To all European car fans...

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Why do you love European cars?
Why would you drive one?

I understand that most people on this forum write us from states, and in these years of rebirth of American car industry in all the fields that once was reserved for European cars, why would you Americans buy European car? I admire new Ford cars, especially Mustang’s design, new Pontiacs GTO and many other (truly and completely fulfilling the meaning of the word) remakes, and tradition follows.
So, why?

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

I don't know, something about foriegn cars is very appealing I guess.

For years I wanted to bring one of these bad boys across the border.

I see lots of potential. :thumbs:

posted by  elchango36

I have 7 Fiats and everyone gives me sh*t for liking them.

posted by  x1/9-rally

BMW is European, they generally look better, BMW is European, the autobahn has more influence on their design, BMW is European... :laughing:

posted by  jedimario

Atleast ChrisV is on your side lol.

I love the build quality of German cars, especially BMW's (dont get me started on why I love BMW's manuals gearboxes.....i've been through it on numerous occasions lol). The only gripe I have with BMW is the fact that these days they seem too commonplace if you know what I mean, whereas Mercedes seem to have a more luxurious feel to them and the standard spec is alot better. Even as far as older Beemers are concerned, anybody can drive an older BMW, but you still get a sort of sence of pride if you drive a slightly older Merc. Hope that all makes sense :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

I never even had a slightest doubt about manuals vs. automatic, because manual is the way of true drivers…

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

I know....but a BMW manual is a whole new ball game lol....atleast older ones were anyway. It's just the solid, precise feel the selector has. And the way you push it into reverse......really nice lol, am I sad? :ohcrap: :drool: :laughing: :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

Yeah right and the Pope is a Jew.

posted by  Wally

Must..bite...tongue... :banghead:

posted by  ChrisV

Chris, please tell me examples of rally drivers with automatic shifters... :laughing:

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

I agree. Shifting into reverse in a BMW is very satisfying. It might be that you have to really shove it to the left, and throw it forward. Makes a satisfying "clunk". Makes you feel like a man. Haha... :laughing:

posted by  Mathew

Yes, that's exactly it lol......bit like shutting the doors on an upmarket car, and they "clunk" lol :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

hmm, are you implying that rally drivers are the only "real drivers"?

posted by  pik_d

Prolly not, but they are among them I will assume.

posted by  Pythias

true rally drivers are among "real drivers", as they are both real, and drivers...

but i still see no reason why he wants chris to give him that kind of example.

either way, i'd like to know his definition of "real driver".

posted by  pik_d

the way i see it is.. there relaible.. ( bmw.. mbenz) but im personally a fan of the gti's and pegueot

posted by  vlc92189

Tell me why you think shifting is any more than 10% of driving/ Or are you saying that even if you are steering, braking, accellerating, placing a car at teh apex, feint steering around a dirt corner, etc, your not DRIVING unless upui move a little lever a couple inches?

Tell you what, take the clutch pedal out of a car and make it an automatic. See how much control you have driving down the road. I'd be willing to be that you could still corner, brake, stay in your lane, accellerate, and get where you were going.

Now, take the brake pedal out, or the steering wheel. See how far you get.

Moving the clutch pedal is a VERY small part of being in control. Ask anyone racing fast go karts that don't have shifters at all. Fun AND in control.

If shifting is all that driving is about, and all the fun of driving, then as I've said, put a shifter and a clutch pedal on your easy chair at home and shift to your heart's content. You'll get all the "fun" and "control" of driving, without having to worry about fuel costs or having someoen hit you. me? I'll be out on the road, in full control and having a huge amount of fun, in ANY car. I swear that people are of the opinion that if you have an automatic, yor'e not even going to make it to your destination. Doe sthe third pedal control where you steer to? What lane you're in? How close to the apex you come? how close to the car ahead of you you get? What roads you drive on? What exactly are you defining as "being in control" of the car, if it's defined by pushing that clutch pedal in every once in a while?

