Everyting You Need To Know About N20

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Time for an Update!

First of, NOS originally stood for New Old Stock (ask if you're curious). Nowadays, it's brand. So don't brag about how you got NOS in your car, if the manufacturer is really ZEX.

http://www.sportcompactwarehouse.com/2/edelbrock-nitrous-kit.jpg
(Thanks "Fast and the Furious"). N20 (two parts nitrogen, one part oxygen) is an oxidizer, not some form of a fuel.
http://www.caa.ubc.ca/lab/3/n2o.gif
Most people believe it's a form of fuel thanks again to the fast and the furious, because of the engine renderings showing nitrous hitting the combustion chambers and creating the blue explosion. That's actually gas reacting with oxygen to expand, pushing the piston south. Think of nitrous as a thing that doubles your displacement, which means more horsepower.
You ever wondered why Nitrous is packed in giant steel bottles? That’s because they need to be held at over 700 psi to keep it at room temperature (Or the whereabouts). *Note = If you have a Nitrous and live in Arizona, with temps over 95 degrees, you may have complications and need a stronger tanks, as the pressure will jump to 1000 psi if you live in a hot climate. So, when the Nitrous goes from 700 psi to 14.7 psi (Room pressure), the temperature of it will drop through the floor. Because nitrous boils at negative 120, it’ll cool down everything around it pretty quick. So, colder air in the combustion chamber, more compact air, more gas/fuel ratio, and more horsepower. Plain and simple, but not really. So why do most people think nitrous is dangerous to an engine? Well, it is if you’re a dumba$$ and just add in the nitrous injectors and that’s it. If you just throw on the N20, you’re engine will run lean. Standard fuel management systems for Nitrous will keep your engine running rich, which prevents N20 from blowing up your engine. The actual physics of it is that nitrous needs some fuel to react with, or else the temperatures go to hell (get really hot). The rest of the oxygen that didn’t burn with fuel will oxidize anything it can get to. Which are your combustion chamber walls. Unless you want to replace the top end of your engine every time you use Nitrous, you should get bigger fuel injectors and a fuel management to make your engine run rich. So, what else is there to say? Of course, running nitrous always comes with risks, as you’re preparing your car for speeds it wasn’t prepared for, so I you really want a nitrous engine that will last, go for the whole 9 yards. Buy strong connecting rods, new pistons (If you’re gonna get nitrous, you can probably afford a turbo also), new intake (see DSM’ post about intakes), new exhaust, new torque resistant crankshaft, etc. etc. Visit some of these sites for info on N20 and what to buy. Always go for the complete kit if you’re a beginner with a lot of money.

www.zex.xom
www.overboost.com
www.nosnitrous.com
www.nitrousexpress.com

So what about the different types of nitrous? There's wet, dry and direct port systems.

Direct port is where the gas and Nitrous lines go directly to the cylinder, instead of at the manifold intake. This way, you don't get an uneven distribution of N20, and you don't have to worry about upgrading your fuel injectors to get your car to run rich.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.akers/images/188%20NOS%20nitrous%20insta ll%20side.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~rwaitas/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/d irectport3.jpg
A Wet system is where you have a gas and N20 line go together to the manifold intake, so don't have to upgrade your fuel injectors, but, you have the uneven distribution of Nitrous to worry about.
http://www.magnumforceracing.com/images/product_images/nitrous/dryvswet2.gi f

A dry system is where you just have the Nitrous solenoid at the head of the intake manifold, and it sprays the now gas Nitrous into the pistons. Still have to worry about upgrading your fuel injectors and uneven distribution.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/sport_compact/images/nitrous/dry_nitrou s_systems_diag.gif

Here's another good reference site;
http://www.magnumforceracing.com/store4/nitrous/wetvsdry.htm

posted by  Godlaus

This helped some, thanks bro. I'll read the intake info to see if theres something else I can learn.

posted by  Tyko

When nitrous is hotter than 95degrees F then the nitrous will turn into a gas and the pressure will go up. And the nitrous to fuel ratio should be 5.5:1 which is on the rich side but its always good to run rich when using nitrous fore safty of the engine.

Godaus in your posts you didnt explain how nitrous is pumped from the bottle to the soldnoids can you please explain. ANd also there are diffrent ways to how its activated but I dont know all of them. DOes injecting nitrous into your intercoolers work? cuz the the nitrous would be cold so would it work?

posted by  CarEXPERT

Jeez Gaulaus! You still in Texas? Doing a lot of scavenging...

posted by  StiMan

One thing you will learn from life, is that everything is balanced, and things that aren't balanced will try to balance out themselves. It's roughly 700 psi in the Nitorus tanks. It's 14.7 psi at the end of the solenoid. Pressures try to equilibriate, so the nitrous flows from high pressure to low pressure. When you press the little red button, you're opening up a flow gate that allows the high pressure nitrous to flow to the low pressure area. Injecting nitrous into your intercooler? Why? It would work better and faster in the combustion chambers.


