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OK so im 19 years old and in college, transferring to a school that is
downtown next year so im gona be driving quite a few miles every week and I
want to get a new car, and I have boiled my options down to 2, and they are
quite different
My school will be 20 miles away, one way, plus work travel, and 5 days a
week, I anticipate ~300 miles a week, and having a car that is reliable,
comfortable, and affordable is a must.
Option 1. Honda Civic Si Sedan Fiji Blue-$21,290
Option 2. Honda Fit Sport 5-speed manual Vivid Blue Pearl-$15,190
I will have a downpayment of about 7000 dollars hopefully, so that should
help with payments. The car will be financed so it will need full insurance
coverage as well. I make decent money at work, and will be able to afford
both, but the Si I will have little money left over, and thats my drawback
with the Si, as well as the added fuel bills
http://www.2carpros.com/makes/images/civic_si_sedan_blue.jpg
Civic Si Sedan -
Pros: Look, performance, value, great aftermarket support for future.
Cons: Price, MPG, insurance costs
http://news.windingroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/honda-fit-india.jpg<
br />
Honda Fit Sport-
Pros: Practical, MPG, price, roomy, I think it looks great, sport package
comes with all features I need
Cons: 109 horsepower so I might get bored but I hear the car is fun
What would YOU do.
newyorker
Two very different cars I guess. What you call the 'Fit' is what we call
the 'Jazz' and in my opinion it's more of either a first time driver's car,
or a retired driver's car. The Civic will obviously cost more all round,
but I think it'll suit you better in the long run given it's younger looks.
It's also less bland than the Fit.
Cliffy
Both will be brand new. The jazz here is kinda aimed at new families and
college students, etc.etc. Most of the people I see driving them are
actually in their mind 20s to early 40s. Im still stuck in this debate, but
the Civic Si will cost a LOT more
newyorker
I saw the pics at the last minute and edited my assumption about how old
the cars would be, lol...If you can afford the Civic I still say go for
that one. :thumbs:
Cliffy
Yea. we have 2 trims of the fit, the Fit and the Fit "sport" which includes
15" alloys, fog lights, underbody kit colormatched, rear spoiler, 350 watt
upgraded stereo witht AUX input, security system, and cruise control.
Here are the 2 side by side, the Fit in the back, and Fit "sport" in the
front...I use quotes because there inst much about it thats really sporty
lol still the same 1.5 liter 109 horsepower motor but I hear its got decent
torque and is geared well for zippy acceleration
http://www.motiontrends.com/2006/m01/honda/honda_fit_and_fit_sport.jpg
For you guys, the Jazz is like the non-"sport" fit, so I understand why you
would think its bland, but the "sport" doesnt look bad actually, I quite
like it.
I also think the interior is VERY nice for a car of it's price, ive been to
the dealership and fiddled with the seats and storage compartments it was
very impressive.
http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/7/b/T/ag_07fitbase_int.jpg
Its one of the things that makes the car very practical. It also has those
touches that make it really nice like the acura style guage cluster,
colormatched headlights, and it all around doesnt look like your typical
econo-box. Quality seems very good for what it costs
newyorker
What's wrong with your current Civic? You're a student, why are you
looking to buy a new car when your current one is fine? You're saying the
Si is going to cost you a lot. Your current Civic must be somewhat fun,
and probably quite reliable. Keep it, and use your money to have fun in
your college years. You don't want to spend every free second you have
working off a car that you REALLY DON'T NEED. When you're done with school
you'll get a better paying job...then really go car shopping.
And between the two, I'd get the Si. I don't see why you'd get the Fit
over your current car anyways. The Fit will cost you more money as apposed
to just keeping your Civic, and it's going to be slow as balls. Even with
2X the power it would still be lacking, and doubling the power in that car
is no easy task.
giant016
while ive thought of that option as well, my car isnt that reliable. Im
replacing my transmission this week, at 116k miles, and they will keep on
rolling up and up and up. there are just constant little annoyances I have
with this car. rattles, reliability issues, comfort, etc.etc. that and my
mpg isnt that great and is consistently dropping
EDIT: take for example if i have to replace my motor, in this car it
wouldnt be worth it, and i wouldnt get shit with a blown motor, so id
basically be left with a car that i could have gotten 4500-5000 for sitting
in my driveway not worth anything and have to pay for the new car without
the money that i would have put down from selling this one..its a tough
decision
newyorker
Well when I wanted to sell the Z and get something else I realized, I may
not exaclty love it now, but the way I'm modding and fixing or bettering
this car all the time, eventually, It will be EXACLTY what I want and a one
of a kind.
Kinda sucks I didnt figure it out sooner as I pretty much had to start over
since I mostly returned it to stock and sold off the parts, but Im keeping
it, cause I probably lose my ass on it if I sell it, and with a brand new
build viperized tranny and a new forged motor going in in the extremely
close future, then new paint following, it will be pretty much a new car
but better:mrgreen:
Enthusiast
Well all of my major plans kinda died off for this car either becauyse they
were too expensive or complex or both. I just wana get a car to drive thats
good and step away from this whole tuning game for a while. With all of the
shit going on, every other asshole street races now..I was on my way home
from work last night at 3am and some dudes in a mustang every light we got
to they revved at me and took off, then slowed down and did it at every
single stoplight...it seems like you cant drive any kind of car with any
kind of modification without getting assholes nag you
newyorker
Other people seem to really affect your car selection.
Why not a nice used LS1 GTO. Great Gas mileage (buddy gets 25-28 highway
with the LS2), cheaper than a new SI, parts a cheap, good aftermarket,
clean classy look (not boy racer), and very comfortable and roomy, I sit
comfortably in the back and Im 6' 180lbs.
Plus itd be quick enough and nice enough to hold off modding while you just
enjoy driving it, plus its still relativel new, and people usually dont
notice it, so less gay mustangs trying to race.
Enthusiast
Sorry but american cars never caught my fancy, especially the "muscle
cars". I also want something brand new, and I dont know how your buddy gets
that much mpg either hes full of it or somethin with the car must be wrong.
My friend has a 5.0 95 mustang gt an gets like 8 in the city 14 highway I
realize its probbably not the same motor but whatever
newyorker
Easy its a Double overdrive tranny and a big torquey motor that lugs around
right off redline.
Hell I get 28highway with 3.73s and a less efficient motor, and the same
transmission. Its all in the tranny and gears, gotta love the T56.
Great Its not american its australian, what would it hurt to drive one, I
think you'd be pleasantly surprised. Hell remeber when bronxie finally went
and drove a vette?
Enthusiast
I uno man, i just dont want an american car or australian w.e lol. Everyone
I know has some problems with them, more than mine anyway
newyorker
What would a test drive hurt then man, and so you know the drivetrain is
pretty much bullet proof at stock power level in the car, and the rears are
fine unless modded with some sticky tires.
Enthusiast
how many people do you know with Australian cars? Or are you assuming
they're the same as American?
windsonian
Because nothing will convince me to get the car anyway. I just dont like
them, they feel very cheap to me, especially the interior
newyorker
I will not buy a corvette, or a camaro, or a mustang, or a gto, etc. I just
dont like them, end of story. Same as I dont like VW and audi and the likes
because of their constant problems. I like jap cars.
newyorker
Normally I'd tell someone to go with the Civic, but I'll make a special
exception this time.
jedimario
By saying that, you have obvoiusly never been in a GTO and are blinded by
the ignorant generalizations of american cars.
Enthusiast
I just dont like them...everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Id rock
a vette but its not practical for my situation, nor is it affordable now
lets try to stick to topic
newyorker
Yes, you're entitled to your opinion, but you tried to back up your opinion
with "evidence". The problem is not that you don't like them, it's your
contradictory reasoning for not liking them.
And you'd be hard pressed to make me fork out that sort of coin for a new
jazz. If it MUST be from those two, then civic. But only if affordable.
If it's not, I'd be getting something else. Maybe slightly older.
windsonian
Buddy, after high school and through college I drove an '89 Pontiac
Sunbird, an '88 Acura Integra and an '88 Mazda 323. "Constant little
annoyances" sounds like princess talk to me. Just get over it and and
don't drive your car like an asshole, which we all know you do. If you rev
it to 7000 every shift, and ram into every gear of course you're going to
wreck your transmission and blow your motor. Learn to drive properly, and
your Honda Civic, an ultra reliable car, will last. You already boasted
this week about your amazing parking ability, time to expand on that.
