BMW vs Mercedes

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WHo will win?????

Mercedes - pure luxury

BMW - luxury with perfect performance

posted by  ab99

Mercedes has better sport performance(get the V12 engine, I think its 493 horse, trumps the 745 series in terms of power) and luxury PERIOD, that is if youre willing to spend the bucks lol

posted by  Aten

493 horses with the S600
compare a S420 with a 745i
compare a 760li with a S600....then we see which is QUICKER
the beamer will leave the benz behind!!!!!!!!!

posted by  ab99

Geez, youre not reading the numbers right.

also, who cares about the s420 or the 745i, theyre both pathetic compared to these.

The s600 has more power, is lighter(the s600 sedan is lighter to the tune of 500 plus pounds, and we havent even gotten the coupe, the 7 series is all SEDANS)

With the engine that bmw has they shouldve gotten way more power, the benz makes all that power with a 5.5L, bmw has a 6.0L. the bmw has 48 valves, benz 36. benz has a SOHC, bmw has a DOHC. plus, the final drive ratio in the benz is better for fuel economy as well. I guess bmw must be ashamed of the mpg they get because they dont list it for those sedans.

Ive done the math, and mercedes makes a HELL of alot better car than bmw ever thought of making.

posted by  Aten

mercedes are far better cars, Safer and faster.

more luxurious and all around better, plus they have some of the best handling, and because of there computer systems they can actually "lean" into the turns.

posted by  Arthur

BMW all the way.... best performance

posted by  Vikas1

Ever heard of AMG? or brabus?? glad some of you idiots thing bmw is better..... yes bmw is good but mercedes is far ahead of it in the tecnology department and performance.

posted by  Arthur

uh have u ever heard of M? as in M3 and M5 ?

posted by  vipervenom25

uh have you ever heard of the slk55 AMG? supercharged, 0-60 4.5 seconds, .3 seconds BETTER than an m5

posted by  Aten

ok now have you ever heard of F1 ? ralph's BMW kills the Mercs at virtually every race by alot

what do u think about that

posted by  vipervenom25

bmw owns, i like them much better than mercedes

posted by  bLen

Thats funny that the SLK55 has to have a supercharger to even come close to the M3's time.

posted by  Mbanks21

AB99....i totally agree with that... :thumbs:
y'all have really good arguments...BUT...i think the beamerz have to win coz they arejust an all round perfect car...great performance...whatever the model...whereas with mercz...well to get the luxury you have to get the more expensive models...the basic models are total s***...even though i have a bmw, i aint biased coz i am getting a merc soon too...soz i can't help myself!!

posted by  RoxAz

:!: :!: M E R C E D E S baby :!: :!:

Mercedes CLK 430 <~~~~my favorite

posted by  JettaChiC20

fuck bms and mercedes .... gimme vinny babyy ... roarrrr ... :D

posted by  RoxAz

yeah i would like that too 8)

posted by  JettaChiC20

as hard a desision as this is... BEAMER

posted by  mazda6man

i don't know about you, but if i ever had the choice. . .
i'd choose a CL55 AMG over any top-model BMW

posted by  $eRb

Audi Please

posted by  57ock

BMW all the way BUT i love the merc. c class they are beautiful cars but u have to love the forever beauty of a BMW the power the finess the grace. NOt to mention the fact that there quick (most anyway)

posted by  beemerguy

mercedes are faster more luxuriouse and safer. they are even coming out if not already a twin turbo v12....

posted by  Arthur

Ok, first off I would like to say that most of you most likely have not driven either brand of car, thus you are instantly disqualified from being anything more than an armchair critic/loyalist. However, being a BMW owner and enthusiast, as well as having friends and relatives who own both BMWs and Benzes, I will offer my two cents. I own a 1990 325i, and it has been absolutely reliable, even through massive amounts of stress. Not only that, but I can hang the tail out whenever, wherever and not have to worry about it biting back. The 5-speed is still slick and upgrades are relatively cheap. As for my grandfather's C230, haha. It is pretty quick, but was only available with a soft suspension and an auto. My uncle used to have a C320 Sport, but quickly tired of it after multiple instances of poor reliability and less-than-inspiring handling. So he bought a 540i Sport and is VERY happy with it. Oh, and he bought my aunt a 328i Sport 5-speed and she is also extremely happy. My other uncle traded a C320 for a 330i Sport. BMWs tend to be sportier and a bit more loved. I know I will not stray from the marque.

posted by  iamane30m20nut

Agreed- wheres me RS6? S4? and the new A8 is damn fine

posted by  SuperJew

dont forget the m3 gt that was banned cause it cleaned house everytime. the z8 wasnt mentioned either. nor was the 850cia i think both have very nice cars. and some classes may have better cars than others but over all i think it comes down to personal preferance. i personaly prefer the "BIMMER" (not beamer). i am a major BIMMER enthusiest. but i think that merc. is a major competetor and niether of the two companies should slack off or the other will be ther to pass it up. just my 2 cents.

posted by  DTMBaller

Well...

I used to own a 745i. It developed a lot of problems (namely with the fuel system). God rid of that, bought a S500. I like them both, but the BMW just felt quicker (because it was). The Benz is more comfortable.

As someone who used to work for BMW, this is a hard question. The AMG Mercedes will always have more power, because they use turbos and supers. BMW believes in pure engine performance.

They are both wonderful. Right now, Benz has the edge in performance sports cars, but BMW makes better sedans and coupes. Soon, with the new 6 series, that may change. We shall see.

posted by  TM875

When it comes to the more expensive models, I like the S500 (it ain't no thing without them spinning dubs though 8)). As for a lower priced car, I'd go for a 328i four-door automatic.
In a nutshell, I prefer the S class to the 7 series and the 3 series to the C and E class.

posted by  snoopewite

I like Mercedes more...mostly on the fact that my dad owned a 2002 S600 and now a 2003 S600.

posted by  EuropeanCarGuy

I'd just like to add that my 1988 528e 5 speed...stock Bimmer just recently kept up with a brand new c230 kompressor...I had it pegged...about 140mph+

I could not pass as my old car doesn't have the extra umph...but he couldn't get away either...

