Everything you need to know about intakes.

Home  \  Asian Imports  \  Everything you need to know about intakes.

There is a statement that I have making, wich is "All intakes are the same". Thats actually a open ended statement. Well, technically yes they are all the same. An AEM intake won't give you any more power than an APC intake would. The differences between them are so minute that the most expensive dyno would have a hard time figuring out the difference. Regardless to what material the intake is made out of, there would be little or no siginificant difference between the two. However, ther are two things that would diferentiate one product from another. That is intake air temperature and air-filter flow rate.

There are also two different types of intakes. You have your short ram or cold air, more commonly reffered to as CAI(Cold Air Induction). Short ram intakes consist of a shorter intake tube, where the air filter component rest near or within close proximity to your engine bay. Now some of you may say, "Why in the hell would you want your intake to suck in dirty, hot air?" Well you don't, and that is why the short ram is the less desireable of the two. The cold air intake is slightly different, as the tube is longer and places the filter component outside or further away from your engine bay. However, this too has is downsides, but I'll get to that later.

So now we have discussed the intakes. You may be wondering, "What about the filter". Well hold your horses. Most stock filters in your car are made of a lighter, looser form of paper than you would find in your printer. It usually consists of many layers of what appears to be a thick tissue paper. The only problem with paper is that, while it allows air to flow freely, it still holds back some of those precious oxygen molecules. However, the paper is cheap and does filter air very thourougly. The next level up are K&N's cotton filters that are soaked in a oil. The K&N's aftermarket filters work better than stock simply because they allow more air-flow and have more surface space. Now you may have squinted when I told you the cotton was soaked in oil. Well its not the oil you are thinking of, its a sticky type of oil that catch smaller particles in the air as it is filtered through the cotton intake cone. The K&N filter is quite efficient and even works better as it gets a moderatley dirtier. However, the cotton cone does allow some tiny particles into the engine. :(

The intake charge temperature, or temperature of the air entering your intake, has a great effect on power output. Engines make good power when the temperature from the intake greatly differs from the temperature of the exhaust. So if your exhust is coming out at 300 degrees farenheit, and you run your car at the drag strip in the fall and summer... the cooler fall air should give you more horsepower creating a better run. There are many ways of allowing cooler air to reach your intake, taking out head lights, creating cold air boxes, and modifying hoodscoops to directly give ambient air to your engine. Well before you get crazy with it, you should know that one major drawback with CAI systems is that you can suck up water into your engine. This can result in hydrolock.

Hydrolock is where a siffucient ammount of water enters your engine to the point it locks up and stops. If you get a few good squirts of water into your engine through your intake, the cylinder(s) could become dead cylinders and cause your engine to shut down. Theres a good chance you will not suck in enough to water to destroy the engine completley, but in the event that alot of waters enters your engine. The piston(s) would hit a wall of water within your cylinder, not be able to compress the water, the connecting rod would either bend or break and the next revolution of the crankshaft would send the broken rode through your engine block. Permanently damaging a once perfectly good engine.

Now AEM has done os the favor of creating a by-pass valve on intakes. You place this item between your intake tube(yeah you'll have to cut teh intake in half) . It consist of rubber like gasket with foam under it, and when water is sucked in the intake(this creates a pressure drop) the valve on this product opens up and allows air to flow in from the surrounding area while blocking the water from within the intake. After the water flows out of the intake, the pressure returns to normal, and the by-pass valve closes. Cool Eh? Well however cool it may be, the by-pass valve creates turbulence within the intakes airflow thus making a CAI(with a by-pass valve) less or equivalent in power to a short ram intake.

As I mentioned above, people have specially modified hoods that allow air to reach the intake, cut holes in bumpers, or remove headlights. This is what is known as a "Ram-Air" setup. Used for decades by domestic cars, this element on intake has been brought to the imports. The Ram-Air setup places the intake into air flow path of the vehicle creating more air in the filter and cooler intake air.

I have seen many people ask "Why does it matter what "kind" of air my intake breathes in?". Well lets go back to freshman chemistry and phsyics. You should know by now that colder air is far more dense than hot air. The air does'nt matter but the molecules of oxygen within make a difference. When any element is cold, the ammount of molecule movement is reduced and the molecules stay closer and packed together. If the element is hotter, the molecules move arround violently. Now if we have a group of soldiers marching single file line, side by side. They represent oxygen. We have a group of people running in a cluster that also represent oxygen. Now if I had an extremly large vaccum, I would be able to suck up more of the marching soldiers than the running people as they are more dense. Same with air intakes. The colder the air is, the more oxygen occupying a given volume is present. Quite simple huh?

IMPORTANT NOTE: All of your rice ass wantabes. Taking the cone, or filter off your intake will not allow you to take in more air. If you believe this, then you should re-vist your local chemist and phsyics teacher to have them explain to you the relevancy of surface volume. The larger the surface area, the more air your intake will be able to take in at one given intake stroke. So in theory a larger cone, to the point its not so large that you are not able to occupy all of the surface area, will give you better horsepower numbers.

There are probably more sciences that involve intakes than I can explain. This is just a basic guide to get you informed. I'm on my quest to battle ignroance. I hope this helps

-DSMer

posted by  DSMer

Nice, very helpful. Now I can pretend to be a pro on Intakes next time we get into a discussion about it with my friends. :laughing:

Thanks for the information, you know alot about cars.

posted by  Black Hatch

You don't need an intake, just strap a sock on your throttle body ;)

Nah, good post. Very informative.