As I've said before, I've had a lot of fast cars with automatics and a lot of fast cars with manuals. I simply haven't seen the reduction in control or fun that people talk about UNLESS I was in a car that wasn't fun to start with (like a Hyundai Accent or Renault Alliance).

posted by  ChrisV

I thought I had a really great post. Turns out it was me rambling about how fast and fun real go karts are. Sooooo........

posted by  Scolson

Mind you, I'm not talking shifter karts, I'm talking F1 Boston, Grand Prix karts, indoor, 45mph kart tracks around the world.

Fast, fun, control, need a lot of driving skill, aqnd not a shifter in sight.

The main point is that most of what driving is about has nothing to do with shifting, so saying the difference between real drivers and non drivers is a clutch pedal and a little lever, is ridiculous.

posted by  ChrisV

I take strong exception to that statement. I have two Hyundai Accents that my son and I race each other with in a field on the back of my property. This is not for money, trophies or points, only for mindless fun after a hard week. Did I mention that they're both automatics and the clutches/bands are burned out in the forward gears so all of our racing is done in reverse... And usually in the dark?

I may not be a redneck, but I sure know how to act like one. Yes kids, Hyundais CAN be fun even when they're out of control.:wink2:

posted by  vwhobo

So I guess next time someone starts up up about ¼ mile times, you will make a point of mentioning that people running auto transmissions are not real drivers either.

And I'm also guessing Subaru's variable torque system is not for real drivers either. And their WRC six speed semi auto box is not real either.

posted by  Wally

In that case, a Ford Fiesta would be fun! :laughing:

posted by  jedimario

me? huh? :ohcrap:

ngluvakov(euro) is the one who said that manuals are for real drivers, or something to that effect.

posted by  pik_d

Sorry, clicked on the wrong quote button:mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

lol! But would they be MORE fun with crappy Hyundai manual transmissions? My Hyundai Accent was an automatic and it woudl have been no more fun with a manual...

oh, and it isn't the fact that it's a Hyundai that makes what you're doing fun... ;)

posted by  ChrisV

No, stupidity and occasionaly alcohol is what makes it fun.

posted by  vwhobo

Chris, Chris… I have feeling that if I would said other way (that automatic gearbox is great), you would oppose me. That is something you do all the time. I like your posts when you use experience and common sense, but when you post just to oppose. By aggressive style of typing and lie about some “experience” that you had, you can’t be right. Then you find some most eccentric example and stick to it like it was ultimate example as for these kart racings. You have gone way out of subject here. While subject was clear, where you could simply post message as ones at the beginning, you didn’t. But after a while, when you saw a chance to feed your ego, and start a fight, you showed up. As for your information, most elite competitions in car racing have manual transmission cars. Even F1 has it. That is relevant, not some god knows what kind of competition that you are writing about. Manual transmission cars are lighter than automatic transmission positively affecting fuel consumption. With experienced driver you can have smoother ride with manual transmission than you can have with automatic one. It is a bit subjective how you drive it, but with a practice you can get to the level when you drive like race driver. For example, when you go into curve that requires slowing down, by slowing you get to the point where torque is not optimum to start accelerating right after the apex of turn, so you can use (translated from my language without adaptation because I don’t know the right word) “mid throttle” where you press clutch, gas pedal to the rev level that suites current speed and lower gear rev level(1-2 month of practice makes it easy), switch to lower gear, resulting coming out from the apex of curve on the optimum for switching back to higher gear, while you have accelerated also optimally. If, you have misjudged your speed, it is easier to slow using engine in lower gear. There you can see that you have gained much more power at the end of curve, than you could possibly have with automatic, while you haven’t lost traction time. Same situation with automatic gearbox goes like this – You get to the curve, slow down and two things can happen:
1) You are slowing down, but mechanics haven’t shift to the lower gear, so you have very negative torque after apex, so you can’t accelerate optimally.
2) Engine shifts to lower gear, electronic / mechanics take more time to adjust revs/speed/gear – you lose power and speed, then when you start accelerating again engine shifts gear up, so you lose time/power/speed – AGAIN.
Chris, I am mechanical engineer, I think about what I say, and I try not to have prejudices, about anything. Believe me, if by any chance, automatic gearbox would be better, I would defend it even more than you with your infantile – aggressive approach to subject. I like you as a person, but try not to argue, when you haven’t enough (real) arguments. I beg you not to step of this thread’s subject.
No hard feelings, wish you all the best.

