Corvette or Skyline...?

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Ok, to make this clear to begin with, THIS IS NOT a post to see whether Japanese or American cars are better, it is to compare two (or three, depending upon how you look at it) modern day super cars and their pros and cons. The cars in question are the C5/ZO6 corvettes and the R34 GT-R V spec Nissan skyline. What I want to know are the various advantages/disadvantages of these two cars and of course peoples experiences with these cars.

Corvette:
ZO6 0-60 around 4.1 secs
C5 0-60 around 4.6 secs
Straight-line speed is unrivaled by the skyline
Engine is tunable to BHP fast in excess of that of the skyline
2 seater super car, less practical but who cares…



Skyline.
0-60 5.1 secs
Unrivaled handling
4 wheel drive gives excellent launches
4 seater super car, more practical but the car weights 100lbs more because of it.

(theres alot i've left out. but i can't remember what it is right now.. :doh: )
Feel free to add what ever you see fit. Thanks. :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

do you want opinion or fact-based which is better?

My Opinion: I prefer the 'Vette, as i prefer V8 power.

Facts: it depends on what you want and need...if you have a family of 4 the Skyline would be better. if you're a bachelor the 'Vette would be more practical. in a way.

posted by  SuperJew

lol, na SJ, i don't have a family, hell i don't even have a girlfriend right now!! (i'm working on that one, but i'm more confused about girls than i am about these two cars...) i really liked the idea of a skyline before i read the imports Vs american muscle, but like you i now prefer the idea of V8 power, plus over here in the UK i think a vette will be a little more special. i suppose what i am really after is a car which i can tune into a road legal race car. i was looking at the 1/4 mile times for the two cars, and a 725bhp vette is about equal to a 1100bhp skyline. if i need something for towing i have my dads 4x4 and if i need a saloon i can jus borrow the car i have at the moment that my mum is going to have once i buy my next car.. all that worries me really is the handling, but i suppose a suspension package will sort that out easily enough.. :thumbs: oh, and i was kinda after fact based opinions about the cars.. if that makes much sense.. thanks. :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

I chose the Corvette.

posted by  archangle

Hard decision the Vette is the shit the Skyline is to me a completely differant car. The skyline has all the moder technology all wheel drive comes turbod so easy to upgrade. They are aslo very uncommon to see compared to vettes whcih i see like ten every day the Vette is for people who want to go fast the skyline is for people who have enough money to wipe there ass with and like very exotic cars. So IMO its a tie.

posted by  boosted99si

hmmm... thats why i started this thread coz i couldn't decide which was the better car. over here i see a vette or a skyline no more often than once every month or so.. also i think if you say you drive a skyline some/most people who arn't fluent in cars will wonder what it is, where as if you say you have a vette, people will definatly know what that is.. :laughing:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

it all depends what your doing with the car... if ur a dragster (no skill all money) the vette is wat you want... if your a driver with skill (drifting) youll prefer the skyline... anyone can drag... not everyone ca drift...
"speed doesn't kill, its the sudden stop that does it... " <-----wrong speed doesnt kill... thats right but... its the shitty drivers out there that do... learn how to drive mofos

posted by  [>.<]

Ha! In your case learning to produce complete sentences and think critically would be a good first step. If you had even a reasonable grip on the facts, you'd know that drag racing requires just as much skill as drifting, they are just DIFFERENT skills. And if you think it takes more money to build a drag car than a drift car you are seriously lost.

Go back and read your magazines a little bit closer.

posted by  vwhobo

Someone failed english 8. :laughing: :laughing: . Get use to his assault If your gonna keep making stupid comments, I for one have no room to talk so just think before you speak.
btw. hobo, you know anything about rotory engines? Im looking to buy an FC, you know of anyone that can rebuild or sell cheap 13B's? :thumbs:

posted by  jzxTT

I probably know just a little bit more about rotaries than I'll admit to, but I won't admit to knowing very much. My guess is if you wait around a little while some chest beater will come along and tell you all about them whether their information is correct or not.

As for where to get one built, I know there are several places in the states who can handle that in a professional manner but can't make any personal recomendations. Your best bet would be to search the net and make some calls.

posted by  vwhobo

Normally I'm one to defend drifting as being a skill sport. But in your case, I'm going to tell you to put down the video games and join the real world before spouting of idiotic (and mostly incomprehensible) crap.

Drifiting isn NOT about handling prowess. it's about driver skill in holding a car that is past it's traction limits to a defined course. it's impressive, it's skillful, but it is NOT about handling.

And if you're the kind of crack baby that thinks a Corvette is only about drag racing because it's A) American and B) a V8 car, you really need to join the real world.

posted by  ChrisV

Ok, one of the first things I'll tell you is that you don't really want to have a local shop repairing your rotary, unless you're right next to Pettit Racing, Rotary Engineering, or Peter Farrell. But all of them are expensive.

Cheap rotary rebuilds (or cheap used rotaries) is an oxymoron. A cheap rebuild will last you a month if your'e lucky. A cheap used one might last longer, or it might last a few minutes.

The best current source of reliable rebuilt rotaries at a good price is Pineapple Racing: http://www.pineappleracing.com Seriously, if these guys had been around when my FC died, it might not have ever ended up a V8 car. these guys seriously know what they are doing. Their prices are failry reasonable and most importantly, they are warrantied.

