O2 Question

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I HAVE A QEUSTION I HAVE BEEN WANDERING IF IT WILL WORK. COULD I TAKE A BOTTLE OF COMPRESSED AIR AND SET SEVERAL VALVES IN IT AND RELEASE OXYGEN DIRECTLY INTO MY INTAKE WOULD IT WORK HAS ANYONE EVER TRIED IT:confused:

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

Yeah, that's basically what a nitrous oxide system does.

There are actually two similar devices that have already been created called superchargers and turbochargers which do the same thing, but it's constant pressure, and with less pressure.

No need for Caps Lock BTW.

posted by  chris_knows

Yes Well I No That I Have A Turbo Car I No How Nos Works And Everything I Am Just Wandering If Shooting In Air Threw A Can Wont Work Becouse It May Not Have Enough Air Pressure For My Car To Effec It I Mean

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

His wouldnt generate enough pressure to be worth even .5psi in turbo terms. You cant just slap a hairdryer on your intake and have it work like forced induction....wait you can! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Electric-Supercharger-All-Makes-All-Models- HP-Turbo_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ012QQitemZ220179839714QQrdZ1Q QsspagenameZWDVW)

OP, good luck with your idea. Im sure using air in a sprite bottle will tremendously help increase horsepower....wow I dont even know where to start so I just wont :banghead:

posted by  newyorker

sorry about capps lock

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

no but i can probally change the air demnsity if i could make it could just like a intercooler

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

Finally something makes sense. Short answer, no. The air in a nitrous system is under pressure, its not something that a coca cola bottle can handle. Furthermore, you would have to run lines, a nozzle, etc.etc. You are better off just buying a ready off the shelf kit, they arent that expensive anymore, Ive seen them even in the 300 area brand new, and its proven to help. Just dont forget to upgrade all necessary components when you install, and the car tuned.

P.S. Its called Nitrous

posted by  newyorker

Air density and air volume are different things. Air volume is the ammount, air density would be determined by mainly temperature. This is why turbo cars have intercoolers. The air coming in through the turbo gets very hot, goes through the intercooler and cools down again...thats why youll notice one side of an intercooler is always very hot, and one is rather cool. I cant even keep up with what ur saying...are you still on this "bottle" theory

posted by  newyorker

dude i no that i dont mean to be an ass but am in school for genetic engineering i have to learn chemistry also i no what it dose

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

Do they teach you grammar in school??? Seems like they dont.

Ask your questions so I can at least understand what ur saying lol

posted by  newyorker

haha every one tells me that i just hate typeing correctly

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

So what car do you have, where do you live, and what non-hackjob ideas do you have

posted by  newyorker

its a waste off time just eaiser to abbreiviate ure first sentnces were not to hot either

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

wtf?? im lost...again :banghead:

posted by  newyorker

alabama
i have a
1.saturn ion red line
2.240sx with sr20det and silvia conversion
3.a 1998 gsx eclipse

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

So which car is bein talked about...

sounds like BS to me

posted by  newyorker

ideas for my eclipse are well i hace a t3/t4 hybrid turbo,750cc fuel injectors,spearco front mount intercooler and tons of turbo goodies although i have to sell my 240sx to afford to work on my gsx

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

i can put pictures up but my computer internet wnet down the other day and now i am on my laptop and dont have the right stuff to put pics on here

posted by  IMPORTMASTER101

I sure hope your not throwing that hack job air crap on that gsx or you can expect to sell the saturn for more repairs as well. Also it's really not that hard to type correctly on the internet. It must suck to talk too because you gotta breathe and move your mouth more.:banghead:

posted by  Spanky2324

:laughing:

That compressed air thing is like the guy who wanted to run his A/C into his intake. It would result in like a 16% gain, but the A/C would need a lot of power to run. On the other side, a little can of compressed air that you use for blowing dust would not provide enough pressure to do anything.

posted by  chris_knows

it would be enough to blow dust off of the air filter

posted by  newyorker

no shit! That's fairly obvious, because none of your responses have had any relevance.

ImportMaster: some of the issues are:
- What kind of pressure can you get out of the bottle?
- How big is the bottle? ie: how long will it run for?

The advantage of a turbo or supercharger is that they're not providing consumable air. That is, the air supply is self-renewing. The issue with the bottle is that even if you can get the desired effects, it will only be a temporary advantage, unlike a super/turbo which will keep providing its advantage as long as the turbine keeps running.

posted by  windsonian

He wasnt asking about that, he was asking about a bottle...looks like you wouldnt know 1 from 2 if they were 20 inches up yours :banghead: ****ing dumbass

besides, i dont think hes coming back...i made him feel dumb enough for now

posted by  newyorker

what? I know he was asking about a bottle, which is why i mentioned the advantage of the conventional method vs a bottle. He was NOT talking about nitrous ..... hence the name of the thread.... so i don't think you made him feel anything.