PS - if you live where you have bumpy roads and lots of rain (ie washington) .... don't get a CAI .... hydrolock is not your friend. And don't trust the AEM bypass valve to help you. A friend of mine installed his just the way it said to, and the fittings weren't tight enough, his intake flexed, and sucked the bypass up into the intake and wedged open his throttle body. Fried his clutch and his ebrake to get his car to stop, and ended up taking it into a guard rail.

posted by  EK_Eran_Ek

I live in South Florida. Plenty of bumpy roads and rainy weather.

posted by  Black Hatch

DSMer: very good, useful post. Now I can school rice boys when the subject is brung up.

posted by  b_DuB13

i also have a cold air intake its maybe by aem and i found that the water bypass valve robed the car of a few ponies.So i run the car without it. As far as waterlocking goes unless youre driving threw a small river or lake aem cai are setup so u shouldn't have any problems. most of cai are setup so the filter is stuffed just behind the front bumper and protected by that and the splash gaurds in youre wheel well. so unless youre front bumper is completely submuged in water like from the headlight down no worries about waterlock

posted by  99hatch

i also have a cold air intake its maybe by aem and i found that the water bypass valve robed the car of a few ponies.
I've allready stated that in that entire article above.

So i run the car without it. As far as waterlocking goes unless youre driving threw a small river or lake aem cai are setup so u shouldn't have any problems.
Again, this is'nt true. Intakes suck in air. So as long as any water splashes up within the engine bay area you can get waterlock. It does'nt take alot of water just a few teaspoons.

most of cai are setup so the filter is stuffed just behind the front bumper and protected by that and the splash gaurds in youre wheel well. so unless youre front bumper is completely submuged in water like from the headlight down no worries about waterlock
Again, just not true. If this were true them AEM would have no reason to sell a by-pass valve. Iregardless to where your intake is located within the engine, it can still get water in it. Jeez I did'nt write an article so a dumbass like you could come along an critique it with false information.

posted by  DSMer

sorry dude must have skiped that part.as for the rest i should have just sad that's my setup and i have to problems with it.sorry man i new here didnt mean to mess up youre article..ill try and be more carefull with my wording my education its not so great...u cool with that homi.....

posted by  99hatch

No its my fault. I jumped the gun. Yeah you're right realisticly you're not going to get water in most CAI intakes, but I don't want to loosley say that. Don't want anyone quoting me for non-factual information. Again I'm sorry, my bad :thumbs:

posted by  DSMer

wait i have a few questions. Why do some people dont use air filter on their turbos.? Does the throttle body suck in the air when you press the trottle.?

posted by  CarEXPERT

You know to be a "carexpert" you sureley do ask alot of questions.

They don't use filters because they are idiots. Anyone who does'nt put a filter on their intake becuase they "get more power" are complete idiots. Surface area on a filter will give you more air than a not having a filter.

No the throttle body, thats connected to a cable on your throttle pedal merely rotates and opens. The intake stroke, or decrease in pressure of your combustion chamber is what causes air to be "sucked" in.

posted by  DSMer

Hold up sir, so when you press the throttle, the throttle body opens letting air in and through the intake valves?

posted by  CarEXPERT

The names DSMer, or DSM.

When you press the throttle it pulls a cable that opens a cicular valve. The increase in air flow causese the engines computer to inject more fuel wich causese the engine to have a more powerful explosion thus making the engine work harder and increasing the RPMs.

posted by  DSMer

DSMer Where do they measure the engine RPM at. Is it at the belt?

also does the belt connect to the cam gears? Do u know about the aftermarket cam gears that are adjustable? Why would you want to adjust the cams? doesnt it adjust it for you already?
Thanks in advance DSMer.

posted by  CarEXPERT

The ecu moniters the engines rotational speed through sensors located usually on the crankshaft. Although there are many other places to measure RPMs.

posted by  DSMer

Im talking about the RPM thats on the gauges in the drivers seat next to the speedometer and the steering wheel. They dont measure that RPM on the crank. Is it the belt.

posted by  CarEXPERT

No it monitors the RPM of the engine. Thats the only tachometer there is. Why would a gauge monitor a belt?

posted by  DSMer

RPM= rotation per minute so which part of the engine are you talking about.
The tachometer.. yes. It cant be the crank because thats where they measure horsepower and if it is the crank why does when the car shift the RPM go down.

posted by  CarEXPERT

If you're going to sit here and argue then stop asking for advice. Why does measuring horsepower at the crank make it impossible to also measure RPM from the crank?

Theres things called engine speed sensors or crank shaft sensors. These sensors or the ignition coil create an electronic pulse everytime the crank spins. This pulse is then picked up at the ECU module and converted into a voltage signal that moves the needle of a tachometer. On newer cars the sensors do it all electronically and the ecu just sends the right current to the tachometer to move the needle.

Every engine has an optimal RPM range where it is the most efficient. You wan't to stay in that range. So when a car shifts it either moves to a smaller or larger gear to stay in the optimal RPM range. The shifting from one gear to another is where you get you RPM "loss"

posted by  DSMer

i didnt mean to argue with you and i appriciate the advice and information but if you shift gears at high RPM then you lose RPM so it means the crank slows down when you shift gears? So are you saying that the RPMs on the tachometer is measured at the crankshaft?

If you want max performance from your engine should you redline? I know it messes up the engine when you redline but would it give you that extra boost?

posted by  CarEXPERT

I don't think that can be avoided when talking to DSMer :laughing:. Oh and when are you going to change your name to carNOVICE? :mrgreen:

posted by  GreekWarrior

Now about that question, like DSMer said you have to keep the car in it's rpm 'range', as an example you see the some japanese race drivers teasting out cars and they usually use a racing technique called Heel and Toe, now this technique is all about keeping the car in it's rpm 'range' when down shifting especially in NA cars.

posted by  GreekWarrior

:cussing: Yes i knw that but it still doesnt answer my question with the redlineing! :cussing:
Im talking about in a drag race too. do people redline to get more horsepower?

posted by  CarEXPERT

Drag racing is a completly different gearing scneario from road racing or daily driving. Redline shifting is something you see in video games. In reality you shift at the proper RPM that will give the next gear optimum RPM range or close to it. IT all depends on the car, I can't really tell you other than what I've actually drag raced.

posted by  DSMer

Why do I keep picturing an eagle circling an unsuspecting rabbit?