I laughed my a$$ off!!

posted by  BavarianWheels

i see all these people saying pure luxury about mercades lol BMW are just as luxurious as mercades plus BMW's out handle out perform and out do mercades all together i would rather take a M series over a AMG any day they are just better if you are reading this and you disagree you have enternet so look up track results about the M series vs the AMG class

posted by  BAVARIANM5WORKS

i wonder that the enternet is....
:screwy:

posted by  SuperJew

You make such a convincing argument.. For stricter academic standards in our public schools. By the way, I don't have "enternet", I think I've got exitnet.

posted by  vwhobo

I am split on this one, i love the M cars, but the Chris bangle designs are a bit crass, and the new Mercedes seem cheap to me (sound stupid, but they do) the only Merc i really like is the S-class! so actually i wqould say that i would prefer to go somewhere else for a car!

posted by  Flying_Dane

SORRY that i spelled somthing wrong it wont happen again it is internet not enternet i dont know what i was thinking because i should check everything twice to please people that i dont even know

ps: BMW is better

posted by  BAVARIANM5WORKS

you spelled "something" wrong. :orglaugh:

im just messin with you man. yes, BMW is better.

posted by  Satty101

Satty101 wrote : -
"you spelled "something" wrong. :orglaugh:"

Yeah he did :roll:
Apart from spelling and punctuation, BAVARIANM5W:tard:RKS also needs to check his grammar.
Have you noticed that he doesn’t normally start his sentences with capital letters either?

posted by  snoopewite

lol thats just the thing i dont really care i dont feel like taking the time to type everything out correctly cuz i dont care so get over it i hope i misspelled somthing wrong this time cuz it is funny to see people fuss over this when we are typing about car forums not correcting each other

posted by  BAVARIANM5WORKS

The point is, fellow Bavarian, take pride in your abilities. Don't lose your first impression chance. You only get one.
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posted by  BavarianWheels

And not only that, but it also makes for a more intelligent looking forum. One were people will say, hey, that's a nice and intelligent forum. Maybe they can help me with my problems. Rather than wow, that forum looks really stupid with all those people typing "because" like "cuz" and other stupid mistakes like that when it doesn't take long at all to type it correctly. So it just makes the forum look better when you're not an ignorant retard.

posted by  Satty101

.
::Whispers:: It's Intelligent...not Intelegent... :doh:

posted by  BavarianWheels

Why whatever are you talking about? lol! :clap:

posted by  Satty101

i have a feeling bavarianm5works has already blown his first impression wide open

posted by  SuperJew

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Agreed. But still repairable if he so desires. Chances are his desires are as he has claimed. "I don't care."

And as vwhobo has alluded to, they don't understand why they don't get the jobs... :screwy:
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posted by  BavarianWheels

yeah...i have a bad feeling about this generation i am a part of (13-18) because of all this drugs and mainly "ghetto-ism", which only makes people look more stupid. however this makes it better for us smart people because then there will be more jobs, and people will be paying more because theres less people than now.

posted by  SuperJew

The BMW has nothing compared to the Mercedes SLR it will wast the BMW
http://www.mcarsweb.com/mercedes/slr.jpg

posted by  Car Guy

uhm, ok. This is 2 subjects I've seen you get back on topic. I don't know whether to tell you thanks or stop chnging the subject back to what this thread was originally made for.

posted by  Satty101

If you are the MBZ enthusiast that you seem to be, I'd think about some typing lessons or better...some spelling lessons.

BTW...As I've already mentioned, the MBZ does have more HP...Not a whole lot...and quite a bit more out of pocket compared to the M5.

What MBZ did for a two door coupe, BMW did on a 4 door sedan.

Check out the numbers and make the claim once more. :banghead: :screwy:
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posted by  BavarianWheels

BMW is not necessarily quicker, or for that matter better better. In terms of engine design, the two Kraut companies make them very similar in the S-class and 7-series. The difference? Mercedes came up with the technology four years before BMW did (1999 v. 2003). Then compare the C32 to the M3. The C32 will smoke it, hands down. The M3 isn;t even second, the Audi S4 with it's 340 horse V8 will smoke it too. The 493 HP E55 will trump the M5, hands down. The only hands down BMW winners are the 7-series and X5, both are new models compared to their MBz counterparts (the X5 barely). Wait until the next wave of Mercedes redesigns and the S-class will be the true winner.

I'd also like to add, before the avalanche of criticism falls in, that each car is differnet. But when I checked and compared my C/D, M/T, R&T, and Automobile mags, I took the averages and the Mbz won overall.

posted by  PorscheMoBscene

After reading this thread I cant help but notice that most people are saying that either BMW or Merc are better than one another in terms of performance and/or reliability, now that might be the case...but these cars are so similar (ie; C230 - 323i or AMG - M-Series) in characteristics and spec that the difference is marginal surely? as these cars are built to rival each other! but if I had to chose, I'd go for BMW as they know how to build a manual transmission (although Merc are getting it sorted....supposedly lol). :thumbs:

posted by  Cliffy

i like the M5 better, its combines good performance and is visually attractive. I hate Mercedes designs, they are so ugly :wink2:

posted by  importluva

If you have ever driven a BMW you would know that even though they dont have a huge amount of horsepower they still feel like they have more than they actually put out, plus you cant match BMW's handling.

posted by  BAVARIANM5WORKS

If you think a BMW has the best handling, you have never driven anything EXCEPT a BMW.

The old AE86 Corolla has better handling than most BMW's out nowadays.

posted by  Vassar

yes i have driven other things besides BMW's but can you name a company that makes all their stock cars with performance handling (all not just there racing series like M, AMG, Type r and so on)

posted by  BAVARIANM5WORKS

I dont care what anyone really thinks, I would still take a BMW over any mercades. They still out handle a mercades any day and when it comes down to it the handling is the most important thing you need to have complete control over your car, without control you cant really enjoy the power that mercades puts out. Im not saying that mercades have bad handling because i have been very impressed in driving them, but over all i think that BMW comes out on top.

posted by  BAVARIANM5WORKS

Hey CarGuy, I love how you say that the SLR trounces all other BMW's. Are you forgetting about a little car called the McLaren F1 with the 6.0L BMW engine. BMW is far superior to any Mercedes: better handling, quicker, better styling(they need to work out that Chris Bangle thing) and more reliable. The M series cars are pure performance and need turbos and superchargers to move them. My dad used to own a 5 series BMW and the car lasted to 240,000 miles with no problems. It was very fast and easily beat Mercs.

posted by  97BLAZER

Did it look like the one in my sig?
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posted by  BavarianWheels

No it was a 1992 525i

posted by  97BLAZER

Wow...my 1988 e28 barely broke the 200k marker...
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posted by  BavarianWheels

I was just wondering if anyone has had good or bad expirences buying cars off ebay like me?
I got the Audi A6 2000 before Xmas and I'm very satisfied with my new toy.
It's pretty much flawless inside and outside from what i can tell
Has anyone or does anyone know someone who bought a car on ebay also?
>link infected with trojan horse<

posted by  audia6fan

Your right mercades had to supercharge their car to make it .3 seconds faster!!!!! the M5 is not super or turbo charged, mercades is not ahead in performance if you ask me.

posted by  BAVARIANM5WORKS

ummm actually no, i haven't heard of a SLK 55 AMG... THINK, TYPE, SUBMIT... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

I really, REALLY hate to agree with Aten, but uhmmm...