To learn more about rotaries, go to http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/index.html Good animations, and info on stock engines and info about all the different performance porting types. I can give you other info too, as I've owned an R100, RX2, 2 RX3s, 2 first gen RX7s and an FC RX7 that I raced in rotary form for the first year I owned it (before I converted it to a V8 powered autocross/street monster). I've rebuilt a few 12As as well as an early 13B (the 4 port version originally found in the RX4) for one of my early RX7s. Back in the day, it was dirt cheap to rebuild the engines. In the early '90s, it got real expensive for a while.

I also have all the specs on autocross alignment, and some other things to look for when looking for an FC (whether turbo or N/A). The turbo cars are the best for drivetrain and suspension, with much stouter parts all around, including larger brakes and swaybars. The sport and GTUs models have the brakes and suspension of the Turbos (4 piston finned aluminum front calipers and vented disks on all 4 corners), but don't have the heavier duty differntials and axles. As it turns out, however, even the N/A drivetrain parts are plenty strong. But the brakes are important.

There are 2 different FC series. the S4 ('86-88) and the S5 (89-91). A number of changes occured betweeen series, which can make it a PITA to swap parts sometimes. N/A engines went from 145 hp to 165 hp, and turbo engines went from 185 to 200 hp. Front bodywork changed, as did taillights. The electrical system is different, with the later cars being much less problematic. the later cars are slightly heavier, however, though the GTUs is very similar to the first year Sport model, in that it has less weight than the rest of the line (though you could still find them optioned up). If you get really concerned with weight, there is a rather random distribution of cars with aluminum hoods, which weighed a fraction of what the steel hood did. personally i feel that teh S5 cars are better for daily driveing, while teh S4 cars are better to make race cars from. In either case, heavily modded engines are NOT as reliable as other kinds of engines. Stock N/A ones CAN be reliable, but after about 120k, it's a crap shoot as to whether it'll die this week or 5 years from now...

Part of the issue is that rotaries don't need a lot of octane to keep from detonating, but they can't run lean. At all. Even one little "ping" can destroy an apex seal. Overheating them is very bad. And either of those two situations is the usual downfall of rotary cars of any year. There are other things that can go wrong, and most are documented on the team FC3S site.

Here's my FC when it was still in rotary form, right after I set it up for autocross...

http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2004-1-27/2068432-Chris%20Vb.jpg

This was after it was painted, but still in rotary form...

http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2004-1-27/2068432-Chris%20Vc.jpg

So, vwhobo, was that chest beating enough? ;)

posted by  ChrisV

Okay, I'm going to go back to the original subject.

Comparing a V-8 vette, to a I-6 Skyline is kind of an odd comparison. I would rather drive a Skyline than a Corvette personally, but its not just because I like the skyline more. One reason being the gearbox would be on the left hand side, I am right handed, so I would feel more comfortable driving with my right and shifting with my left(of course both hands go on the wheel after the shift). As far as power, the vette has the skyline stomped, but as far as visual aesthetics, I think the Skyline Looks better. As far as drifting, I'm sure you could make a vette into a damn good drift car. But, you can also make a skyline a damn good drag car. I would say it is purely up to what kind of person you are, if you like big muscle with low gas mileage, get the vette, if you like I-6's that get moderate gas mileage, with decent performance and excellent handling, skylines would be your thing.

The vette is way more bang for your buck, considering getting a skyline r34 in america is atleast 20,000$ more than a vette z06.

Personally, my favorite car is the 4 door skylines.

posted by  Integra_LS

Do you now or have you ever driven a RHD car? When you do you just might find out you feel LESS comfortable shifting with you left hand. While your assumption may be correct, you're using faulty logic to reach your conclusion.

posted by  vwhobo

I know I've never driven a RHD vehicle (nor have I sat in one)...are the pedals in the same config as LHD or are they mirrored?

It would feel REALLY odd to depress the clutch with my right foot and the "go" pedal with my left!

I realize how ignorant this question is...btw.
.
.

posted by  BavarianWheels

The pedals are in the same relative position only on the other side of the tunnel (obviously). I find it no easier or harder to drive a RHD car. However, for some reason when living in England I found it more difficult to drive a RHD articulated lorry (18-wheeler). Perhaps the more cumbersome shifter of the truck combined with the nerve damage to my right shoulder.

posted by  vwhobo

I'm sorry to hear that you're right shoulder's damaged. Would that affect the difficulty of driving a right-hand drive articulated lorry for you because you keep one hand on the stick and steer with one hand instead of having both hands on the wheel?

posted by  snoopewite

How about the gear pattern for the RHD? I wonder if my left hand pulling down from 1st to 2nd (on a "normal" H pattern), I would tend to pull it into 4th instead...???
.
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posted by  BavarianWheels

Don't be sorry Snoope. Race motorcycles, get hurt, deal with it. I think it was harder simply because they're not as easy to shift as a car and it's a very long pattern.


