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Hey my cuz has a honda civic and wants to hook it up with a turbo kit. From
what I no about converting your engine to deal with a turbo you really need
to strengthen it up to take all that extra compression. My first question
is does a turbo kit come with everything you need to make it happen. And
second will just adding the kit without rebuilding areas of the engine lead
to a fast streak of break downs and eventually death to your engine?
cake872
It all depends.
What type of civic does your cousin have?
How much boost is he going to be running?
What condition is the engine in at the moment?
GreekWarrior
This all depends on who you buy the turbo kit from. Most well known
reputable dealers such as HKS will normally package a kit that includes
everything that is needed for adding a turbocharger to a N/A engine.
However, most all vehicles that do not come from the factory with a
turbocharger will require some slight modification and drilling to
accompany the appropriate oil and or water lines.
Rest assured that you more than likely will need to source some additional
parts for a complete install.
It is highly advised that if you are going to be adding a turbocharger to
your engine you should upgrade some engine internals.... i.e. connecting
rods and pistons. The stock internals in most Honda engines are just not
made to withstand the extra heat and power of a turbocharger. Forged
pistons would be a highly recommended item. They are able to withstand more
heat than a stock piston
Also in retrospect to your original question, you would also want some sort
of fuel controller and upgraded fuel components(injectors, rail, FPR, pump)
to properly supply the correct amount of fuel.
These upgrades can range from a simple exhaust and fuel pump to the whole 9
yards depending on exactly how much power you are expecting to push out of
the engine. But for the sake of simplicity...
The more boost you plan on making in the engine the more supporting
modifications you will need to accommodate the added airflow.
DSMer
Yea thats what I thought. The civic's year is a 95 for those who were
curious and i think its a ex. It is the sports addition thou. I don no how
sporty it is apart from it having 2 doors. He cant afford much and doesn't
understand to much about the tuning world. Knows mechanic work thou. He did
swap out his own engine. I guess the best thing for me to do is make sure
he doesn't overdue it on whatever low end turbo he plans to get.
cake872
Going cheap on engine parts is not a smart idea...ever. to boost my car, im
buying another motor, building the internals with connecting rods and new
forged pistons (lower compression as well), arp headstuds, and a new
headgasket. Then Il be ready to put a mere 10psi on it and feel safe.
Putting boost on a stock motor is just not a good idea, especially if you
dont have a backup motor. God knows id never put a turbo on my daily driven
car and then when it breaks down have to wait to repair it before I can get
anywhere again. Also, do not get ebay turbo kits, they are just crap. You
get what you pay for, and if he doesnt have much money to spend, this might
not be a good idea for him. If he buys a ready made kit, it will cost
2500-3000 generally, and that wont include a bigger exhaust and a stonger
clutch. Piecing a kit together should be done only if you know what you are
doing and it will be cheaper, but may take longer to get everything you
need.
Let me try to expand on this
Lets assume he has 100k on his motor (already too much for boost)
Your "cuz's" civic has a compression ratio of lets assume 9.5:1 like my car
(his might be higher)
When you slap a turbo on there, the added pressure is going to start
wearing the motor much faster. Decompression pistons for my car drop it
from a 9.5:1 to an 8.8:1 which puts less strain on them and makes it ok to
turbo. The internals you would replace would now be forged (much stronger
and very often lighter), so they would be able to withstand the abuse that
a turbo would put on them. Then the same thing goes with rods, they are
forged as well, becuase chances are they WILL bend. I wish it was as simple
as slapping a turbo on and calling it a day, but its not, and thats why not
a lot of people have them because they dont want to go through all of the
work to make it happen, and the people that cheap out it ends up costing
them more in the long run. With a build and boost, considering he gets
deals on this stuff and does it all himself, be prepared to drop around 4k+
on the whole deal. Like I said, if you cant do it right, dont do it at all
because its going to be fun for a while, and then once he blows up the
motor and cant get to places he needs to be, not only is he losing money on
parts, but hes also losing time. Do a bit of reading, and talk to DSMer, he
seems to have a better technical grasp on this than I do, im just giving
you a broad idea.
newyorker
Well you guys sure do got it down pack. I figured as much but just wanted
to hear it from someone who really knows what he's talking about and maybe
has some experience. I thank you guys alot and really appreciate it. I'll
have to get back to my cuz and see what he says. By the way check out my
post "300zx upgrade advice" if anyone has any ideas. Thanks again
cake872
Posted in there for ya
newyorker
This all depends on how well intact the cylinders and rings are. If a
compression test shows that he is well in the parameters of the correct
pressure range then it would be safe to install a turbo. My car has 140K on
the motor and it STILL has the factory cross hatches in the cylinders. Now
he's not going to be able to reach 12lbs but he could more than likely run
5-6... Forged internals are expensive and I know how building cars can be
on a budget.