I'm bored......

posted by  Godlaus

my thoughts on nitrous
http://www.bettendorflibrary.com/teen/img/thumbs_down.gif

posted by  mazda6man

:2cents:
i believe the typical pressures of a nitrous bottle are higher than 700 psi, optimal pressures are about 1100 psi, and the tanks are required by law to be able to hold 1800psi. The tanks are also stamped with a date of certification and must be within 5 years for any place to refill it(at least legally)
the whole nitrous, intercooler combo is done to keep temperatures low, which in turn allows more spark advance(is also a denser charge) without detonation at high boost levels. This was done by the late John Lingenfelter.(created a 1200 hp 4cyl tubocharged Ecotec engine) :2cents:

posted by  carlos

How can you be bored in Dallas? Go to Harry Hines... lots of strip clubs. Lol... :thumbs:

posted by  StiMan

If the temperature of the nitrous is above 97 degrees fahrenheit, then the PSI jumps to about 1000. That's why some makers hold the tank at 700, others at 1000. it all depends on the environment, and whether or not you want to buy cheaper goods that will serve you well in your area. Dunno about the law thing....only lawful thing about Nitrous I know is that it's legal to install (in the US), but illegal to use. (too much emissions).

Sounds liek you've done your research also, thanks for contributing.



yeah, but I still look like I'm 17. Sucks.........And, I had to renovate my grandparent's house while I was down there. Pretty boring for me, but probably a fun place to be for you.

posted by  Godlaus

Its ok.. :hi:

posted by  StiMan

This thread is all good but your proabably forgot one of the most common nitrous setups used for brute power in professional applications. Thats direct port injection. Where the nitrous injectors are ran directly into the intake or even into the cylinders.... I wanna see a picture of that...

posted by  DSMer

just check out sheppard's DSM, it ran the record 8 second on Nitrous.

Which brings me to my next point.

People often complain about nitrous as cheating. I remember a 1st gen mazda rx-7 at 8 psi racing a 350z, and the rx7 destroyed the Z. the 350 pulled up next to the mazda after the race, and yelled at him; "you cheated! you used NOS!". Since when is nitrous cheating? Everyoen can get it, it's no more cheating than using a turbo. What gives? Why is it considered cheating?

Also, I watched the fast and the furious yesterday (it's painful to watch now that I know a fair amount about cars), and in it, when the jetta races the s2000, the jetta uses N20 and the azn behind the jetta says, "too soon". There is no "too soon" to use nitrous, using it from the launch is the best idea.

God, let's get a list going of everything wrong in the fast and the furious series. Anybody want to contribute?

posted by  Godlaus

Thats great and all but how about you add a direct port nitrous system to your "Everything you need to know about N2O". Also it is very common for V8 guys to use direct port nitrous systems simply because they can run the lines under the intake manifold and use a hidden nitrous system. I've even seen a hidden direct port nitrous system on a 4-cylinder Talon TSi. The owner had a custom made manifold that was extended with artificial walls that did'nt actually intake air but rather hid the nitrous lines, foggers, injectors etc.. But to my knowledge a hidden 4cylinder setup is very hard to pull off...

It was a rather bulky intake, but to the untrained eye it appeared to be a cutsom chrome intake manifold. As far as hiding the bottle(s), thats another story.

posted by  DSMer

Done



Why would you want to hide the nitrous lines though?

posted by  Godlaus

Maybe you should slow down and repeat that question in your head veryslowly. If you stil can't conclude why anyone would want to hide a nitrous setup then I don't think you should have written this article...

posted by  DSMer

The only reason i can think of is that you can use it woithout having others know. Which is pointless, because it's winning by cheating, there's no honor(need better word here) in the win, it's an empty win, because you did cheat.

posted by  Godlaus

I guess staging nitrous is pointless then.

posted by  DodgeRida67

Nothing in heads up racing is cheating. I don't care what way you put it. Your opposition has just as much chance to buy a nitrous setup as you do. Element of surprise is more than a trick, its a learned skilll....

posted by  DSMer

Yeah, i agree with DSMer since other racers have the opportunity to buy and install N2O on THEIR cars, then it is not cheating.

posted by  jdubya

Ew nitrous is icky. HAHA. But really..I dont like it. Not good for the motor. It reminds me of drag racing a turbo charged automatic with NOS. Oh and i call it NOS. Not refering to the name brand. But really if you think about it. no matter who makes it. It is a Nitrous Oxide System. So nos is easier to say and it fits it no matter who the manufacturer is. But yeah. Ill never run it on any of my cars. The only thing cool about nos is the nitrous purge valve :mrgreen:

posted by  DTMBaller

The purge valve is gay and for show cars. No wonder you dont like nitrous for engine use cause your a person who is into show than go.