I'll vote for the third option when you put it in.
Mathew
You have a point there. I drove it to school today normally, and it drives
great. I may just get this all fixed, while they are in there replace the
clutch, and then get the shop to do my timing belt, water pump and
tensioners, fix the alternator belt whine, and check the interior to secure
those little rattles, as well as get a valve adjustment at the dealership
(a buddy works there he wont **** my car up) and ride her out. I wouldnt
want to spend ~1500 on maintenance and sell it for a loss, especially since
I wont get much, the car has frame damage
newyorker
I'm getting high teens city (high of 18.7 or something) and almost 30 hwy
with the LS1 and an auto, and my driving can be "spirited". I'm sick of
people assuming they're inneficient dinosaurs, when their Hondas that weigh
a lot less and have way less power aren't doing much better. I'm not
talking about you NYer, just people in general.
If you don't like the cars that's your thing. I don't see why people are
giving you crap for it. Different strokes and so on.
giant016
I would get the Fit given those two choices. Realistically between the two
neither are cars your most likely going to want to keep into your thirtees
or even mid-low 20's. The fit is cheaper so it is a better choice imho.
That way you can save the money for something nicer than you could normally
afford later down the line.
Personally I think those are both bad choices. Not because of make or
anything like that. Simply because Mainly because I believe spending money
on a new car is silly for a teenager/college student. Your paying dearly
just to suck up a couple of years of depreciation. Seems like such a waste.
Ontop of that, your talking about buying an econobox. To me (in my opinion)
there is no difference between a new or a used economy car, they are both
mediocre performers at best. Its the same thing. I wouldn't buy an economy
car personally, but if I did, it would be used. Imho your much better off
getting a used 300zx, MN12, Fox Stang, Porsche 944, etc. They are all ALOT
cheaper, ALOT more upmarket, and have a ton more potential.
If your really die hard into japanese cars, get the 300zx, you won't be
dissapointed. The NA version gets around quickly enough for most people and
they are very elegant. They are a pain in the ass though and they aren't
necessarily the most reliable of the bunch. Another choice is the 3rd gen
supra, but they are very much outclassed by the Z32, same goes for the
3000GT.
Stop being a fan boy. Just say you don't like American cars and move on.
Don't try to justify it with BS evidence. The Camaros were rated at 28mpg
EPA highway or something similar. EPA lowers their ratings 22% also to
better reflect reality. It is true that the Camaros get that kind of
mileage. They have double over drive and cruise freeway speed at something
like 1500rpm. That fact, not fiction so it really don't matter what you
think it wrong, because it isn't. Just say you don't like them because your
biased or whatever reason, just don't try and justify it with BS.
PS. Your friend needs to slow down or get his vehicle fixed. Its pretty
damn difficult to pull anything below 15mpg average in a 5.0L Mustang
unless your taking 1 mile trips all the time and flooring it everywhere.
The 5.0L Mustangs were rated at 25mpg highway... seeing as my brother and I
both have 5.0L Fords I can atest that it is indeed quite common to get in
excess of 25mpg on the freeway in a maintained (not even well maintained)
5.0L.
rudypoochris
Just stick with your civic stop dropping the clutch. Replace the tranny.
Hondas last a really really long time. I drove over 30 miles on a blow
radiator so your honda should last a really long time. If your gonna
replace the motor might as well throw in one of those other silly honda
motors in.
Spanky2324
I understand that this is your opinion an all but the GTO's interior as
very, very, very, very nice considering the price they are selling for
used. Sport-luxury level, and in my opinion, better than a C-Class
Mercedes.
Just for us, go test out a GTO. GTO's are like the super-bargain used car
out right now. They sell cheap purely because it doesn't look like it's
packing 350-400 hp. COMFORTABLE. FAST. LUXURIOUS. SPACIOUS. CHEAP.
Reliable? From what I know, they've been reliable.
JUST F*CKING TRY IT!!!!!! It never hurts to KNOW something instead of
taking a misguided guess. You f*cking idiot. You're such a child not
ready to make decisions.
GTO Interior
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/10/5/231/205/3030037127.231205595.
IM1.07.565x421_A.562x421.jpg[/img]
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/10/16/232/302/3112795019.232302889
.IM1.07.565x421_A.562x421.jpg[/img]
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/10/16/232/302/3112795020.232302889
.IM1.08.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
A Dumbass Civic
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/9/30/231/332/2992769346.231332208.
IM1.05.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/7/13/226/470/2458027149.226470486.
IM1.10.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
YAWN.....here's a bitch....oh, umm.....FIT
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/10/10/231/799/3068149162.231799299
.IM1.02.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/10/5/231/627/3030099409.231627797.
IM1.12.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2007/10/10/231/799/3068149164.231799299
.IM1.04.565x421_A.562x421.jpg
Damn those back-rests look stiff and upright. I think I could squeeze one
of my nuts back there. Super-soaker skeet skeet everywhere it's so small
back here I WET IT ALL BITCH!!
GTO PERFORMANCE NUMBERS
HP: starts at 350...that's all you need to know.
Civic (Performance?) Numbers from the fastest of the slow...Si
HP: 197.00 HP
Torque: 139.00 Ft-Lbs
Moral Victory Stat: 98.5 BHP/Liter
Fit = dnf
To me, the Fit sucks. The Civic is a nice, decent car for the "safe" guy
or a girl. The GTO is the bargain of the century. That's my opinion. Si
insurance rates are sky-f*cking-high. But Geico, it's not that fast!!
[I]Doesn't that read Si bitch!!! [I]ZOOM ZOOM OR WHATEVER YOUR SLOGAN
IS!!! ZOOOOM ZOOOOOOM BITCH THEN GIMME THAT!! KIDS BUY IT TO RACE AND
GET IT STOLEN!!! YOU MUTHAF*CKERS NEVER LOCK YOUR DOORS!!! YOU PARK IN
BAD NEIGHBORHOODS TO PARTY AT 3a.m.!!! YOU ZOOOM ZOOOOOOM IN FRONT THE
WROOOOOONNNNNNGGGGG MUTHAF*CKERS!!! SAY SIR!!!! CAN I GET SOME WATER FOR
THAT!!!!
What
He's obviously never been in a GTO, he's just making generalizations. He
used to drive a Pontiac 6000, what do you expect.
Mathew
Hey, What I have an idea. Go **** yourself and the GTO. I DONT LIKE THEM, i
never did, never will!! By the way, id love to see a GTO stick a corner
like the Si can. no ammount of pictures you post will change my mind, so
congrats for wasting 20 minutes of your life in making that post
newyorker
First of all, you must be very specific and clear in what you want. That
requires, of course, that you know what you want yourself. Do you want
something economical, reliable, and affordable....or something that takes a
quick corner?
I'm not sure which school you're transferring to, but there are a few
things I can say on what it's like to work and go to school downtown in
Philadelphia.
1) Traffic is a b*tch. There is simply no way I can stress this. I can get
to Penn in 25 minutes without traffic but it can take me an hour 15 to
drive there during rush hour. Therefore, I would STRONGLY advise you to
make sure that a manual is what you want. Sure it feels sporty and
powerful, but you want economy and reliability, right? You will be shifting
every 5-10 seconds in traffic. This is not only not good for your trans,
but is also EXTREMELY annoying. Perhaps getting a manual AFTER you graduate
sounds better.
2) I don't really like either of the two cars you posted, but of them, I
would go with the Fit. I don't think it's very good looking and the
interior looks very boring, but it is considerably cheaper, more gas
friendly, and cheaper to ensure. You will save a LOT of money, which is a
priority in college. Since you like how it looks (to each his own) I don't
see the negative of it for you. Speed won't be an issue as you will rarely
find much room to use it. Only go with an Si if you care about it's mod
potential.
Nissan_Altima
I think What said that like an asshole and is obviously quite immature or
just down right uncouth, but I do agree with the majority of his points.
