La dee freakin' da!

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My rant for the day. Anybody who is familiar with me knows just how much I hate political correctness. Well, the other day I recieved my semi-annual letter from ASE with scores from my semi-annual testing. Only this time there was something added to the package, the letter below. After I read it I thought I was gonna puke. It's gone from pre-school all the way to professional certifications... It being the "you're all winners here" mentality. What a crock of shite.

If people really wanted to be winners, they'd study hard enough to pass the tests. You should be proud if you certify, otherwise good try, better luck next time. Next thing you know, every Nextel Cup race will have 43 winners so nobody feels left out. Okay, I'm done now.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/vwhobo/40a78b37.jpg

posted by  vwhobo

i wholeheartedly agree w/ your rant....

posted by  dodger65

Heeeyy you didn't leave :clap:

Yeah, can't agree much with that everybody's a winner stuff too...it's just for those people who see that when they failed, go cry to mommy, and tell her to call the people up, and make them pass...

I didn't understand though...did you pass?

Hopefully this isn't your last post :ohcrap:

posted by  chris_knows

Why wouldn't I pass? I take my continuing education and professional certifications seriously. I don't need a stupid letter to be proud of my accomplishments. Also keep in mind that there are way less than 1,000 techs worldwide that have all of the certs I do.

Damn I'm kewl. :wink2:

EDIT: I meant to add this (http://www.ase.com/Content/NavigationMenu/ASE_Resource_Center1/About_ASE2/ ASE_Scoreboard/ASE_Scoreboard.htm) so you'll have a better idea of the numbers and the certifications available.

posted by  vwhobo

I'm not a mechanic, but are all your certs international? If not, then shouldn't you say there are way less then a 1000 mechanics in North America?

posted by  aerith

ASE is internationally recognised and there are ASE techs worldwide so you do the math. Besides, even if it was only recognised in the state that I live in, there would still be less than 1,000 techs worldwide with my certs. Either way it looks to me like you're more interested in creating a problem where none exists than understanding the point of my original rant.

posted by  vwhobo

I completely agree w/ your rant, hobo. We think everyone should be proud just for trying(no matter how dumb they are), look at how and mighty we are! :roll: That's just horrible. I used to think the ASE was pretty good, and they probably used to be, but now...not

posted by  jedimario

And at the age of 16 you have WHAT experience with ASE? There's nothing wrong with ASE except they made the mistake of including this little letter along with the results. I just really can't wait to hear about your knowledge of the system, how it works and why ASE is no longer any good.

posted by  vwhobo

"If you passed one or more tests, you should be proud. If you didn't, you should be proud that you tried"

Hahahaha anyone can try, that the same sort of thing as "We're all winners!" :laughing:

posted by  GreekWarrior

Maybe it was only supposed to go in with the failed results to try to placate the unsuccessful types ... and you got one by mistake ...... or did you? j/k.

posted by  windsonian

I'm not a problem. Just asking out of curiosity. I don't have much interest in being a mechanic or what it takes to be a mechanic, so i have no idea, and i was just trying to ask a question so i can further my knowledge. Do you have to be so condescending?

posted by  aerith

Did you have to say that ....... ?

Especially after you accused him of being not as rare a breed as he made out. You may not like it, but take what's coming to you like a man.




[EDIT]: ...... Wait for it......

posted by  windsonian

lol. Its true, why ask the question when i already knew the answer. But most of the time he's normally only condescending to people who ask stupid questions. It was a real question, i wasn't doubting his skills. I'm just asking if the certs were internationally accepted; thats all.

posted by  aerith

I think political correctness is bullsh*t. You aren't going to have any drive to do anything better if everyone tells you your doing great for below average performance. In Lyon County,Nevada you can get a 100% on a test without getting any questions right just because you tried. What kind of bullsh*t is that?

posted by  x1/9-rally

Just read your post again ... the phrase "If not, then you shouldn't..." has a fairly strong inference that you are doubting, not simply asking.

That's how it reads to me anyway..... No harm done though (of course I can't answer for the hobo :laughing: ).

posted by  windsonian

Well, im sorry if offended anyone; i didnt mean to. I guess I should've read it over before i posted it. :doh:

posted by  aerith

Fair dinkum, I didn't know that! I just thought you were an ignorant and insensitive son a of a bitch, but you're three dimensional afterall :wink2:

posted by  Wally

vwhobo, I'm proud of you for your rant and you should be too. :thumbs:

.

posted by  theman352001

I've seen some of their commercials on TV, that's about it, so I never saw anything wrong with them. But from that letter and your rant it sounds like it's suddenly gonna be alot easier to get certified. Correct if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that take away from the prestige and relevance of an ASE certifacation?

posted by  jedimario

Yes it would, and I hope the standards aren't lowered so more people can get certified. If anything, I'd like to see them become more comprehensive in subject matter, go deeper into diagnostics and maybe double the number of questions. Still there's about a 35-40% failure rate so I don't know if the tests are difficult enough as is or if that many testees are simply unqualified. I find the tests to be relatively easy, but I not only prepare myself, I also tutor others prior to testing.