posted by  CarEXPERT

not exactly. i dont like it because it fry's motors. it burns extremely hot which kills things. Im not into cheap power at the expense of my motor. and i was joking about the purge valve. i will never have nitrous on any car i own.

posted by  DTMBaller

It only frys motors if you dont know how to use it. Remember you always have to add extra fuel and keep the nitrous/fuel ratio at 5.5:1 to keep it running cool. If you dont, the extra oxygen will not get burned and will oxidize the cylinder walls. Running nitrous also has too much ignition advance cause the nitrous/fuel/air will burn much quicker than jus fuel/air wich is why nitrous can be dangerous. But like I said it can be safe if you know what your doing

posted by  CarEXPERT

no matter what nitrous is going to burn hotter then fuel without it. thus it will ruin the motor faster. yes im sure you could do nitrous and make it less harmfull. but to me its a cheap way to go fast. id much rather go with a custom turbo or a na high compression motor like i have :mrgreen:

posted by  DTMBaller

Nitrous oxide by itself does not burn at all dumbass. N2O is oxygen rich which supports combustion... Assuming you have enough fuel. Get a clue and stop spreading your bullsh*t.

posted by  vwhobo

Bingo. Nitrous is classified as an oxidizer, not a fuel. I think this DTMBaller guy has watched the 'fast and the furious' series too many times. hell, he didn't even read the first part of my thread,




What's wrong with that? If anything, that's the goal in car tuning. everybody has the same opportunity to use it.


Looks like you've been doing some research outside of car-forums, good for you, carexpert :clap: .

posted by  Godlaus

Re read. where do i say nitrous is a fuel. quit puting words in my mouth dipshit. and i wouldnt stoop as low as to put unneccesary exessive harm on my motor just to win a little streight line race.

posted by  DTMBaller

You implied it. You don't know the first thing about racing.

posted by  DodgeRida67

i didnt imply shit. you manipulated what i said to fit your twisted arguement. and your right. i dont waste my time with streight line racing. its fun to watch the top fuel drags but thats about it. i do know an excelent top fuel hydro mechanic who knows more then this whole forum combined. and he gave me a long lecture about nitrous.

posted by  DTMBaller

Well if I'm included in the forum that is one very impressive mechanic. :smoke:

posted by  Wally

You said "No matter what nitrous is going to burn hotter". Nitrous does'nt burn its an oxidizer it promotes a richer burn. No ones putting in your mouth what was'nt allready there to begin with.

Saying you don't use nitrous because it destorys your motor is just as stupid as saying I won't use fuel because it destroys my motor. Gasoline contains elements that can leave carbon deposits on your cylinder walls if improperly mixed with air just as nitrous can leave oxidation residue on your cylinder walls if it is'nt mixed correctly as well...

So long as the nitrous system is used correctly and set up well it should'nt pose any long time problems on an engine. There are guys that run nitrous setups on their civics all day long with turbo's, I might add, that don't have any bad reactions to it. And we're talking about N/A motors that were'nt designed to house turbos...

**EDIT**
Ooh watch out there Wally, some might take that as boasting. Not saying I would or anything but you know how that is Mr. Wally :hi:

posted by  DSMer

That is backwards. Apparently the only thing you do imply is shit. Your post is a perfect example.

posted by  DodgeRida67

he is one very impressive mechanic. his job is to rebuild nitro motors between races. and he is damn good at it. very respected in the tfh community.

why dont you go ahead and finish the sentance DSMer. I said that it will burn hotter then fuel without it. i didnt say nitro alone burns. and it will be hotter without it thus burning the insides of the motor. no bueno.


i dont see what is so backwards about it.

posted by  DTMBaller

That's nice. Maybe you should learn from him.




Of course you did.



What is backwards about it is that you said you "didn't imply shit." Yes you did. It seems to be all you say is shit.

posted by  DodgeRida67

ok your post makes no sence.

posted by  DTMBaller

You're right, it didn't. It does however make sense.

posted by  DodgeRida67

Damn you're not comprehending the english language. I understand you're like 12 years old but that does'nt give you an excuse to not understand what your saying. Here I'll give you an english lesson..

"Nitrous is going to burn hotter then fuel [without] nitrous" That is what you you said replacing the pronoun "it" with nitrous.

"nitrous and fuel are going to burn hotter than fuel without nitrous" Thats what you're telling us you're tried to say. See the difference?