The fact of the matter is that you like Hondas now. So your going to get
one regardless, fine. I have a suspicion when your 22-25 your going to look
back on the decision and be like "wtf". :screwy:
So as merely some recommendation, if it MUST be new, and it MUST be one of
those two, just get the Fit, save the money for later, and "cut your
losses" so to speak. You'll thank me later when you have an extra $5,000 in
the bank which incidently can buy you a really nice, powerful, upmarket,
late model car that has already gone through its depreciation. Eventually
you will realize your making choices like "I could get this new 100hp FWD
Econobox OR I could afford TWO 300hp Twin turbo Sports car, such as the
300zx" and once that sinks in, maybe you'll get it. I'll tell you now, in
3-4 years just one of the 300zx's will even be worth more than the Fit...
rudypoochris
Well it might not even boil down to that im gona have to drop like 500 for
transmission repair next week so I may not even want to sell if I see the
car is otherwise sound. I dont mind the manual, ive seen my share of
traffic and trust me its not that bad, and i dont think its bad for the
trans just wears the clutch a bit quicker, but its nothing that is
noticable. I kinda have everything I NEED in my car, the new car would just
satisfy the WANT portion of my life, but may also give me $$ problems and
force me to take out student loans instead of paying for school as im
working through the semester. I hate to say it but I dont know yet
newyorker
You just solved the riddle yourself dummy, KEEP YOUR CAR!
Mathew
go searching on youtube or wherever for the top gear episode with the gto
:wink2:
windsonian
it doesnt exist
newyorker
GTO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJzRfQCt0GA
Lapped (in the wet) the Top Gear test track faster than a Ferrari 575.
What
I assure you the Monaro is not the same GTO we have it may be the same car
but i guarantee there are differences. Besides a Ferrari is a ferrari, a
GTO is just a pontiac. If you want to go fast and dont care about how you
look, buy the GTO. Id rather look like I have taste and have a
sophisticated car like a ferrari. I do not like american cars...just get
over it
newyorker
So you would like to show you have taste by buying a Fit or an Si.
Interesting... GTO vs. Fit or Si. Hmmmm tough one. Be real.
rudypoochris
I wasnt comparing the Si/Fit to the GTO. He compared it to the 575
ferrari...
newyorker
*never mind*
Nissan_Altima
Merely pointing out that you mention taste as an attribute you value. Which
contradicts with your proposed selections. You could get something a few
years old that is nice and elegant, or you could get a new Honda. Just
found it ironic.
rudypoochris
First he didnt compare the cars, just the lap times, and the GTO Won, so
EAT IT.
Second Your about as intelligent as a bushel of pubic hair.
The monaro and GTO are the same cars, minus the cabins being flipped and a
new body. THEY ARE THEY SAME YOU TOOL.
Now go cry cause you look like a dumbass. Your just an ignorant little
ricer, I hear the same ****in excuses everday" Well my honda isnt set up
for drag racing but ill eat you in the corners." Dont forget your honda has
its roots all tied up in an economy car.
Your retarded for not even wanting to consider a car that will outcorner,
out accelerate, and be all around nicer, with more potential for power and
less money than your gay SI.
You should just stop and say guys "Im ****ing retarded I make shit up about
other cars so I feel better about my honda, sorry"
Enthusiast
:orglaugh:
what, because we cut bonnet scoops into it because that's what they thought
the old school GTO crowd would like?
Differences:
minor cosmetic changes
you drive it from the wrong side......
....... got any others for me? And don't just say "yes, there are
differences". You "assured" me, so you must know what at least some of
them are.
[EDIT]: And they're obviously performance related, or you wouldn't make the
distinction based on the video.... which showed an HSV GTO Coupe'
anyway.
If it makes you feel more vindicated that these few cosmetic changes make
it an American car ..... sure ... what the hell, go for it. Doesn't make
you right though.
windsonian
Il take the new Si over the GTO thanks. I prefer a car that is not pieced
together with just snapon plastics, and has primitive engineering. Now you
can eat my nuts, cause maybe to you getting the most power for your dollar
is important, but to some people not looking like someone with poor taste
is important as well..thats why they buy imports, not rattly domestic cars
(in this case australian). The only domestic cars I liked were the ones pre
1990s, new stuff is shitty with a few exceptions. Import cars have a
quality feel, domestics feel like they are just slapped together with no
concern for quality at all, the material choices arent there, etc.
newyorker
you're still making generalisations that don't make sense.
stop using the words domestic and import when you're talking about 2
imports.
And it's usually the Japanese type cars that are accused of being plastic,
not larger V8's.... or so my experience runs.
windsonian
All cars have plastic interiors. Domestic guys say imports have plastic
imports and we know this, but my friend's 95 mustang GT has the MOST
plastic interior ive ever seen it just looks and feels SO cheap looking at
it and touching it. My car has a plastic interior, so does my friend's
golf, and my dads corolla, rav4, camry, golf, almost every car ive been in,
but american cars just have such a crappy feel and look to them its what im
used to
newyorker
I don't understand, you rocked a poo Neon and loved it, but you refuse to
TESTDRIVE a GTO...which beats the Neon, Civic, and Fit in 90% of the
categories a car is judged.
Let's all be naive and consider the GTO a domestic for ease of
communication. NewYorker, we don't care or believe what you will do.
You're the same guy who wanted to turbo his Civic but refused to buy the
parts at a supreme discount from a reputable source (ME) because you don't
like...ME? Do you know me? No, but I've seen you before. The liar.
Truth is, you're keeping your car and you aren't going to any college...you
are lying to us. But the real problem isn't your current lies and current
ignorance, it's your inability to learn...<<<
What
LOL im not going to college you are a funny kid. Nissan_Altima knows I do
as well as MANY other people, but I dont need to prove anything to a
lowlife like you...I might though, we will see maybe once you feel stupid
(not for the first time) youll shut your mouth and go back where you
belong. Yes I had my neon, and yes I loved it, but after getting my civic,
I see the clear difference and I cant see myself going back to poorly made
cars. If I were in the market for a sports car, id get an S2000, a car that
was made for driving, and to get the most out of the experience, a car that
is focused on performance, not a GTO...shit id take a miata over a GTO
newyorker
That's not the question...the real question is would you take YOU over ME?
NEWYORKER over WHAT? Name any situation where the best positive results
are expected and I bet most people, including you, would rather invest
their faith in me.
Until you can choose yourself over me...you aren't ready...but even when
you get to that point, you probably still won't be ready....because you're
still making at least one bad decision...but at least you'll have the
confidence and that is key.
What
Dude, your not too quick. You can't argue that you would choose a Honda
Civic over a Pontiac GTO based on taste. The Civic is the epitome of
economy car, which just so happens to be the opposite of taste. Yes, this
time you flat out said it after making some poor excuse last time.
Yes, your friends 95 Mustang GT is a river of plastic. It was also priced
extremely cheap for the amount of performance it delivered. If you want a
nicer interior, buy a nicer car. Its not that hard. With the cost of a new
Fit you could probably buy 3 95 Mustang GT's. That is hardly a fair
comparison. Or you could buy a 2nd generation BMW M5.
Choose your next phrase:
A: "But I chose Civics over M5's because I want to show that I have
taste!!!!!"
B. "But I chose Civics over C5 Corvettes because of their 'primitive
technology'. I even heard Corvettes use leaf springs!!!" - Which just so
happen to be lighter and lower than standard coils.
C. "But the Honda Fit gets 50mpg" - But you would have to drive the Fit
130,000 miles before you broke even on the 7-8k you would of saved buying a
300zx Twin Turbo.
rudypoochris
Well it started off being a car discussion, then somehow became about you
so I will answer. I would take me over you because you are a worthless self
centered piece of shit who cant see past his mustang, knife collection, and
made up girlfriends. All you do is talk about how great you are...what are
some great things you have done? Have you done any volunteer work? Given
food to homeless on the street? Donated any money to charity? Given blood
to the red cross? Have you ever helped someone do something they didnt have
the skill or strength to do, and then refuse to take money because you did
it as a good deed? Have you offered help to complete strangers such as an
older woman loading her car in a parking lot because you felt you had a
responsibility to help? I can say I have done each of these things on more
than one occasion, so dont go thinking you are better than me. You talk,
and seem to care only about yourself, and I hope to god if there is one
that you spend the rest of your sorry days alone and reflect back on this
moment when I told you it would happen, and realize what a scumbag you are.
And you had better hope that when you are old and alone and weak, that in
the parking lot of the grocery store someone like me comes and helps the
sorry old man trying to do his shopping, that old man being you. Take a
minute and think about how dumb you are, your future will thank me for it.
