What does look like to you Israel's assaults to the Lebanon?

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In my opinion, Israel this one killing civil many people in the Lebanon.

It is not possible to compare the Islamic terrorism, with a nation so powerful as Israel.

For what USA not act? And for this. The Zionist power is so big in the World.

Regards:
Realista.

posted by  Realista

Israel is destroying a threat to its citizen's safety. That's how I see, nothing else if you ask me. I think it's great what they're doing and that we (USA) could learn a lesson.

posted by  jedimario

The truth has been spoken! :clap:

posted by  Nissan_Altima

Were Iraq, Vietnam also threats?
North Korea, is not it now a threat?

Let's not forget that the Jews occupied a few areas that were not his.

Unfortunately, the Zionist power is very strong in the Government of Bush.

I want the peace.

posted by  Realista

I think you don't know much about the history of the area. that area was ORIGINALLY Jewish, before Muslims existed, thousands of years ago. But more importantly, that area was under the control of the Turks and the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years. When the Turkish empire was defeated, the area was then owned by teh French and British. Before WWI, NONE Of the nations of the Middle East east of the Suez existed. NONE. They were all part of the Ottoman Empire. The league of nations (in the 1920) divided up the area of the Turkish Empire known as Palestine into a French controlled area Known as Syria) and a British controlled area (known as Palestine). The area called palestine then was mostly swamp.

The British altered that mandate in 1923, to create a Palestinian nation and a Jewish nation. The Palestinian nation was Transjordan, the Jewish nation was Palestine. After WWII the UN partitioned the land again. It was partitioned to match population concentrations, and to make as few people move from one place to the other as possible. Additionally, Jerusalem was an international city, available to all worshipers.

The day Israel, in full accord with the UN partition, declared its independence, it was attacked by all the surrounding Arab countries. It damn near lost and got wiped off the map. But it didn't. However, Jordan took over Jerusalem. From 1948 to 1967, Jews were not allowed to visit their most holy sites. They were not allowed into the city. Ancient Jewish grave stones were used by the Jordanian Army to build latrines along the Wailing Wall.


You're completely misinformed if you think that history started in '67 when Israel took BACK Gaza. . When Moshe Dayan entered Jerusalem one of the first things he did was order the control of the al Aqsa (sp?) Mosque returned to the Imams. From that time on Muslims were allowed in. Further, many Palestinians within Israel proper are Israeli citizens. In '73, the Arabs attacked again, once more intent upon the utter destruction of the Jewish State. They failed. Israel took the Sinai peninsula and both sides of the Canal. A few years later, when Egypt entered into a real peace treaty, it gave it back. If Hamas and Hezbollah put their guns down tommorow, the fighting would stop. If Israel put down their guns tommorow, there would be more rockets hitting Haifa. It's really that simple.

You see this as aggression by Israel and some Zionist force in charge of the Bush administration, merely for reserving the right to self defense! Hell, you seem to be applauding the idea of stripping from Israel, and only Israel, that right.

There were no Arab nations there before Israel was created, no Arab lands were taken to create Israel, and most of teh palestinians that are in the area descended from arabs/turks brought in during that time to have jobs reclaiming the land (much of it was swampy), and would not have been in the area had not the nation of Israel been created there.

Israel has been defending itself against attacks since it was created, even though, as a nation, it NEVER was the cause of the problem, nor did Israel as a nation take anything from anyone until AFTER it was attacked in '48.

And EVERY time it has backed off and done exactly what the UN asks of it, it gets attacked AGAIN.

Israel basically did exactly what had been demanded of them for so long, when they pulled out of Gaza. And what did this act of appeasement do? It emboldened the terrorists, and not much else. It made them figure that Israel was weak, and it caused them to act even more aggressively. Of course, a whole hell of a lot of us have been pointing out how blindingly obvious the results of "negotiating" and "peace talks" are when one side is blindly bent on annihilating the other, and is obviously not an honest broker.

The world is finally beginning to wake up and are no longer acting with instant anti-Israeli sentiment every time they look at the conflict. They're finally realizing - as if there weren't enough historical lessons to make it obvious - that APPEASEMENT DOESN'T WORK, and all it does is postpone the military conflict and usually makes it worse than it would've been otherwise. And they're finally waking up to the fact that the Palestinians may not be the poor anguished victims of Western civilization they've fantasized all along.

