and I a bad name... :laughing:

posted by  SuperJew

And don't forget your new buddy, cluv83. :screwy:

posted by  vwhobo

Dude I dont want to go through this again! :banghead: Ok...my opinion/ favorites are non-Ford and GM owned Car companies...Thus I can say anything I see fit to my non-favorites...you can say what you wish...I say what I wish! I dont do this thing at school because I am not challenged at school and there I cant do opinions...everything is fact. In the world of cars their are facts and favorites/ opinions. I am using my favorites (non- Favorites as in GM and Ford owned companies) and my facts (Reliability/ recommendablity by Consumer Reports, Automobile, Road and Track, Car and Driver, European Car, etc.) to make my postings...For vwhobo he does the same by perhaps automatically recommending VWs and such. (this is based on a theory by his name.) They are good cars and his postings are made by fact and favorites/ opinions just as mine. :2cents:

posted by  StiMan

Once again you have used my name and lied about what I said. I certainly DO NOT automatically recommend VW's. As a matter of fact I am much more likely to recommend Japanese cars when asked.

DO NOT EVER USE MY NAME AND LIE ABOUT WHAT I SAID AGAIN OR YOU WILL BE REMOVED FROM THIS FORUM. GOT IT?

posted by  vwhobo

I did nothing of the sort...ugg...I simply guess by your name, avatar, and sig that you did such...I did not lie! I rarely ever do and to my knowledge have done nothing of the sort on this site.

Question: Why cant I make a thread anymore? Either I cant or someone is deleting it...I try to make one on the A4 Cab and after two seconds it is gone...what is going on?

posted by  StiMan

Just because you live in the US doesn't allow you God given rights to be heard above everyone else...I'm not having a dig at Americans btw, I just found that statment insulting :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

No offense taken Cliffy. The real Americans here are insulted by his attitude also.

posted by  vwhobo

I could say something here related to God and USA but wont...vw? Insulted? I did nothing wrong and yall burn me! No...no American should do that...I believe that we are all insulted by the injustices being done here...
vw: Stop screwing with my sig!

posted by  StiMan

Your signature has been modified by a member of the moderation team. Changing it will be grounds for immediate removal from this forum.

posted by  vwhobo

Fine...so wat do I do now that I have been put on the "vwhobo list of 'probation'"? Do I just stop posting for a while or something...
Note: I did nothing to deserve my sig changed to the probation pic.

posted by  StiMan

Well...I have been put on probation :oops: ...part of me wanted it so yall would lay off...I have enjoyed my short stay here and I hope that you all learn to perhaps create/ work out a better system. :thumbs:

Note: please email me when I can come back and thanks for not totally killing me off! :thumbs:

Note to others: dont push em hard...or you will get a http://www.car-forums.com/talk/images/ranks/prob.gif put on ya...just give up...

Thanks!
StiMan

posted by  StiMan

Probation doesn't mean u have to go, does it?

posted by  Cliffy

I dont really know....I have been here 3 days...do I have to go or wat?

posted by  StiMan

No, probation means you are being watched closely!

posted by  Cliffy

O! I didnt know that...o well... I will tone it down anyways...I cant even pm!

posted by  StiMan

:2cents: It'll be good to see someone survive their probation period.

posted by  snoopewite

I want to stay...thus I apologise to all those that I have offended and I will tone it down and show a better behavior to my piers! Sorry!

posted by  StiMan

you should...if you lose a pier you cant put a boat anywhere. :laughing:

posted by  SuperJew

Ya know that was as bad as the thing...Piers...ugg....Ok yours was better...

posted by  StiMan

The thing does tend to work....if you do it right :thumbs: btw...do you have British tendencies?..its just that I noticed a lack of the letter 'Z' in words like 'Realise' or 'apologise'...just wondering!

posted by  Cliffy

Wait...realise is spelled realize? No sorry m8! Not english tendencys, just a lack of good spelling...it happens to me everywhere!

posted by  StiMan

And you say M8! lol....no, you guys in the US tend to spell 'Realise' as 'Realize' or 'Apologise' as 'Apologize' infact, most places that we use an 'S' you guys use a 'Z' (except 'magazine off course!) I dont think either way is the correct way, it's a bit like the word 'Cheque' as in payment Cheque, you guys usually spell it as 'Check' as in "I'll go check on..."