And I still can't see where he mentioned a soft drink bottle.... maybe I'm just blind though?

posted by  windsonian

Well what kind of bottle can he use?? hes certainly not going to use a glass bottle...well you never know

posted by  newyorker

welllllll, maybe, just maybe, something like a compressed gas cylinder?:screwy: Which, if he had one large enough to add any power to a car for any amount of time would add an extra 200 lbs to the car, negating the effect that it might have given. But if it were compressed oxygen, in theory it could work, but it wouldn't last long, and it would be difficult to get sufficient volume out of the cylinder fast enough. Any gas that is stored in a cylinder doesn't last long because there is not all that much gas, unless it is stored in liquid form like propane. Just think of a fire extinguisher, weighs about 50 lbs and lasts about 30 seconds.

posted by  dvdrose18

read mr Rose's post, he's got the idea.

The theory is fine, the practicality is not.


[EDIT]:
Also, I seem to remember you saying this once:

So I thought I'd better be clear about it.
Here's the initial post we can refer to:

Now, your responses:

He said a bottle of compressed air. I don't know anyone that would store compressed air in a "sprite bottle". I'd like to see a scuba diver go down with a couple of sprite bottles on his back.


This is probably the best thing that you said in this thread, so you should have taken your own advice and "not started"


Why nitrous? We're talking about O2 here remember. Although, at this point i thought you might have twigged about what kind of bottle he was talking about.... where do you store your nitrous? Oh, in a bottle.... that's not a coke bottle.


Let's refer back to his post again where he mentions installing several valves with his bottle. I think he knows that he can't just unscrew the lid of his coke bottle and hold it in the intake plenum.


I assume you're talking about nitrous again? why?


correct.


Incorrect. Air volume is not the amount. It is ...... well.... the volume. Mass, volume and density are all related. The volume of air will be determined by the size of the "box" you're measuring it in or in this case, the inlet (and the speed at which it's flowing through the box),.

Yes, density IS determined by temperature, and this in turn alters the mass (or amount if you like) of air that will occupy a certain volume.

I'm not sure why you mentioned volume, because he didn't, and the only way you'll change the volume going into the engine is to change its velocity. Talking about using it like an intercooler IS talking about changing density moreso than velocity/volume.
He's obviously referring to the temperature/density that his air will come out of the bottle.... which, by expanding it through a valve, should be nice and cool.


It's a pet peeve of mine to pick on someone else's grammar and make a mistake of your own in the same breath. Don't or dont? Typo maybe, but when attacking someone else's grammar, make sure you dot the i's and cross the t's.


I think it was a general, theoretical question. Which car is quite immaterial.
Your responses sound like as much BS as his idea.


By that logic, you would have left a long time ago.

In closing, I think his idea won't work, but it deserves to be looked at without ridicule. He's thinking outside the box. Major engineering breakthroughs come by thinking outside the box rather than copying what's always been done before. Sure, 99% of ideas have probably been thought of before, or are technically flawed, but every blue moon, someone will look at a problem differently to how anyone else ever has .... and this is the person who can turn the world on its head. Or so go my thoughts anyway. :2cents:

posted by  windsonian

Lmao.:orglaugh:

posted by  67Coronet383

Then he obviously doesnt know the difference between a BOTTLE and a TANK...sounds like you dont either

nitrous is stored in a cank...co2...stored in a tank...in fact, any gas stored under any real pressure is stored in a tank...shit even propane

bottle...soft drinks...yea its carbonated...and has about 2psi

maybe he meant bottle as all of the tuners now call nitrous "the bottle"...I'm kinda used to the proper terminology so it maybe threw me off

posted by  newyorker

if you want to use "proper terminology", maybe you should say "pressure vessel". Tanks are big armoured vehicles that blow stuff up.

posted by  windsonian

The stuff that you put into an air gun or paintball gun is a tank, the stuff you put in your car is called a bottle--I didn't just make that up, but most manufacturers refer to their products like that.

posted by  chris_knows

It's real name is a Nitrous Oxide Tank not a "Nitrous Oxide Filled Pressure Vessel"

posted by  newyorker

Yea, but thats just because of the new terminology for it..doesnt make it proper...its like everyone saying "Rims" instead of "Wheels" so now a lot of websites refer to it as a "Rim and Tire Package" instead of the proper "Wheel and Tire Package"...know what I mean?

posted by  newyorker

just because you say that doesn't make it "proper"

some links (the first ones i found):
bottle (http://paintballgi.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=225)

tank (http://homerepair.about.com/od/toolsmaterialsyouneed/ss/airtank.htm)

pressure vessel (http://www.drytechengineers.com/products3.htm)

It really doesn't matter.