That or il just get a smartass answer as you usually put out, and we will
all keep standing in one spot.
newyorker
a. i would take an m5 over a civic, but not now. Its not the kind of car I
need in this point in my life, I dont see why thats hard to understand
b. as much as I dont like the corvette and its "technology" the c6 z06
delivers great performance all around, once again, not what I am looking
for in a car right now...that and later in life id rather have the stingray
anyway over the new vette its just a matter of preference, its not
something that can be dictated
c. once again not a practical car for this point in my life
I see where you are coming from with this argument, but realize that as a
college student trying to have something practical and safe and efficient
and reliable, there are only a few choices that I really have in my mind.
If I was out of college and working making great salary based on my
profession, I wouldnt look anywhere close to an Si or a Fit for my car, but
at this point in my life, its something I can live with, and would actually
prefer..keep in mind insurance rates for cars like the GTO, 300zxtt, and
camaro for a 19 year old male, with a driving record that isnt clean to say
the least. And about american cars, ive just never fancied them, i have
many reasons for this, large and small, but ive listed a few...they might
just be stereotypes but they are all based on experience, not madeup
things. ive known people who have had LOTS of troubles with their
domestics, but I havent met anyone, nor read anywhere about a honda having
chronic issues..sure there will be a lemon but for the majority of the
import market the probability is far less than what im used to seeing in
domestics. Maybe my mind will change later, but for now, I have different
needs in a car. My statements about american cars may be 100 times off 6000
times into tomorrow, but from the people I have known and things I have
seen, iv gotten nothing but bad vibes about them. you can correct me all
day long, and say how im wrong, but if I dont want a domestic car, and have
NO intention of buying one becuase my mind is set based on fact or
stereotype you wont convince me otherwise. now i hope we can move on and
get back to the topic at hand...what do I do about my car
situation...should I just fix my bearing and drive my car a few more years?
newyorker
if u get the fit, Broze Orange Metalic owns fiji Blue. BOM rsx's are my fav
:thumbs:
V-Tec
haha.... gold.... and necessary, because it is a concept that he REALLY
seems to be struggling with. Now he's not even saying "domestics", he's
saying "American cars"... hmmm
windsonian
As much as I think newyorker is a misguided little brat, some of you are
being morons. He's look for an economical new car, and you guys are
recommending Camaros, GTOs, 300ZX's Corvettes, and M5's? You must be
insane. All of those cars are not nearly as economical or reliable as a
new Civic or Fit. Not to mention the fact that the cars you are
recommending are USED and as such have little or no warranty and have
MILEAGE. In other words, it will need parts sooner than a new honda!
Yes he is being stupid with his bias against domestics, but the bottom line
is, those cars aren't in the right category anyway. So get off it already.
Mathew
but his "anti-domestic" bias was directed at an import.
[EDIT]: Also.... i think i gave my opinion awhile back.
windsonian
My point was merely that for a fraction of the cost you can get soooo much
more. Take the 300zx for example. Twin turbo 300zx is around $7-8k right
now. It gets about 24mpg. It IS economical because with the extra 8k you
have left over from NOT buying the fits you would have to drive 130k miles
to make the Fit price break even with the 300zx (assuming the fit gets
50mpg, which I doubt it does). Furthermore they ARE reliable. If you
maintain them they really are. My roomate has a 300zx N/A with 190,000
miles on it he bought at 160k, no problems. I have a 191k Ford Explorer NO
PROBLEMS. Warrenties didn't used to exist 20 years ago anywhere near the
levels they do now, and it wasn't a big issue. Yes they probably will need
parts sooner rather than later, no it isn't a big deal. Parts for 10 and 20
year old cars, especially domestics, are SOOOO much cheaper than the
average new car part it isn't even funny.
Never mind the fact that ontop of all that the 300zx has already gone
through pretty much ALL of its depreciation. It will most likely rise in
value from where it is at. The Fit on the other hand is a new economy car
and will depreciate like a stone. In 3-4 years most likely the used 300zx
will resell for more than the Fit. So which is more economical and
practical then? You save 8k and you have a higher resale. Also remember
that this whole time he will have been driving a 300zx twin turbo which is
a ton nicer than a civic. A fully loaded 300zxTT was something like 45k
back in 96'. That is a NICE car. The fact of the matter is buying NEW is
NOT what is the most economic or practical for a college student, period.
It just isn't.
rudypoochris
Whatever you think of me personally, that doesn't stop me from getting
results. And....AND....this doesn't have unity with my previous sentence
but AND....I don't see how I can't "see past" those things you
listed...like they dominate my life or something.
I haven't driven my Mustang in more than 2 weeks, I don't know where my
knives are right now and it's not much of a collection...AND....AND...my
girlfriend is real...you just want more pics of her.
Look how cute her little African-American toes are!!!
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3434/img1943yt7.jpg[/IMG]
What great things have I done? PLENTY.
As for charity related things, I'm a nice guy. Very dependable, very
giving. I'd help you. Oh, you ever heard of Hurricane Katrina? Guess who
was there the first day at 6a.m. helping muthaf*ckers empty they
refrigerator? Guess who? You seen those dirty people walking through
water? I chauffeured some of them to there destroyed properties...I didn't
know them!
Red Cross? Blood? Bitch, after the hurricane, Red Cross was LIVING IN MY
APARTMENT. Not my momma's house, my shit. Red Cross people from out of
state had no where to sleep because of over-booked housing, and I
volunteered my apt on a sign-in sheet at the Red-Cross shelter, got a call,
and for THREE WEEKS people lived at my place until a hotel was ready for
them. I slept where? They didn't ask. Red Cross payed for my month's
rent though...but that's not the point...who volunteers there living space?
I do. They could have been f*ckin' and rollin' dice in my bed.
Wait...wait...where'd that dude live when he came down for business because
his bitch-ass didn't like his hotel? You know, the "soft-porn" king?
During the re-build period...f*ck it let's get to the point.
I have 2 statements for you.
1. Not you or anyone else you know is me, so don't compare you or anyone
else you know...to me.
2. ...and if you ain't me then who the f*ck are you?*
*[I]quote from "What" 2007
----------------------------------------------------------
I'm not recommending he buy anything, I just want him to test drive a GTO
to rid himself of his foolish mindset. I feel the best thing he can do is
keep his car...which is what he will do...per post #32 of this thread.
What
I agree with you there, but this is what he wants...
Mathew
Well of course he does. Look how he drools over synthetic like hes never
seen a woman half naked before. As some of your statements had been quite
moronic but i agree with test driving the gto. It's like your asking him to
do gay porn I mean I go out and test drive cars for the hell of it and it's
sparked me today to go and test drive a gto tomorrow after i run some
errands. This is kid is more about "handling" and "taste" and economy which
is the only one he got right. The civic may be able to handle a few corners
hear and there but ive seen civics try to keep up with me and it's no fun
for them. I took an old high school friend out in the backroads who yet
drove a civic and raced it back there. He was scared shitless of the lines
i could take and handling i recieved so don't go bashing a american car
just because it handles poorly because guess what the gsx may as well be an
american car. Anyways you want something with taste buy a lexus or just buy
whatever the hell you want.
Oh yeah btw whats quote is so going in the sig
Spanky2324
Still immature. Dont worry, keep being a loser and a scumbag, the karma
train will hit you hard, and I hope in your case its a bullet to the head.
By the way nice pic..its good to see that "I love what" has a pedicure done
regularly
newyorker
Hes bitching about cheap interiors and he drives a used base model civic,
and i talking about a FIT. DAMN
Enthusiast
Oh and so you know your SI will probably get shitty economy for what it is,
It will cruise around at an insanely high rpm.
The fit is made solely for economy so it is a lil better
Enthusiast
Nothing has fallen off lol unlike a lot of cars i know...and there are no
huge gaps between panels
newyorker
Dude what are you talking about. I have own and do own both imports and
domestics. There isn't some magic American assembly line issue where panel
gaps are added an extra 1/8" wider. Stop being such a tard man. Seriously.
All of the comments I typically here about this stuff are so dumb.
"Its reliable because it is Japanese"
"American interiors are all plastic"
"It makes alot of HP/liter"
"American cars fall apart at 100,000 miles"
"American panels have an extra 1/8" gap"
Come on. Both countries make fine cars of varying quality. The fact of the
matter is that they are all made out of the same stuff by pretty much the
same machines. Reliability comes down to ALOT more than just what the
factory put in it. Panel gaps are just straight up myth. Be real.