The gear pattern is the same, at least in everything I ever drove.

posted by  vwhobo

yeah, i agree, although i drive a RHD everyday i do prefer to shift with my right hand. anyway, the vette/skyline question... i'll get roasted for this.. :guns: ..but, there are RHD vettes arn't there, or have i just got a really really bad memory? although i would prefer a LHD corvette a RHD one would be safer to drive on our roads and also much easier to sell afterwards... i'm not comparing the two cars as i made clear at the beginning of this thread, i just wanted to know which is more livable with etc.. does anyone know the gas milage a vette would get? some one over here recons that he can get 30mpg running on shell optimax fuel..(98 octane)

reasons i like the vette..
V8 torque band, V8 sound
much better looking car, more typical supercar silouette
with good (adjustable) suspension set-up will handle however you want it too..
engine more tunable.. hmmm.. i recon i answered my own question really.. anyhow, you might as well post your own opinions.. :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

I know there are Vettes converted to RHD, but I don't think GM builds any with that configuration.

30 mpg might be doable under certain conditions but not during what would be considered normal driving.

posted by  vwhobo

Nope, pedal arrangement is the same, only the shifter is on the "wrong" side. The first time I drove a friend's Isuzu 117 Coupe (one of 3 in the US) it was odd to get used to driving from what felt like the passenger side. Starting out wasn't too bad, but mentally you want to reach down with the right hand to shift, and all that's there is door panel... ;)

When I drove a RHD VW Bus over to a VW show/swap meet to sell, I found another hard bit: when changing lanes, you tend to move to where you're visually used to being in a lane, which leaves the vehicle a bit too far to the left. This is kind of scary the first time you encounter jersey barriers on the left side, as it's hard to judge whether you're going to scrape on them.

I'm sure it gets easier after using it for a few days, though.

posted by  ChrisV

i don't think you would, if you had to learn to shift with a diffrent hand you tend to empasise the movement more and push away from you slightly as you pull back into 2nd.. theres a tractor i drive and theres a gearlever on each side of the seat, one for conventional gears and the other is a ratio box and you have to change both leavers at the same time.. (yes, take both hands off the steering wheel...) i don't know why the japanese designed it like that.. it's crap if you ask me.. anyway, i would say that neither hand is harder to change gear with, but using your right hand just feels slightly better for some reason..

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

Are the shift patterns mirrowed as the pedals are. Like top left 1st, btm lft 2nd for the RHD's, as an example ?

posted by  lectroid

yeah.. everything is the same, it's jus moved over to the opposite side.. top left is 1st, bottom left is 2nd.. ok, strange question, but on a focus or vw golf, which side of the steering wheel are your indicator stalks on? ours are on the left. actually when you look at it the gearlevers are not changed at all in most cases. they not only mantain the same shift pattern, they also matain the same location.

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

No, the config will stay the same but bear in mind that different manufacturers build cars with the reverse gear configuration slightly different to others and obviously there is a difference in 4, 5 and 6 speed cars..the general config should still be the same though and not mirrored or at least that's how it was in all Left hookers I've driven!

posted by  Cliffy

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot to answer the thread lol..sorry for the double post and another sorry coz I didn't see R34RB answer lectroid before me...okay that's enough sorry's lol

I would go for a Skyline over a Corvette but only because I dont like vettes and that's only my oppinion by the way, I like the idea of the Technology the R34 offers aswell as the tunability, that's not to say I dont think a Vette could be tuned because I know only too well it could be, but having said that, a while ago I would have bought any Jap car over a US car but now I'm the same as you R34 in that I'd deffinately consider a muscle car...just not a Corvette :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

Personally I would go with the Vette over the Skyline, but i'm a fan more of the V8 engines, and bigger car. The bigger the car the more protection that you have just in case that you might crash. Also the vette can handle almost as good as the skyline with the right modifications and skilled driver.

posted by  bennie154

lol.. don't take this the wrong way but do you have any proof of this? its just that i would like to see it for myself, not that I don't believe you...! also the vette is approx. 100lbs lighter so this will benefit it in some ways.



I’ve seen pictures of crashed skylines and they fold like they were made of cardboard, however the vettes seem to hold together better in a crash. I realize how unscientific my conclusion is to just be looking at pictures, but I believe that American safety standards are far higher than those in Japan.

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

ummmm i hate to break it to you but a 725 hp vette isnt gonna beat a 1100 bhp skyline. hp is hp man no matter what way u look at it. the vette probably runs a 10 sec quarter .... but depending on the driver and the skylines setup ... id imagine that skline (if done properly) will run high 8's - low 9's .... not to mention the skyline weighs alot less then the vette allowing it to get off the line much faster. But cost efficient wise ... the vette would be better since the skyline will cost you 75 grand in the us to get and about 50 grand in mods.

posted by  killertenks

And im going to love breaking this to you.. you need to go introduce yourself before you throw your hat into the ring. its just common courtesy here.

i would go with the vette, i like the styling, the hertiage, and the power, i like the way the looks of the vette flows, and i just tend to favor coupes a little more. :thumbs:

posted by  vanyaviper

Too late, his hat is in the ring and i'm going to jump on in... Now, 1st one of the the Lingenfelter Corvettes has 725 bhp, it does the 1/4 mile in 9.17 secs, the Do-Luck 1200 bhp R34 Skyline however does it in 9.7 odd... Bhp is for bragging rights, torque is what gets you down the strip fast, and the vette has more of it across a bigger range of rpm's... :smoke: 2nd, the vette is 100lbs lighter infact... :hi: 3rd, go introduce yourself in the (shock horror) "introduce yourself" section... :banghead:

Completley agree... :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

as they say, "there is no replacement for displacement"

:thumbs:

posted by  SuperJew

Indeed.. *sulking* :cry:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

I just love Rice Rockets....the Skyline in my book!

posted by  StiMan

I may be biased, but with the 50 year history the Corvette is for me. I realize the Skyline has been in multigenerations in Japan, but not in North America, the ones over here have been modified from "wrong side of the road" to North American drive. I still feel the Corvette is a proven sports car, while the Skyline is really a hopped up 4 door sedan.