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

LIES?? WFT???????????????????

If I were here just to oppose you we wouldn't have had such good email conversations about your 3D work. YOU made a statement and I tried not to respond. You then responded with another extreme statement designed specifically to start a fight with ME! Here you are insulting me when I did NOT insult you at all in this thread until NOW!

YOU said that manual was the "true way of the driver," and then said that RALLY DRIVERS were your example, as though RALLY drivers aren't an extreme singular example themselves! AND YOU DID IT FIRST, YOU IGNORANT POS! rallye drivers have NOTHING TO DO WITH STREET driving. Which is why I used karts. Do you or do you not have contol of the kart, and have fun driving them?

No, I was going to respond but before I had the chance YOU made a stupid statement that nothing to do with the subject. And even though I was not GOING to respond, YOU made another statment that had no bearing on teh subject and was ALSO extreme. I'm not here 24/7 so somethimes yes, sometimes threads actually get pretty fart along before I have a chance to see them. Did you think of that? No, like everythig else, opinion is more important than knowing anything to you.


What the **** does F1 have relevance to street cars? F1 has single seats, carbon fiber monocoque, regulated displacement and regulated tire sizes. They also have huge wings and ground effects, as well as running on non automotive fuel. F1 is not road cars! Talk about your extreme examples... :banghead:

But let's explore this a bit, since you seem to have so much experience. Do you know WHY road racers and rally cars have manuals? In the beginning, there WERE no automatics. When automatics were developed and mass produced, they were for luxury cars, daily drivers, and they were heavy and sloppy. By that time, road racing was laready nearly 50 years old!

Automatics use planetary gearsets, unlike the hypoid gearsets of conventional manuals. gear changes are accomplished by hydralically changing which of th eplanetary gearsets mesh, and then applying pressure on internal bands and clutch packs. manual gearboxes use sliding shafts with meshing hypoid gears of different ratios. Why is this important?

Planetary gearsets are complex, and take up a lot of space in the gearbox. There are fewer ratios in the same size gearbox because of this. Small, high rpm engines narrow powerbands up high need more ratios to keep them in their powerband. And small, high revving engines with narrow powerbands are what most road racers have had over the decades. Those kinds of engines are very sensitive to not only the weight of the car, but the kind of track they are running on. Heavier cars need different ratios than lighter cars, short tracks need different gears than long tracks, hilly tracks need different gear ratios than flat tracks, and many tracks are a combination of all of that that need special gear ratios too.

A gearbox manufacturer like ZF, Hewland, Getrag, Coletti, etc can make one gearbox, a couple bellhousings for different engines, and thousands of gearsets to match any engine in any car to any track. And it only takes a few minutes at the track during practice for a team to set up the transmission to match their particular combination. And if a gear goes bad, they can swap it out pretty easily. This is extremely important in small sports cars. And it's nearly impossible to do with planetary gearsets in automatics.

THAT'S why road racers and rallyists us manuals, not becaeu they are teh way of the true driver....

Large engine cars with a lot of torque don't need as many ratios, and don't need as many different sets, as the engine makes more power than anyone needs for most low speed corners and short straights. And drag racers want the consistency and speed of an automatic. Taking a large automatic that is tuned for smooth shifts and luxury, using a smaller torque converter that locks up at a particular rpm, higher pressre valve bodies that put more pressure on the bands for zero slippage and quicker shifting makes a big engine car with an automatic quicker AND more efficient. And turbo cars can take advantage of the fact that you don't have to let up on the throttle during a shift, thus continuing to make boost and power THROUGH the shift. (you can do that with a manual, but you run the very real risk of blowing a synchro, the trans, or at least missing the next gear).