Nitrous will burn hotter.(NO). Nitrous AND fuel will burn hotter.(YES). Quite simple yeah :thumbs:

posted by  DSMer

well you obviously understand what i was saying so why dont you stfu and stop trying to turn a car forum into an english class. im not gonna waste my time going thru my posts trying to make them perfect for you. sry. after years of aim i have developed a bad typing habit. once its typed it is entered. learn to live with it.

posted by  DTMBaller

Fair enough. Just know it makes you look like a complete dumbass. Well, even if you typed correctly you'd probably still look like a dumbass.

posted by  DodgeRida67

yeah it takes one to know one. and from what ive seen so far on this forum, there are a whole lot of em.

posted by  DTMBaller

Please, dispense with the formalities.. just call me Sir :wink2:

Actually I have worked out a formula for the total knowledge of this forum:

E = MC²

Where:

E = everyone
M = member plebs
C = CarExpert

posted by  Wally

I like how everybody believes N2O won't grenade your engine here. It won't eat the engine unless you run it lean, sure, but what about the extra power? So you're basically telling everybody that running 300hp from a motor that's only made to make 200hp isn't going to hurt it? Wrong. The manufactuers of engines don't build the engine to withstand more power than it can make stock. You think people just toss a turbo or supercharger system on their vehicle and that's it? No. Even though a Turbo or Supercharger won't pump out such an increase in power, they still modify the motor itself, or it will eventually grenade itself. The motor would need new rods, a new crank and possibly new pistons. The motor will not last if you pump more power through it than it's made for, it's common sense.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

Wally your a pretty funny guy.

88GrandPrixSE: its good to see someone has some common sence on here. Nitrous pushes the motor to far. simple as that.

posted by  DTMBaller

Thankyou. It's better than getting all twisted in knots about the mol count of oxygen in a fuel mixture.

posted by  Wally

Glad to see not everyone around this forum walks around with their head up their ass. :screwy:

posted by  DTMBaller

That statement probably has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard in the history of anything that even deals arround cars.

If that were even remotley true then companys that downgrade engine horspower to achieve better fuel economy or whatever have you would mean that the downgraded HP would be all that the engine was capable when in fact its capabale of more by simply removing the process of what they went through to downgrade the engine.

If that were true then companys would'nt offer their own performance upgrades for their own engines, because according to you the engine was'nt built to withstand more power than it can make stock... Your logic is faulty in every way shape and form. Every engine can withstand more power than it does off the assembly line.

If what you were saying was true that would mean that an engine that produces 200HP would be at its maximum physical output under full load wich would severly decrease the reliability of the engine. You are just so far from the truth its not even funny. Engines are made to work within a range of power that will increase the logevity and quality of its functioning.

I'm compelled to ask where in the world did you get that idea from?

posted by  DSMer

Haha, you're an idiot, i'm not even going to argue with you anymore, I'll just leave it at we work really closely with Chrysler.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

Right or is it that you can't explain why you said what you said. Keeping in mind that Chrysler helped create my engine wich has been a proven fact to handle 105 more HP on a completly stock engine. So I'm all ears lets hear your reason for being.

By not answering you agree that your statements make no sense.

posted by  DSMer

AFAIK for years the Japs used precision engineering to achieve confidence intervals that US manufacturers achieved by engineering in redundancy and latent inefficiency.

I would feel more at ease whacking forced draught on a Jap rather than a say a Buick 3.8 aesthmatic. Even then I would uprate the pistons and conrods as a minimum, with a great deal of thought to the crankshaft.

posted by  Wally

that is the biggest bullshit statement i have heard. :screwy:

posted by  DTMBaller

Evenstill, those are just measurments you can take to ensure the logevity of said engine. Even you could'nt sit there and tell me my engine will never be stronger, more efficient, or more powerful than it was when the company engineered it. Thats ludicrious... The whole principle of aftermarket modification is to create/engineer something better than what was given off the assembly line...

posted by  DSMer

lol, how about we just call you; "oh captain my captain"?



I'm still trying to figure out why you brought this up... I covered this in my thread, that some people believe too much power is being put out and wears too much on the engine, which is also why i gave short list of other things to upgrade.

Here's another concept for you; a car immediately starts to die the day you buy it, it's slowly grenading itself, that much is a given. it's just the rate at how it decays that is the subject at hand. yes, with higher performance parts, the engine tends to decay faster, provided you didn't touch any other part of the engine.

Nitrous is not 'good' for your engine (neither is starting it up, mind you), but it's not as dramatically evil as you put it.

posted by  Godlaus

no nitrous is the devil. it is creating hell in my motor...well not mine but anyone who uses it. just ask your motor. i asked mine. it told me if i used nitrous it would granade itself. and for the price it costs to rebuild my motor. ha. lets just say it would cost more then your whole car DSMer.

posted by  DTMBaller

Hmm, would'nt be the first time somones told me that. And as I told them last time if you're paying in excess of $32,000 for a motor to be rebuilt you should probably get a second price from another mechanic. :smoke:

posted by  DSMer

there is no way your car is worth 32k dollars. you may thinks so. you may have wasted that much money on it and mods and stuff combined. but if you were to go to sell it you would have a snowballs chance in hell of getting that much.

posted by  DTMBaller

maybe he's not planning on selling it :screwy:

besides, he probably spent that money because he loves doing what he does, modding his car.

posted by  Godlaus

On the contrary I think US inspired engines are intrinsically agricultural, although I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule. This allows more scope for modifications, which I might say satisfies a large segment of your domestic tinkerers if the forums are anything to go by.