The Skyline has gained alot of attention, even in Corvette circles, because the heavily modified units that crop up as described on the Internet.

The reality of the Automotive business is, if the Skyline could have realistically competed with Corvette for sales of over 1,000,000 units from 1953 onwards, Nissan would have taken a stab at the world's largest market (North America) long ago, but choose not to. There is good profit in Corvettes for GM. It will be interesting to see the possible introduction of the Skyline from the variation of the Infinity/G35/ which has been talked about. They will have to massage the hell out of that production unit though to compete with the rumored 500 horsepower regular production Z06 which is expected from GM. Tweaking a smaller engine to high horsepower is of course possible, but getting that kind of horsepower to get good mileage (to avoid the gas guzzler tax (which Corvette excapes), and provide an engine that has the robustness of the Corvette V8.

Apart for bantering about 400, 600 800 horsepower etc. Skylines were probably an image piece for Nissan for bragging rights in the Japanese equivalent of Showroom stock racing. Of course, GM used the Corvette as it's siren song car as well. Corvette of course in North America had the Challenge series due to be forced out showroom stock racing in its class, because Corvettes kept winning virtually every race for several years in the late 80's.

The Corvette C5-R used at places like Lemans and Sebring, show GM is finally getting back into the act. Alot of people think just because GM was not willing to spend the money to race as much in the past, they are "not good enough". It comes down to, how do you get customers, if you don't have to do high profile racing to sell product, then why spend so much money. Such notables as the late John Lingenfelter and Callaway Cars (who have done remarkable engineering (such as the C4 ~1000 HP Sledgehammer that tops out at >250 miles per hour, yet has air conditioning, automatic transmission, and could have been driven by an old lady to the grocery story if need be).

As I said, I am biased, but unlike alot of people that think slapping on badges, and very large exhaust tips (fine as a statement if you are 16 years old, but I prefer real performance enhancements, not "all show and no go")-for instance, my Corvette doesn't even have a spoiler on the rear deck, it doesn't need one, as the design team didn't put it on as part of the original design, yet that body has been pushed to speeds of excess of 190 miles per hour.

I can appreciate young people putting on some decorative things on their car, I did that with some white stripes on my Dodge Omni I had got out of University. But tacky tasteless add ons can ruin a car's design lines.

I think balance, i.e. where the imports have provided some very dependable, well engineered cars, but to try to make an economy sporty 2 door or 4door into a real sports car is living in a fantasy world. All the serious very exotic sports cars such as Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, and even Corvette are back wheel drive, front drivers are find for packaging and weight/cost savings, but not seen in CART, INDY, NASCAR, F1, etc. There is a REASON.

Now it is realized that all wheel Drive has many good purposes, and while I beliieve the Skyline is AWD, this is not the norm.

I am not sure where the original poster was that was trying to decide between a Corvette or Skyline, but I would think at least in the North American marketplace, the Corvette would be the way to go.

CorvetteForum has some nice pics of the new C6, and information by Hib Halverson(an automotive writer) at the Corvette Action Center on the C6 should help in a decision.

Best regards,

90BlackBeast

posted by  90BlackBeast

jesus! thats like a whole thesis...

posted by  SuperJew

Oops,

Forgot to introduce myself here:

48 years old, male, from Canada (west GTA Toronto area)
Own three cars (1990 Black ZF 6speed Corvette Coupe with L98 engine (the fun toy), 1992 Dodge minivan, 1997 Plymouth minivan).

Hobbies: Corvettes and computers (though not at the same time!).

Mission:

1. To understand a bit more about the import crowd, why there is a "Grand Canyon" between the American classic muscle cars and sport cars like Viper and Corvette.

2. to Learn about 1999, 2000 or so Honda Accords as I may get one to replace my older van, I figure the Hondas are nice, dependable transportation that would be great as a sedan.

I will admit:"anything" can be made fast with enough money, I even got a laugh out video i saw once of a Chysler minivan out dragging a late model Camaro Z28 at a drag strip, but that would not change my mind about which regular production vehicle I would rather drive for fun (obviously the Camaro), as I find my two minvans great for transportation, but they just don't put a smile on my face i.e. boring. I try to live in reality world, not fantasy.

All the best!

90BlackBeast

posted by  90BlackBeast

Don't want to rag you but one intro is plenty. That's better than the many jerk-offs who don't give one at all. :clap:

posted by  vwhobo

Nice intro, and an interesting position.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with the mentality that came up with this commentary. As someone who grew up following and participating in the SCCA in the '70s, I fully remember economy cars that were very successful road racers and rally cars. Do you remember the original Mini Cooper? Originally the quintissential economy car, once John Cooper got a hold of it, it became a force to be reckoned with in the world of motorsports, often beating much larger cars. It is STILL a viable race car choice. Oh, and it's FWD (and the prototype for all transverse engine, FWD cars we have today)

Pete Brock was very successful racing the Datsun 510 sedan in Trans Am road racing, and set the stage for a Japanese sedan performance era that has never looked back. Where did Pete Brock gain his fame? Working for Shelby American as designer (he penned the 427 CObra and the Cobra Daytona Coupe).