Israel is NOT the problem!

posted by  ChrisV

1. You seem, like many liberals and non-Jewish middle easterners, to be overlooking a few facts. Who is is for years that has been dropping bombs across the border into Isreal while breaking UN sanctions to do so? Who is it who has gone across the border into Isreal to kidnap military AND civlian personell? Who is it that has made it very clear that their objective is to wipe Ireal ans all Jews off the map? If you answered Lebanon and more specifically Hezbollah, you would be correct.

2. Let's look quickly at another assertion of yours. There are approximately 1.3 billion Islamists in the world, yet there are only 14 million Judaists. How do you propose that "the Zionist power is so big"? The numbers just don't add up.

3. Why is it that the "government of Bush" is to blame? Why is it the job of the USA to make everything right... As long as in doing so you get what you want?

posted by  vwhobo

If the Hezbolla didn't put it's military operations in Civilian centers, if they didn't use civilians as a sheild, there would be far fewer civilan casualties. Israel COULD just carpet bomb them, but they are specifically attacking Hezbolla and Hamas military personnel. At the very least the IDF is attempting to minimize civilian casualties as opposed to Hezbolla and Hamas with their unguided rocket and mortar attacks.

posted by  ChrisV

Wait a minute buddy. You're dealing in facts. We can't have that in this thread. Are you part of the Zionist power?

posted by  vwhobo

The most interesting part of conspiracy theory is that, if you agree with the conspiracy theory, it's more proof to the theorist it exists. If you DISAGREE with it, you're part of it, and proof that it exists. Can't win no matter what.

:banghead:

posted by  ChrisV

Isn't that the same as every conspiracy theory though? Did you know it was also the Bush administration that planned and executed the destruction of the World Trade Center? I think they may have been responsible for WWII as well. :roll:

posted by  vwhobo

The surveys, they say that the Europeans we are more near the Palestinian reason. Israel takes advantage of the weakness of other countries.

In any case, USA and Israel produce many weapon, have to give them exit. Not? Now, are not communists so bad? Egypt, Syria seran the close ones in attacking? Are Lybia and Gadafi allied now?

Al-Qaeda will not be late in acting, producing mas deaths and chaos.


Regards:

Realista.

posted by  Realista

Israel has only responded to attacks since 1948. What part of that is not clear? Israel BACKED OUT OF GAZA, like all the peace lovers wanted. As soon as they did that, THEY WERE ATTACKED AGAIN. Israel is not the cause of the problem.

This latest round looks like a new Arab tactic, however. This whole asymmetrical warfare thing -- forget about trying to defeat Israel militarily. The Arab world tried that 3 times and failed miserably. So that's out. Instead, fight it with guerilla/insurgent/terrorist tactics. Set up proxy groups with loose ties to the states sponsoring, so plausible deniability can be claimed, and the useful idiots can persist in their delusions. Make the fighters indistinguishable from civilians. Carry out the battle from civilian locations, target civilians, use civilians as human shields. Force Israel (or whatever oppressive power you're fighting) to retaliate in a blind rage, force them to inflict civilian casualties, and mobilize the international community, UN, etc. to step in and stop them. Meanwhile, you take a breather, resupply, and blend back in among the civilians, only to re-emerge later.

posted by  ChrisV

And all this shows what real Islam is all about. They hate the Jews because they aren't Muslim, that's why they keep attacking if you ask me.

posted by  jedimario

I think there are a myriad of reasons people outside the Arab sphere harbour a resentment for the Jews.

Historically they have taken control of business enterprise, e.g. even way back when Jacob and Joseph cast their eyes on the Egyptian grain stores.

They tend to be seen as money driven and the example of Jesus giving the money lenders the rounds for using the temple as a counting house is a powerful image.

The refusal to acknowledge Jesus as the mesiah and new testament references to their fall from God's grace

Throughout the the middle ages Kings financed their armies by lending from the Jewish bankers at the expense of the peasants and lords.

Plays like the Merchant of Venice make no bones about the propensity for wealth creation regardless of physical suffering, no matter how absurd.

Profiteering post WWI in Germany and it's environs at the expense of struggling citizens. This resentment was compounded when, post WWII, the USA were seen to be profiting the same way with Jewish businessmen at the helm.