Mecedes SLK55 AMG
http://www.supercars.de/data/_cboa/98/942/480/98942849.jpg
http://www.supercars.de/data/_cboa/98/942/480/98942854.jpg

Think, type, submit.

posted by  vwhobo

A production car?

I actually in all honesty have never seen that one before, I only knew the current SLK AMG model, 3.2 litre, 352 bhp and 0-60 in 5.2... thought, typed, submitted.. :laughing: :thumbs:

Also, i quote:

The new SLK 55 AMG now sets a new benchmark in terms of power (265 kW/360 hp), torque (510 newton metres) and acceleration (0-100 km/h: 4.9 seconds).

The BMW M3 does 0- 60 in 4.9 secs, using only a 3.2 litre engine and it's naturally aspirated..

posted by  R34RB30DETTV

The MBs have the price and now the performance (SLR McLaren) but it all comes down to handling...they are different I have heard...you like one or the other...simple as that!

posted by  StiMan

Okay. I am a bimmer man. I drive a '89 325is with 200k miles on my machine. I just ran a 15.4 sec 1/4 mile stock on falken azenis tires. They are supposed to run 15.7 sec stock off the lot. I know of no other car manufacterer that can produce such a fine machine. Most vehicles are about dead at 200k miles while my bmw is just breaking in.

posted by  kwaliph

That's great! The 850CSi (correct me if I'm wrong) was introduced in '91 and was the continuation of the M1(the car made to beat porsche in the late '70s). The 850CSi is packing a twin turbo 5.0l v-12. :laughing:

posted by  kwaliph

Just like my Dads Saab 9000 aero :wink2:

posted by  Car Nirvana

I'm not sure if some of you have noticed, but BMW is starting to design cars that keep getting uglier. It started with the 7-Series (althought not too bad looking.) then the new 5-Series with its retarded-looking rear end, and now the X3 which showed how obscure BMW's styling department has become. The Z4 was the only good-looking "futuristic" BMW design.

I would definitely choose a Mercedes over a BMW, not only because of its sleek and sexy design, but because it is the top name in quality and luxury and they make a variety of exciting and interesting cars and SUV's.

BMW is not the "Ultimate Driving Machine" if you compare it with Mercedes, but still a worthy competitor, since so many people enjoy driving BMW's...

posted by  moostang104314

its keith's fault!

posted by  cinqyg

Come on ppl.Merc have to supercharge to get damn power.Ok they may have huge amounts of power and tourqe.Don't talk crap about merc being better than bmw merc still use SOHC and auto transmissions.The fact that bmw can get 252kw from a 3.2l N/A 6 is AMAZING no supercharges or crap like that.
Sorry but The M division ripps merc a new assshole.If AMG didnt drop in supercharges they would not move.

BMW & M Division can pull everybit of power out from these N/A engines while MERC & AMG use V8s with supercharges. Speaks for its self.
Not to mention that Mercs are heavy as tanks :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu:

posted by  john

Remember that thing called the Mclaren F1 i wonder who made the engine for that??? THATS RIGHT BMW DID nearly 10 years old and mercs FI engines still got nothing on that. Imagine what bmw could do now if they wanted.Merc should not fuk with BMW cause BMW can rip them a new assshole. :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu:

posted by  john

Off the :smoke: you clown :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu:

posted by  john

when it comes to power, BMW's probably better...they have the M3, M5 (500 HP V10!!!), and a few nice sports cars like the 6 series and Z4 that have descent engines

posted by  mark_X

To John the Dumbass:
1) When replying to a thread, create one post
2) Dont use the Fu smily unless it is needed
3) Dont show your opinions so much... they are ignorant if you dont make them in a controlled manner that displays a information-backed statement.
THINK. TYPE. SUBMIT.

... Dumbass...

posted by  StiMan

StiMan, you forgot this dumbass. "Uh duh BMW's [probably] better". Well let me tell you something needledick... In a finite world; probably is "probably" wrong. So to further clarify your idiotic remarks, you are quoting unoffical horsepower numbers from an M5 thats is yet to exist. Sure we know its there, but its not out just yet. Also I'd like inform you that the Mercedes SL 65 AMG is the most powerful roadster in the market with a whopping +6ooRWHP and +7oo Ft-Lb.

Yes, needledick thats stock. When BMW produces a car that goes toe to toe with Ferrari 575M's,Porshe GT's, and Aston Martin Vanquish's. Then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt when you say "BMW's are probably better". Until then you can go piss up a rope or crawl back into that hole you call home n die. Do both if you wish I could really care less.

Got something to say? How about a nice cup of shut the f*ck up; think before you speak.

posted by  DSMer

Thanks redneck :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu:

posted by  john

yes i do have something 2 say...

ur right about the SL 65 AMG those are faster than M5s and mb also has the SLR mclaren with the 600 hp V8 (0-60 mph in 3 seconds) coming out soon....

the M5 is indeed fast for a sedan but mb has the E55 AMG against it....


and for SUVs, bmw only has the x3 and x5 that arer excessively small while mb has the ml350 (will be redesigned next year) , g-class, and supposedly a new r-class....


however the M5 does have official numbers, and according to some car magazines, consumerguides, etc, the m5 does actually have a 500 hp V10....