By the way, what setup do you have on your civic? How much boost are you
running? What fuel management accessories do you have?
DSMer
Im gona do this backwards. My civic is not turbo, im still in the process
of deciding if its a good idea or not to turbo a 115k mile motor. Havent
done a compression check yet, but I would still feel really shaky about
putting so much pressure on high miles, all cylinder compression aside.
Guide me, maybe people are just trying to scare me away from it all. I also
cant decide what flange I want to use
The thing is, 5-6psi on a small turbo wouldnt give all that much power, and
on a big turbo cause lag. Once you get in between it starts to get
epensive. Someone told me to run a gt35r (i think) ball bearing? but said
it was in the 600 dollar range for the turbo alone. While I want to make
decent numbers with the car, I dont want to put my engine at risk.
The setup I wanted to do originally
t25 cast iron manifold
14g turbo (mitsu one..found out it doesnt even bolt to the t25 flange
unless i was once again misinformed)
greddy e-manage
2.5 inch exhaust
2.5 inch downpipe
turbo xs or hks ssq bov
rsx-s or similar injectors (350cc or so)
walbro 255 fuel pump
then id have to run a fuel return line from the rail to the tank because I
have a returnless system
stage 2 clutchmasters clutch kit
fridanza 11lb flywheel (heard this would result it something called
"chatter")
electronic boost controller
apexi neo
oil lines
blah blah blah you know the deal
It seemed nice at first, but there are just so many things that can go
wrong, I dont know if I would feel good dropping 2500-3000 to have
everything already installed and tuned, and then blow my little 1.7 liter
to bits somewhere down the road
newyorker
If the thought of a blown engine scares you then you shouldn't be
turbocharging your car. Yes there are things you can to to ensure the
longevity of your engine but you are "forcing" air into your engine.
Realize that when modifying anything you run the risk of damaging or
breaking it. It's a simple equation called Performance/Reliability.
As for the flange of your turbo,you're going to have everything custom
ordered or fabricated to fit so your choice in flange will be negligible.
Just make sure it does match up with the correct flange on your turbo
manifold.
When you're discussing turbocharger size you want to keep airflow, or cfm,
in mind. A larger turbo will generally push more air at lower boost, but at
that low of boost the difference won't be mentionable when compared to a
significantly smaller turbo. In high power applications where you can be
running in excess of 20lbs of boost a larger turbo is needed to sustain the
airflow required to maintain 20+lbs of boost at the higher RPMS. However in
a smaller output application where the total output isn't as high a
small/medium sized turbo will efficiently sustain 10lbs of boost throughout
its targeted RPM range.
Realistically, the choice is all within what your goals are. If you're
looking to have a moderately boosted Honda engine running 250HP then it
won't take a large turbo. A Garrett GT35R Ball Bearing turbo can run
upwards of $1400 and quite frankly thats too large of a turbo for a basic
setup. GT35R's are what some of us DSM guys run on our 400-600HP engines
that operate at 20-30lbs daily.
Mitsubishi turbos not only have their own unique manifold to turbo bolt
pattern but exhaust outlet side of the turbo has a unique 5 bolt pattern
that bolts to our downpipes. You could easily have the exhaust and manifold
made up to fit.If you're going to get a fuel controller pick between the
Apexi Neo or E-Manage. They both do the same thing and you don't need to
have both of them. My vote goes for the Apexi Neo. I use the same one and
it works well for me.
If you're planning on eventually going bigger(turbo), then a 3" exhaust and
downpipe would be the better choice of the two.BOV's are purely a taste
selection. Listen to the sounds of one and pick based on that. I have a
Greddy RS and its a bit exaggerated for my taste. I've heard HKS's SSQ and
I do love their higher pitch staccato sound.
A 255lph fuel pump with 350CC injectors is overkill. 190 will be sufficient
even up to 550cc's. Eitherway you will need an AFPRThe flywheel chatter
occurs when the pulses of the ignition cycle are no longer absorbed by a
heavy flywheel. They can be hear in the transmission at idle. I have an
aluminum flywheel and a 6-puck unsprung disc on an ACT 2600 plate. Trust
me, the last thing you're going to care about is the sound of your clutch
when your clutch is %50-60 heavier than stock. In other words
If you're going to bitch about your car sounding like its been altered from
stock .....then don't modify it :mrgreen:
You can always get a manual boost controller. They are fairly cheap and you
SHOULD NEVER ALTER YOUR BOOST WITHOUT AN APPROPRIATE BOOST GUAGE. But the
choice is always yours. I have a Hallman Pro MBC that is routed from car
all the way to a little twisty knob under my dash. I don't even have to pop
my hood at the stop light. I can just rotate for a little more boost and
"Bye Bye ______ (fill in the blank with the appriate V8, Honda, or
Subaru)
Your setup looks good but needs a few tweaks. Mainly your choice of turbo.