To say I'm flabbergasted would be an understatement.

posted by  Wally

That pretty much sums it up, there is not point revving lets just say for example 1992 Mitsubishi Lanser GSR now this is a graet little car that is virtually lag free thanks to its small turbo but does run out of puff near the top end of the rev range at about 5500rpm so there is no real point in revving this to redline.

posted by  GreekWarrior

:confused: Thanks everybody...
This question has been bugging me and hopefully someone that is sure and answer this for me
In your car, there is a tachometer(RPM meter) near the stearing wheel. Where do they measure that RPM at? When I rev a car, the engine goes louder and the belt shakes a little and spins faster. DSMer said they measure it at the crank but why when i rev my engine the belt spins faster? So does this mean they measure the RPM at the engine belt? PLEASE help me

posted by  CarEXPERT

As far as i know the RPM is measured at the flywheel/flexplate. But I might be wrong.

posted by  Coffin Type R

How sure are you? Cuz like I said when i rev the engine and look at the engine belt it spins faster and when i rev it faster the belt spins faster. Where is vwhobo? I bet he can answer this.

posted by  CarEXPERT

Ughh, at the flywheel! NO. The flywheel does'nt spin as fast as the crankshaft thats the point of its existance!

Dammit CarEXPERT. Its measured at the crankshaft. The belts spins faster because the crankshaft spins the belt. Wich in turn spins the gears that spin the cam that open and close the valves.

posted by  DSMer

OHH yea that makes sense. I GOT IT! :thumbs: thanks DSMer

posted by  CarEXPERT

carEXPERT are you on carfourms 24/7?

posted by  GreekWarrior

He averages over 50 posts a day, what do you think?

posted by  Godlaus

:confused:

posted by  Wally

YEs *yawn* :sleep:
I type in my sleep

posted by  CarEXPERT

And yet you don't learn anything. :mrgreen:

posted by  GreekWarrior

I would have thought that the diameter of the intake on the engine side of the air filter would be the determining factor. Whilst taking the air filter off is a very foolhardy exercise and not recommended, it would be the ideal for maximum volume of air that can be passed to the engine. Adding a filter of any type will add some form of restriction irrespective of its surface area and could never allow more air flow than having no air filter.

I run K&N panel filters in my skylines and the performance gain over the Nissan paper filter is marginal for normal running. It is only under full boost (maximum air flow) that there is a difference, but it is not a significant difference.

I have also tried a 'cone' filter (or pod filter as we call them) without a cold air box and the performance is worse than the factory filter. Any performance gains are perception only, as you hear more induction noise, turbo spooling and BOV operation which gives the impression of more performance. It is actually sucking hotter air from the engine bay than the cooler air from the standard air box/panel resulting in a minimal drop in performance.

I have also heard that the additional volume in the standard airbox is used to counteract the pulsing nature of an engines air intake, as the engine does not draw air in in a linear fashion. Not sure if this is valid or not.

posted by  Who?

Drag racers dont use air filters on their turbos. Which is why without a filter it will be suckin in more air.

posted by  CarEXPERT

Pod filters are one of the biggest hoaxes in the auto industry IMHO. They are up there with spiral/vortex diffusers and useless oil additives. I carried out some tests on air filters and realised a whopping 100 pascal pressure difference between paper filters and the ubeaut pod. To put that in perspective your engine vacuum is about 28"hg or 94595 pascals and flow varies by the square of the pressure, so 100 pascals is next to nothing.

What does make a difference is the intake pipe location, length and rolled mouth.

posted by  Wally

Again and intake serves a very simple purpose. There are many things that promise all sorts of extreme horsepower gains and serious fuel mileage. There are very few things you can do to significanly gain anything worth being bragged about with an intake... Not that all intakes are the same, but generally any well designed setup well give you just as good as power as another...

posted by  DSMer

Then is it worth it to put a intake system because they are like 200 dollers and not that much power increase.

posted by  CarEXPERT

Absolutley. Stock intakes are crap.

posted by  DSMer

For cold air intakes, the filter is at the bottom of the car right? There are some cars that I see that their intake piping goes to the side fender and to the bottom. Do you have to make a hole if you want to put a CAI in. How would you put a CAI in a honda?DSMer?

posted by  CarEXPERT

I have to add a couple things in here.

1) RPM means Revolutions Per Minute. That is revolutions of the crankshaft for every minute of operatiing, and it's expressed as a rate, just like ropad speed is a rate if you do 60 mph for 3 minutes, you haven't gone an hour, but you've been moving at a rate that would equal 60 miles if you drove at that speed FOR an hour). It may seem basic, but it seems to be at the root of carExpert's misunderstanding.

Measuring rpms can happen at ANY POINT on the rotating part of the engine, whether that's the crank, or the cams. On cars with distributors, the measurement is taken from there (the tach calculates rpm from the number of times the coil fires). On some older cars, there's an actual cable that runs to the distributor that is gear driven, just like your speedometer is (which is usually taken from eeh output of the transmission, though sometimes is taken from a wheel hub).

On cars without distributors, the RPMs are read using the same sensor/trigger that fires the ignition, and is then calculated the same way. How does it know? In a 4 stroke piston engine, the spark plug ignites once every two revolutions. If the spark plug for once cylinder is igniting ata rate of 1500 times per minute, then teh engine itself is turning at a rate of 3000 revolutions per minute (two revolutions of the crank for every spark event). A 2 stroke of course fires once per revolution. So does a rotary. reading off the coil gives a total number of ignition pulses per revolution for the entire engine (thus a 4 cyl engine fires 4 times for every two revolutions: one complete cycle of each cylinder every two revolutions. So if the coil has fired at a rate that equals 4000 times per minute, the engine is running at a rate of 2000 revolutions per minute (an 8 cylinder engine would fire 8000 events per minute at 2000 rpms).

That's all there is to measuring revolutions per minute.

..............................................