While Honda's first 4 whel vehicle was an F1 racer, their first production car was a traditional sports car. Given the extensive motorsports history of the company, even by the late '60s, it's no surprise that when the N600 sedan was replaced by the Civic in 1973, it was introduced to the world with a racing debut at Daytona, where the 1200cc, stock body and chassis, FWD car went 148 mph. This car was the spiritual successor to the Mini Cooper, and became the basis for sucessful road racing cars for decades. Honda's CRX followed that success with more road racing and autocorss sucess, being able to beat cars like Corvettes on all but the longest, straightest tracks. While FWD may be a hindrance at the very top levels of motorsports, until you GET to that point, it really isn't, especially when the car it's packaged in is small, light and nimble...

Toyota produced numerous economy sedans in the '70s that were the basis for successful road race cars, from the Celica to the Corolla SR5 (that spawned the Corolla GTS in the '80s). They did battle with the small BMWs, Alfas, and the like on road race courses worldwide.

The point of all this? Economy cars make excellent bases to build performance road race and autocross cars from. Their chassis are stiff and strong, in order to meet crash safety standards, and NVH requirements. But by being light, it doesn't take as much power to make them fast, and it's easier to make them change direction (laws of inertia and all). It isn't a fantasy world that most of the members of SCCA, IMSA, or FIA live in.

[edit- Damn, there were a lot of typos... but then again, it was posted before I'm usually even awake...)

posted by  ChrisV

Very nice facts ChrisV! I found that very interesting and (by not making a stupid comment and by listening (that was for you vwhobo)) I have learned alot! Thanks!

posted by  StiMan

Hi ChrisV

Yes, your post was informative. One of the problems or writing email, is it is difficult to provide whole view points. My particular vision of a sports car leans more to the high powered expensive production vehicles such as Viper, Porsche, even Corvette (which I drive).

Sure, I might have come on a bit strong but from my vantage point, I havejaded experiences with so called young kids in their fart piped econobox wannabees, that sound more like lawnmowers to me, trying to always drag me or blow by me to impress me (?) is where I got puzzled. As well, I realize today there are some really amazing packages such as the new WRX STI from Subaru which seems to be a car that is actually in need of a hood scope and a spoiler from its performance specs, I just cannot see a regular production model Honda Civic DL or Si or whatever being something equated to a Dodge Viper, or Corvettes. You would swear that alot of kids out there are trying to prove that. I just want to enjoy my car, not start some vendetta. I tried out a few late model Honda Accords such as the V6 model, and they seem nice and peppy (I actually would like one as a daily driver), but in all honesty, My Vette would destroy them both at stoplight to stoplight drags or on a winding road. It just pisses me off that the mentality out there with alot of young people that they just have to race every Mustang, Camaro, Corvette etc. as if there is something they have to prove.

Maybe at the cruise nights I attend, if some of these young kids want to know what real torque does to their butts (the ole pinned to the seat feeling which I love) when you slam the accelerator to the floor with a decent V8, I should offer some a ride? Dunno.

There is a gap to bridge, because at a classic and American car cruise I attend in my area, I saw 18-22 year olds go completely "ga ga" over a Mitsuibishi 3000 with a ~"150 HP" V6 ( i know, as the engine is similar to what I have in my two Chrysler minivans under the hood) and pass up even Corvette ZO6's as Chev Malibus or something, Completely unreal. Sure he Mitsu is a cute car, but it's no asphalt burner, at least this one that was at the cruise night near my car.

Thanks for letting me vent while on my soapbox.

Regards,

90BlackBeast.

posted by  90BlackBeast

That's what I've found from most of the Corvette owners who come out to the sports car events I've been to over the last couple decades. The problem with that is that sports cars, especially in the traditional sense, have never had hp as a defining factor. My MG Midget was a true sports car, yet it's 0-60 time was around 12 seconds. Felt a lot quicker, as it was so small. But cars like it, MGBs, Triumph TR3s, TR4s, Alfa Spyders, etc, were never defined by their 0-60, or whehter they were "powerhouses." Sports cars are about handling and agility. Corvettes are very powerful sports cars and GTs (depending on whether they are open cars or closed), but they are not the definition of sports cars.

Cars like my current driver are:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cvetters3/spyder02.jpg[/img]

Sport sedans have been that way, too. The defining cars of the breed were the early Alfa sedans, BMW 1600 and 2002, Datsun 510, and the like. Agile, small sedans that could be daily driven economically, and yet raced on road race courses on the weekends.

Modern sport compact cars came from that heritage.



And many of them do it successfully. Civics cheaply running 11 and 12 second quarter miles, due to light weight (and the DX is the lightest, a perfect base to swap the higher performance engine into). But again, the cars are really following the footsteps of cars like these:

http://www.sdsefi.com/features/civic1.jpg

Which will indeed be faster around an autocross course than a stock Z06 or Viper for about a tenth of the cost. Small, nimble, with a good power to weight ratio makes them a force to be reckoned with, and still be economical to build and own. The cars are not considered equal to Corvettes and the like in stock form, but as excellent, inexpensive bases to build very rapid cars from on the cheap.