I've helped a few of my buddy's turbo charge their Preludes and I've seen
them use a Turbonettics T04B/TO3 hybrid turbocharger(or something of
similar size). They are nice and small enough to fit without having to do
major rerouting of stuff in the way. If you are going to rebuild the engine
I know its popular with you Honda boys to put in iron cylinder walls.
One thing I didn't notice in your build was a FMIC. No sense in turbo
charging if you can't be cool and show it off right? But you can seriously
use an eBay FMIC kit. Alot of my guys use them and if they can hold up to
25lbs of boost they can definitely run on a 1.8L Honda. I plan on putting
one on myself. SSAutoChrome makes a nice looking one.
DSMer
Alcohol injection would be another alternative if you wanted a sleeper
look.
Also heard from alot of the turbo miata guys that alcohol or water
injection is the better choice its just still in its infancy. I dont know
why they say that but i thought Id throw it out. I remeber a write up
between the two and if IO can find it I'll post it up.
Enthusiast
I forgot to put the FMIC in there..I was looking for like a 22x5x3 or so
sized intercooler, but the thing is for my car, the best setup is the one
where the inlet and outlet are on the same side...I cant find an ebay
intercooler that size with the holes on the same side..I found a godspeed
but it gets larger towards the ends and that would require cutting some
shit. Im not really concerned about the sound of the flywheel chatter, but
I heard that mechanically its not a good thing. There is a T3/T4 kit out
there for my car that makes 185whp and 170 torque on 5psi, and comes with
everything needed, including the downpipe, but the kit costs 3000 without
injectors, fuel management, etc. It makes that power on a mere 5psi, so I
guess that would be better for the motor seeing as its less pressure, but I
cant justify spending 3k+ on just the materials. I have a bunch of things
that I have to clear up before I go through with this, shoot me an IM on
AIM its DJ Driver 88, maybe you can help me out a bit its too confusing to
type on here
newyorker
NewYorker, realistically you shouldn't do anything to your car. 2 weeks
ago you wanted to sell your car. Your already tight budget will burst
after being saturated with many unplanned additional costs. And you won't
be making much more than 200 hp...at the FRONT wheels. Unless you've got a
large budget or you are a resourceful engine builder, this will be more
pain than pleasure. And if you're paying someone to do the work, your
budget is way busted already.
What
I wouldn't hesitate to boost a 115k mile car. I really wouldn't consider
that very high miles anymore either, but thats just me. If your car is beat
or has a weakness then ya, don't do it... but with cars lasting over
300,000 miles I wouldn't be afraid of turbocharging with out a rebuild at
115k. Obviously it isn't ideal, but it isn't a biggie imho. Depends largely
though on what state your engine is in. If you feel it is worn at 115k,
then don't do it. Thats kind of scary though if its messed up so early.
Personally I wouldn't bother turbocharging a FWD car unless I really liked
it, any car for that matter. It seems like you are wishy washy on the
vehicle. If so, then I wouldn't bother it is only going to be a PITA.
I would agree that a GT25 is about the right size though, any more and its
kind of pointless on that chassis. I would simply up the injectors, fuel
pump, and lower the compression through a head gasket. Install Megasquirt
+FMIC and tune for 91 octane. If you don't have it a good LSD should be the
first thing on the list. FWD + 200mm tires + open differential is THE
worst. For a car of that weight with RWD and open diff I would want atleast
225's. So now imagine for FWD.
Eventually I want to single turbo the Explorer with a junkyard Holset
HX/HY35 and Megasquirt. I could probably do it all for under a grand. More
likely $1500, since I don't like to compromise too much, before dyno tuning
it. It will be a while though because my project car takes all the funds.
Not my daily driver (would suck to break it).
rudypoochris
Realize though that one turbo kit to another may push the same PSI but they
could be forcing way different amounts of air into your motor.
PSI can only exist with a restriction.
5psi wont always make the same power as 5psi with a different kit.
For Example to double your PSI but not gain anything you could reduce the
size of the charge pipe by half. The turbo would push the same amount of
air but in half the space so PSi would double but you wouldnt see any hp
gain.
You should look more at the CFM the turbo and kit a a whole cram into your
engine.
Enthusiast
The size of your intercooler and piping has absolutely nothing to do with
PSI or CFM. Only the turbocharger will dictate how mow air will be pushed
through the motor. The wastegate will dictate the total boost. There is NO
physical way that you could double your boost and not see any "gain"
provided you have a sufficient enough fuel supply AND are using the same
turbocharger. You clearly lack the knowledge of how forced induction
works. Please, do NOT attempt to explain something you don't understand.