2) there is a difference between "intakes" in the modern aftermarket sense, and "intake manifold" as has been called the "intake" for decades. The "intake manifold" is the part that goes AFTER the air is metered before the intake port (and on most cars, that is cars that dont' have direct port injection, the fuel is added before it gets into the intake manifold, too). Length and diameters of THIS part is critical, as it affects air flow into the ports, and the mixture of the air and fuel charge. The air intake BEFORE the air metering has little or no effect on anything other than adding a restriction to how much air can flow. Length, diameter, etc, is of little to no importance BEFORE the air is metered, except that you want to have as little obstruction as possible. In that regard, ALL CAIs are just glorified aircleaner assemblies. As long as it isn't plugged up, it can be as close or as far from the air metering unit as you want, with no effect OTHER than that of air temps (and DSM's explanation of why air temps are important is spot on. Colder air is denser air. Denser air makes more power.)

posted by  ChrisV

Thanks that ChrisV finally cleared that RPM thing up. Good one :clap:

posted by  DSMer

I tend to disagree with you on this point, but the rest of your content covers the basics.

posted by  Wally

Why? Just as examples, the airbox on my Jaguar is right off teh metering location, but the same exact fuel injection on my Fiat and my old BMW 6 series (all use the same Bosch injection) have the airboxes before the metering block in different locations in the engine compartment according to space.

BEFORE the metering block, it's no different than putting an air cleaner on a carb. The distance from the carb to the air cleaner element makes virtually no difference. Only how much air can flow. It won't change the powerband, where in the rpm range the power is made or how much power is made for any reason other than how restricted and warm the air.

posted by  ChrisV

Phsyically speaking ChrisV has every bit of the correct point. If your nostrils were any bigger or your mouth could open any wider would you be able to breathe any better? Absolutley not. However if the passage ways in your lungs or throat were larger in diameter you would be able to breath alot better.

The space of the intake valves, head, and throttle body are what make the big difference. So long as there is no restriction, you won't be able to take in anymore air than is only able to be handled within the restrictions of your internal workings AFTER the air is measured.

posted by  DSMer

Well I hear what you are saying, but:

if the intake prior to the MAF is sized smaller the authority will be that section if it is less than the capacity index value of the TB and anything else downstream;

the VE is dependent on the intake pipe configuration pre TB;

the ECU relies on accurate MAF measurement, which will give false readings if the flow is turbulant;

the shape of the intake mouth is also important to get good flow characteristics;

So the intake upstream of the MAF/TB is important. If you want to make analogy about the human respiratory system, then by all means inhale as fast as you can and measure the amount exhaled via a ballon as opposed to a rapid controlled breath.

posted by  Wally

Exactly how many aftermarket intakes have you seen that look "that much" different?(For an individual car ofcourse. I know that a Camaro 350 Intake looks totally different from a Honda intake) They are all just about the same diameter and very few of them differ in neck size. The point is you're not going to notice the greatest difference between any aftermarket intake. I've read the articles, done the studies. Averaging between 8-16HP is all that differs. Wich is absoultley nothing in the world of performance.

You're making to much of a deal out of something that won't matter anymore than the kind of winshield solvent you put in your car. Creating larger workings after the air is measured is where your power gains are coming from. Opening up the intakes manifold and porting the heads is where the real air flow power comes from. Not the intake, thus proving that the more important part of the airflow is after the air is measured. Not saying chosing a decently crafted intake won't help. Just saying that its not going to turn your 14 second racer into a 13.

posted by  DSMer

I see how you can simply dismiss various items of performance enhancement as inconsequential. You being a self professed racer with an extraordinary 1/4" mile time should know that millions are spent on wringing out the last 1/4HP to get the edge over a competitor.

So Joe Public goes and buys his poorly engineered american pushrod V8 and proceeds to modify it with all the usual stuff, including stroker crank, $2k alloy heads with 250cc tunnels, 60cc chambers, wedge heads, 295° cams, 0.6" lift, etc. Eventually after spending huge sums replicating what every other flannel shirted man in the world has done he actually gets it near to the performance of a standard toyota power plant, even with a 4bbl carby circa 1939. Then what?

I'll tell you what, with the toyota V8 you whack a turbo pack on it, run aviation fuel, slap a quality ECU on it, wind up the boost to 30 psi and demolish the competition. But Joe with the small block knows the internals won't handle decent boost he goes looking for a big block or just bites the bullet and buys a jap 4 pot and wind up the boost.

posted by  Wally

Millions are spent on the last few horsepower? Haha, hat the hell are you talking about. Sure Mr. Toyota V8 :screwy: .

posted by  DSMer

Obviously something beyond your comprehension. :wink2:

posted by  Wally

Yeah because we all know the comparison of an American V8 to a Japanees V8 has all the relavancy to do with intakes. As a matter of fact I recall my first lesson about engine air induction to have something about Toyota V8's and American V8's. Not to mention pushrods and strokered internals. Because those all have everything importnat to do with getting air inside an engine.

Either you have a vaild point on a completly different subject or you're just a dumbass.

Me, I vote for dumbass.

posted by  DSMer

I vote for dumbass too.

posted by  CarEXPERT

What class would that be..woodworking for beginners? So far you have explained how a wastegate closes to reduce boost, how a flywheel not only reduces power, but spins at half the speed of a crank, how you have an 8.76 Eclipse and a raft of other inane advices.

There is a lot more to a well engineered engine than just making it breath better. I already informed you I was was dumb (interpret stupid). It's just that on a scale I am obviously brighter than some others, not many mind you, just one or two in this thread.