Being agricultural gives you more degrees of freedom to precision engineer, whereas Jap engines tend not to follow legacy trails and are precise to start with, therefore more focus by enthuisists to modfiy peripheral gear like, exhausts, TBs, turbo's, etc. Jap engines are also designed for decent fuel.

posted by  Wally

Exactly what car are we talking about?

posted by  DSMer

So are you saying that US inspired engines have been purposley engineered to be mal-efficient than that of a Japaneese inspired engine mainly because our consumers like the ability to precision engineer or create something that conforms to their needs?

Not that it does'nt make sense, it makes good thought I've just never looked at it from that perspective.

posted by  DSMer

I think the persistent pushrodasauris in the GM range will bear testament to the howls of protest that erupted when they rumoured wholesale change to the V8 line. There was already a DOHC multivalve V8 waiting for the nod in Melbourne GM, when a decision to protect jobs & aftermarket segments meant the LS1 would become the global powerplant and the overhead cam one silently got lost somewhere.

Tis a big business the aftermarket sector. Don't you remember your then president taking the Japs to task about their infiltration in the US market, while keeping doors closed at home?

Brand and product loyalty a big seller = you betcha

posted by  Wally

Haha, pushrodasauris. But does'nt this kind of event frequently occur within the realms of larger over industrialized business? Anything accumulating the ammount of profit that the aftermarket industry does surley would'nt be decided by a few hands at the head of a couple automotive corperations.

None the less, whos going to loose their heads from GM producing one with two cams in it?

posted by  DSMer

i dont care how much he loves his car, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. i love my car alot. doesnt make it any more or less valueble. my car is a 1991 BMW M5

posted by  DTMBaller

No one cares about your M5, thats chump change. Buying an expensive car 14 years after it originally came out does'nt make you rich, it just makes you a guy who can't afford a 2004 BMW M5 so you buy a 1991.

Again, if you're paying in excess of $32,000 for a motor rebuilt on a 91 M5 that you probably paid less than 20K for. You're not exactly getting your moneys worth..

posted by  DSMer

I should point out I used the DOHC term loosely. I will try to find the original details to see if it had 4 cams total.

And I'm obviously over simplifying what strategies a company like GM might have in place. I'm sure they have their own agendas and tactics that we can only guess at.

posted by  Wally

Only ignorant dildos who have watched The Fast and the Stupid too many times call all nitrous systems NAWSS. You prove everytime you hit the submit button that you fit into that category.



I did re-read it and this is what you said;



You didn't specify that it's a fuel but you DID state "it burns extremely hot". Nitrous DOES NOT BURN EXTEMELY HOT because it is not a fuel. Are you so stupid that you need that repeated? Probably so.



No, it won't. If you have the proper air fuel ratio it will burn at the exact same temperature as a stock engine. If you're smart enough you can even make it run cooler.



For once you're right. You didn't imply it, you clearly stated it. Are you really that stupid? What exactly is a "top fuel hydro mechanic" and who does he work for? Name and team please. Yes, that's a put up or shut up.



Hey dipshit. You're so confused that you're starting to confuse us. Are you talking about nitro, which most certainly burns by itself or nitrous which you said earlier burns by itself? Either way you're as wrong as the day is long.



No, you'll just waste our time and bandwidth on a car forum spewing bullshit and lying through your teeth. Face it, we all realize that you have absolutely no clueas to what you're talking about, why can't you see that?



"It takes on to know one." Wow, that's original, who writes your lines, Dave Chapelle? You're so cool, I want to be just like you after I have my labotomy. I just saw a TV show about you. They had an election between a giant douche and a turd sandwich... Which one were you?



No, pretty much just you.


Have you listened to anything you've said... In this post alone? You are number one and have nine of the top ten places on the "Dumbest Thing Anybody Ever Said" list.

You sir are the King of Idiots. Please refrain from posting any more of your worthless crap.

posted by  vwhobo

yes your right. you know nothing about the car and the fact that i didnt want an electronicaly driven car makes me poor. your car is a piece of shit that is worth no where near 32k and i could give a fly rats ass what you say about it. id take my car over yours any day of the week and i know a crap load of people who would as well.

posted by  DTMBaller

wow look who it is. i thought you got up and left. im glad to see your back. i didnt call it naws. i called it nos. a nitrous oxcide system. and im not going to even waste my time reading the rest of your post.

posted by  DTMBaller

Sorry if I used too many big words. That's okay, everyone else will read it and they'll see just how much of a waste you are... If they didn't already know.

posted by  vwhobo

ok good.

posted by  DTMBaller

Yep, true to form.

posted by  vwhobo

hahaha. wow that just shows me that you are a dumb shit. thanks for removing all doubt. and good job adding my name to a quote you made up. i can do it to wanna see...

posted by  DTMBaller

Instead of tap dancing, how about addressing the issues I brought up in post #65 of this thread. Or aren't you man enough.