Control of the western film, media and entertainment industry and the obvious bias

The strong presence within the judiciary.

Similar influence in the political machines.


Of course there are many more real and fabricated reasons people are wary of the Jews, but the bottom line is that millions view them as untrustworthy, disingenuous, opportunistic, cunning, manipulative, etc. This doesn't bode well for the vast majority of their culture who are probably hard working Mr amd Mrs average that would have the rug pulled from under them by a wealthy Jew just as quickly as anyone else.

Unfortunately, far from being a utopia, Zion is viewed with skeptisism by many. I would suspect the Arabs view it as country with foundations of subterfuge and opportunism, with as much legitimacy as the Celts demanding reappropriation of their original lands around Austria.

Personally I see the whole middle east as one of the original melting pots under Roman rule and much to my delight genetic testing by The National Gepgraphic in the region showed very few of the current inhabitants are residing in the place their ancestors a few thousand years ago were.

posted by  Wally

i believe Isarael are right in doing what they are doing!

like ChrisV says "Israel has only responded to attacks since 1948. What part of that is not clear? Israel BACKED OUT OF GAZA, like all the peace lovers wanted. As soon as they did that, THEY WERE ATTACKED AGAIN. Israel is not the cause of the problem."

posted by  True_Brit

thtas my opinion

posted by  mazda6man

well its so clear that israel is on wrong path.lebanon just captured their 2 or 3 soldiers and israel has started killing innocent ppl. now u guyz r jury tell me isn't israel on wrong path. it would be better israel to stop these killings right other there wise is the arab world show their power believe me israel can be fully desroyed will be this world map:evil: ...u c this is clear i've no enmity with anyone but wat israel is doing is ridiculous...its so clear:cussing:

posted by  an_talpur

israel is killing alot of innocent people that would never hurt anyone to stomp out a small population of bad people, it is like britain bombing the crap out of the entire USA to stomp out the KKK, it is not right and Isreal should be stopped the only reason why America are not saying anything about it and not stopping it is because of the huge Jewish voting population in the USA. Any one who says that israel is doing a good thing is uneducated and loves to see innocent people being murdered, or is a jew themselves, funny how the world saved the jews arses then they turn around and do the same thing to others. The good thing is that now that israel have bombed a UN observation station the UN can't support them at all any more

posted by  DRFT-R

Israel doesn't have much of a choice but to retaliate from the rocket strikes. But I don't support bombing a red cross ambulance either. Looks like the middle-east will be a no-go area for some time to come.

posted by  fudge

One notices that you the Americans, you rest to the Zionist power for an economic question.

Now, since they do not take a doll as Arafat, the thing is complicated. And the EU, also this one of the Jewish, lamentable side.

And the price of the oil, subire or was it going down?

posted by  Realista

DRFT-R, you need to go read the thread to see who the real educated people are and modify your post before you get flamed...

posted by  jedimario

guyz see this (http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=260) link. and then share ur comments about these assaults

posted by  an_talpur

You're a moron. Israel is NOT carpet bombing Lebanon. So your analogy with "bombing all of the USA" is bullshit. They are ONLY targeting, and very carefully with guided weapons, hezbolla sites. As I said before:" If the Hezbolla didn't put it's military operations in Civilian centers, if they didn't use civilians as a sheild, there would be far fewer civilan casualties."

Now, the retards that think this is about 2 captured soldiers are willfully ignoring the FACT that Hezbolla, since Israel backed out of Gaza, has been lobbibng mortars at Israeli citizens for a WHILE. They've been sitting on the other side of the border and tossing rockets and the like at israel BEFORE capturing the soldiers. ANYONE with ANY intelligence knows you don't poke a hibernating bear repeatedly, you don't poke a hornets nest repetedly, without getting something in return.

But no, as is typical with you little f*cks with short attention spans, ANY conflict goes only as far back as what you can remember from last week.