To clear that up(as I have stated before):
5psi from two different turbos, more often compared a larger and smaller,
will produce different CFM at the same boost setting. Changing the size,
direction, length or diameter of the intercooler and piping will only
change the way that the air flows to the engine. The setting of your
wastegate/boost controller dictates the overall psi of your turbo. If your
wastegate is set at 5psi then it will open when the pressure in the engine
reaches 5psi preventing the turbo from flowing any more air.
DSMer
Listen here, boost isnt mesured in the combustion chamber, its measuered in
a charge pipe.
PSI stands for Pounds per square inch. Take a certain amount of air and put
it into a container. Measure the PSI. Now get a container that is half the
size and put the same amount of air into it. Then Measure PSI. The psi in
the second container will be higher but there will be the same amount of
air. Understand?
And your wrong going from no intercooler to an intercooler can cause a loss
in psi as can additional pipe or other modifications to a turbo system.
Compare rear mount and front mount setups and youll see a difference.
Enthusiast
UGH!:banghead: You really don't have a clue. I will repeat this again and
I will make it celar.
EVEN IF MY INTER COOLER WAS 2 CUBIC INCHES, MY CAR WOULD NOT PRODUCE ANY
MORE BOOST THAN 18LBS BECAUSE MY WASTE GATE WILL NOT ALLOW THE TURBO TO
FLOW ANY MORE AIR THAN WILL PRODUCE 18LBS OF BOOST. YOUR CHARGE PIPE HAS
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOTAL PSI OF YOUR TURBO SETUP. ONLY THE
WAY IN WHICH THE AIR FLOWS
Again. You are referring to HOW the air flows not the total pressure. A
larger pipe or "longer" tubes will only change how much air will be needed
to produce a said amount of boost. I already know this.
I don't care about pressure loss over a said distance. We are referring to
dumbass comment #1:
"For Example to double your PSI but not gain anything you could reduce the
size of the charge pipe by half. The turbo would push the same amount of
air but in half the space so PSi would double but you wouldnt see any hp
gain."
Are you F*CKING stupid? In no way shape or form is that even remotely true.
Don't go pop out a dictionary and read some literature and try to attempt
to justify your bullshit logic. Its FALSE. Incorrect. Not True...
"Durr if you get a bigger jar and put the same amount of air into it it
will decrease the total pressure"
No shit sherlock. Congratulations on your blatantly obvious discovery. Too
bad for you an engine isn't a jar. However since your head seams to be
empty. How about you fill that with air and test your relative "pressure
theories" there.
Imbecile :banghead: .
DSMer
Where's Hobo when you need him? :laughing:
jedimario
You don't need the expertise of the Hobo on such a trivial subject. We're
not getting into rocket science. This is simple knowledge of turbocharger
design and applications.
DSMer
...it was a joke.
jedimario
I laughed with you, even if nobody else did, lol.
Cliffy
It's fairly simple, as long as he runs low boost he should be fine
depending on the mileage and wear of the motor before the installation. If
the motor is not in top condition, don't do it or your friend will have a
3000 pound paperweight in the driveway (after towing it there, of course).
If the motor is in good shape, I would recommend starting really low, 4
lpsi of boost for about 300 miles, step it up to 6 psi for 200 miles and
then bump it up to 8 psi and keep it there until a rebuild with stronger
valve springs and rods are used with lower compression pistons. But when
you go higher boost engine part durability isn't your only worry, because
you have to make sure the motor is getting ample fuel. This entails a more
powerful fuel pump (I recommend a Walbro 190 or 255 l/ph depending on how
much power he really wants to make in the long run), bigger injectors, and
some kind of fuel management system and a A/F ratio gauge to monitor it. To
much fuel and you'll be wasting alot of fuel and too little and you'll be
ruining the motor. As for that fuel management system, I recommend pulling
the ECU and replacing it with the amazing MEGASQUIRT system. But some
people can have a hard time hooking that up (you could probably find one
already built and modified with the Civic ECU harness already wired and
some base tunes already programmed on Honda forums somewhere) so a good FMU
or piggyback system would fulfill the job. However, you should keep in mind
that no matter what parts you replace, the most important aspect to keeping
a turbo system healthy is TUNING.
PontiacFan27
Well I sat him down and gave him a full detailed overview on what he has to
do to make this upgrade possible. Its not looking nearly as simple as he
was imagining it at first of course. He's gonna sit tight for right now
because his motor does have some miles on it and I don think its running at
top notch. At least not for a turbo upgrade. So until he can afford to do
it right and avoid the paperweight situation the project will have to stay
on hold. I thank u guys for helpin me out. I mean I learned a great deal
and im sure the hundreds of people out there with honda civics will love
this article. Thanks again
cake872