but there's no need to tell me that i should shut up about bmw im convinced now

posted by  mark_X

Look people. You will never find an answer to this type of arguement. There are way too many loyal fanboys to each side. However, as the facts prove, Mercedes-Benz make faster cars because they have the AMG supercharged engines, and are not as heavy as BMWs are. The BMW 7 series has lots of power, but due to its enormous weight(heavier than the X5) it is slower than the Mercedes-Benz counterpart. Also if BMW turbocharged and supercharged their engines, then we could probably see more BMWs that can compare with Porche and Ferrari. But its not about the what ifs, its about the facts. And right now, the facts point toward Mercedes-Benz.
:2cents:

posted by  SNiPeRViRuS

snipervirus is right, the the facts support mercedes...

posted by  mark_X

well, if you mean in terms of power - then yes, the facts favor M-B. but in terms of driver enjoyability and the like, it's up to each driver.

and you're right - people will favor one over the other for many different reasons. I prefer the Mercedes' because they have more power, and i prefer brute power over high-revviness that BMW uses. that's another thing when you compare the two - in the new M5 for example, yah, it makes 500hp. but it makes a measly 300 something foot-pounds of torque. and that 500hp is reached at a little over 6000 RPM. whereas in the Mercedes CL/SL/S 65 engine produces its torqu within 2-4 thousand RPM. I prefer the low-RPM power when compared to the high revving power. someone else might prefer the high-revving, and that's A-OK with me.

posted by  SuperJew

To John: Seeing as though I do live in Texas, the average dumbass such as yourself would think that I am a redneck. Then one must look at the fact that I live in Dallas. Then recollect that Dallas is a very large city. Hate to break it to you boys, but I dont have a cow, live on a ranch, feed the hogs every day, shoot black people, have a shotgun next to my bed, or any of that crazy mumbo jumbo. I am just a regular American who happens to have a (slight) Texan Accent, and live in Texas, and have a slight wanting to reinstate the Republic of Texas (Lol...). Sorry John, but I dont swing that way. :thumbs: :2cents:

....Dumbass...

posted by  StiMan

Haha, its a shame you did'nt know all of that before you opend your mouth and attempted to reproduce intelligible input. Also for a further reference, if "SOME" magazines have the numbers, then its not official. Until BMW releases a full spec sheet, photos, and dyno numbers of their car; its not official iregardless to whatever magazine says otherwise.

So until BMW officially says that; its not official. Damn I thought you actually had something relevant to say. Don't argue with me. You're a dumbass, I know it, you know, just accept it n move on.

posted by  DSMer

There seem to be multiple dumbasses on this thread... How strange.. ?

posted by  StiMan

I just have one question. Stupid as it might be, I am still going to ask. Is high horsepower with high RPM better in terms of speed, or is High horsepower with low RPM better? What about Toruque? And what do you mean by high-revving? Sorry, its just I am am not good with these "terms".

posted by  SNiPeRViRuS

okay...to answer you first question - its all up to the driver. thats why there are so many different cars out there - why would the M5 (high HP, high RPM) still be out when there's the Mercedes AMG line (high hp, low RPM)? its all about driver preference

and high-revving is really just when an engine can go at high RPMs in normal driving.

posted by  SuperJew

That information is totally incorrect. BMW is the "weight saver". BMW produces the lightest cars in its class. Mercedes produces one of the heaviest. Mercedes packs its cars full of electronics and other weight-adding things. I can't think of ONE Mercedes Benz that comes close to being the lightest in its class. You ought to do your research boy.

ALL of the BMW "M" cars have a lower weight than its Mercedes "AMG" competitor.

BMW M3
Weight: 3460 lbs
Horsepower: 333
0-60: 4.7 seconds

Mercedes-Benz C 32 AMG
Weight: 3540 lbs
Horsepower: 354
0-60: 5.2 seconds



2005 BMW M5
Weight: 3883 lbs
Horsepower: 507
0-60: ?

Mercedes-Benz E 55 AMG
Weight: 4237 lbs
Horsepower: 469 (*lots of torque though*)
0-60: 4.3 seconds



Mercedes are known for being overweight. That's their achilles heal. BMW's are known for being lightweight and sporty, some consider the harshness that comes along with BMW sport the weakness of BMW cars. The only BMW that might weigh more than a Mercedes of equal class is the 7-series. But that's a big-ass luxury car where "sportiness" isn't a big factor.


I prefer BMW because BMW's are more of a driver's car. Mercedes has way too many computers adding input (BMW is beginning to go the "computer route" also). BMW's generally handle better also.



Snipervirus, you've got the wrong idea on "BMW" and "Mercedes".

posted by  What

that's actually now the C55 AMG - Mercedes discontinued the C32 this year.

it now has 362 hp and weighs 3605 pounds. 0-60 time is reduced to 4.7 seconds.

and are the BMW M3 and the C32 even comparible? like...the M3 is a 2-door sports coupe, where the C55 is a 4-door speed/luxury sedan.

posted by  SuperJew

So rpm doesnt really have much impact on speed at all? Cool.

What,

I admit that what I wrote wasnt stated correctly. I meant to say that the 7 series which although is one of the luxury cars, is also one of the most powerful cars too(BMW CAR THAT IS). It just is held back by its enourmous weight. It is true that the AMGs are heavier but I dont have the wrong idea. I said it is all up to the driver. AMG is just faster right now.

posted by  SNiPeRViRuS

Stop before you continue. Your question was "Are higher RPM's and high HP better in terms of speed?"

Well yes and no. While alot of high speed cars generally revolutionate in excess of 10K RPM's, i.e.: Indy cars, Mazda Cup series cars, Motorcycles, touring cars, super cars, etc. You don't always need a higher maximum RPM to go faster. Of course common sense tells us the more HP you have, theoretically if your car stays the same weight, the faster your car will be.

It really depends on the engine and car. I have noticed, somone please correct me if I'm wrong, that lower RPM cars generally produce more torque than higher a RPM car will. Wich leads me to believe that the option of a higher RPM or lower depends solely on the car in wich the engine is going in

So Yes and No Sniper. It may be easier to make a higher revving car go faster, but that does not mean that higher revolutions = speed.

posted by  DSMer

Ok, so it really depends on the car itself then. Thankyou for clarifying that up for me.

posted by  SNiPeRViRuS

well, i wuz just saying what i learned...(which in everyone's view, now including mine, is nothing :laughing: )

and i wont argue with u..

and the info i gave made me look like a dumbass, which means ur correct again...after all, there's gotta be someone here who could hate me more, eh?