You just don't have any real reason to justify why you hate American cars.
Its fine that you do, just don't try to justify it with BS. I like both,
each have their strong points and their weak, but I will never buy a Honda
"because it is reliable", just like I won't buy a car with parts that are
falling off... if they exist in this day and age.
rudypoochris
They do...we have had to reaffix countless panels in my friends 03 envoy
(25k miles on this keep in mind) and the interior is horrid quality. The
leather already has rips, brakes already had to be replaced 2 times, 10mpg,
rides horrible the only thing i like is you dont have to slow for speed
bumps, do I have to go on?? No I realize there isnt a magic behind making
interiors, but some do it better than others
01 Cavalier
...ok so the pic wont upload...il take care of this all when i edit the
post in teh afternoon
Steering wheel from an 80s buick, huge gaps at doors and dash, seats that
look to have NO bolsters at all, a shifter surrounded by what looks like
plastic wire brush, it just looks really cheap, almost like a kid made
it
01 Civic
Il upload this when I get home from school its on my desktop and I have to
leave for class now
newyorker
http://www.samarins.com/reviews/96_civic_interior.jpg
96 to 00' Civic interior. Its horrible too, get over it. Its a cheap car
and looks like crap on the inside. Is that a surprise?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/RudypooChris/95cavalier_int.jpg
95' Cavalier interior. Wow, amazing another horrible interior!? Pick your
choose, its the same stuff get over it. Plus, do you realize that often
these vehicles are cheaper than their japanese equivalents which might just
account for why they look a little cheaper? OMG really?!?! New Aveo 5 Door
= 10,595 competitor, new Fit 13,950. Thats 32% more. You get eseentially
the same horsepower and more weight.
As for your friends Envoy... Lemon law it if all that stuff was actually
happening. Seriously. I don't know why you would buy an Envoy any way, but
still. Lemon law it and get your money back. Don't pretend like this stuff
only happens to American cars though. Toyota has recalled MILLIONS of cars
in the past couple of years for steering failiures and other hazardous
failiures that cause the driver to lose steering ability. Most recently
they recalled the Tundra trucks with the 5.7L (I believe that was the
engine) because the camshafts were BREAKING. Recalls and defects happen to
everyone, wise up. :ohcrap:
rudypoochris
Id still take the fit for Hondas reputation. I drove aveos at work and even
at 10k miles there were strange clunks coming from under the car...on every
single one. Honda fit was great. About the Honda interior, its flush and
has a nicer feel than the cavalier
newyorker
Hondas reputation is built on what? Theres no way any one person can know
how reliable or unreliable an entire brands line up is compared to entire
lineups of another make. Hondas reputation, as are all brands reputations,
are based on what one person said to another, to another, to another. Alot
of the time these people aren't necessarily the most reliable sources, like
you. You can spin it any way you like. I can say every import I know of has
had problems, just as you can say every domestic you know of has had
problems. What does that achieve?
The Cavalier interior is flush too. And no, there isn't a nicer one of the
two. They both are shitty and cheap, LOOK. Your spredding stuff about cars
that just isn't true. This is how rumors and uneducated opinions, such as
yours, get spread about cars that are just fine. I know you would still
take the Honda for another 32%, thats fine for whatever reason it suits
you, just don't say its because all domestic alternatives are pieces of
shit, thats just ignorant. You can buy a Cobalt for the same price as the
Fit and it is a whole market up, just to put things in perspective.
EDIT: Also it is hard to notice but in the pictures of the interior you can
also tell the Civic is not setup to be a drivers car. Tach is on the wrong
side.
rudypoochris
What does that have to do with anything?
jedimario
Yea that civic doesnt have a tach...at least it doesnt look like it. looks
like a DX model or something
newyorker
Talking about interiors. He said the cavalier isn't smooth, I said the tach
on the civic is on the wrong (left) side. Its not that big of a deal. The
rest of the post was the actual point...
rudypoochris
I mean its just the little things. Look where the cig lighter is on the
cavvy...not only is that a pain in the ass when smoking but when you plug
up a phone charger it hangs all along the friggin dash, where as most
normal cars have it by the cupholders. I dont understand the point of the
plastic brush along the bottom of the shifter, and im sure the turn signal
is like most other american cars of that era...you have to give it a lot
more nudge to make it go up or down. the guages are very generic, I see
them on everything from the cavalier to that generation tahoe (on the plus
side I like how they iluminate...when they do we had an escalade come to
work where one side of the thing was completely off), and when I put it in
park, the shifter just fell out of its place, along with the door not
closing properly and rips in the leather as well as many things being again
very loose and to me, unrefined. The speaker holes in the door look like
they were just poked, not like the civic where it is a designated bulge for
them, so it doesnt look sloppy. Im not a fan of that civic either, one of
the reasons I got the 01 with the slightly better interior..the little
pocket next to the radio is good for well..nothing. Cant fit a cd in there,
nor much anything else really MAYBE a pack of cigarettes. Im not a fan of
either, but if I had to pick, I would take the civic..same would go for
reliability. Im gona jump on my desktop and throw up a pic of my inside the
first day I got it
EDIT: pic
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2426/civicinteriorxq4.jpg
there is only one thing out of line which was due to a crooked spring nad
is nowfixed which is to the bottom left of the steering wheel the little
coin tray
EDIT: speaking of the Aveo, I think its retarded how you have to press down
on the shifter to get it into reverse gear...I mean they could have just
put a button on the shifter like all other normal cars, but they had to be
"fancy" at work it took me a few minutes to figure out how to park the damn
thing cause I couldnt get it into gear
newyorker
Im pretty sure thats a pretty common thing, Ive driven a ton of car like
that epecially nice German cars, it works like a reverse lockout tard. Its
so you dont slam R thinking its a 6 speed or doing other shit.
Enthusiast
Yes but this was an automatic...I know what you mean, the AP1 s2000 has the
same thing, as do Jettas, golfs, audis, etc. Its pretty pointless to have
on an automatic car especially when your shifter pattern isnt even in a
straight line!
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2084/aveo37ko.jpg
You really would have to be a tard to put it in reverse gear with that
pattern, you would almost have to try. I dont see a point for it, then
again it might be designed for the kinds of people that drive those cars
newyorker
shit this turned into another argument quick
99integra
Okay.....I didn't even want to get into this shit, but I had to say
something.
Newyorker, you're a ****ing moron. Blasting all "domestic" vehicles simply
because they're domestic is beyond inane. Seriously. You claim that they
have no reliability. I have personally seen SEVERAL domestics in the
half-million mile mark, on ORIGINAL engines. Hell, we retired an 80's Dodge
Ram Custom 150 on the farm a few years back that was over 600,000 on it's
original engine AND tranny. My friend's uncle owns a mid 70's Ford with
nearly 500,000 on the odometer, and it's damn near MINT. That's just TWO
examples of reliability. So to try and say that every domestic is
unreliable is just plain ****ing ignorant. You also claim that the
interiors are "cheap and plastic". That's not always the case. Have you
ever actually looked at some of the domestic vehicles interiors? Probably
not, from the sounds of it.
Furthermore. I have several friends who have owned Civics, Accords,
Tiburons, and the like. A few of them have run them problem free, but
likewise, a couple have had nothing since headaches since day 1. One had
his '05 Civic Reverb at the dealership almost weekly for one problem or
another, finally Honda gave up and broke the lease without penalty for him.
Hell, I even had a friend with a BMW X5 that was having problems out the
ass. (Okay, sue me, I went to the 'rich' school, and it was his daddy's
money that got him the BMW.)
Needless to say, you are an uneducated ignorant ****tard, to put it kindly.
Clearly you lack the ability to have a cogent argument, probably due to a
lack of actively firing synapses in that mush you believe is a brain.
dodgerforlife
No argument that GM made great cars before the early-mid 90s, but im
looking for a new car, so domestics fall out. Sue me, but thats my opinion,
and im entitled to it. Let me put it this way, and Nissan_Altima knows this
guy as well so dont even call BS. Me and him know a kid named Stan, and
Stan's dad works at the local ford dealership. He himself told my parents
"these cars are not selling, and are trash. We sell a few mustangs, but
other than that, its very slow and the cars are very poor quality". Il
leave american cars to be driven by the people they were designed for.