Isreal, as a nation, was created out of swampland that NO ONE was living in, by the British, the League of Nations, and finally the UN. It was given independance in 1948 and from that moment on, it has been constantly attaked by the surrounding arab nations. And yet you little f*ckers think that Israel, and ONLY Israel, should be to blame for anything that happens there because in retalition for terrorist attacks, they fight back. Grow up.

posted by  ChrisV

That is only ONE view, that is 1 persons opinion and compilation. I came into this thread 100% ignorant to everything happening in the mid-east. However, after reading ChrisV's first post, it seems thats the only way. Its history, thats the facts, they're irrefutable. How come some of you say that Lebanon is being slaughtered, when in the past it was ALWAYS Isreal getting the short end of the stick. Now Isreal finally stands up for themselves and they get bombarded and they seem like the bad guys. I'm very un-biased and im very open to new ideas but history is truth and Isreal is good for standing up for themselves in my opinion.

I'm going to dig deeper into this subject now that i've seen its impact on everyone. If anyone can prove history wrong and tell me why Isreal is wrong, by all means tell me, but dont give me some BS that differs with what has already happened.

BTW ChrisV how the hell do you know all this stuff... renaissance man?

posted by  Stem

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

posted by  an_talpur

Chris, like i said before i am entirely uneducated in this subject. But why were the surrounding arab nations bombing Isreal? Was it really about the 'holy land' and jerusalem? Or was it just because they wanted their land back.

Also, before the British intervened in the old mid east affairs [pre-isreal] were the jews being treated harshly in their previous lands. So now the surrounding countrys are trying to keep abusing them? Or was I totally wrong there.

posted by  Stem

If that's all you think happened, you're a complete idiot.

25 years ago Israel gave the Sanai pennsula back to Egypt in return for peace.

In 2000 or so they left Gaza and Southern Lebanon with the understanding that local democratic institutions would reign in armed malitia. Didn't happen.

So Hamas and Hezbolla start the shooting war again, and people ask why Isreal is defending itself.

Hezbollah's aim is the destruction of Israel; and Israel stubbornly refuses to die. Getting them to meet halfway isn't really going to solve the problem.

One of Saudi Arabia's leading Wahhabi sheiks, Abdullah bin Jabreen, has issued a strongly worded religious edict, or fatwa, declaring it unlawful to support, join or pray for Hezbollah, the Shiite militias lobbing missiles into northern Israel.

Remember: Hezbolla and their ilk consistantly use civillians as cover for their operations. Hiding behind women and kids is their way of "doing business". The more dead women and children they can display for the western media the more they can inflame things. The media doesn't help much when headlines scream "dozens of people slaughtered by ". A good number of those people were likely bad guys hiding behind mommas skirts.....and poor momma got whacked. Bad for her, but good propaganda for the bad guys who didn't give a hoot in hell about her anyway because she was "just a woman" and generally lower than pond slime in their eyes. And people like you and DRFT-R swallow the media cry hook, line, and sinker.

posted by  ChrisV

I tried to show where that land came from. it was NOT "arab lands belonging to the surrounding nations." For much of the last few hundered years, it had been part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, and rather desolate. When teh Legue of Nations and teh French/British split it up after defeting the Turks, that set of swampland was set aside to be a new jewish homeland around their city of Jerusalem (which had been a Jewish holy city long before there were any Muslims). But Jerusalem was kept an international city, open to all. But the real issue is that Muslims do not want anything but Muslims there. And the moment Israel become independant, it was attacked. And has been under constant attack since then. It is about religious and "racial" extermination. Radical Muslims (and I'm not going to paint all Muslims or all Arabs with the same brush, as it's only the radicals that act) want the total eradication of all Jews, and they want that land which was never actuallly theirs.




The Jews in Europe and the Middle east were fairly low on the social scale. there's a lot of talk about the power of the Zionists and the Jewish control of the banks and commerce, but if that were true, there would never have ben the atrocities carried out against the Jews (like the Holocaust) or the abject poverty most ended up having to live in.

After WWII, and the world saw the results of the Holocaust, the US stepped in to help back the creation of an independant Israel. We had just finished liberating oppressed jews in Europe. Unfortunately, in the centuries since Israel had ben conquered by Muslims, who took over Jerusalem, the Muslims decided that that was THEIR land and the Jews were interlopers. Even though no one was really using most of the area outside Jerusalem.