BTW as you undoubtedly a gifted person would you mind explaining your credentials? I seem to recall you maintained you are an accredited engineer and a track legend? I think I need to review the standards of the university you attended and have a chat with the dean of engineering. I make no bones about my capabilities = I don't have any = I'm Australian, but at least I'm not a pimply xenophobic adolescent who thinks his fantasy world is therefore must be.

posted by  Wally

i think the mistake most people make here are correlating the numbers to the pictures below the numbers.

actually, if you pushed it off a cliff, im sure it'd go pretty quick, but then on second thoughts, it'd only clock a 9.8 second pass ;)

posted by  joshf2

So far you have explained how a wastegate closes to reduce boost
Nope, did'nt say to reduce boost. Lets not lie on me to make you look good.
how a flywheel not only reduces power, but spins at half the speed of a crank,
Again, I never said "half the speed". Stop lying on me in attempts to make yourself look better.
how you have an 8.76 Eclipse and a raft of other inane advices.
Laslty, I never said that was mine. Again you can't seem to stop creating falisys about things I have said.

I seem to recall you maintained you are an accredited engineer and a track legend?
Nope, absolutley wrong again. Never said that, never lead anyone to beleive it.

Maybe you should get your facts straight and try again.
In the words of the Hobo, THINK, TYPE, SUBMIT.

posted by  DSMer

No the car in the picture does exaclty as the text that preceeds it. What kind of dumbass would post the stats of a car, next to a completly different car. Now that would'nt be you now would it? I surley hope not, but I'll keep my eyes open.

posted by  DSMer

As a bystander who has stood quietly by during this conversation, I think it's time to ask a question. Can Wally or joshf2 link me to where DSMer made those statements/claims? I challenge you to do so as I can't seem to find them. If they exist I'll be happy to condem him as well. If on the other hand they don't exist, I think he deserves a very public apology from both of you.

The clock is ticking and your credibility is on the line.

posted by  vwhobo

Let me remind you that you did indeed try to take me to task some time ago with you little gang of thugs and did indeed state you were an engineer, which I disagreed with at the time because of the stupidity of some content and you rabbidly debated;

And let me also remind you of these gems:





You can go back through your own threads, if you haven't already had one of your mod buddies alter them to see the rest.

Insofar as the eclipse, I must apologise that I too thought you were the person who drove it and by inference had a clue about cars, but that was when I was a two post newbie. :laughing:

posted by  Wally

for starters, cars running under 9 seconds require roll cages and parachutes, yet i fail to see either. or do you expect me to believe that the car will stop from 165+ mph on standard brakes?

and a sub 9 second pass on street tyres? please.......

posted by  joshf2

Cars running sub 9 second passes are required to have cages and chutes to be NHRA or IHRA certified. Unless you want me to believe a car CAN'T go that fast without a cage or chute. And yes, that car could stop before the shutdown area from 165+ mph with standard brakes. Finally, if you don't think there are cars (plenty of them too) running in the nines on street tires you really don't have a clue.

posted by  vwhobo

too much "the fast and the furious" for you i think :wink2:

lemme guess, you recorded sub 9's on the street? but of course, because you had street tyres

:mrgreen:

posted by  joshf2

This is what I said:
"NO. The flywheel does'nt spin as fast as the crankshaft thats the point of its existance!"

This is what he thinks I said:
"a flywheel not only reduces power, but spins at half the speed of a crank"

This is what I said:
"A wastegate simply diverts exhaust gas away from the turbines"

This is what he thinks I said:
"a wastegate closes to reduce boost"

This, was not even said by myself.


Hmm.. I don't know about you Hobo, but it seems somone is spreading false information. I don't quite think its me...

posted by  DSMer

Gee I can't even get my cut 'n paste correct it seems:



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

The new record is 8.71 @ 166.25mph. To many idiot remarks for you I know. Not only is that car street legal, it pulls 8's on street tires(not slicks). The car does'nt have factory brakes, who ever said it did. Maybe thats one of those things concieved in that thick skull of yours.

Drag Talon (http://www.shepracing.com/sr_dragtalon.html)

There you will find all the relevant information on how a car like that is capable of doing such things.

posted by  DSMer

No good trying to rope in support. VWHobo knows exactly where I'm coming from. He I suggest, like me has age and experience on his side.

Fight the good fight by yourself for once.

posted by  Wally

For all of those who are neglected to what a wastegat actually does. A wastegate is a valve that controls the exhaust flow to the turbo. If the wastegate is closed, all of the exhaust gas goes to the turbo. If the wastegate valve is opened, exhaust gas coming from the motor bypasses the turbo, therefore the turbo doesn't spin as much. The wastegate regulates the amount of boost being created by opening its valve and bypassing exhaust flow.

The fact that I said closed instead of open is negligable. The person got the point of what it does. A very simple confusion on my behalf and for that I appologize.

posted by  DSMer

good god

you had a 50/50 chance of getting it right, you got it wrong, and then call it negligable??

FFS

posted by  joshf2

No asscheese, but I do drive a high 10 car most every day. By the way, how about addressing the cage and chute issue? Or are you telling me you can't make a car go sub 9 without them, certified or not?

Almost forgot. Fast and Furious is for people like you who THINK they know something about cars. I couldn't watch more than the first ten minutes of the movie myself.

posted by  vwhobo

:banghead:

i never said that they required those two items to make it go that fast, just that they require them when they go that fast

learn to read and interpret

posted by  joshf2

I think his point went over your head. If your first reasoning for why the car can't be a 9 second racer was "cars running under 9 seconds require roll cages and parachutes",then explain to us why it needs a rollcage and a chute to be able to go that fast? Legal or not. As it seems that you can't, possibly because you're just another febile needledick, then whats the purpose for you even stating that piece of reasoning in the first place?

Possibly because you're a complete idiot, or you suffer from a sever case of mental retardation. Either of them make sense.

posted by  DSMer

Just for posterity, even though 50/50 chance of getting it right is negligable:



:mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

If by all this time you have'nt realize that an engines flywheel does'nt spin at the same speed of the crankshaft you're quite pathetic.

posted by  DSMer

OK I give up explain to me how a flywheel bolted onto a crankshaft is not spinning at the same rate as the crankshaft?

posted by  Wally

BTW Doesn't has an apostrophe between the n and the t. :mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

Unless I'm missing something, the flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft, ergo it has the same angular velocity (rotational speed) as the crankshaft.

posted by  Who?