Sorry for my baffling on guys! :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

The m8 is from online stuff...the realise is from poor spelling and is entirely on accident...nice VX220 by the way!

posted by  StiMan

Thanx, I nearly couldn't display it, Adam sorted the URL for me though..I'm saw the Union Jack and had to have it lol...as for the spelling, I just found it looked very familiar and the M8 bit too (try pronouncing it in yout accent lol) :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

Gee, there were some great posts (especially ChrisV's) seemed pretty balanced. I think that it is critical to always realize that there will be strengths and weaknesses. Having spent some time at various Corvette gatherings here and I have even made the pilgrimage to BOwling Green KY for the factory tour and National Corvette Museum (I have yet to find a Honda, Toyota ,etc National Museum like the Corvette one in the US), but that is another story.

One point that I like to stress is the older crowd that has lived through some of the fire breathing days of American Muscle as well as driven Corvettes, Vipers, or tricked out Camaros such as the ILE equipped cars realize that the kiddies that go off about their Godlike imports as being the only game in town will find "they" have a lot to learn.

I feel the good technical posts that discuss technology can help straighten out the flat assertions that are made by magazine reading/no real life experience teenies and others. For instance in the Corvette world, the engine technology introduced in 1990 for the Vette as the optional engine (LT-5 the 4 cam, 32 valve Lotus/GM developed super engine) could run up against anything virtually in the world in its price range for technology. Now with even classic pushrod designs as the LS6 as used in the last few years ZO6 is still good technology.

I get uptight trying to even discuss some of this, but hopefully, collectively, some of the less enlighted kiddies will see that American technology is not in the dark ages. I don't even think about an aqcuaintance I used to see at Corvette shows that had this killer twin turbo with Nitrous 1987 Corvette that had a trap speed of over 140 miles per hour in the 1/4. He just laughed at just about anything he ran into on the street (yes his car was streetable) and found more fun trouncing Porsche 911 turbos, and would see anything Japanese (NSX, Supras, etc) as "insects".

But that that would just be one person's experience, not mine. My Vette since it is essentially stock would find competition out there for sure(heck it is 1990 L98 model, but still lots and lots of fun and plenty fast for me), I just don't really want to street race as it is too dangerous (must be the parent in me, since I have a kid).

Regards,

90BlackBeast

posted by  90BlackBeast

Take a good look at my car. '90 taurus. been totalled 4 times. Still is more reliable than half my friend's cars. My ex g/f, who had a '89 honda accord, had her car break down every other week! first the oil pump, then the power breaks, then some ignition circuitry, and it has 40,000 less miles than my car. And my parents '94 probe has 200,000 miles, original engine and clutch. NO major engine repairs done. Ever. If thats not reliable, im not sure what is.

And it bothers the hell outa me when ricers include NOS as their HP rating. You see a civic with NOS on the high-way, it doesn't have 600 HP, it has 200 HP, and for 30 seconds it recieves a 400 HP boost that will ruin the engine. As opposed to a 427 hemi big block that has 600 hp CONTINUOUS. NOS is hardly technology. It has been around since the 60's. and it was introduced in america, when a racing team used it to win NASCAR races, untill it was banned. If a 'vette wanted HP, it could go get NOS and get +1000 hp, just as easily as the beloved skyline could.

Now granted, japanese cars have advantages over american cars, and vice versa. But its not fair to compare a stock vette, to a skyline with $50,000 worth of mods. I say, dollar for dollar, not including NOS, most american muscle can outperform imports.

And must I remind you, that virtually all supercars are NOT japanese, the only main one being the NSX, which is an underpowered supercar, despite its excellent engineering and handling. 290 HP from a 3.2 V-6? I'd rather have the ZO6 with 405HP 5.7 V-8. (and the 'vette actually weighs less than the NSX, giving it a better weight/power ratio)

:2cents:

posted by  GhettoTaurus

My post on the reliablity is old and I was not thinking when I wrote it...I allready got put on probation dealing with it so...