"There seems to be multiple dumbasses in this thread"

-Stiman

hey, at least im not alone

posted by  mark_X

No, it isn't.

posted by  What

Why? Or are you just ryding the scrotum wich is attached to BMW? Give us some facts and evidence of why AMG models are not faster than the BMW M3 and late M5.

Oh take your time because there will be plenty enough AMG's. All the way from the C32AMG to the SL65 AMG, please What tell us.

posted by  DSMer

There was no need to talk so harsh.

Yes, there exist AMG vehicles that are faster than the M3 and M5. But those AMG vehicles are not in the same category as the M3 and M5. The AMG vehicles that are in the same category as the M3 and M5 are slightly slower.

Also, there isn't an AMG on Earth that can out-handle an M3.

posted by  What

Which is your opinion. People have different opinions when it comes to handling. And look closely at my statement. I said AMG was faster. I didnt say that all AMGs are faster than all BMWs. It doesnt matter that M3 and M5 are faster than their counter parts. You said that AMG isnt faster which is incorect. I wasnt comparing, just stating a known fact.

posted by  SNiPeRViRuS

Ain't much opinion in skidpad and slalom numbers. I believe it was Car and Driver who once said that the M3 was the best handling car EVER. Even moms know M' cars handle better than AMGs.

posted by  What

Just so you know, the BMW M3 CSL lapped the Nürburgring test track 2 seconds faster than Mercedes fastest car ever, the Mercedes SLR McLaren.

posted by  What

Where is this information located?
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posted by  BavarianWheels

A german magazine called "Sport Auto".
Here is a complete list of the times.

Issue / Car / - Time (min)

03/1997 BMW M3 SMG E36 - 8:35
04/1997 Porsche Boxster - 8:54
05/1997 AMG Mercedes SLK 230 Kompressor - 9:07
06/1997 Ferrari F355 - 8:18
07/1997 Chevrolet Corvette C5 - 8:40
08/1997 Honda NSX - 8:38
09/1997 BMW M Roadster - 8:32
10/1997 Chrysler Viper GTS - 8:10
11/1997 AC Schnitzer BMW CLS III - 8:16
12/1997 Lamborghini Diablo SV - 8:09
01/1998 Porsche 996 991 Carrera - 8:17
03/1998 Mercedes-Benz C43 AMG - 8:51
04/1998 Alpina B10 3.2 - 8:50
05/1998 Lotec Porsche 911 Turbo - 7:57
06/1998 Ferrari 550 Maranello - 8:07
07/1998 Jaguar XKR Coupé - 8:49
08/1998 Audi S4 - 8:42
09/1998 Mercedes CLK 430 - 8:52
10/1998 BMW M Coupé - 8:22
11/1998 Audi TT 1.8 T quattro - 8:49
12/1998 Brabus Mercdes CLK 5.8 - 8:38
02/1999 Porsche 911 GT3 Cup - 7:49
03/1999 BMW M5 E39 - 8:28
04/1999 Callaway C12 Coupé - 8:25
05/1999 Lotus Esprit Sport 350 - 8:13
06/1999 Audi S3 - 8:41
07/1999 BMW Alpina B3 3.3 - 8:36
08/1999 Porsche 911 GT3 - 8:03
09/1999 Aston Martin DB7 Vantage - 8:41
10/1999 Ferrari 360 Modena - 8:09
11/1999 Mitsubishi Carisma GT EVO VI - 8:25
12/1999 Porsche Boxster S - 8:32
01/2000 Honda S 2000 - 8:39
03/2000 Subaru Impreza GT Turbo - 8:37
04/2000 Volkswagen Golf V6 4motion - 9:09
05/2000 Mercedes CLK 55 AMG - 8:29
06/2000 Porsche 996 911 turbo - 7:56
07/2000 Lamborghini Diablo GT - 8:04
08/2000 BMW Z8 - 8:18
09/2000 Maserati 3200 GT - 8:37
10/2000 Audi RS4 - 8:25
11/2000 Lotus Exige - 8:52
12/2000 BMW M3 E46 - 8:22
02/2001 Porsche 996 Carrera 4 - 8:23
03/2001 Donkervoort D8 180R - 8:10
04/2001 BMW Z3 Coupé 3.0i - 8:34
05/2001 Mercedes SLK 32 AMG - 8:26
06/2001 Porsche 996 GT2 - 7:46
07/2001 Renault Clio Sport V6 - 8:49
08/2001 Tech-Art Prosche GT street - 7:43
09/2001 Mercedes C32 AMG - 8:37
10/2001 Porsche 996 911 Carrera (facelift) - 8:17
11/2001 Honda Civic Type-R - 8:47
12/2001 Mercedes SL 500 - 8:38
01/2002 Volkswagen Golf GTI - 8:54
02/2002 Brabus Mercedes C V8 Coupé - 8:35
04/2002 Mercedes SL 55 AMG - 8:12
05/2002 Alfa Romeo 156 GTA - 8:51
06/2002 Lamborghini Murciélago - 7:50
07/2002 Pagani Zonda S - 7:44
08/2002 Honda NSX-R - 8:09
09/2002 Audi RS6 - 8:20
10/2002 Maserati Coupé Cambiocorsa - 8:30
11/2002 Mitsubishi Carisma GT EVO VII - 8:25
12/2002 Ferrari 575M Maranello - 8:05
01/2003 Aston Martin V12 Vanquish - 8:17
02/2003 Volkswagen Golf R32 - 8:37
03/2003 Porsche Boxster (facelift) - 8:36
04/2003 Morgan Aero 8 - 8:39
05/2003 BMW Z4 3.0 SMG - 8:32
06/2003 Porsche 996 GT3 (facelift) - 7:54
07/2003 Aston Martin DB7 GT - 8:23
08/2003 BMW M3 CSL - 7:50
09/2003 Chevrolet Corvette C5 Com. Edition - 8:18
10/2003 Nissan 350Z - 8:26
11/2003 Audi S4 Avant - 8:29
12/2003 Lamborghini Gallardo - 7:52
01/2004 Porsche Carrera GT - 7:40 (wet track, later 7:32.44)
02/2004 Ferrari Challenge Stradale - 7:56
03/2004 Porsche 911 GT3 RS - 7:47
04/2004 Opel Speedster Turbo - 8:34
05/2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STi - 8:24
06/2004 Mercedes SLR McLaren - 7:52
07/2004 Mercedes C55 AMG - 8:22
08/2004 Lotus Exige - 8:32
09/2004 Mini Cooper S Works - 8:55
10/2004 Dodge Viper SRT/10 - 8:13
11/2004 Aston Martin DB9 - 8:16
12/2004 BMW M5 E60 - 8:13

posted by  What

Exactly!! You just proved my point. Some people prefer a riskier drive. Those are the ones who like to drive recklessly, and believe me there are a lot of those people in the world.

posted by  SNiPeRViRuS

Thx.
.
.

posted by  BavarianWheels

Not harsh, just making sure you're not fanboying your M3's. You seemed to have a hard time believing that a car made by America could beat it. So I was just checking.