.


That's what I thought.

posted by  vwhobo

you sick ****. stay the hell away from me. :screwy: :banghead: :cussing: :fu:

posted by  DTMBaller

Electronically driven vehicle? Hmm, and what would you be referring to? I thought that I was supposed to be the one who knew nothing about cars. You're referring to a production BMW that "electronically [drives]" itself. Maybe it exists in true for or maybe its just another one of those statements of yours that proves exactly how stupid you really are.

Again as I have said before and will say again. If you're going to pay in excess of $32,000 to rebuild the engine on a 91 M5 thats worth less that half that formentioned price, you're getting ripped off. Oh but thats right, your car is almost 15 years old you just might be needing that rebuilt engine.

posted by  DSMer

they are just about self driven with that damn i drive. its sad when you take everything so literaly. your car isnt worth 35k and my engine will go to 300kmiles easy. its just broken in right now.

posted by  DTMBaller

Right I suppose the steeringwheel just automaticly moves on its own? Maybe the manual transmission shifts on its own. Hell the clutch kicks in and the throttle lets out on its own to. Not to mention the car brakes just in the nick of time, all by its electronically driven computer... Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending to be for the sake of ammusing me?

Who mentioned anything about $35,000. Obviously said car would have depreciated overtime and that anything I purchased would have deprectiated in value. BUT, even after years of depreciation my vehicles KBB says my car is still worth more than a fully loaded, low mileage, 1991 BMW M5.

So what exactly have you been trying to get at all this time? You "supposedly" drive some BMW? So you're assuming this makes you special or somehow important? Hell, I think you should be more concerned with your lacking ability to show that you have recieved a valid education than the costs of your car compared to others.(Wich valued at just over 10K is'nt much in todays car industry). I keep warning parents that inbreeding makes children stupid, but as I can clearly see in your case they just don't listen.

posted by  DSMer

ha. well actualy the new m5 doesnt have a clutch. and again. taking things to literaly.

kbb is a joke. ive seen e34 m5's go for over 20k. that is when you can find them. not the most comon car. and just out of curiosity how much did kbb say your car was worth?

oh here we go with the supposedly shit. next thing your gonna be telling me my parents bought it for me or that its not even mine.

posted by  DTMBaller

Hmm KBB is a joke yet its the number one source that almost everyone who sells and buys cars(including dealerships) goes off. Right.. We're talking about a 91 M5. Wich really is'nt worth a dime over $9500. Wich is still considerably good for a car thats almost 15 years old. My GSX was'nt even worth that much. Somwhere upwards of $4500.

None the less, you thought that your engine somehow cost more than the car that I drive when in fact it is not. You were wrong. My car is actually a lemon and yet still worth more than your car in pristine condition. It has been in four accidents both a front bumper collision, driver side fender collision, driver side mirror, and rear bumper collison and is still yet appraised at more value than your cars worth. Hell I've replaced more parts on it within the last 2 years than your cars value is worth. Well I did'nt actually pay for them the dealership did.

So as you can see to rebuild your engine would'nt cost more than my car. Hell it probably cost less than the rack an pinion thats being replaced on my car as we speak(Wich is in excess of $1500). So where would you like to go from here? Admitting you were wrong about this, or would you like to continue further down this path with your "supposed" BMW?

posted by  DSMer

Sometimes true, mostly not true. 100 HP gains and under alot of stock engines can handle. Not to mention it depends on how you got that extra power. With nitrous it's usually a safe gain if 100 or under.

posted by  DodgeRida67

Even if running nitrous at the proper air/fuel ratio, there is still more oxygen by the nitrous and if more fuel goes in, to make the air/fuel ratio rich or the same as a stock engine, there is still more oxygen and fuel but the ratio is still the same. So when more oxygen and fuel burn, than it has to be hotter, right which is why the piston moves down faster cuz of the expanding gas.
So I guess even if running nitrous even with a 30hp shot, the power stroke will still be more hotter than normal to make that piston go down faster.

posted by  CarEXPERT

You know CarExpert I must say, You have gained an incredable amount of knowledge from your stint here on the forums. It seems like just yesterday you were the 14 year old pot smoking retard trying to convince people your smarter tahn you were. But now, It seems like you have really tried, and have more knowledge than you let on.