posted by  StiMan

Yup, I believe that ones over and done with now...by quite a few weeks? :banghead:

posted by  Cliffy

mann...imports...cuz it looks better too...im not all about the speed like that....but looks alone makes imports more eye catching...expecially to girls haha nah meannsss ;]

posted by  soljahx

That was what I thought, but GhettoTaurus wished to rekindle it.... :banghead: :evil:

posted by  StiMan

Not being a japanese import fan, but more of an american and euro fan, I would side with the muscle cars. Personally I think both japanese and american sport cars look cool but american cars have a bonus to it and that is the toughness it has and japanese cars don't. Like the upcoming Mustang Gt in 2005, dam* that car looks great.

posted by  depthblade

Two words for you: Slant Six. Look it up sometime.

posted by  CivilDisobediet

You get me a Skyline and i'll put to it. I have a 69 Supercharged 509cid Yenko runnning high 7sec. And IT STILL WEIGHS 2800 lbs. Ok American Muscle All the Way. Peace.




Ps It has almost 1800hp

posted by  kazmihasi

I'm getting the De-javu feeling here...I'm sure my last post in this thread was saying that, that is over with now...STiMan? :banghead: :banghead: :ticking: :ticking:

posted by  Cliffy

What! What is that I hear? O! The noob alarm! Because my role model, vwhobo, has left I will take his spot...you dumb*ss! I am afraid that you are 2 MONTHS :banghead: LATE ON YOUR REPLY! WE FINISHED THIS DISCUSSION THAT LONG AGO! You need to learn to READ AFTER THE POSTS! AND TO ACTUALLY THINK BEFORE TYPING....

As to your comment:
Do you really know how to look up something? I would be greatly surprised if you can actually read....O! You cant! Because you didnt even care to read all of the other replies from that same statement that people have made, and I have politely told to forget it...not this time! Yeeesh! :ticking: :screwy: :evil: :cussing: :banghead:

You just got told! You: :doh:
Me: :laughing:

Note: Please insert a pimp slap post after this....Thanks!

posted by  StiMan

I'm Rick James B*tch

posted by  Voda48

Lol...
"You dont want old Gill going door to door...I have made too many enemies selling suck-less vacuum-cleaners and Rick James Bibles..." --The Simpsons

posted by  StiMan

thats the first smart thing i've read on here yet

posted by  ihaterice

Thanx for sharing your vast knowledge of cars with us..I'll tell you what would be a relly smart move...click
here (http://www.car-forums.com/talk/forumdisplay.php?f=25) to find out all about it :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

Nice...just like Naked Women...

posted by  StiMan

most of you people are also forgetting that most jap cars are meant to HANDLE good too, (thats why they dont have big motors) not just go in a straight line, ever hear of DRIFTING, there are NO muscle cars that are used for drifting because a V8 is too heavy, and lemme tell you, it takes way more skill to keep you car sideways in a turn when ur rear wheels arnt gettin traction then it does to look at a 'tac and shift when the needle hits the red. so i say that BOTH rice and muscle are cool, i like to see (and hear) a chevy with a 454 roaring down the street just as much as i like to hear the pppppiiiiittttsshhhh of the blow off valve of a turbo comin from a rice rocket, except, i dont like when ppl take regular hondas and rice em out, Acuras are ok if your gonna race hondas, but thats it. just get a car like mine, Talons are the same car as an eclipse, but chrysler remade the motor (420A), so my car is jap and american!!! :smoke:

posted by  Talon TSi

I have heard that Talons are really hard to get parts/ service for because they are no longer made...is this true?

posted by  StiMan

no way man, its not an RX-7, ahaha, not baggin on RX-7's tho, they kick ass, anyway, Eclipes and Talons are mechanically identical, so its very easy to find parts for, i have a 2nd gen DSM, so any part off a 95-99 eclispse will bolt onto my car, i love turbo AWD too, you know wut im talkin about :hi:

posted by  Talon TSi

Turbo + AWD + Japanese Car Company = Subaru :thumbs:
Turbo + AWD = Talon ( I guess...)

posted by  StiMan

My car is more mitsubishi than anything else, Chrylser stole the eclipse and changed its name, made it AWD and turbo. thats the only differnace, and the N/A Talons have a different motor (420A) i just got a 4g63 off an Evo VIII. STi's are my 2nd favorite car, there's one in my town that runs 11's off 20 psi of boost, its froggin kick a$$

posted by  Talon TSi

How did Chrysler get the Eclipse? (Am I just being stupid...cuz I dont know)

posted by  StiMan

Dont forget, like most other countries in the world, the Japs are our bitches. So if we want the Eclipse, they give us the Eclipse. And thats the bottom line.