But the point of comparing one car make to the other, is not to match up each model. The fact that Mercedes offers more performance models than BMW does, is a consideration to it being the greater. However, I'm not fan of AMG's. They cost to much, they weigh too much, they feel like boats when you drive them, and the gearboxes suck.

What, we all know that BMW produces the better made car. But the point is we need to know why. I can't just give that opinion without facts. Thats all I was looking for. Thank you.

posted by  DSMer

"What"?

I don't understand "your point". Where did "riskier drive" and "reckless driving" come into play?

posted by  What

Hey! I read some messages here on the board, stating the Mercedes has a beter sport performance. They sad something about S600, 745.... Than the SL 65 comparing witht he M bMW...There no ///M series that is in the same clase AS sl 65. THE ONLY ONE EVER WAS : m8. iT HAD 666HP/. )-6-60
IN 3.25 SEC,If you will compare the result: sSL 65 is slower.
I have a 99 BMW 740 IL. I modified it and made the closest thing to "never made" M7. My car has 400HP and 425 lbs of torgue. -0-60 in 4.25/4.5 sec(Auto stick/auto)!!! I raced with s55 & even e55(which is a lot lighter than my car) and I won. And they were 2-3 years newer.
You may say: you modified the car : All I did is added the performance part which any ///M or any AMG mercedes like the s55 has: Performance Air intake, Alpina (equals to AMG performance)software, electrical compressor(5 PSI pressure)(AMG class has the one that get its power from the engine block, a lot more powerfull than mine :15-21 PSI)
, Air tempreature regulator perfomance module and custom exhaust with the extra high flow converters and REMUS "twin turbo"mufflers. Even stock my car vas faster than e 500, s430 or s500. The size oif the engine of my car is 4.4 L! Not 5.5,or 5!!! M5 has the 5.0 liter and it is officially the fastest and quickest stock sedan on the planet!!! It doesnt have any compressors and supercharges. Big AMG(E-55 S55) have them!
Mercedes is the luxury car, BMW is the sport/luxury car. BMW handles and takes turns a lot better than any mercedes. My former boss has a CL600 2002:140,000$ car. I drove it a lot of times, and I will say that my car, that was 89,000$ brand new 5 years ago, handles and takes turns a lot better! I can take a sharp turm at the speed of 80-90 mph. I drove that mercedes and I had to slow down to 60 pph to safely take that same turn!
If someone disagrees with me: Please write me: [email]luckyangeln1@yahoo.com
Sincerely;
Lex

posted by  LuckyAngelLex

........ :orglaugh: :clap: thanks, i needed to laugh

posted by  SNiPeRViRuS

What's so f*ckin funny? The guy's right.

posted by  Steve Stifler

I doubt that car is really his.

posted by  StiMan

yup, too easy to come onto an online forum and lie.

man, porsche really destroyed everyone on those track times. I wanna see an Enzo test run on it though. :drool:

posted by  Godlaus

have you guys heard of the McLaren F1? compare it to the SLR McLaren :smoke:

posted by  BMW M6

Ok? Whats your point? :screwy:

posted by  StiMan

Whats yours for saying "whats your point?" ? :screwy:

posted by  CarEXPERT

What the hell? I wasnt even talking to you. I didnt understand why BMW M6 was bringing up the McLaren F1. :screwy: :banghead: :thumbs:

posted by  StiMan

Why you say yo not taking to me but you jus talk to me right now you shit pants he was bringing up the mclaren f1 because it is the fastest car in the whole world because it has almost 1000 horsepower and toque to and obviously you didnt know about this and the mecades mclarin is also fast but not compared to a f1 if you know what i mea by hosepower.

posted by  CarEXPERT

The Ameritech (sp?) McLaren F1 has only 627 hp. The Ferrari Enzo has 650 hp. Is that close to 1000 hp? No. THINK. TYPE. SUBMIT. :banghead:

posted by  StiMan

try 627 horsepower and 479 lb-ft of TORQUE. dumbass.

http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/9931/dfan/f1specs.html

posted by  SuperJew

This is a BMW VS Mercedes thread so he brought up the McLaren F1(powered by a BMW M V-12) vs. a Mercedes SLR Mclaren

posted by  Zalight

Do you guys have any common sense? I think not because if you cant see I was just joking around you really have no commoon sense. Read that posts again and see if it makes any single sense. NO it doesnt because I made it so it doesnt make sense. The only 1000+ hp stock car I can think of is the ford GT90.

posted by  CarEXPERT

GT90, or atleast the only one I know of called that, was a 1995 car show concept that had 720 hp from the V-12. Thats still no where near 1000 hp. The only car I have ever heard of having that much stock Hp was the Bugatti Veyron, but I think they will tone it down before production.

posted by  StiMan

simply, what`s the expensiest BMW, a weak 760 li, and Mercedes, try the sl600, cl600, sl65 amg, cl65 amg, s65 amg, SLR mclaren and they could give you an answer

posted by  e 55 amg

Iono I always thought the M-Series could competivley kill just about any comparable Mercedes. Then again I am still looking for the most "expensiest" BMW. The Corvette C6 cost about 50K and there is'nt a car within a 10K range of it that can outperform it or come even close to its standards for that price. So as you can see price is merely a number, performance speaks for itself...

You show me a comparable Mercedes that can beat any of the newer M-Series and I'll show you someone thats full of shit.....

posted by  DSMer

BMW definately makes the better "real world" models. The ones you actually encounter on the street day to day. Mercedes makes the better high end models. So far BMW hasn't been serious about competing there.