Good job! :thumbs:

posted by  Zalight

well lets see... my engine completely stock. for a rebuild is 9k as i said before. kbb is off on alot of the more uncommon cars such as mine. expecialy considering an e34 m5 in crappy un running condition goes for what kbb says a pristine one should go for. if we are going by kbb though then my motor does cost more then your car. if you think your car as a lemon or as a pristine car is worth more then my car you are fooling yourself. who appraised your car. id like them to appraise mine. if their appraisal is as much as your making it out to be then my car must be worth like 40k easily. so as i have proven my engine does cost more then your car. and you rack and pinion is about as much as my windshield. but seriously. what did your car get appraised at and where did you have it done?

posted by  DTMBaller

Oh my god, you're still at this? You swear by the holy grail your car has to be an all numbers matching mint condition GT500 or something of the sort. You're an idiot if you'd pay $9,000 to have your engine rebuilt, you could buy another 91 M5 for that same price. Give it up, you drive a 15 year old car, stop lying to yourself. Its old, not brand new. Your continuing this argument and you don't even know what kind of car I drive. I drive a SL65 AMG... There shutup, it retails at above anything you can afford.

posted by  DSMer

good luck finding a 91 m5 in good condition for 9k

posted by  DTMBaller

As VWHobo said if you have correct fueling and spray patterns the latent heat of vapourisation can keep the temperatures as low if not lower than normal combustion temps. Drag cars used to rely on this as witnessed by the icing around the throttle bodies.

Ideal gas laws tell you the prcess can be isothermal and isochoric so long as the pressure changes. P1V1/T1 = P2V2/T2

If however you run lean the temperatures will soar and det will undoubtedly occur.

posted by  Wally

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?advanced=&certified=&isp=y& search=y&lang=en&search_type=both&make=BMW&model=M5&start_year=1981&end_yea r=1991&min_price=&max_price=10000&distance=0&address=43218&x=65&y=14

posted by  vwhobo

Nonsense, I've found one by clicking my mouse a couple of times in my favorite color on Bmw... WHITE. N according to you its just breaking in on engine mileage.

White 91 M5 (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=179531209&dealer_id=56070490& car_year=1991&make=BMW&distance=0&lang=en&max_price=&model=M5&end_year=1995 &min_price=&first_record=26&pager.offset=25&certified=&address=60162&search _type=both&advanced=&isp=y&start_year=1981&cardist=903)

Or how about this one thats about 2K more. I could spare it...

91 M5 (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=178999913&dealer_id=56024798& car_year=1991&make=BMW&distance=0&lang=en&max_price=&model=M5&end_year=1995 &min_price=&first_record=26&pager.offset=25&certified=&address=60162&search _type=both&advanced=&isp=y&start_year=1981&cardist=835)

Or maybe this one in my second favoritest BMW color... Black.

91 M5 (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=176636390&dealer_id=55811692& car_year=1991&make=BMW&distance=0&lang=en&max_price=&model=M5&end_year=1995 &min_price=&first_record=26&pager.offset=25&certified=&address=60162&search _type=both&advanced=&isp=y&start_year=1981&cardist=1732)

Wooh, I broke a really big sweat finding those cars. Man I almost worked my entire hand muslce.

posted by  DSMer

all 3 are high millage. the one that acctualy had info on it needs a paint job as well. who knows about the other 2. i could go buy an e30 m3 for 4 k if i really really looked. but id have to put 10k into it to make it reliable.

posted by  DTMBaller

2 of those are on vwhobo's list. and the one that isnt is the same basicaly as the others. cept its in the snow as well. which brings up the whole rust issue. keep trying. find me a worthy m5 for under 9k. cant be done.

posted by  DTMBaller

According to you 170,000 miles is just "breaking" the engine in. You surley would'nt be going back on your word now would you. You said these engines are garaunteed to go up to 300,000 miles and beyond. 50% of total expected mileage is'nt high at all. Remember these are your words not mine. You said good luck finding a good condition 91 M5 for under 9K. We found you 4 in the price range. All in good running condition and according to you with engines thats are just being broken in.

You would'nt be going back on your word now would you? Are you through dancing or would you rather me chase you arround the bush some more. You said your cars engine cost more than mine. You were wrong. You said your car is worth more than 10K. You were wrong. You said we could'nt find any 91 M5's in the 9K price range. Again you were wrong.

I'm starting to see that the only one here full of shit here is you. So whats your next step you worthless pissant? You want to continue your meaningless argument or just give up now, because you've been proven wrong on EVERY single argument you put up. So whats it going to be?

posted by  DSMer

ok i dont see how everything i have said is wrong concidering i proved all of it to be right. but ok u keep telling yourself that. i think ill just put u on the ignore list now. cause i see you are stubron and ignorant. no point in wasting my time.

posted by  DTMBaller

Right, you have'nt proved anything. Where are your slips that say your M5 can beat a Mustang GT. Where are your appraisal slips for how much your car is really worth. Why can I find M5's for $9,000 when you said I could'nt. Where are your estimates that say your engine will cost $9,000 to rebuild. Why won't you answer any of mine or others questions? You have no evidence and like the bitch you are you will hide from the truth.