Unfortunately, the mentality of the V8 guys over the years is what caused them to need to prove it. The mentailty that told all of us sport sedan and sports car racers that our cars were worthless because they were slow in stock form. The mentality that made the gearhead drag race V8 owners tell sports car and sport sedan owners that they "should have started with something fast to begin with." So a lot of us started building little cars that were quicker just to say, "well, if your car was so great, how come it just got beat by a cheaper 4 cyl car?"



Sad thing is, the fart tip phenomenon came from the fact that real racing sports cars and sport sedans over the decades DID sound like that. A relatively open exhaust on a built up 4 cyl tends to have a sound that V8 guys aren't used to. And if you've ever heard a racing rotary powered car (like an IMSA RX3 or SCCA RX7), it's insane. I've owned a number of rotary powered race cars, and from inside, it's like strapping a chainsaw on each shoulder and revving them up next to your ears...

Now, before you start thinking that I'm an apologist for ricers, I want to make it clear: I have built sport sedans for racing. I've also owned older Porsche race cars, and built up a number of V8 race cars and hot rods over the years. From my 302 powered Mazda RX7 to a couple big block domestics, to my current project, pictured in my sig: a 460cid Ford V8 powered BMW 6 series. The goal is a 600+ hp, street driveable, track day car for a total investment of under $10k.

But at the same time, I wouldn't mind having a Mazda323 powered Ford Fiesta as an autocrosser... And I can tell you how a rear wing on a Civic can lower lap times and make the car faster overall without adding a single horsepower...

There ARE idiot ricers out there, that know dick about the cars they own, much less anything else. And I have to defend American muscle to those guys. They are a very visible, loud [i]minority of sport compact owners, however, and we have to separate the truth about the cars from the idiocy of some of the owners.

posted by  ChrisV

I'm in the UK. Over here i can get a Z06 Vette for the same price as a R34 GT-R skyline and both will be about the same to insure. The Skyline will have more respect on the street but i'm mature enough to realise that the Vette although more understated (i'm sorry, but it's true when considering my age group) is a better car for it's money and even more so when it come to tuning it. I'm not interested in what car would win on the street because (as vwhobo or chris said) if your not on a track, your not a racer, your a fool. I'm more interested in what would be the best daily driver and combined track car but also be able to perform at the drag strip (thats where the skyline let itself down). Also due to the more traditional sports car lines i was won over by the Vette... :thumbs: However i am still open to any sugestions listing any other cars that meet the given catagorys. Budget is around £20,000 or $36,000, needs to be fast enought to pin you to the seat, have a good top end speed potential and be able to handle (modified or not)... Also must have a huge level of presence and shold shame most cars driven purely on looks alone... Don't want much do I? :laughing: lol.. Thanks. :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

I would go with the STi...it is the cheapest of the 3 ($30k)...got the power (300 hp.)...got the torque (300 lb. ft.)...the handling....and it is a daily driver...think about it, eh?

posted by  StiMan

For the money the Evo is a quicker car, faster, better handling and faster top end speed and like i said before subarus are getting pretty common over here..!!
I do like subarus but they just arn't my thing at the mo... :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

OK...thats cool....

posted by  StiMan

Sorry to put you down but i have 5 friends with Subarus and only one with and Evo. I like the Evo more because of it's wider torque band and it's more "hardcore" road manners. I like cars that don't make excuses for what they are and don't pretend to be anything they are not (just how i like people to be too..). The Evo has an unforgiving ride and will shake you about more than a Subaru but it's this dedication to its origin (WRC) that i admire.. :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

No! No put down at all! I am not at all offended by what you have said! I think that it is cool that you dont want to go with the crowd and such. I like the Evo as well. All most as much as the STi, but it doesnt have the power. (Over here it has 271 hp. vs. the STi's 300 hp.) When I said "thats cool" I meant it...I didnt get put down at all...dont be so hard on yourself!

posted by  StiMan

He he he.. Over here the Evo comes in 349 bhp version and it uses the original 2.0 litre engine so the weight is kept down.. Also there is a 316 bhp version of the Subaru avalible also retaining the original 2.0 engine.. A really good way to go if you don't want to follow the croud is to get a beetle.. No one (within reason) thinks thier fast, their old and light but my god they go when you put a 450 bhp n/a 2.5 flat four in them.. I would myself but i just don't consider them to be safe enough to withstand an impact from one of the many muppets that have been let loose on our roads..

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

What is the BHP of the Skyline in England?

To get the 1100 hp skyline in Cali, you have to drop some extra funds to pay for all of the smog permits.