:laughing:

posted by  Talon TSi

Uh huh...

posted by  StiMan

Wow, this topic last very long, i didnt realize that there was so much tension in between these two contry cars. First off, both cars are suporior in their own ways, now i have not read all these post, so forgive me if i repeat sumthing alrdy sed. It is true, muscle cars put power into there cars, but there power come weight. Jap imports come "weak" but the reason is being, most cars like.. skylines, and stuff are suprisingly driven as a daily car. So the big companies there make there car weak for reasons, but give them lots of mods. In the US, muscles are strong, i admit, but have u seen them corner? Not the best. But their 1320 runs are impressive for there power. But over in japan their cars werent meant onyl for the straights. Now this is a little off topic but.... dodge, chevy, n ford, n them all made cars for straights, liek the nascar trakcs n stuff. But japanese made their for circuit tracks. Thruth is.. a 210 hp trueno came only .5 secs from a tie with a 550 hp charger on circuit. on the take of... was a straight, where the charger took first, then it came to 12 turns, and the trueno in first, then by the last lap after the last turn the trueno was in first by 8 secs, but on the straght the charger passed it by the smallest inch ever. dont believe me? i dun care. But then agin... ive seen 500 hp muscles own 600 imports on the 1320. i race a 250 hp celica (not the best) in minnesota. I've beaten sum muscles and lsot to sum. but if u think about it.. this subject isnt worth arguing about. btw i am not siding, jsut simply telling taht.. if usa has fast technology, japanese would get its sooner or later. if jap has fast tech, usa would get it later too. So... pretty much, jap vs usa should be a quote left to use with pearl harbor n ww2

posted by  Japan vs USA

poh and by the way..(not taking sides) the turbo charger was first used in the 34rft military truck fro jap. i think it was only 15 psi though...

posted by  Japan vs USA

I aint going to read all that, but since you only have a post count of 2 and there are 2 posts here by you, you need to introduce yourself before I will read anything! :banghead: :cussing: :thumbs:

posted by  StiMan

couple of things to say here.
1. in 1973 the way HP was measured in the usa changed from gross, ie on the rig without altenator, waterpump, etc to in the car SAE, then later to DIN. isnt 350 the CUI????

Power to weight is the key http://www.motobykz.co.uk/Bike_tests/Tiger_Z100.htm

proves my point 2 small motor bike engines and its the fastest 0-62 car in the world.

V8's are simple design, gives low down horses, but a big block V8 weighs more than the whole of my car. They arnt very thermally efficent,look out for the RX8. Got to be a car of the furtre.

your choice

posted by  cinqyg

Just to get off the subject here, why do people insist on spelling the word tire as "tyre" A tire goes on an automobile. Tyre is a geographical place here on planet earth. :screwy: Anyway it's on that site.. :doh:

posted by  DodgeRida67

You people just don't get it. What are we comparing? Muscle or speed? Those are two different things and you people are trying to make it into one thing and arque over it. :banghead: If it's muscle, American V8's hands down. If it's speed, import hands down. :sleep:

That's the story right there. Simple as that. :ticking:

12 pages over something simple as that?

posted by  DodgeRida67

because us brits spell "tyre" that way, replacing the "i" with a "y"

posted by  SuperJew

Well you Brits are wrong. It's tire. If you want to call it Tyre might as well call it Canada since they're both countries. I think it's a country, might be a place within a country but you get the point. :screwy:

posted by  DodgeRida67

look, asscheese, in this situation there is no "right" and "wrong" its simply choice of language. do you thing spelling centre the way we do is wrong? how about fibre? or litre? ignorant fool.

posted by  SuperJew

go super:



I think you goto own up Mr American, that being english us britsh and english men/women have a little more authority on the matter. If you look up "Tyre" or "Colour" in an international english dictionary then were right and your wrong :fu:

posted by  cinqyg

Fine. Tyre then. Don't have to go name calling over it.

posted by  DodgeRida67

Shut it, t*sser, I'm the Brit with authority in here lol...j/k :thumbs:

There's no right or wrong..end of story, only thig that we spell correctly is 'Cheque' (the bank sort)...and lets face it, where ever you guys in the States put.....no, I'm gonna make a thread about this lol :ticking:

posted by  Cliffy

:clap: FINALLY!
Asscheese: never heard that before... good one SJ :thumbs:

posted by  StiMan

Im the brit with beer!

posted by  cinqyg

I believe that in the jdm, the govt or the automakers have a deal such that no car can be produced stock with more than 300hp, mainly to prevent hp wars.
But, to add fuel to the fire, ill go ahead and say imports>>>>>>american muscle :fu: :laughing: :thumbs:

posted by  importluva

It depends on what kind of import and muscle car.for example a civic a skyline..the skyline is alot more powerful..u gotta be mroe specific. But i think muscle because they just come with alot more power

posted by  RUSTYL

whats goods power if the wheels just spin?
what goods power if the tail gets raged all the time?

posted by  cinqyg

I would just like to remind everyone about the scene in Too Fast Too Furious where the American Muscle cars get owned by the Evo and the Eclipse... sorry it had to come to that... but jeez... :2cents:

posted by  StiMan

I dont think that we can rely on Hollywood as a creditable source. Even so they had the "burners" smoked till the God Almighty Holy NOS kicked in. Even then they were shit out of luck. Don't rely in hollywood for that one my friend.

posted by  Voda48

well why dont we sort this one out the good old fashioned way, 1 strip, 1 track lets see what we have in the way of car resorces and see what happens.

posted by  cinqyg

I don't think that will solve anything. You'll end up with some tricked out Rice burner and some Mopar car running a blown engine putting out 800hp. I don't think one race will solve anything at all. nice try though :thumbs:

posted by  Voda48

Grand Turismo any one?? that way we could do it on the net!

posted by  cinqyg

You have a car that weighs less than 700 lbs total? That's the weight of a big block V8. And engines like the Ford 5.0 with aluminum heads weighs about the same as a 13B rotary with the turbo and intercooler (that's right around 400 lbs). I can guarantee that you don't have a car that weighs 400 lbs.

posted by  ChrisV

The first production cars with turbochargers were the Chevy Corvair and Old's Jetfire with the all aluminum 3.5 liter V8. Both arrived in 1962, and stayed in production for a few years.

Alfred Büchi patented the turbocharger idea in 1905, and the first working units in Europe were delivered in 1924 for ship use. In the United States, Dr. Sanford A. Moss also proposed a turbocharger concept in the early 1910s and actually equipped an aircraft engine with a handmade "turbo-supercharger" that set an altitude record in excess of 33,000 feet in 1920.

IHI was Japan's first turbo manufacturer, using a license from Brown Boveri in Switzerland in the '50s(who partnered with Büchi in the '20s). Most turbochargers were for very large engines, primarily diesel engines. In 1938, the first turbocharged engine for trucks was built by the "Swiss Machine Works Saurer".

Here's a quote from this japanese site: http://www.turbo.co.jp/en/index.phtml

"After World War II, Ishikawajima Heavy Industries Co., Ltd. and Shibaura Turbine Co., Ltd. developed the IEG and LA turbochargers and started production in Japan in 1951. The picture shows an LA26 turbocharger, which had the leading performance and quality at that time. This turbocharger was installed on a generator diesel engine and was used till March 1987"

http://www.turbo.co.jp/common/images/aboutus_turbo_img02.jpg

posted by  ChrisV

ok, well not 700lb's but under 1000lb's its 430kg's the only piece of steel in are the track rod ends and the wheel bolts. even replaced the steel wet liners with silicon carbide, everything else is titanium, aluminum, carbon fibre, kevlar, s glass, magniesium, there are a few things that are stock like the tyres, but prety much everything else is a composite of one form or another. Street legal, built it to advertise our company.

nah doesnt weigh 400lb. the point is that how much does the tranny weigh for this 700lb engine, then you have the diff, which is also a fair lump of steel. its posible to eliminate so much weight with a bit of simple enginnering.

posted by  cinqyg

Although Gran Turismo is marketed as 'the real driving simulator' I think it's far too unrealistic...in many ways lol :banghead:

posted by  Cliffy

Very true... I was just trying to make a comparason... but yes... I did realize that too....