This is why top manufactures are trying to get the advantages of the automatic (faster, quicker shifts, more consistency, no missed shifts, no blowing up the trans shifting too fast) with the advantages of the manual (more available ratios) and going with paddle shifting setups. the driver only has to flick a finger to make teh gearbox shift up or down, leaving them able to concentrate on teh REAL acts of driving, knowing when to turn, where to turn, when to slow, when to accellerate, and how to get around other cars.

Oh, come on. In a 2000-3000 lb car, the difference is MAYBE 25 lbs, which isn't enough to even be noticed. And a torque converter is lighter than an iron flywheel/clutch/pressure plate assembly.

I know you don't meen "ride" as that is the suspension's job. But drive? Ride with a person in a BMW or Mercedes with an automatic and in one with a manual. The manual driver will ALWAYS be less smooth. You sinply can't let off the throttle, shift, and let the clutch out as smooth as you think you are from the driver's seat. Watch a passenger with you next time and see their head go back and forth when you shift. Even when shifting smoothly. And then ride in a race car. NO ONE is trying to shift smoothly.

Again, a race driver NEVERE shifts smooth. That's not what they are trying to do. They are trying to shift FAST, and it will always be harsh. Dude, if you were here, you'd see that I can outshift you, and have for decades. You want to call that a lie, go ahead if it makes you sleep easier at night. I have the trophies here.

Have you ever thought of actually moving the lever manually? That's what we do with automatics when we race them. Hell, when we put in the shift kits that change the band pressure and hydralics, the trans shifts instantly to whatever gear we want it to be in without slipping OR having to let off the throttle.

[quote]2) Engine shifts to lower gear, electronic / mechanics take more time to adjust revs/speed/gear – you lose power and speed, then when you start accelerating again engine shifts gear up, so you lose time/power/speed – AGAIN.[/quopte]

The engine mechanics don't take any time to adjust. I dont' know whare you get THIS theory from, but it' doesn't match reality. Have you ever driven a car like this:

I don't think so. You want to call me a liar again, but I HAVE MORE REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE THAN YOU EVER WILL!!!!

Oh, knock of the "I'm a superior engineer and if you disagree with me, you're infantile" bullshit. You haven't got any goddamn real world experience, just a mass of theory.


That statement right there. Had zero to do with European cars, and I said I wasn't going to argue (you know, the "must bite tongue" post?) But you had to escalate it yourself in response! So don't pin this on me, you revisionist ASSCLOWN!

posted by  ChrisV

:orglaugh: :orglaugh: :orglaugh:

posted by  jedimario

The poor old slushbox really comes in for a hiding on occasions doesn't it.:laughing:

Still, I bet there are a lot of engineers and "real" drivers out there that have one in their daily drives. Actually I lie..... it seems the only real drivers are F1 competitors and there isn't many of them to start with.

posted by  Wally

Don't forget rallye car drivers, apparently.

Funny that out of all the controls in a car, from steering, brakes, accellerator, and all the parts of a car, from suspension and springs, alignment, engine, etc, the ONLY thing that makes a person a driver is a third pedal and a little lever to move between gears.

Yeah, I like a good manaul, all the new cars I've bought have had them, my Fiat has a manual, and I even decided to adapt a Supra manual trans to the Lexus V8 going in my Comet, but man, wannabe engineers like this really piss me off with their inane commentary on what makes a "driver."


posted by  ChrisV

Well if it gives you any consolation, good engineers rarely use their qualification as a stick to beat a protagonist into submission. If an argument can't be made by explaining and reasoning it becomes a dud and no one is the wiser. You only have to go to a party and you can spot the self opinionated engineer.....he's the one who can't hold a conversation, can't dress and if he holds court; talks shop, boring the bejesus out out everyone.:heh:

I don't care if I'm not a "real" driver, I easily wipe the floor with most gear slammers in my factory auto tranny fitted daily drive. And as i have posted before I can drink my coke, eat my chips, use my mobile and rest my left foot.

posted by  Wally

Oh and one more thing, that I think ChrisV touched on. European cars are generally buzz boxes. Shoving an auto in these would probably shave about 50% of the available power to the wheels at cruising rpm.:lol:

posted by  Wally

O.K. then, I don’t like you to call me assclown, but on the other hand, I just might asked for it, with me calling you infantile. I apologize, that kind of attitude will never happen again from my side. I think that this conversation has reached level that I don’t want to have part of. I provoked it myself. I admit that I am wrong for insulting others publicly, so to those who read this. I made mistake, I am wrong about calling Mr. Chris V. infantile, beside the fact that he isn’t infantile, I can’t go around calling people names. I agree that I am taking this too much by the book, but undeniable fact is that I like to do that. I might not be right, but also that shows my opinion which is, you must admit, subjective and respective even if not everyone agrees, is it? I take Chris’s posts with highest regard and I respect his experience. But, I disagree. If you can, I think that you should send me technical drawing of both gearboxes together with their materials specifications (for same engine), so I can analyze their mass, durability (using Smith’s diagrams and Veler’s curve), therefore we can get relevant results. Not to argue just to piss off each other. Chris V, I hold very high opinion about you, I don’t want to loose your respect. It is important to me that I stand behind my words. Very moment that I have red your post, I got feeling to apologize and explain myself. It is very hard time for me. Don’t get me 100% serious, because I need some time for myself. I have had period of stress, because exams have came, life is expensive here, this country is very unfriendly towards loners, I am in divorce progress, I am under medication treatment, asthma is killing me, mental disorders are dragging me into pit, I sincerely cant see way out. I don’t even think that I can survive this period, it’s too much for me. To put you an example, I will show you one average day of me. First thing in the morning I get up, go to the cathedra of mechanical engineering to argue about use of computers in mechanical engineering – imagine the retards that still believe that anything is done better manually, then I present them my ideas about easier calculating of simple mechanical processes by compute, then I come back home, work more on program I work on, so I can impress them more tomorrow, I can’t find any girlfriend because I can’t go out (I have asthma, and in my country there is no non – smoker zone to go out). Then I have to think about existence problems. Then I go online to look for some stipend for abroad study, which always results with no luck… I just seem to have hard life overall. I just can’t do anything right. No surprise that I tend to be little pushy with my ideas. Time goes by, but nothing seems to go right way. I have invented program for evaluating durability of machine elements (almost perfectly), but in my country no one gives damn bout it, I am surrounded by people that are trying to prevent me from succeeding. In my country it is dream to get out of it. I just become overcame by the situation. I can’t believe that I am still alive. I fight so hard, but no results come. I just want to die. I don’t want to live in this misery any more. I want to end my life and never again to be bothered. I want to rest in peace. Even though my talents go further than average, people here are trying to get you below the average, to make of you idiot. If this misery continues, I am very sure that I will end my life before I reach the top of my humiliation. I have no reason to believe that it will go any better, because whole atmosphere in this shitty country is negative. I just want to show how much I can, and work to prove it, but nothing is helping me. Chris, I am idiot, please forgive me for insulting you. I will try not to act like one in future. Hopefully this will be last post of mine. I hope that I won’t wake up tomorrow. I just hope that I will finally die. That would save me from trouble in future, but in truth, I know that I will wake up tomorrow, which will be very disappointing to me. All those things that I knew to do best, I find irrelevant, and I don’t have chance to do any more. Very depressing fact. I am under psychotherapy, I hope that it will help me, but sincerely I don’t see how, so please stick to the subject and don’t let some stupidity put hate between us. Again, forgive me…

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

Are you saying that I am not real because I drive a Camry with a auto? I am obviously a robot, or I am not driving; I am simply playing one giant video game that is called the game of "Life." Everytime I am running down a hall, I stop for a second (lag) and then fly forward a good distance simply because my connection to the world server isnt good. I do not exist.