Overpatriotic americans, cause quite frankly thats all I see now...every
single american cars has a "god bless america" sticker like it came from
the factory, everyone with half a brain (intelligent people) have left
american cars to the morons. I love older american cars, anything pre 1990,
and I think some of the classics are still the most beautiful cars out
there, but try to put me in one of these newer ones, I wouldnt be caught
dead in it. My idea of a good car is a high power import. someone elses
idea of a good car might be a high power domestic..the difference is
domestic cars do not handle at all with the exeption of the corvette and a
few others..shit I was talking to a muscle car guy last night he even said
"american cars are only good for straight line" import cars are good for
everything
S2000
remarkable handling
2 liter
240 horsepower
9000rpm
amazing reliability
convertible
13.8-14.2 in the 1/4 stock
go ahead id love to see americrap pull something like that, or if not that,
just making a fun car, that doesnt cost 70k like the vette.
newyorker
Pontiac Solstice
Saturn Sky
What
So what you're saying is that all domestic cars handle poorly except the
ones that don't. The same could be said about the imports.
Alright:
LS1 F-body
.9 on the skidpad
5.7 liter (but who gives a f*ck)
340 hp
5500RPM (I think, but once again, who gives a f*ck)
You've got me on reliability (stock)
Convertable, hardtop, or t-top
12.9-mid 13's in the 1/4 stock
Do I think the F-Body is a better car? Nope. But they are in the same
ballpark to me.
I was with you earlier in the thread, when you were just speaking you're
opinion. I don't care if you hate a car for no reason, your loss.
However, to come on here spewing you're generic ignorant BS is, well...BS.
Yes, many GM interiors are cheapish. But it seems odd that somebody says
that they know that the GTO has a shitty interior even though they refuse
to even sit in one.
giant016
9000 RPM?
Not that it matters, but it's one of the things he said.
jedimario
drove both at work, nothing remotely fun about them. I like the look of
but would never drive one
newyorker
59 horsepower per liter is just bad. Yes it has a LOT of torque on it, and
yes in a line its faster than an s2k hands down but its nowhere near as
fun. Try chucking a little RWD honda into a turn going 80, and try the same
thing with the f-body. You will have more weight pushing you out, more body
roll. The s2000 was made to be driven, the f-body i see grandpas drivin em.
However, we had a meet close to here il post pictures of some of the muscle
cars that were there they were really nice. It was mostly trans-am though.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/vwcorradokid/LS1Tech%20Meet/LS1TechM
eet-5Signed.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/vwcorradokid/LS1Tech%20Meet/LS1TechM
eet-4Signed.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/vwcorradokid/LS1Tech%20Meet/LS1TechM
eet-23Signed.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/vwcorradokid/LS1Tech%20Meet/LS1TechM
eet-11Signed.jpg
newyorker
Dude your a dick. I have a Ford Explorer 1992 and it is god darn reliable,
it yanks, and it slides predictably. Its a fun car and it has 191k on the
original engine. Most likely still has the factory cross hatching in the
bores and I beat on it. I drop the clutch, I down shift to redline, etc.
Your straight up ignorant if you are going to go off what a couple people
say rather than looking for yourself, feeling it, driving it etc. Same goes
for the Ford service technician. Why doesn't he go work somewhere else if
he feels the vehicles he is servicing are so terrible? Better yet, why
doesn't he fix them so they aren't? There isn't some magical spice put into
domestic cars that makes them unreliable.
The S2000 is a joke of a car by the way. 240hp and 3000lbs is not a good
ratio for a sports car, never mind that, it gets 0-60 in what 5.8? It is
outclassed in almost EVERY catagory by other cars like the 350z. It doesn't
have a 9,000 rpm redline, Honda was having relibaility witht he 2.0L due to
high revs so they switched to the 2.2 to lower the redline and try and add
more torque. The handling is good, but it isn't all that.
Ya, America doesn't have very many sports car offerings right now besides
the Corvette, Solstice, and Sky. But those 3 cars are all great cars, so I
don't see where you can find fault with that. The fact of the matter is,
you drive a civic and your now talkin trash and dishin out about the
performance of vehicles you know NOTHING about. It isn't a matter of
patriotism for SOOOO many people. It is the fact that you can build a 500hp
daily driveable reliable engine for under $3,000 REAL EASY. You can stick
that in a US chassis between 3000 and 3500lbs and your already infinately
better than an S2000. What can you do to an S2000? Swap a 700lb Supra motor
in?
rudypoochris
Hes a salesman, not a service tech. Congrats on your explorer, like I said
the cars up to the early-mid 90s were good, then it turned to shit. I think
that spice is called poor engineering
**** the Z. The S is not 3000lbs, its 2770 IIRC, im talking about an
AP1...or AP2 doesnt matter ive driven both and they are both spectacular,
unlike all of these domestics people keep naming. Its an amazing car, you
just want to join the bandwagon and talk shit. Go ahead, you will never win
with me. The AP1 is 2770 AP2 is 2855. 3000lbs blow me
Ever heard of Turbochargers? Superchargers? Im talking here about stock
performance, because thats what shows which car maker knows how to make and
which doesnt. Honda motors are amazingly engineered, as well as the rest of
the cars. I cant say the same about american cars, nor will I until they
actually make something good.
newyorker
Shut the f*ck up. How many f*cking pistion engine cars have a 9000 rpm
redline? NAME ONE FERRARI.
SHUT THE F*CK UP.
No one can match that.
What
Here is a little something for the rest of you guys from wikipedia.
The Honda S2000 F20C engine produces the highest horsepower per liter for
any naturally aspirated piston engine currently sold on the market that is
less than $100,000 , at 120 horsepower (89 kW) per liter. It is followed by
the B16B engine found in the 1996-2000 Honda Civic Type R (Japan only)
producing 115.625 horsepower per liter (185 hp through 1.6 liters),
followed by the 2007 Honda Civic Type-R K20A developing 111 horsepower (83
kW) per liter (222 hp through 2.0 liters) which is followed by both the 2ZZ
powered Celica Sports-M (UK only) developing 110 horsepower (82 kW) per
liter (200 hp through 1.8 liters) and the B18C5+ found in the Honda Integra
Type R that also developed 110 horsepower (82 kW) per liter(~200 hp through
1.8 liters).
Id love to see a domestic pull that off. And why is it that everyone who is
driving a big SUV with a ford or chevy badge on the back seems to be
driving like its their first day behind the wheel?? To show my disliking
for domestics, id take a super unreliable VW over any domestic...at least
it would be more fun to drive while it works
newyorker
What does horsepower per liter have to do with anything? A much better
thing to consider would be like pounds (weight) per horsepower or dollar
(price) per horsepower
chris_knows
This is where american cars take the cake, but with high power and low
price comes low quality. Horsepower per liter is what I use to see how well
engineered a motor is. 59 horses per liter is not hard to do like the
f-body, shit my civic gets 67 per liter. Make me a list of naturally
aspirated engines with over 100, and arrange from lowest price to
highest...imports will be first, then european exotics simply because of
their cost. Im doing valet for the people who work at Breitling today,
apparently there are rumors of ferrari, lambo, porsche, and cars of the
likes so il try to snag some pix
newyorker
Okay, more ignorant blather. HP per Litre means shit obviously. So what if
a Honda can crank out a 102hp/litre ratio? Does that make it any better
then a v8 cranking out 340hp? Hell no! And you do realize that those tiny
little tin can engines need to run those ridiculously high RPM's to attain
that kind of power, and that they don't really get into their power band
until they're way up in the RPM's? A V8 can create low-rpm torque and
horsepower, and a hell of a lot more of it then your little engines. It's
really quite funny that an engine that's twice the size of your little
engine, with lower hp/litre ratios, will still walk all over you.
As for stock performance, just because domestic manufacturer's had the
insight to install FACTORY Turbo's, technically making them stock. You
contradict yourself. First you say "Stock Performance", then you go on to
say you're talking about "Naturally Aspirated". You chump. If you want
"Stock Performance", include FACTORY-TUNED cars. Hell, back in the early
90's, dodge was using a 2.2 DOHC turbo that created 224hp - that's right,
102hp/litre STOCK. Don't give me shit about being N/A. It also didn't need
to spool to 9000RPM to see those numbers either. Those numbers were being
cranked at 6000RPM. How about we come a little more modern? Seems there was
a 2.4L SRT-4 engine, which put down 245hp, which is again 102hp/L. Hell,
the '08 Caliber SRT-4 will be throwing 285hp from the 2.4L world engine.