posted by  StiMan

Well its the best we have to work with. Its a bit like a ford mondeo.

posted by  cinqyg

guyz u gotta check out the fiero
v6 with room for a v8 :thumbs:
import styling
and plenty of $ left for mods
but im still behind american muscle
cuz i dont give a care about JAP CRAP :fu: :fu:

posted by  nitehawk_87

I may just be stupid, but (I did look it up on google and if it is what that brought up it looks like cr*p), or if it is not:
WHAT THE H*LL IS A FIERO?

posted by  StiMan

a Fiero was Pontiac's attempt at making a mid-engined car. it was a POS because their engines would catch on fire until the later models, but only about one year of the good models were produced until they discontinued the line. here's a pic.

http://www.ryanwright.com/fiero/86se3800sc/car1.jpg

posted by  SuperJew

The pic didnt come up for me... but from your description the POS pics of POS Cars off google where Fieros... Thanks!

posted by  StiMan

How old are you? You must've come out in the 80's...

posted by  xj220

Old enough to realize that car is a POS... Midengine... cant be good in a American...

posted by  StiMan

Fieros have been the basis for a number of great race cars, and of course, make excellent basis for kit cars, due to the removeable bodypanels.

http://www.houscca.com/solo2/images/fiero.jpg[/img]

There are a couple companies making V8 conversion kits for them, as well as supercharger and turbo kits for the V6. The only bad ones were the first year ('84) cars, as the transmissions were bad, the fuel system tended to rupture and cause fires, and the manufacturing had not perfected the body panels.

The cars were [i]supposed to be sports cars, the way the opriginal project planners and engineers envisioned, but GM upper management didn't want another sports car to compete with the Corvette. So the project planners regrouped, grabbed basic parts bin stuff, and sold it to management as an economical commuter car. After they got it in production, then they could go about turniong it back into a sports car/GT. They changed the engine, transmission, suspension, and body styling. The GTs were decent cars, with a lot of potential. And the Formula versions were excellent mid engine GTs right out of the box.

But they got a bad rap from the first cars, and never were allowed to rise above that. Which makes them cheap cars to buy, and easy cars to upgrade.

The Fiero was engineered very similarly to every other inexpensive mid engine car on teh market, from teh X1/9 to the MR2: an existing FWD sedan was used to get the entire drivetrain from, moved to the back, then simple fromt suspension was used. In the case of the Fiero, the front suspension was simple struts, originally sourced from the Chevette (which was based on a European Opel). The MR2 used struts from the Corolla, and the X1/9 used bits from the Fiat 128. The Fiero got some Lotus tuning later in it's product cycle, and everything done to them could be backdated, or even better aftermarket parts could be used.

http://www.v8archie.com

http://www.v8archie.com/dburns1.jpg

http://www.v8archie.com/dburns2.jpg

http://www.v8archie.com/dburns5.jpg

http://www.v8archie.com/chopfs.jpg

http://www.v8archie.com/3-11-5.jpg

http://www.v8archie.com/mvc-166fm.JPG

http://www.v8archie.com/MVC-172F.JPG

posted by  ChrisV

True story. My dads friend had a fiero, loved the car, had kept it for over 10 years before the engine went. They were decent cars for their day and age.

posted by  Voda48

Take ya'lls word for it... IMO they look pretty bad.... :2cents:

posted by  StiMan

so did almost everything in the 80s :mrgreen:

posted by  Voda48

A lot of respectable people say the same thing about WRXs.

True enthusaists aren't so shallow.

posted by  ChrisV

True, true.... sorry, but this is what I am like..

True Gregg about the 80s...

posted by  StiMan

Not everything looked rubish in the 80's....some Japanese cars looked quite desirable...IMHO, although, at the time they obviously looked cool too...not that I remember though lol

Anyways, I've reluctantly decided to close this topic, and I'm still not sure I'm doing the right thing....It just seems to me that the point has been made, numerous times, and the stats speak for themselves in that both Muscle cars and Japanese imports are equal, both offering pros and both offering cons. This thread is also getting far too long, and lets face it, it's just going to either go 'round in circles or it's gonna become full of crap....like 25% of it already is lol. If anyone disagrees, feel free to PM me :thumbs:

::Click::

posted by  Cliffy

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