But you may want to check out Australian Standards:
AS1200
AS1210

Or the international / US equivalents. I'm fairly sure pressure vessel is a correct term.

I'll give you tank as well, but also bottle.

posted by  windsonian

Yea. Im sure the Pressure Vessel is the real name, but from every enthusiast ive heard them say "Nitrous Tank", thats also the way that I have read it...yea they are starting to call it the bottle, but thats more of a "slang" thing.

posted by  newyorker

I know enough Engineers/Engineering students that you are either in your first semester, or not an Engineering major. They know that if you're going to take the time to do something, take the time to do it right.

In fact, I'd like to take this time to call BS on all accounts. Of course it's possible to own the cars he does and to be a Genetic Engineering student, but I'm betting he's in highschool playing with Matchbox cars, dreaming of Hotweels. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think somebody who understands Bioballistics can probably comprehend why typing like a 15 year could could give the impression that they are a 15 year old.:2cents:

posted by  giant016

So, "new terminology" doesn't make something proper, but "every enthusiast you've heard" does make it proper?
so that's not proper? if all of them say it, will it be?

also, i'd like to add cylinder to the mix :mrgreen:

posted by  windsonian

LOL ok smart guy :laughing: . Im just used to hearing it that way...a lot of speed shops here sell nitrous tanks and nitrous tank refills (for the track of course :orglaugh: ).

We can also call it a container :smoke:

posted by  newyorker

Not trying to bust anyone's balls but I have to point out two things:

1) If he was to spray compressed air (~20% O2) out of a tank it would have to come out at such a volume in order to create any sort of pressurization effect in the cylinder that it would require a tank that is soo large that it the weight of it would negate any advantage. This is because unless this system blocked off the regular air intake then forcing the air in from the bottle would prevent the outside air from even entering the plenum. Then again we go back to needing a huge tank to acheive pressurization. Basically on paper it might work but then again so do a lot of things, but in practicallity no.

2) If he was to spray compressed oxygen (~100% O2) out of a tank, his engine would have to be incredibly stout with nothing but the strongest forged internals, and even then I would not recommend it. The reason people use N20 and not pure oxygen is due to the fact that pure oxygen is a hellacious oxidizer and would probably just cause the mixture to pre-detonate in the chamber and blow the motor to pieces. N20 (~33% O2) is a decent oxidizer (more oxygen in a given volume than you would get from air) hence you get the more power out of the combustion process than you do using air. Basically (and yes I am aware that this is overly simplified and I am not using the actual proper A/F ratioes and in these examples they are running very rich / lean depending):

1liter of Air (0.2liter of Oxygen) + 1liter Fuel = 2liters total combustible volume (0.2liter of O2) yielding 100 horspower (normal combustion)

0.6 liter of Air (0.12liter of Oxygen) + 0.4 liter of N20 (0.132liter of Oxygen) + 1.25liter of fuel = 2liters total combustible volume (0.252liter of O2) yielding 125 horsepower (25% increase in power over normal)

0.6liter of Air (0.12liter of Oxygen) + 0.4 liter of pure O2 (0.4liter of Oxygen) + 1 liter of fuel = 2liters total combustible volume (0.52liter of 02) yielding 260 horsepower (160% increase in power over normal)

Its the huge increase in available oxygen in the same volume that you would normally have air that would cause the combustion to become incredibly violent. So thats why people don't spray oxygen instead of nitrous, because motors are not designed for that reaction. Just imagine the possiblities if your motor could handle a shot of O2 instead of N2O...:hi: You would be talking in terms of 500, 750, 1000hp shots instead of 50, 75, 125. Of course that would be one impressive fuel system in order to compensate.

Now going back to using compressed air the whole goal there would be still to increase the amount of available oxygen in the chamber, but it would have to accomplish this by increasing the total volume of air by increasing pressure in the intake and cylinders in the same manner that a turbo / supercharger would. The big difference being how long would a 10lb bottle last spraying enough air to generate even say a modest 3-4psi?

I know the math is not 100% accurate, but its just being used as an example to prove a point, so someone with more experience in chemistry than I have feel free to jump in with the specifics.

posted by  Jaywalkersw

Oh c'mon NY'er, when somebody says "gas bottle" we all know exactly what they mean. Tit for tat.

posted by  Cliffy

No...I dont think he was...love tits though

posted by  newyorker

of course he f-ing was!!!!
you really think he was going to put valves in his coke bottle?

posted by  windsonian

yes...judging by his spelling its quite possible

posted by  newyorker

Only 2 spelling mistakes that i can see. One of which could be passed off as a typo quite easily. Sure, the grammar's not great, but you're trying to blame his spelling for your lack of comprehension. While making a spelling mistake of your own, no less!

posted by  windsonian

Actually more of a punctuation error than an out right spelling error, lol.....Still, I'm not one to nit-pick....:laughing:

posted by  Cliffy

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