That's almost 120hp/L.
Furthermore, you complained about the reliability. However, you must
realize that there is right now, a 3:1 ratio of american vehicles on the
road as compared to imports. Granted, the trend is changing, but american
vehicles are still the most popular here. That OBVIOUSLY means there is
going to be more complaints about them! There's no way you're going to get
around that.
dodgerforlife
N/A or turbo I dont care, im talking about stock for stock. With the srt4
putting down that power there is MAJOR torquesteer through gears 1 and 2,
and i expect the same from the caliber...but hey we are american we only
want to brag about how powerful our cars are, we will never really utilize
any of that power but just trot along on the highway doing 55 so everyone
passing us can see how nice a car we have. **** that philosophy. on the
other hand i drove the 2.2 liter turbo shadow you speak of an I thought it
was a great car. The fact of the matter is, there are very few
manufacturers out there now that can match the quality of import cars,
thats why as you said the trend of american cars is slowly changing, and GM
workers are losing their jobs because the big guys cant compete.
and back to what you first said, yes an f-body will walk an s2k, simply
because it has more cylinders. when i say engineering, i mean the ability
to make power from such a small displacement. yes it takes tuning to make a
turbo engine last and perform, but its a LOT easier to make power from a
factory turbo car than N/A. Take for example. Bugeye WRX 2.2 liter H4 turbo
227 horsepower (or 222 not sure), s2000 2 liter N/A 240 horsepower. Both
are great cars, but simply comparing engineering ability, the s2k is my
vote, especially since the bugeye WRX has a glass transmission and very
fragile drivetrain in general.
newyorker
Listen New York weve had the HP per liter discussion and it ricer math nand
pretty much ****ing useless. It doesnt get you shit and doesnt win races.
All you can use it for is your ****ing ricer excuses.
And s2000s arent that bad ass. Actually go drive one HARD and quit being a
nut swinger. They are underpowered and I think they handle sloppily, like
most stock cars.
And S2000s are very unreliable.
Enthusiast
Didnt you **** up your honda tranny with just 115 hp. There is reliablity
for you, haha.
Stock F-body T56s can handle upwards of 600hp if taken care of.
Enthusiast
Thats because I was chirping from 1st to 2nd on a routine basis and doing
rough shifts
newyorker
No horsepower per liter is a good way to see who engineers their cars
better...its a lot harder to crank out 120 than 59
I HAVE driven one hard. My brother has an AP2 red and its an amazing car.
Nothing underpowered or sloppy about it from what I recall, and I drove the
thing for about 6 hours, HARD
LOL ok dude the one thing I dont like is they need valve adjustments every
30k miles IIRC...everything else is stellar
newyorker
First of all they are doing 107hp/liter currently, 120hp/liter WAS NOT
RELIABLE WHICH CAUSED THE SHIFT TO THE F22C.
Secondly, there are stock OHV engines popping out 70+hp/liter... and? They
are doing it with OHV... Think about the huge limitation that places on the
maximum potential breathability. It is done so that the engine can remain
light, have a low CG, and be small amongst other things. Hence why a Ford
302 can turn out plenty of power in a tiny, very light package.
No, it really isn't. You can get a 60's Ford small block to over
100hp/liter easily. No one really does it though since it is pointless. You
kill your low end torque, lower engine life, drivability, and hurt
performance compared to simply adding displacement. BMW was turning out
1200hp out of 1.4L turbo motors. They said it was like an on/off switch and
was pointless except it was the only way to compete based off of the old
racing regulations (I believe it was some form of F1).
Think about this one... its the year 2007, Honda has an S2000, a sports car
with 237hp!
Now this one... its the year 1987, Ford has a Mustang, a sports 2+2 with
225hp!
20 years of engineering, and? And nothing. The Fox weighs within 100lbs of
the S2000 and it has two extra seats.
You have FWD wheel slip and 115hp??? And you broke a trans? What a joke.
That is hardly shock loading. How about my roomates 300zx, 200ftlbs, slams
the gear EVERYTIME we go out, slams the launch. What about my 4250lb
Explorer with 225ftlbs slamming? And your trans bit it off 115hp and
probably less torque? Be real, you think anything that engine is going to
put through FWD compares to the kind of beating a RWD, heavy, powerful car
will do? They manage to do just fine...
Lastly, and this is the important bit. If you compare a dyno of a high
displacement low HP/liter engine vs. a low displacement high HP/liter
engine you will be surprised. Turns out the high displacement motor being
less strung up has a wider powerband... more area under the curve. Much
more. A measured 14% more comparing a Ford 302 to an S2000 motor from
3000-5000 on the 302 and 5280-8800 for the F20C. Thats not even including
the normal street powerband, that is merely all out performance driving.
The S2000 will suffer considerably more the rest of the powerband. Also
notice that the S2000 makes only 198hp on the chassis dyno but the 302
pulls 202hp despite the fact that the S2000 was rated for 240hp, and the
302 for a mere 225hp. Drivetrain loss figures in as well, drag increases
with the square of speed. Thus high RPM motors suffer from much more power
loss than a low RPM motor. Which is why the S2000 gets poor times for its
power to weight ratio compared to other competitors.
rudypoochris
Alright, please answer me this: What benefit does a 2.X liter engine
making 240hp have over a 5.7 liter engine making 340hp? I don't see any,
seeing has the 5.7 engine weighs almost the same. So why would they waste
money to engineer it? They are different car companies that make things
differently, HP/Liter doesn't make a car better engineered unless perhaps
Honda came out with a 5.7 liter that still had the 120hp/liter and still
was able to keep the costs low and reliability high.
The S2000 pulls about the same (sometimes less depending on the sources) on
the skidpad as the F-body. Let me spell that out for you: your tiny import
roadster DOESN'T outhandle the 3500+lb V8 American musclecar that even has
a backseat. I think that shows some shitty engineering, perhaps they
shouldn't have been so worried about hp/liter.
giant016
I wonder WHY there's torquesteer......Oh yeah! It ACTUALLY produces torque!
A hell of a lot more torque then the s2000, to be exact. So of course when
your sitting on about 250ft-lbs of torque, you can expect it. And for shits
and giggles, imagine driving a bobtailing semi, with over 1400ft-lb torque.
Now that is some serious torque to hold down.
Isn't that the same bullshit you're pulling right now? "OMGWTFROFLOLCOPTER
my import does 102hp/L, your American car doesn't!" And it also sounds like
you're advocating driving like a retard. If the speed limit is 55, drive
55. You need to be driving several hours to make speeding worthwhile,
anything an hour and under doesn't make it worth it. I'm sorry if most
people understand that, and the concept seems a little to difficult for you
to grasp.
Like I said previously, there's a 3:1 ratio of Domestics to Imports on the
road in North America, so that means if the quality is the same, you'll
still have 3x as many complaints, and unfortunately the media only
concetrates on the number of complaints, not on the number of vehicles on
the road. I'll even give a nod to Ford on this one, look at the F-series
pickup trucks, they've been around since 1948. How the hell is that not
longevity?! Oh, and don't forget, the F-Series has been the top-selling
vehicle in the USA for over two decades. In 2006, THREE GMC vehicles were
on the top 10 sales list, GMC is cutting so many jobs is because of several
reasons. Firstly, the plants don't need as many people to run them anymore,
with so much robotic manufacturing done. Secondly, the union is keeping
wages way up there, and that's a huge money pit for any manufacturer.
Thirdly, they lost a pissload of money in R&D over the last couple of
years. Give them a few more years to finish reshaping things, and they'll
be rock-solid again.