I think the whole thing boils down to one of two things, maybe both combined. Somebody decided they need to be more touchy feely to make more people feel included or they were losing applicants/testees because it was to difficult for them. Maybe because miniorities and especially women have a substantially higher failure rate. I know one chick who's been taking the same test (P2) every six months since May 2000, she still hasn't gotton certified and she's the manager of a parts store, but again I digress.

posted by  vwhobo

i can relate to that. a guy i used to work with (at a muffler and brake shop) had worked there about 6 years and still couldn't pass the brake or the suspension tests... :banghead: :banghead:

posted by  dodger65

To be fair, there are some people who do not do well on tests even if they know the material. They have great mechanical aptitude but when they have to put it to paper something gets lost. Or they have an intuitive understanding of the principles involved but have difficulty understanding the test question.

Same thing in the corporate world where the college drop out becomes CEO of some company. Were they a great test taker? Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't diminish their accomplishments.

.

posted by  theman352001

Well, I think you VWHOBO, are stupid. I have passed that stupid test 5 times. Who cares about your stupid accomplishments? I do't even give a sh#t! So go stick a burrito up your @$$.

thank you. :fu:

posted by  U-R-A LOSER

You've passed "that test" five times? Really, which test is that? While we're at it, let's do some math. First your certify and then re-certify every five years. That means you've passed the test for 20 years... And you're 12 years old. Sorry Loser, it doesn't add up. The only thing you have to hang on your wall is Certified Masturbator.

posted by  vwhobo

What the heck is wrong with you??

Why would anybody waste a good burrito?

.

posted by  theman352001

you should be good at both because if you can't put it on paper that means you lack the communication skills that your job may require, I don't know how it works with auto body work shops, but when your doing something like mechanical engineering your not always going to have the part with you and a great deal of the communication comes from the drawings itself. I know your talking about a test, but I think if you can't do well on a test then you limit your expertise to one function, just my:2cents:

posted by  salimander13

Spoken like a typical college educated engineer. Never occured to you that people could know a LOT about being a mechanic (which is vastly different than being a mechanical engineer) and repair anything on sight through experience, touch, sight, and sound, and not have great language or writing skills. A mechanic/body repairman/etc that isn't a business owner has ZERO need of any of that sort of thing when repairing cars. Spelling and typing, grammar and sentence structure, has NEVER come up when swapping out struts, diagnosing a rough idle, or getting a door panel perfectly straight.

Some of the guys I know in shops that were the best at what they did couldn't type or write well to save their lives. And their jobs did not require it. One of the best frame machine techs I've met was a high school dropout. He was dyslexic when writing, so he rarely did it. But if we wanted anything perfectly straight the first time, and quickly, he was teh man. he also did an excellent job of hammer and dolly work, a true craftsman in that regard, with an instinctive knowledtge of metalshaping and metal properties, even though he had no formal education in it.

My typing skills suck (as most here can attest to), but I never needed it for anything to do with building cars sucessfully.

Personally, I think schooling for engineering limits your expertise to fewer functions than not.

posted by  ChrisV

Thats why I wrote "I don't know how it works with auto body work shops" because I had no idea if mechanics did nothing else other than find the problem and fix it. I'm going to school to become a mechanical engineer you may think it limits my expertise, but I think it increases my knowledge for what is about to become. When I finally get a career job then my knowledge will greatly increase with things I didn't learn in school. I'm sorry I don't have the neccessary skills in being an auto mechanic like yourself, but you just taught me something and I thank you for that.

Maybe if you weren't trying to defend the post and would have seen it from my point of view, you would have understood where I was comming from.

posted by  salimander13

Being a mechanical engineer myself, I am able to see both sides of the fence and I have to say that I side with ChrisV's point more. I would recommend that you read it again without thinking that he is defending a post. He is providing good insight.

You do also have a point though. If you are able to do both (have the mechanical aptitude, and be able to pass the test) then you are in a position to go farther than somebody who can only do one of them.

The point that needs to be made though is that one is not necessarily better than the other. A person with great intuitive skills can go very far and perhaps go farther than somebody with a degree. They become true masters that people with degrees look for to create things.

One piece of advice I can offer you is to not look down on the technicians that make what you design become reality. They know what they are talking about just as much as you will. Their knowlege will be based more on experience and less on theory and therefore they will have insight into possible issues that you may have missed.

Ok, I've babbled enough. Don't take offense to what I have typed. I am not attacking you. I'm just trying to broaden your point-of-view a bit.

posted by  theman352001

no offence taken what-so-ever. I welcome all constructive criticism because it gets you a lot farther than just arguing. I think we were both blinded by the fact that he thought he was right and I thought I was right. But the fact of the matter was we were both right in our own aspect as you clarified.

posted by  salimander13

The fact of the matter is you wrote this:



We're not discussing engineering jobs,l but mechanics, teh guys that FIX things, hands on. Saying how mechancial engineers do their job is as relevant as how secretaries do theirs to this discussion. the communication skills of putting things on paper for a test have nothing to do with the feel it takes to fix a car. What part of the language test makes a cleaner TIG weld?