I must admit, as soon as I can I am gonna learn how to drive a stick. :laughing:

posted by  StiMan

Actually, at cruising speed the auto torque converters are generally locked up, transmitting as much power through them as any clutch setup. The problems come in not enough hydraulic pressure on the bands, and shifts that are tuned for smoothness, which gives excesive slippage between gears.

That can be fixed, at the expense of shift harshness. And most people who buy stock automatics don't want shift harshness, so the manufacturers leave it to the aftermarket to make the kits that make the trans work right. A decent shift kit will haev almost zero slippage (no more than a clutch setup when letting the pedal out), run cooler, handle more power, and shift faster AND when you tell it to. It's just not luxurous, so it won't sell in a stock vehicle.

And if you limit your experience to stock economy cars and soft luxury cars with softly tuned stock automatics, you'll have an inaccurate picture of their actual ability.

posted by  ChrisV

The book learning won't work by itself. I constantly fix things that theorists and analytical software says should work but doesn't. Analysing material stresses won't tell you that a TH400 with a B&M shift kit shaves off 2 full seconds in the quarter mile on an otherwise stock big block Chevelle. AND lasts longer due to running cooler from less slippage.

Stop analyzing and BUILD the stuff. PLAY with cars like mine. Stop being an engineer, as it blinds you to the real world.

Let me give you an example. Rolls Royce got their automatic transmissions from GM for many years. But, being Rolls Royce engineers, they took the transmissions apart and polished the hydraulic channels, microground all the parts, presicion fit everything together, just like their engineering books said was perfect. They got transmission failure after transmission failure. Everything LOOKED perfect, and was built to Rolls Royce standards. Problem was, in the real world, the imperfections cast into the GM trans was what made it work right. The imperfections cave just the right amount of pressure and just the right amount of restriction to make everything work together. After RR stoped trying to overanalyze and perfect things, it all started to work again.

Do you think the hot rodders that created the entire aftermarket industry sat down with engnieering software, all your analytical tools and years of classroom education? No, they went out and BUILT things in their backyards, made them work (even if they shouldn't) and went fast.

posted by  ChrisV

he can't go outside, chris.... jeez! :smoke: <--- b/c of this guy...

posted by  dodger65

Hotrods and old school RULE !!

posted by  WesO

You find that amusing to you? Well, to me it is not.:thumbs:

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

YEah that wasn't too necessary after all this guy has said, we aren't dealing with some ignorant noob.

posted by  Pythias


posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

Nickola, listen, don't let too much stress get you down. Unles someone's actually pointing a real gun at your head, you'll get through it ok.

I was burned in a car fire in '92, had to sell my shop, was in a whelchair for 6 months and couldn't walk. The pain was excruciating for a while. And now it's in the past. Yesterday I had 4 teeth puled so I could get ready to put on braces (which I can finally afford to do). I'm on heavy meds right now, and this pain too shall pass.

I didn't get married until I was 37. Didn't even have a girlfriend for nearly a decade. So what. (was too much trouble trying to date when recovering from that sort of a blow to life...). Don't add it to your stress.

Do what YOU enjoy, and let the learning take it's course. When it's all said and done, it'll just be a set of memories fading away.

posted by  ChrisV

Thanks Chris, you truly have great courage and heart big like USA.

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

whatever. so i'm a dick. i just don't have any sympathy for someone that was all about how great his life was, etc. about 60 something posts ago (see "pix of your chix") AND coming off all hard in the beginning of this thread until chrisv handed him his ass and now it's "poor me" i'm not trying to devalue your problems, but where i come from, you don't

a) use them as an excuse to be offensive, or
b) air out all your personal problems to people that you (really think about this, now) barely know. i found it amusing that there's a little smoking guy emoticon here to blame your asthma on, and i'm not going to blame my pointing it out to pms, ok? i've got problems, too, but unless they pertain directly to a car or someone here--you're not going to hear about it. ngluvakov(euro), i hope your shit works out, and i'm going to put you on "ignore" so i don't read your posts and feel compelled to offend you and pythias anymore, ok?