Ha, I win....

posted by  DSMer

you should like nitrous a little, it can speed up your car really fast :fu:

posted by  gtr_man

too bad NOS is expensive!

posted by  jdubya

Noooo... NITROUS is the best bang for your buck. You can get wet systems for 700 bucks, which is way cheaper than 2k for a turbo setup.

posted by  Godlaus

But doesnt it waste and you have to fill it up? How long would a bottle last if you hold down the button?

posted by  CarEXPERT

Nos is great for a power adder, but i have to admit I am afraid to try NOS because I had a friend used it and blew two motor in his Civic hacth in two weeks. But the reason I am even putting this on here is some people look at NOS is the long term veiw and short term. What i mean long term is they see ok you have to fill up a bottle say 30 bucks and say you go threw a bottle a week (yes my friend did that to his car, and they said he blew his motor from advacing or rearding his timeing too much I cant remember I just no it is the wrost of the picks) 30 time 52 = 1560 bucks a year not to mention another 500 for a good nos system when you can get a turbo kit for 2 grand and do lots of upgrades. so short short term is great but long term i see the turbo as better.

posted by  Flirtyboy04

couple of my friends says nos blows up, cuz they saw the fast and the furious.. but i disagree.. can ya help us out?

posted by  Guns_10

NITROUS does not blow up. It lowers the temperature of everything around it (air, specifically), so more air molecules can fit into the combustion chamber, and it's an oxidizer in itself. NOS (a form of nitrous) is not flammable (it says not flammable on the bottles), exposive, in any form.

posted by  Godlaus

would it blow just from the compresion if it got punctured?

posted by  Guns_10

Yes, but most motors are built with design tolerances, then tuned down about 25% from those tolerances. Well at least the japanese cars are. Some engines are stronger than others. A 4g63 is a stronger motor than a 6g72. A k series motor has stronger components than a d series. A lot of cars are coming out n.a. with forged pistons. All the VTEC motors have them, simply because they run a high mechnical compression anyways. Cast pistons are getting harder to find in stock vehicles today. What you have to worry about is the crank and rod bearings. Running that kind of boost will mean any knock or ping is going to cause 4 to 5 times more damage than just running bad gas.

posted by  desertsoldier22

Not really, it would just be like taking aplastic bag, filling it with air, closing it, and hitting the thing hard enough so that it breaks. It wouldn't explode, but elave a big hole and make a lot of noise. And punctured 1400 psi bottles contribute to driver fatalities every year. There was a petition to illegalize N20 because of this reason.

posted by  Godlaus

NOS isnt a FORM of nitrous....its a BRAND NAME. But your right..it does not blow up. Nitrous has been used since the 1940's for an extra boost of power.
All I gotta say is..........BOTTLES ARE FOR BABIES :mrgreen:
Just kidding around....I dont have a problem with it.
But...when you can build a car that runs the 1/4 in the low 12's or into the 11's without N2O its much more respectable.......and no worries about the eventually inevitable parts breakage.

posted by  norice

I was looking for another thread, but came across this and re-read it. Some more people should read it, but there is some misinformation...N2O does not look like this:
http://www.caa.ubc.ca/lab/3/n2o.gif
...Molecules can't form those shapes because of the electrons (Not sure exactly why, but my last test shows that it's the wrong way to do it lol)...It would actually look like this lol:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Nitrous-oxide-2D-V B.png/250px-Nitrous-oxide-2D-VB.png

posted by  chris_knows

2k for a very cheap and or used setup, not including installation or a tune, if you have to apy someone to istall and it and tune it, and a decent setup easily 4k++++++++

posted by  Pythias

Isn't nitrous bad for your engine?

posted by  Bronxie

Wonder what ever happened to the DSMer troll?

posted by  Wally

I dissapeared a few years into my mech. engineering degree. Want to help me with my engineering design class? I could really use a tutor :hi: .

posted by  DSMer

Not really. And that's not for any reason other than I can't be fagged.:wink2:

Are you doing OK with it? I admire you for knuckling down and directing your energy into one of the more difficult qualifications.

posted by  Wally

that's not what you said last night, baby...


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

posted by  dodger65

:evil: Just what I need ....a kiss and tell.:wink2:

posted by  Wally

I can assure you, as you may allready know. With advances in technology over the past few decades its most definetly not getting any easier, but I stick too it. I am however going to start an internship with BMW, that should be a treat :wink2:

posted by  DSMer

off topic, but hey, dsmer. how noticeable is the vibration when you eliminate the balance shafts on a 4g63t?

posted by  dodger65

I've never actually done it to any of the DSM's I've owned, but from what a few good buddies of mine it makes a noticable difference. Especially at idle.

posted by  DSMer

well, that kinda sucks... thanks, though :thumbs:

posted by  dodger65

Awesome, perhaps you can get them to stop with the reverse-engineering. Thats where technology progress the wrong way. Too many examples to list, but heres one: We don't need an oil dipstick because we have a series of buttons you can push in the car that tell you the oil level in about 10 minutes of sitting there waiting after an oil change.

Then...theres iDrive...

Ok, thats my rant.

posted by  Mathew

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