How the cars you come across on the street compare:

Entry Level Luxury Sport Sedans:

BMW 330i
225hp
0-60: 6.1
1/4: 14.7@96.3mph
60-0: 129ft.
Slalom: 65.4mph
$39,519

Mercedes C320 Sport
215hp
0-60: 6.9
1/4: 15.2@91.7mph
60-0: 123ft.
Slalom: 64.0mph
$44,949

Entry Level Performance Cars:

BMW M3 SMG
333hp
0-60: 5.0
1/4: 13.5@105.8mph
60-0: 112ft.
Slalom: 68.3mph
$55,815

C55 AMG 2005
362hp
0-60: 4.9
1/4: 13.2@107.3mph
60-0: 116ft.
Slalom: 67.5mph
$54,620

Mid-size Luxury Sport Sedans:

BMW 530i 2004
225hp
0-60: 7.4
1/4: 15.5@90.4mph
60-0: 115ft.
Slalom: 63.2mph
$45,000

Mercedes E320
221hp
0-60: 7.4
1/4: 15.8@88.6mph
60-0: 124ft.
Slalom: 64.0mph
$50,360

BMW 545i 2004
325hp
0-60: 5.4
1/4: 13.7@102.1mph
60-0: 121ft.
Slalom: 66.0mph
$62,620

Mercedes E500
302hp
0-60: 5.9
1/4: 14.4@98.8mph
60-0: 122ft.
Slalom: 64.0mph
$62,336

Mid-size Luxury Performance Sedans:

BMW M5
394hp
0-60: 4.8
1/4: 13.3@108.5mph
60-0: 116ft.
Slalom: 66.4mph
$72,645

Mercedes E55 AMG 2003
469hp
0-60: 4.2
1/4: 12.4@116.2mph
60-0: 118ft.
Slalom: 66.5mph
$76,720

Premium Luxury Sedans:

BMW 745i Sport 2004
325hp
0-60: 6.1
1/4: 14.3@97.8mph
60-0: 111ft.
Slalom: 66.1mph
$79,945

Mercedes S430 2004
275hp
0-60: 6.8
1/4: 15.1@94.0mph
60-0: 115ft.
Slalom: 65.4mph
$80,590

Roadsters:

BMW Z4 3.0i 2004
225hp
0-60: 5.7
1/4: 14.2@97.8mph
60-0: 110ft.
Slalom: 69.6mph
$47,795

Mercedes SLK350 2005
268hp
0-60: 5.4
1/4: 13.6@103.3mph
60-0: 112ft.
Slalom: 67.7mph
$53,325

Other things to consider:
-Mercedes prices their cars just a bit higher than BMW
-Mercedes on average have a higher level of quality in their interior
-BMW on average has better reliability than Mercedes (especially when it comes to electrical elements)

Yes, Mercedes makes some absolutely amazing high end AMG models well in excess of $100K, but the number of times you will actually come in contact with one are very few and far in between (and the odds that the driver will be "pushing it" even rarer).

posted by  Gothicaleigh

OK.. The Mercedes outperform the BMW by JUST A LITTLE BIT...but how much more does a mercedes cost then a BMW?? with all that extra money your spending ont he mercedes you can buy more performance parts for your BMW. or evne buy ANOTHER BMW

posted by  vuhuynh109

If we are basing this on performance, than the BMW, but if we are talking looks and luxury then definitly Mercedes! :orglaugh:

posted by  jdubya

How can we forget about other tuners. But before I go there.... The fact remains that both companies (BMW and Mercedes) make similar cars. I am lucky enough to have parents that own both types. I just want to say that the two things that hurt mercedes is that they are automatic (anyone who really likes to drive knows that no sports car can be an automatic.....which is why the new M5 is gay), and that they are supercharged. BMW one bad point is that they are becoming more and more ugly. Chris Bangle should be shot. I was a die hard BIMMER fan (dad has a 2003 M5) before Bangle started making cars.

anyways, the fact that BMW makes its cars compete and sometimes beat Mercedes without superchargers says a lot. The reason I make this point is because DINAN actually put a supercharger on an M5 and it has insane numbers. 621 HP and 502 lb/ft torque!!!

http://www.dinanbmw.com/

So the point is that if BMW put superchargers on all it engines they would blow Mercedes out of the water. I mean seriously....can anyone dispute that fact?

posted by  lalaland

The Benz uses smaller displacement and forced induction for numerous reasons. First and foremost fuel economy. The other thing that isn't ever mentioned is the fact that the majority of AMG motors are Hand built and hand balanced and de-tuned for street use. So as for the BMW using superchargers, they aren't built to hold up to the boost.

posted by  MercedesSLS

Why complain about an automatic when most people cant drive a manual trans well enough to even come close to Manufacturers posted numbers? The Benz gets better numbers with an automatic which means most people can drive the car to get the performance.

posted by  MercedesSLS

Ask a mercedes owner what he thinks of BMW and he'll probably scoff at your impudence. :mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

I don't care how luxurious or how fast a car is, if you can't get it in a six-speed, it sucks. Until mercedes gives me some manual transmission options, BMW will always be the ultimate driving experience.
If I was some loaded yuppy who couldn't drive stick, then I would love mercedes.

posted by  Bass Angler

mercedes is the better car. people clame the bmw has all this performance. please, a vette would waste any bmw easy. (i kill them in my viper.) the mercedes is more luxurious and bmw has nothing on the slr. compare the sl 65 to the m5. sl 65- 604 hp 738 torque! 0-60 in 4.1 m5- 500 hp 350 torque 0-60 in 4.5 sec. no contest mercedes wins hands down

posted by  vipervette500

Minus the fact that the SL65 is a roadster... :banghead:
They are in TWO DIFFERENT CLASSES BONEHEAD!

posted by  StiMan

what do ya say about new M5?
5000 cmc and 507 HP almost 100Hp per liter :laughing:

posted by  digit_al3000

Yeah, but the torque is surprisingly low.

500hp 384 lb ft of torque
0-60 in 4.7 seconds (manufacturer est.)
Top Speed: 155 mph
$90,000



Still, a V10 powered M5 is very attractive, but I think the 500hp figure is misleading as there are 400hp cars in it's class that will offer the same overall performance.

Kind of an example of the classic saying that "horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races". Not always true, but works here in that BMW obviously was shooting for that 'magic' 500 horse number so that the uninformed would perceive their car as better than the competition.