While the Vette Z06 you just get a slight reduction in BHP due to the Smog laws in California.

posted by  Coffin Type R

sorry to break it to all you "Skyline ownz the Vette yo" people, but how many Skylines do you know that come from a tuner that does 0-60 in 1.6 Seconds? The word Linginfelter comes to mind throwing the Vette way past the Skyline where it shall remain for all of it's exsistance. (Unless GM does off with it like they did the Camaro and Firebird :cussing: )

posted by  Satty101

THe vette has been doing this sprotscar thing for so long that it is a supercar that doesn't cost $70,000 plus(unless you wanted a mod. Z06)

Stupid GM. Killing the Camaro and Firebird. :cussing:

Rumor is that they sent it to Germany for "Reengineering". If they did that and are going to put the Red, White, and Blue Badge back on , I going to come unglued :twisted:

posted by  Coffin Type R

Ok ChrisV,

I acknowledge your experience base, its far beyond what I have. I can also see that the term Sports Car can take on many meanings. It is interesting, but I had used the 50 plus years history example of the Corvette as being a current milestone (at least in North America) of how fanatical a group of owners can be. While it is very apparent to me as a whole, the Import scene seems to be a big gathering, it just seems all over the place, no real one brand. By this I mean, since you have been a car enthusiast, you are aware of things like the Corvette Museum, the hundreds and hundreds of Corvette Clubs, and other things that define "America's sports car" (a phrase used universally by many.

I may just be confusing the absence of one clear brand or model (in my opinion) in the import scene. I can tell you, for instance, if I was given a car for free, it would be very hard for me to pick a new econobox over a 4, 5 or even 10 year old Corvette. I just can't get passionately attached to a Honda, Toyota or other Japanese car.

What is interesting to note is why did the Supras, RX-7's etc come and go so quickly, especially since there cars could be made to terrors. Perhaps they didn't have soul. I have always wondered.

Nice little sports car you have, I am sure you have put alot of work into it. My visual knowledge is limited on these, you car looks like an Alpha Romeo.

One very clear point you raised is the "old V8 muscle car" drivers that may look down on an little import. There is a definite age difference between classic american Cruise night attendees and the import crowd car shows. I de respect someone that is done real performance mods to a small 4 cylinder engine, and sweated the details to generating real performance. I just can't stand ricers that try to line up with me a light a rev their engines when they are running virtually stock Honda Civics and the like. It is so pointless. From conversations on the Corvette Forum, this unfortunately happens more than imagined. Some say the kids just want to see the faster cars take off so they can see a spectacle..I dunno.

I am beginning to think that it may not be possible to bridge the gap between the two groups due to generational issues. I do know that from the Corvette Forum, there are some very young Corvette drivers, some as young as 17 for instance. But, in terms of new Corvette owners, the car is too expensive to purchase or insure for most young people as you can imagine, but as long as there are a supply of used ones, they can at least be bought down the road.

I guess different strokes for different folks.

Regards,

90BlackBeast

posted by  90BlackBeast

I was not aware of Lingenfelter producing Corvettes with that performance envelope from anything I have seen from various Corvette sources, but I have a Corvette video that is has an interview with Reeves Callaway of Callaway cars (Reeves refers to his company as a project engineering house). in Old Lyme Conneticutt USA. The Sledgehammer they had produced was driven to the Ohio Transportation Research facility from Reeves facility and run around the test track achieving a top speed of just over 254 miles per hour. Reeves on the tape indicated the car accelerated from 0 to 100 miles per hour in 2.8 seconds and did the 100 to 200 miles per hour sprint in 4.7 seconds. These are very impressive numbers regardless of a car platform. He indicated they had dynoed different configurations up to around 1000 horsepower. The engine was a twin turbo configuration of heavily modifed L98 I believe. It had a similar looking intake to the L98, but obiviously not identical. The sledgehammer was developed for some top shootout magazine articles and Chevy/GM had indicated they did not want to loose the shootout.

From my knowledge, this is the benchmark to which all Corvettes during the late 80's and early 90's were compared to. Reeve's group apparently was given access to GM source code for the ECM calibrations. His company also had in the 80's and till 91, the only factory sanctioned Regular Production Option version of the Corvette (the Corvette B2K). These torque monsters could hit 190 miles per hour.

Just a few little facts.

Regards,
90BlackBeast

posted by  90BlackBeast

Over here the skyline produces 330bhp and does 60 in 5.0 secs.. :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

They were never sold over here though were they? I thought they were only available on import!

posted by  Cliffy

Yeah, they were sold here...! :hi: But only here and Japan.. :cussing: the Japanese wouldn't change them to LHD so they never broke into any other markets.. :banghead:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

Some more "facts".. (Came off the internet, may not be 100% correct..)

Corvette Z06..

Price: $49,905
Miles Per Gallon: 19/28 mpg
Curb Weight: 3118 lbs
Layout: Front-Engine/RWD
Transmission: 6-Speed Manual
Engine
Type: V8
Displacement: 5665 cc
Horsepower: 405 bhp @ 6000 rpm
Torque: 400 lb-ft @ 4800 rpm
Redline: 6500 rpm
Performance
0-60 mph: 4 sec
0-100 mph: 9.5 sec
Quarter Mile: 12.5 sec @ 115 mph
Skidpad: .99g
Top Speed: 171 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 104 ft
Slalom Speed: 70.3 mph

Looks pretty good to me.. :thumbs:

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/2/web/542000-542999/542944_7.jpg

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

Well, you learn something new every day I guess, thanx for the info :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

Thats what the forum is for! Well that and bantering/bitching/name calling :cussing: but it depends upon who you are and what you wanna use it for.. You know who you are!! :fu: lol.. :orglaugh: :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

5.0 secs? Are you sure? If that is the case the STi is quicker than the Skyline...I kinda doubt that....

posted by  StiMan

The older STI's done 0-62 in around 5.5 secs..if the new one does it in less than 5 seconds it beats the Skyline.....question answered!