Give him time to google a few sites. This one is gonna be a doozy for us "dumbass, needledicked, ..." australasians. :laughing:

Hows the weather there? Nice result by the Kiwis against Warnie's eleven.

posted by  Wally

Been a nice weekend. Its late arvo here, still sunny and a light wind. Yeah, didn't see the cricket.

posted by  Who?

WOAH, WOAH, WOAH, WOAH!!!!! Don't start speaking Chinese on us.

And who said that all australians are
?

posted by  Godlaus

:mrgreen:

Sorry, I guess I forgot how our lingo can be pretty confusing.

Arvo = afternoon
Warney is a famous cricketer who gets into strife with women. He's temporarily captaining a world team set up for Tsunami relief chairity matches.
Cricket is a game played around the world mainly by ex empire countries and elite institutions elsewhere. Even the Afghanis play cricket, as does Pakistan, India, etc.

The Kiwis (New Zealanders) are our sworn enemies when it comes to ball sports, because we are very competitive nations. Collectively we are called Australasians.

posted by  Wally

damm damm damm

i cant believe i was out to miss this one!!!

thats a gem BSMer :mrgreen:

now before you go on and call me febile (im going to assume that you mean feeble :wink2: p.s. learn to spell, because im sure that will get you further in life than thinking a flywheel spins at a different rate to the crank) just check your facts and think really really really hard......but not too hard. dont want to hurt that febile :wink2: mind of yours.

posted by  joshf2

not to me it isnt, but im chinese :oops:

posted by  joshf2

Struth! Ever since Chappel did that sheila underarm job the crickets' been a sore point. Fair dinkum, that was as off as a bucket of prawns in the hot sun.

You'd think those septic tanks would understand the lingo by now after watching all those flicks of the Croc Hunter eh cobber! :mrgreen:

posted by  Who?

:clap:

posted by  joshf2

Fair suck of the sav mate don't come the raw prawn about the Chappels with me cobber.

posted by  Wally

DSmer I see you are in attendance. Any explanation about the flywheel yet? :mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

This could be interprited in 3 ways.

1. Either you have been enjoying the pleasures of hard drugs.
2. You are the stupid tool your making yourself out to be.
3. You infact made another of your famous slipups and actually meant camshaft.

As to the comment about opening or closing wastegates, well, i spose if you have never delt with them yourself and all your infomation comes from books and TV it could be an easy slipup..

As to the comments about cages and other requirements in fast drag cars, it's hard to say since i know nothing of the rules in your country. BUT, you seem to make a big point about it not mattering if it's legal to actually make a car that quick. If your infering that the car may not be legal to goto the strip and run it, where exactly did these times come from?

posted by  grog

*Yawn* You people bore me. I come back from a nice night at the strips only to see a bunch of needledicks awaiting my response like dogs begging for treats. Ahhh.. well let me get to it.

From my original statement that a flywheel does'nt spin as fast as the crankshaft and thats its reason for existance. Well you see kids, when an engine explodes through the power sroke, the crankshaft gets a violent spin and it is'nt exactly in sync with the intake and ignition of the next stroke. So what do you do to fix this problem? Well you stick a heavy piece of metal on the end of it that won't spin at the same velocity as the crankshaft. Sure they are connected and spin at the same speed when used as a complet rotating assembly in an engine but I was referring to them as an individual piece of equipement.

More simply put a crakshaft alone will spin alot faster than a flywheel spun at the same force. This being why I say, the flywheel does'nt spin as fast as the crankshaft. Maybe you "people" couldn't understand my wording and I appologize for not explaining myself in detail. I don't want you aussies getting confused and running arround with your kangaroo like tails between your legs.
Now if you excuse me, while it may be daylight on your side of the world my sun is down.

posted by  DSMer

So your claiming that somehow, when an engine "explodes through the power sroke" it's no longer connected to the crankshaft..

posted by  grog

Absolutley not.

posted by  DSMer

I defy anyone to explain what all that drivel was about. I think we have a new branch of kinematics. I'm ringing the papers. :smoke:

posted by  Wally

Possibly your confusing speed and kenetic energy?

posted by  grog

when are they ever used as individuals pieces of equipment?

posted by  joshf2

My understanding of how a crankshaft and flywheel work is that the crankshaft is a mechanism for transfering the energy from the combustion in the piston chambers via the crankshaft via the flywheel to the transmission. This energy is non-linear in its delivery, or as DSMer puts it "explodes through the power stroke". The flywheels purpose is to store part of this non-linear energy within the rotational mass of the flywheel. Whilst their angular velocity is the same (or rotational speed) their inertial energy is not. The flywheel acts like the mechanical equivalent of a capacitor and 'smooths' the energy delivery through to the transmission.

In electrical terms, it would be the equivalent of a capacitor following a bridge rectifier, i.e., the combustion force on the crankshaft would be like AC entering the bridge rectifier, whilst the output of the flywheel would be like the capacitor with a smoothed DC across its terminals. The averaged power is the same (angular velocity) whilst the voltages are different (inertial energy). This is assuming no losses in the system.

Perhaps DSMer is confusing angular velocity with inertial energy? (sorry guys, just noticed 'grog' asked the same question using different words.)

posted by  Who?

Just like you kiwis to dress mutton up as lamb. :wink2:

I very interested in the explosions through the power stroke. Perhaps someone can enlighten me what it means?

and

posted by  Wally

think about mrs palmer and her five daughters........

posted by  joshf2

That actually hurt to read.

No matter how you word it, it's wrong. The flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft and ALWAYS (yes ALWAYS) spins at exactly the same speed as the crankshaft.