That said, I still wouldn't say no to owning one. :hi:

posted by  Gothicaleigh

Granted Mercs have more power but Bimmers are de-tuned to allow the engine to last longer! BMW could no doubt create a car which will leave Mercedes for dead look at the Mclaren F1 road car its a BMW engine and has taken what 20 years for Mecedes to match it!! i know which one is more advanced and which one i would prefer and its built in Bavaria!!! :thumbs:

posted by  *Ben*

BMW
M3
M5
M6

Mercedes
SL65 AMG
E55 AMG
SLR Mclaren
S55 AMG
CL65

For performance, I'll go with mercedes

posted by  Godlaus

I have also heard talk of a CLS 55 AMG.

posted by  StiMan

I am not sating that they are not the quicker car mate! just that they are not built as well as the bavarian manufacturer thats all!! but then again its each to their own thats why this is a forum open to discussion!! :thumbs:

I would still prefer to have the Bimmers though! :wink2:

posted by  *Ben*

Ugh, I forgot to take out your quote, sorry, I wasn't directing my post at you.

posted by  Godlaus

No probs mate! :thumbs:

posted by  *Ben*

BMW all the way :driving:

posted by  M3er

bmw mutha fukca

posted by  google.com

I think MB. :thumbs:

posted by  StiMan

Mercedes definitely does not make better engines than BMW. Mercedes make pretty good engines but all they're doing is putting up high displacements and super charging or turbo charging (s600) their engines. Bmw on the other are all NA engines. when it comes down to NA engines BMW is still one of the best...and in terms of luxury thas a personal thing. in my opinion the way that mercedes have been trying to cut cost on their cars, it makes it really hard to believe mercedes is better than BMWs. the 760 is probably one of the best luxury sedans ever built..the s600 is a sweet ride also but saying mercedes are HELL of alot better cars than bmws is just wrong..

posted by  lilhoopa

Mercedes Benz! I got a c230 Kompressor and id take it any day compared to a M3-5! But i crashed it yesterday..so im desperate :( :( :cussing:

posted by  ali2coolwitu

hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahha......

Im not laughing cause you crashed your car, Im laughing cause you think your kompressor is the shit.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Its not.

posted by  Zalight

http://www.chocolatecityweb.com/arguing.jpg

This is about as pathetic as a threat i was recently part of in a watch forum

"Rolex vs. Omega"
Apples to oranges people......

posted by  bonatto

You know what...I have had a change of heart.

Mercedes can deliver pure performance:
http://home.comcast.net/~acegronski/wsb/media/325146/site1013.jpg

posted by  Zalight

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
So can scania and Peterbilt though....

posted by  bonatto

I bought my Z3 for it's looks, I also think it could beat the equivelent size Merc like the hairdressers SLK :orglaugh:

posted by  DavidM

BMW's are by far much better in every aspect- instead of looking just at max hp which is not very important, as showcased in the lotus elise, why dont we look at other factors such as handling and reliability. Nbody has mentioned that mecedes are at or near the bottom of consumer report's reliability rankings. The Mercedes SLR would be great if it was not required to turn, and the problem here is that most roads and racetracks have turns. Horsepower does not mean shit, the sl65 beats the carrera GT in horsepower, yet the Gt beats the sl65 in every category, except worthlessness.

Come at me with the best youve got you stupid mercedes lovers.

PS: Z3's are also ****ing pussy girls' cars(except the M versions), so you DavidM, you arent allowed to talk.

posted by  Jay-G

Yeah...Z3s are for women and the gays....

M roadsters and coupes, however, are badass.

posted by  Zalight

Mercedes
For: Power, luxurious on some versions

Against: Some roads have turns

posted by  lilhoopa

It says on his sig that it is a M, if I read it correctly.

posted by  StiMan

*BUMP*

BMW still wins :laughing:

posted by  Zalight

Lol. Of course you arent biased or anything. :orglaugh:

posted by  StiMan

5.0-liter V10 power plant as the M5 along with a seven-speed SMG transmission. With 507 horsepower on tap, the M6 should have no problem keeping pace with Mercedes' high-powered CL coupes....
bmw rocks man :thumbs:

posted by  raza_bmwm6

the 6 did a lap(forget where- short track tho) 8 seconds faster than the m5.

posted by  Jay-G

BRABUS :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

posted by  carcrazziecarl

Hamman. Rouge. Reiger.

See I can name off tuner companies also.

posted by  Zalight

Holy shit, like, disregard everything else said, not only on this thread, but in the world, cause you just like, wildcarded us with that comment. I have to like, bow down before the great Mercedes now because of that.

Idiot.

posted by  Mathew

BMW. :thumbs:

posted by  nsupra27

Aint it great how some people revive a thread with the most pointless coments!....Atleast if it was a genuine reasonable comment, we could forgive it :banghead:

posted by  Cliffy

What is it with people dragin up old threads?

posted by  GreekWarrior

Dude thats the new trend now. Everyone's doing it, and your not Kool if you don't know it or do it. So I'll keep it on the DL that you didn't know. And your welcome :cool2:

posted by  Pythias

Even though I write a little late to make sudden change to subject, but as I haven’t been on a forum for a while, as I seen this tempting subject, I had to answer it, even if it won’t be of any help any more. Not much of experience comes from my engineering, because I haven’t finished faculty yet, but this much I know – that if you have intention to compare cars, you must start from basics of comparing which would be comparing the power to weight ratio. If that’s not enough, you can then put price as another factor, then fuel economy and many other undeniable facts, so you can get reliable facts about vehicle. You must pay attention to compare same class of cars. When you do that part, you can discuss about which one is more preferable for your esthetic and acoustic choice, but just plane saying that one car got that speed, while other haven’t – that would be wasting of time. If you have enough courage to come to forum and put your posts about cars, you must at least know to cover your story with facts. This method is common in car buying for huge companies. You must do such calculations, so you can decide which car would be best to buy, especially for the large orders as pickups for postal service or buying tractors for vast agricultural company. On same basis, you can do research for passenger cars.
Idea is given, so that conversation in whole can reach level it deserves. If, however you want to discuss about design and art value of a car, then your opinion counts, otherwise all that counts is pure calculation.

Hello to old friends that know me!

posted by  ngluvakov(euro)

Slight difference in performance is not the basic point coz we dont buy cars for racing purpose, the point is which 1 longer life with less problems, here in gulf countries as hot weather bmw never win, mercedes never suffer from overheat or engine stall, but these repeated problems in bmw and only, 80 of damaged engines here are for bmw althought these cars made for gulf specifications!

zezooo   15 Feb 2012 20:36

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