Again, that's ignorance speaking. Just because it can produce those
numbers, at very high RPM's, does not make it any more 'advanced' in
regards to engineering. I bet you if other manufacturers were building
engines to spool up to that RPM, you'd be seeing just as high, if not
higher numbers. And how about you compare the SRT-4 to the S2K? The SRT-4
definitely has a drivetrain built to withstand the power, and abuse that
some drivers put them through. Hell, guys running 550+whp on the SRT-4 are
still using stock transmissions and they still hold up.
dodgerforlife
The s2000 is a better piece of engineering than the mustang nad a better
car overall than the new mustang as well. it uses better technology, and
corners better than a 3000+ pound american piece of crap with no new
technological development whatsoever except the guage cluster having 100+
backlight colors. **** the mustang, and all american cars for that matter
with the exception of the vette, viper, and...well thats it. I dread
driving them, and at work I already know what car is going to have what
problem becase its all too common between them all.
newyorker
What makes them technologically superior? VTEC is in use on domestics, just
under a different acronym. DOHC and 4 valves per cylinder have been in use
since the '30s. And isn't it funny how your Honda engine doesn't even grace
the Ward's Top 10 Engines list...yet 4 domestic engines are on it.
Even funnier, Honda hasn't really come up with anything new...ever. 9/10
new developments in vehicles are either European, or Domestic.
Just give it up. Ignorance really must be bliss.
dodgerforlife
VTEC is all honda, all I see now are copies used by different
manufacturers. Lets not forget what cars last, and which ones dont. Sure
older domestics were indestructable, hell my pontiac went 152k before I
crashed it and im sure it would still be running strong today with 200k+,
but the new stuff they make is just blah. I like a few domestic cars, but
thats all. I would take a range rover sport over an escalade, a passat 2.0t
over an accord, and a fod gt over most any ferrari just for the price
difference, and the car wouldnt see enough miles to actually get to the
point where it breaks, but for sheer engineering, american cars do nothing
for me
newyorker
How is it better?
The Mustang is faster, cheaper, has more seating...
What technological developement is so great in the S2000 compared to the
Mustang?
Sorry you dread driving them, do you think someone who drives a Mustang GT
wouldn't dread driving a Honda Civic? Same goes for drivers or Supras,
300zx's, Camaros, etc. Not even that guy from the fast and the furious
probably enjoys driving a Civic, LOL. :screwy: We already know your logic
is off, no point in telling us you dread driving american cars, we get
that, we're all just trying to find out why.
Is it because you can FEEL it has less hp/liter and that makes you
upset?
Is it because you can FEEL the torque as you rocket through the ENTIRE
powerband?
Is it because you have a Honda and feel that should allow you to be stuck
up and to smell your own farts?
Is it because you are just disagreeable and don't want to face the
facts?
or Is is because you are just plain intolerable of a different way of
achieving similar or better performance? Must really bother you how much
better a performer for less money cars like the 350z are, yet it only makes
85hp/liter with DOHC. Is it Honda or die?
rudypoochris
Variable valve timing has about a thousand abbreviations. Click here
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing#VVT_Implementations) to
see most/all of them.
chris_knows
No its because to me, american cars have a lower (much) quality feel than
their import and european rivals, thats all. If im going to go out and
spend 60k on a brand new SUV, Il pay the 60k for a range rover that has
every feature to match the escalade and then some, still does 0-60 in 7 and
15.4 in the 1/4, still luxurious, but doenst feel like a plastic wedge when
you are driving it. To me its worth the price difference to have a quality
car, not just any ol SUV. Same goes for cars. Would I take a passat or a
malibu? Any day of the week, for the same exact reasons. Thats just my
take. If im going to be spending money on a new car (and this isnt what i
call pocket change), I want to get something that I will enjoy, and
something that will serve me well, rather than something I dont like.
newyorker
Haha you ignorant piece of shit, I do believe buick was the first to use
variable valve timing. I think it was in 53 and it was for economy.
Enthusiast
well obviously honda made it work, cause i dont see that on buicks...in
fact i dont see buicks at all anymore
newyorker
You ignorant retarded wannabe. VTEC was introduced in the 80's. ****ing
FIAT of all manufacturer's had VVT in the late 60's. How in the SHIT can
you claim that VVT is a Honda invention? They were copying something
already in place, you asstard.
dodgerforlife
I guess that because Honda have made such a big thing if it in recent
years, he just took it that they were the first manufacturer to use
it.....It was an ignorant statement I suppose, but I can see his side of it
(I think, lol....)
Cliffy
Just because people buy it doesn't mean Honda made it work. I guess Honda
must have superior engineering in the badge department as well, seeing as
Type R badges sell better than Cobra or SS badges.
Buicks are considered to be some of the highest quality cars being built
right now in their price range.
And you never answered my question as to why domestic companies would want
to steer away from making 300+hp V8s and spend the extra time and money
into engineering a less powerful (yet just as heavy and expensive) 4
cylinder that makes more power/liter.
My car makes more power per cupholder. This makes GMs better somehow,
Honda is using old cupholder engineering technology.
giant016
Now you are just acting like an idiot. Maybe buicks are some of the highest
quality cars in their price range right now, but I still dont see any. Shit
ive been doing valet for a month, and with over 1000 cars that we have had
come through, I havent seen a single newer buick, only one older one that
looked like a ~1992 century. And I never said they should. Why would they
put a less powerful motor into a heavy car like the mustang. If they could
make 240 horses from even a 2.2 N/A motor for the Focus, that would be
impressive.
newyorker
Can I just ask a question? Why is it that you Yanks (rash generalisation
that just seems to hold more true for Americans than other nationalities)
always seem to preface your arguments with a personal attack like that
above, or "you're a dumbass" or something similar?
By doing this, you will always put the other person off-side immediately
and any valid argument you have from that point on will always be
disregarded and you will never manage to make the other person see your
point of view properly, no matter how right you may be...
windsonian
Not all of us are like that Windy. It's the new generation. They're
bombarded with that sort of crap everyday. It's in our movies,
commercials, porn, hell even our congressmen do it. Complete breakdown of
civilization. (sigh)
Newyorker:
I put 4 kids through college.
Two listened to father and bought nice used cars for cash.
Two bought new cars with big payments.
Two went to all the parties, ball games, concerts, other fun stuff.
Two stayed home every weekend, because they were broke from those big car
payments.
Two of them loved college.
Two of them hated college.
Guess which two?
Putting yourself in debt at 19 is a very stupid thing to do. No hill for
you of course.
Keep your old car.
Rethink your thought processes, Every time you start one of these, you get
your ass handed to you. Why do you continue to think your the only one who
is right? You should learn from making the same mistakes over and over and
over . . . and over . . . and over . . .
PS:
The S2000 is one of the most sorry pieces of crap, I ever owned.
there, I said it, and I stand by it.
jcutsh
I did much the same thing. Went and bought a new car at 19, although not in
college. Sick of paying bills all the time. It totally blows.
dodgerforlife
Not all of us are like that Windy. It's the new generation. They're
bombarded with that sort of crap everyday. It's in our movies,
commercials, porn, hell even our congressmen do it. Complete breakdown of
civilization. (sigh)
Newyorker:
I put 4 kids through college.
Two listened to father and bought nice used cars for cash.
Two bought new cars with big payments.
Two went to all the parties, ball games, concerts, other fun stuff.
Two stayed home every weekend, because they were broke from those big car
payments.
Two of them loved college.
Two of them hated college.
Guess which two?
Putting yourself in debt at 19 is a very stupid thing to do. No hill for
you of course.
Keep your old car.
Rethink your thought processes, Every time you start one of these, you get
your ass handed to you. Why do you continue to think your the only one who
is right? You should learn from making the same mistakes over and over and
over . . . and over . . . and over . . .
PS:
The S2000 is one of the most sorry pieces of crap, I ever owned.
there, I said it, and I stand by it.
jcutsh
Much better then I could ever say jcutsh
rudypoochris
Already told him that 100 posts ago but as if he's going to listen to
me....
Hopefully he'll listen to you....
Mathew
Well the car goes in for the input shaft bearing on wednesday, as well as
clutch kit, so after spending 520 dollars on it, I dont think il want to
sell it right away. I fixed all of the rattles, and the car actually isnt
bad now, still drives great for the miles it has, and looks the part as
well. My neighbor thought it was brand new when I brought it home on the
first day. We will see how it goes, but unless I hit the lottery, Im not
sure a new car will be coming anytime soon. If I can drive it till end of
college, and get established with a nice job after finish, I will be able
to get something brand new then, and it wont be an economy car, rather a
large luxury sedan, or a sports car
newyorker
Congratulations, you just wasted EIGHT PAGES OF THE INTERNET.
Mathew
forget the fit... get si...si looks MUCH nicer
a_gopowyk