What it's THERE for is to store energy, primarily so that when you engage the clutch the engine doesn't immediately stall from the inertia of the rest of the drivetrain trying to make a motionless car move. A heavier flywheel takes more to get it to spin, but also takes more to get it to stall. A light flywheel takes less energy to spin (thus it allows the engine to rev quicker) but it also takes less effort to make it STOP spinning (which is why it's so easy to stall and engine with a light flywheel when taking off from a stop).

The flywheel may KEEP the motion of the crank damped, but that's BECAUSE the crank and flywheel always spin at the same rate, so long as they are bolted together. If they were separate, the flywheel would never spin! So discussing the rates they spin as separate pieces of equipment is simply not an argument, nor is it in ANY way germain to a discussion of how a flywheel works.

posted by  ChrisV

*sigh*

I said



So now you're ARGUING with me by AGREEING with me. On the dyno, there is no differnce between intakes AHEAD of the air metering block unless those two conditions I mentioned apply. You gave the MATH for them, but it only agrees with me.

posted by  ChrisV

"sigh"

I wrote my response to DSMer as I interpretted it. I was not out to argue with you.

"sigh"

I merely responded to your post and one of your dedicated fans decided he was up to the task of answering for you

"sigh"

You know that the world is a big place and there are other guys out here who have racing experience, mechanical ability, engineering ability, and maybe a few more years on you, etc?

"sigh"

Laminar flow and turbulance are not necessarily associated with "for any reason other than how restricted and warm the air"...you agree? So that statament is wrong in that context and much over simplified?

"sigh"

Being as knowledgable as you are you would also agree in principle with what I have said..yes? Then why don't you direct your corrective action to the person who refuted these claims instead of assuming I'm a 17 year old with a talon with no smarts?

"sigh"

posted by  Wally

But it was in response to what I said, and in fact, you r post WAS trying to contradict me, even though what you were arguing was what i was trying to simplify for teh people that are on here.



So far the only one here that MIGHT have a few years more experience than I is Hobo. And notice how we don't argue about cars, eh? For the most part, on forums like this one, I have met maybe three people who have proven skills. If I want MORE knowledge than I, I go specifically to those locations where teh real experienced people go. And guess what? We don't argue THERE either. I sense a pattern here...

[uote]Laminar flow and turbulance are not necessarily associated with "for any reason other than how restricted and warm the air"...you agree? So that statament is wrong in that context and much over simplified?
[/quote]

Simplified, yes, due to the intended audience. But again, there is no dyno proof that there needs to be ANYTHING past the air metering block. Unlike a carb, there is no venturi there to need to draw air through evenly to pull fuel from the jets, and there is usually a couple inches for the air to straighten out before being metered. the fuel is added much later, so swirl, equalized cylinder flow, etc are not a factor. So again, other than restrictions and air temps, it really doesn't matter what is ahead of the metering block. Period. Laminar flow changes before the metering block simply aren't going to (and don't) show up on the dyno like lack of breathing totally and density of the air.

You can be as fancy with your terminology all you want, as the engine doesn't care.



I already did. But YOU were the one arguing.

posted by  ChrisV

If everything is being oversimplified for the unwashed masses shouldn't there be a header that reads "Do Not Come Here if You Expect Answer" or " The Sister Site to Brawl Hall"

I don't doubt you are credentialed and that you don't argue with VWHobo and good for both of you, but just to humour us mere mortals would you mind laying out your experience and knowledge base so that us less knowledgeable members can ratify that indeed



and not some self induglent comment?

Afterall you can't expect us to take your word for it can you?


I don't use fancy words, I tend to use correct engineering terms. (did I write that ambiguoulsy enough to protect my arse by using the "tend" word?)

Heh you don't like what I write and probably see me as a rival silverback, but guess what I am not here to debate with you, I disagreed with you on a point(s). I will however push back when some idiot starts arguing simple facts and uses offensive language like DSMer has. And as many of you very important people have pointed out in numerous posts, if you don't like what is posted you don't have to read it, let alone respond n'est pas?

You can't surely disagree after reading this thread that indeed the over simplification and unchecked errors by the admins/oracles have resulted in at least one member having a fundamental problems with engine basics and not one of the heirachy thought fit to tell him he was making an ass of himself until seven pages in?

posted by  Wally

Seeing as it seems to be the current trend:



I guess I should add my bone fide statement

" I am a needledicked dumbass who does not have a clue about cars and any facsimile thereof "

Your turn Carexpert

posted by  Wally

I thought I had a little bit of knowledge about engines. I am starting to doubt that now.I had no clue that a flywheel could store energy, like a capacitor.Maybe he was talking about a selenium rectifier,how could that be? What are you storing and how and what are you converting?

posted by  lectroid

My original statement said the mechanical equivalent of a capacitor. It also referred to in electrical terms. I am not stating that the flywheel stores electricity, however a flywheel can be used in electrical generation systems to dampen the effect of varying loads.

See http://www.powerpulse.net/powerpulse/archive/aa_031901c1.stm




Please feel free to let ChrisV know that he is wrong as well.

posted by  Who?

[QUOTE=DSMer]There is a statement that I have making, wich is "All intakes are the same". Thats actually a open ended statement. Well, technically yes they are all the same. An AEM intake won't give you any more power than an APC intake would. The differences between them are so minute that the most expensive dyno would have a hard time figuring out the difference. Regardless to what material the intake is made out of, there would be little or no siginificant difference between the two. However, ther are two things that would diferentiate one product from another. That is intake air temperature and air-filter flow rate.

There are also two different types of intakes. You have your short ram or cold air, more commonly reffered to as CAI(Cold Air Induction). Short ram intakes consist of a shorter intake tube, where the air filter component rest near or within close proximity to your engine bay. Now some of you may say, "Why in the hell would you want your intake to suck in dirty, hot air?" Well you don't, and that is why the short ram is the less desireable of the two. The cold air intake is slightly different, as the tube is longer and places the filter component outside or further away from your engine bay. However, this too has is downsides, but I'll get to that later.