posted by  dodger65

Oh come on dodge it's not like I attacked you, I just said that wasn't very necessary. It might have come off differently because you can't hear the tone in my voice which I forget from time to time (sorry) but it was a little harsh. You know I don't have a problem with you and I respect you.:thumbs:

posted by  Pythias

well, you'll notice that i'm not ignoring you... :wink2: that last was more of a smartass thing than anything else...

posted by  dodger65

lol ok, and true. :PP

posted by  Pythias

To explain myself:
It is true that I was having an idiotic attitude towards Mr. Chris V, but it is also true that I admitted that I had and said that I am sorry. Luckily, Chris is very good person, so he found enough place in his heart to forgive me. I hold great respect to each and every member of this forum, especially those who are fair. We all have real life from the other side of monitors, so we can have bad days too. When you have one, many things that you personally hate at people, you do it yourself. That doesn’t make you bad person. It’s just bad day. As in all friendships, you can’t expect someone to be 100% same at the beginning of friendship. Some of my first posts were offensive and inappropriate, but as time passed by, I have realized who is who on this forum and got some idea about each person’s personality (even if just a little bit). These days, I gained respect for many of you fellow car enthusiasts, and became attached to your posts. Sometimes, I can’t wait to see reply from you. That’s beginning to be friendship. It is not like I am sending my first posts. You can’t look with same eyes. Mistake is made, and I said that I am sorry. For example, numerous times I was getting in the fight and some heavy words were used, because of American vision of cars (safety, fuel, consumption etc.), but as you see in Euspa’s thread, I have accepted American view of cars and learned a lot from those discussions we had. I use this forum to improve myself, not to annoy people. Even when I do so, it is unintentionally, or I clearly say that I WAS WRONG, and use magic word SORRY (sincerely). I use this forum to improve my engineering knowledge, design knowledge, general knowledge and to improve myself as a person. From the example of Mr. Chris V.’s extremely tolerant act toward me, I learned a lot too. That tells me exactly the same thing that this guy Dodger was trying to tell me offensively. From some point of view, I can understand Dodger’s hostility, but from now on, I beg you, fellow CF members, not to take my first impression I made on this forum, as relevant, because, take my word on it, that impression is far from that which I leave on people as a person in real life. People that post on this forum, that I know (never mind if their posts were agreed with my view or not) are always welcome in my house, if they need any kind of help that I can provide. I am even thinking to make great gathering of CF’s members here in my country in my home. That receive would be the great way to improve communication between us, make new friendships, try our national cuisine (Get trunk like pigs:laughing: :laughing: ) and gradually best way to see kindness of our people.

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

i don't see how i'm hostile... :ticking: i'm a ray of f*cking sunshine,dammit! :smoke:

posted by  dodger65


posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

How about continuing on original subject?

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

ok i dont care if anybody reads this or not but this is for chris

ok chris let me begin to list to you all of the super cars, rally cars, exotic cars, and any other "real driver" cars wiht automatic transmitions.............o wait..........i probubly shouldnt be cause i would be listing every single last car. Let me bring in a few companys that i always thought of as producing "real driver" cars that do produce all of their cars wiht an automatic trans
-aston martin

and the list goes on and on and on ...............

posted by  ddavisso5

Sorry, you have me confused, are you suggesting that all the cars in that list are only available with an Auto transmission?....If so, you'd be wrong!

posted by  Cliffy

Oh and shifter karts have so much to do with street cars also.

posted by  Enthusiast

Maybe we should list some of the cars that only come in a manual.
Dodge Viper (has anyone here actually driven one competitively)
Lotus Elise
Ferrari Enzo

You guys where talking about ferrari and loambos being available in automatics. I really dont feel like looking it up but I think those may bet automated manuals and not automatics.

posted by  Enthusiast

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