No I dont...lol jk :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

Yeah, 5.0 secs exactly.. Some say 4.9, some say 5.0 and some say 5.1 so 5.0 is a good average.. Keep in mind that the Skyline is probably another 600lbs heavier!! Funnily enough here the 0-60 time for a NEW 2.0 265bhp WRX STi is 5.2 seconds..

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

New? What new one? Do you live in the US? The one here is 300hp and a 0-60 of 4.9...what do you mean?

posted by  StiMan

I live in the UK.. We have about 10 diffrent models of the Impreza.. Most notably a T25 engined 350bhp version that does 0-60 in about 4.1 secs..

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

And who can forget the good 'ol P1 :drool:

posted by  Cliffy

Where do you get the figure 0-60 in 1.6 secs? Do you have a link to this page? Thanks. :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

1.6 Seconds? Is that actually possible in a car? I dont think a Corvette or any car for that matter could hold up to go that quick...yes...I would like to see proof too...If it is true: Holy Crud!

posted by  StiMan

Indeed.. I do believe it did 60 in 4.5 secs tho... Correct me if i'm wrong.. (probably am..) :orglaugh: :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

4.9secs...apparently...good old Google!

posted by  Cliffy

Yes...4.9! I remember that because it was on par with the STi! :thumbs:
So where is 1.6 Boy?

posted by  StiMan

Not on DOT tires, but yes, street driven cars can go that quick, and have for a couple decades. Here's an example:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cvetters3/eighth.jpg

I've seen these guys run quick enough to do 0-60 in 1.2 seconds! vwhobo can probably point you to a few VW Bugs that have done similar times.

posted by  ChrisV

Jeezz! That is quite quick....but where those supped by the person that owned them, or by the company that made them just as the person who said the Covette by some company runs a 1.6? or was that you...

posted by  StiMan

Well look at the below.. If this car can do 100 mph in 2.8 secs and 200 mph in 6.5 secs then i am willing to believe that it does 0-60 in 1.6...

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

I would expect so...

posted by  StiMan

Skyline, deffinately Skyline.
I'll give a more detailed opinion on this topic later. I have to duck out for a while.

posted by  sorcerer

i think the skyline is a better car personaly. i like them cuz you don't see them everyday like you do with vetts. and i think that you can do alot more to a skyline then you can a vett.

posted by  boobz

Both Skylines and Vettes are VERY rare over here.. :smoke:

I think you may be mistaken about this part though.. :hi: :ticking:



The Vette certainly can be tuned much more and the styling modifications are only limited by your imagination...! :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

i agree 100%, in my town corvettes are like mustangs, THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!! A skyline would be a dream car someone who knows wut theyre doing, but if your gettin a car that you want to just look nice but still be kinda fast (AKA pussy moblie :mrgreen: ) then i'd go with Vette, most girls dont know what a skyline is.

posted by  Talon TSi

ill kill you all with my 3 cyl geo metro, its got 4872 fwhp and 2341 ft/lb of torque :screwy:

posted by  Talon TSi

Id probly get a Skyline...I just dont like Corvettes...

posted by  StiMan

corvettes are for guys with small, bent, shrivled, old, or diseased weiners

posted by  Talon TSi

And just how you know know this? :orglaugh:

posted by  DodgeRida67

thats why they're called Corvettes

posted by  Talon TSi

Hummm.... dont think you like Vettes...I side with you....

posted by  StiMan

Hell ya STiMan knows wuts up. Serious tho, newer model corvettes have been showin up around me town. And there are so many :cussing: new model mustangs in my town, seriously like 20% of all my towns cars are mustangs. and now vettes are about 10%. I hATE VETTES, smoke vets tho

here's my talon

specs for the motor
buschur stage 3 head
hks cams 272/272
hks cam gears

slowboy racing stage 2 4g63 2.3 block
2.0 block wid a 4g64 crank
Stage II 4g63 block:
• Crower Rods, ARP rod bolts
• Wiseco 8.8:1 custom pistons
• Clevite main bearings
• Clevite rod bearings
• 700 WHP capable

Turbo and fuel
greddy t-66 ball bearing turbo
custom exhaust manifold
tial 46mm waste gate

aem fuel rail
aeromotive (AFPR)
760 cc injectors
jegs fuel guage

shepracing tranny
shepherd racing race tranny
All of the std/upgrade rebuild parts

New 1st gear and input shaft
Double synchro 3-4 option
New intermediate shaft
Heavy duty shift rail
Steel shift forks
Welded diff and locking sleeve
Magnet upgrade
Kazz frt diff.
cryo treating
act 2900 clutch


it runs low tens with racing slicks on, get bad lanuches with Drag tires and AWD

posted by  Talon TSi

Nice!

posted by  StiMan

ref max power may mag skyline 1280bhp 1/4 mile in 7.67secs rechin 188mph 0_60 2.36 secs shit thats quick car

posted by  freddienorton

Cool, how much did that cost you? :mrgreen: Do you have an approx value for the flywheel BHP? :thumbs:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

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