So now we have discussed the intakes. You may be wondering, "What about the filter". Well hold your horses. Most stock filters in your car are made of a lighter, looser form of paper than you would find in your printer. It usually consists of many layers of what appears to be a thick tissue paper. The only problem with paper is that, while it allows air to flow freely, it still holds back some of those precious oxygen molecules. However, the paper is cheap and does filter air very thourougly. The next level up are K&N's cotton filters that are soaked in a oil. The K&N's aftermarket filters work better than stock simply because they allow more air-flow and have more surface space. Now you may have squinted when I told you the cotton was soaked in oil. Well its not the oil you are thinking of, its a sticky type of oil that catch smaller particles in the air as it is filtered through the cotton intake cone. The K&N filter is quite efficient and even works better as it gets a moderatley dirtier. However, the cotton cone does allow some tiny particles into the engine. :(

The intake charge temperature, or temperature of the air entering your intake, has a great effect on power output. Engines make good power when the temperature from the intake greatly differs from the temperature of the exhaust. So if your exhust is coming out at 300 degrees farenheit, and you run your car at the drag strip in the fall and summer... the cooler fall air should give you more horsepower creating a better run. There are many ways of allowing cooler air to reach your intake, taking out head lights, creating cold air boxes, and modifying hoodscoops to directly give ambient air to your engine. Well before you get crazy with it, you should know that one major drawback with CAI systems is that you can suck up water into your engine. This can result in hydrolock.

Hydrolock is where a siffucient ammount of water enters your engine to the point it locks up and stops. If you get a few good squirts of water into your engine through your intake, the cylinder(s) could become dead cylinders and cause your engine to shut down. Theres a good chance you will not suck in enough to water to destroy the engine completley, but in the event that alot of waters enters your engine. The piston(s) would hit a wall of water within your cylinder, not be able to compress the water, the connecting rod would either bend or break and the next revolution of the crankshaft would send the broken rode through your engine block. Permanently damaging a once perfectly good engine.

Now AEM has done os the favor of creating a by-pass valve on intakes. You place this item between your intake tube(yeah you'll have to cut teh intake in half) . It consist of rubber like gasket with foam under it, and when water is sucked in the intake(this creates a pressure drop) the valve on this product opens up and allows air to flow in from the surrounding area while blocking the water from within the intake. After the water flows out of the intake, the pressure returns to normal, and the by-pass valve closes. Cool Eh? Well however cool it may be, the by-pass valve creates turbulence within the intakes airflow thus making a CAI(with a by-pass valve) less or equivalent in power to a short ram intake.

As I mentioned above, people have specially modified hoods that allow air to reach the intake, cut holes in bumpers, or remove headlights. This is what is known as a "Ram-Air" setup. Used for decades by domestic cars, this element on intake has been brought to the imports. The Ram-Air setup places the intake into air flow path of the vehicle creating more air in the filter and cooler intake air.

I have seen many people ask "Why does it matter what "kind" of air my intake breathes in?". Well lets go back to freshman chemistry and phsyics. You should know by now that colder air is far more dense than hot air. The air does'nt matter but the molecules of oxygen within make a difference. When any element is cold, the ammount of molecule movement is reduced and the molecules stay closer and packed together. If the element is hotter, the molecules move arround violently. Now if we have a group of soldiers marching single file line, side by side. They represent oxygen. We have a group of people running in a cluster that also represent oxygen. Now if I had an extremly large vaccum, I would be able to suck up more of the marching soldiers than the running people as they are more dense. Same with air intakes. The colder the air is, the more oxygen occupying a given volume is present. Quite simple huh?

IMPORTANT NOTE: All of your rice ass wantabes. Taking the cone, or filter off your intake will not allow you to take in more air. If you believe this, then you should re-vist your local chemist and phsyics teacher to have them explain to you the relevancy of surface volume. The larger the surface area, the more air your intake will be able to take in at one given intake stroke. So in theory a larger cone, to the point its not so large that you are not able to occupy all of the surface area, will give you better horsepower numbers.

There are probably more sciences that involve intakes than I can explain. This is just a basic guide to get you informed. I'm on my quest to battle ignroance. I hope this helps

where can i find a free flowing gto mr intake manifold????????

posted by  P_MONEY

The flywheel stores rotational potential energy.

When you spin a heavy flywheel, the energy that you put into it by the act of spinning it is then stored and released slowly (it's what keeps it spinning). Whether that energy is put in by an electric motor or a gasoline engine, it's the same thing.

posted by  ChrisV

does the flywheel spin the same speed as the crank or the same?

posted by  CarEXPERT

I already answered that. They spin at the same speed unless something's broken. They are bolted together. Every revolution of the crank is one revolution of the flywheel. If your crank is turning 2000 rpm, your flywheel turns at 2000 rpm.

http://www.hut.fi/~tmkorhon/vw/okrasa_iso.jpg

posted by  ChrisV

Thanks ChrisV..

posted by  CarEXPERT

Now all you have to figure out is why an automatic doesn't have a flywheel, but the engine still runs smooth.

posted by  Wally

WHAT? automatics dont have a flywheel?? Are you sure? autos have torque convator for clutch right?

posted by  CarEXPERT

torque converter bolted to flywheel but a more proper term to what automatics have is a flexplate manuals use flywheels

posted by  carlos

So on an auto, the crank is connected to this flexplate and then is connected to the torque converter? What does the flexplate look like?

posted by  CarEXPERT

Like the one you will find if you use Google.com.

A flywheel relies on rim mass a flexplate does not really have a rim.

posted by  Wally

As Carlos said, the torque converter carrries the mass that does essentially the same job. Plus, its viscous coupling allows the engine to keep from stalling when a load is put on it (much like the flywhel mass helps keep the engine from stalling as the clutch is engaged).

the flexplate holds teh starter ring gear like the outside edge of a flywheel, and gives the mounting points for the torque converter. It's designed the way it is so that it allows being attached to the same engine in the same car as a manual trans and flywheel does.

posted by  ChrisV

Your Message