You don't know how it works, you say, but you think that because you're in school to be an engineer than EVERONE who does mechanical work needs to be an engineer to go far in life. Simply not true. And while I respect most engineers, I don't have a degree in anything, and have made much of my career fixing the things that degreed engineers f*ck up due to real life not working like their theory. It's right along with my rants on opinion vs facts.

Yes, a good education is a good thing. And yes, someone that has BOTH has more opportunities than someone who has just one or the other. But the moment you put forth that elitist claptrap about how they basically weren't worth anything as mechanics or people because they didn't have the "communication/language" skills a mechanical engineer might need raised the hackles on my neck. It ranks right up there with an opinion alone being viable simply because it's an opinion.

posted by  ChrisV

Altough I found a couple of things wrong with your clause I'm just going to give up and say I'm totally wrong with everything I said. Seeing as if I post something your obviously going to find something wrong with it and so its an ongoing battle that leads to nowhere. So you win I'm wrong your right.

posted by  salimander13

I know you're new to this forum so let me help you out. ChrisV is convinced that his opinion is the only one that is correct... or that counts. Even when you can prove that his opinion is not based on fact, his opinion is still right, at least in his mind. He has displayed this behaviour over and over in the time he's been a member here.

The sad thing is that he really does have a lot of knowledge and experience. He's just never learned to admit that maybe, just maybe, there is the slightest possibility that somebody else might know something that he doesn't or know more than he does.

You're correct in your belief that written communication is important in the automotive repair arena. I can vouch for that based on my years of experience. Just because some people do well in spite of their shortcomings, doesn't mean that all or even many do.

posted by  vwhobo

I seem to remember getting the rounds from a member (no not VWHobo) for being too educated and I haven't even divulged the extent of that training. :mrgreen:

I think VWHobo should be congratulated for continuing his training. That engineers should get a medal for sitting in boring lectures for 4 or 5 years and having the humour fluid sucked out of their bodies. That that little balding guy with the beer belly, skulking around the back of the workshop should get competency recognition for the way he can fix an impossible problem in 5 minutes without a manual.

I have 4 trade qualifications, a few tertiary qualifications and a cat that helps me fetch the paper in the morning. While I was doing my apprenticeship I was attending uni doing an engineering degree. I was also going to nightschool 3 nights a week at a technical college. My spare time (between 9.30pm and 3.00am) was spent tom catting and somewhere in there I was playing with car engines.

When my long legged boy magnet daughter came home teliing me she had been accepted into uni, I reminded her that before she even contemplates putting dibs on herself, that uni is just another school and the degree of knowledge she was about to get would only be a primer for the real world or next step in her education. At 22, she is just finishing her second degree, while working and is contemplating a PHD at "school". Even though her GPA is about 6.3 (I sneak a peak at her results), she does not brag (that's daddy's job) or think she is superior and is the first to tear strips off those that demonstrate degree snobbery. I think I have done a good job in coaching her to be a fair dinkum Aussie sheila..... now if I can only get rid of her :laughing:

Of course the flip side are those that tear strips of people for having audacity to formally educate themselves.

posted by  Wally

i go for final year in january, i kicked third year exam's ass so now i just have to write for 4th automatic tranmissions, airconditioning and more electrical. I had a phone call from my dad earlier this year who is a newbie in the manager department but decided to take this job, anyway i know what you mean hobo by everyone is a winner, because he gets talked to like that all the time and they expect him to talk like that to his employees, as you can guess he's probably a great manager cuz if you phuck up he's gunna make sure you know it. none of this you all winners and you should feel good for trying b.s .

posted by  BanffAutoSpa_ap

Pot, kettle, black... Sorry, Hobo, but you're much more caustic, opinionated, and downright rude than I am. And you're vastly quicker to insult someone for saying something you don't agree with. I merely respond to people being insulting. You are insulting as a hobby. ;)



It's no more important in auto repair than it is in sculpture or art. Again I ask, what part of proper typing makes a better TIG weld or teaches you how to know how much pressure to put on a transmission that you're sliding back up to an engine or lets you know just how much paint to lay on the car to straddle that line between smooth and sag?

posted by  ChrisV

You didn't name her Beryl did you?

posted by  windsonian

Which, as is normal for you, completely evades the point while proving it at the same time. You are totally unable to accept the fact that someone may have a different opinion than you or that someone may have facts that you don't. I accept everyones opinion as long as there is some basis in fact or at least critical thinking involved. I may not agree with it, but I accept it. Just don't try telling me that in your opinion 2+2=5... Then I will call bullsh*t.

posted by  vwhobo

I thought about Doreen, but the missus wouldn't come to the party. :mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

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