The current Palestinians are decendants of people brought into the area to help reclaim the land. They weren't there first, either.

posted by  ChrisV

the history of the area is another area of interest to me. I study quite a bit. How the world's religions have combined to f*ck over the world while trying to f*ck over each other is an area that concerns me, as is how it affects the regular citizens of all the affected nations.

posted by  ChrisV

watch ur language:cussing:

posted by  an_talpur

:laughing: He just said idiot

posted by  99integra

u c i just don't care about any history the only thing that i care about is KILLING OF INNOCENT PPL which should be stopped...thats it

posted by  an_talpur

wat do u mean by "just":screwy:

posted by  an_talpur

There are worse words over here trust me, that is NOTHING :wink2:

posted by  99integra

oh i c. i thought u meant something else:thumbs:

posted by  an_talpur

So what you're saying is that killing innocent Iraelis is okay, but that killing innocent Lebanese isn't. Very open minded. And let's not worry about the longstanding history behind what's happening, because... Well, because the facts don't support your opinion. Are you really that ignorant or are you purposely chosing to avoid the truth?

posted by  vwhobo

who is killing israelis, in this war only about 40-50 israelis lost their lives where 500 labense lost theri lives

posted by  an_talpur

Hmmm. If 40-50 Israelis have lost their live (your numbers, not mine) SOMEBODY must be killing them. Or is that another fact that you chose to ignore? No need to answer, that was rhetorical.

posted by  vwhobo

Ummm, so Israel can't defend itself against terrorist attacks against its citizens? Killing innocent Israelis is ok with you? I already typed this, but as usual, you choose to ignore what you don't want to hear:

Hezbolla and their ilk consistantly use civillians as cover for their operations. Hiding behind women and kids is their way of "doing business". The more dead women and children they can display for the western media the more they can inflame things.

Innocent Lebanese will be killed so long as Hezbolla uses civilian sheilds for thei military actions, and continues to lob missiles on innocent israelis. And the innocent Lebanese killed are MEANINGLESS to Hezbolla, so long as militant Islam thinks women are worthless, and that dying for Islam is the highest goal you can achieve.

Yeah, war is icky. People die. So tell the militant Isalmists to stop f*cking attacking Israel! IT'S NOT ARAB LAND!

As long as you think it's Israel's fault, you ARE an idiot.

posted by  ChrisV

so youre telling me that those exact bombs are what hit the kids... i dont believe it. that page could be easily made to catch the hearts of people. i bet you any thing that kids arent writing on bombs to try and kill other kids. thtas just rediculous. im wiling to bet the kids are writing on the bombs for the same reasons we used to write on our bombs that we dropped on countries in WWII, just to show the country whats up.

as for israel bombing innocent people, consider this. israel has been dealing with suicide bombings killing their innocent people for ever now from lebebes terrorist.


hey guess what, its a war.... that happens. one country is doing better than the other at the moment

posted by  mazda6man

Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Too bad he's never cried.

Ghosts are actually caused by Chuck Norris killing people faster than Death can process them.

When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.

of 99 integra.



That good!!! Chuck Norris is very an acquaintance in my country for his movies. :orglaugh: :orglaugh: :orglaugh:

The Commander Haddock and poor Vietnamese. Missing person in combat.

USA is quiet, Israel gives the exit to his weapon. :2cents:

posted by  Realista

This is the problem with trying to communicate in a non-native language. I have NO clue as to what you're trying to say here. But I have an idea that you're ignoring something important, to make a factually inaccurate statement.

posted by  ChrisV

personaly... i dont care what happens... i mean, the way i see it, its happening all the way over there... and im all the way over here in the US

posted by  starscream0

whats to say it doesnt work itself over hear... were not the most popular if you might try to remember

posted by  mazda6man

Looks like both sides will still carry on with the attacks. But I really feel sorry for those who are caught up in this. IMO all this does is play into Iran's game.

posted by  fudge

It doesn't just play into Iran's game, at least this time around, it IS Iran's game. that's where Hezbolla is getting it's weapons. Iran and Syria are Hezbolla's two sponsors.

posted by  ChrisV

wat do u want to say u want that bloody attacks to go on?

posted by  an_talpur

well, its not necessary that those same bomb would have hit but similar like them. Ok for da sake of arguement i m accepting that lebanonese terrorist killes innocent ppl so y ain't the israelis army killing them and y r they killing innocent lebanonese.

posted by  an_talpur

Maybe you're starting to see the light. Now you need to accept the fact that because the terrorists use civilians as human shield, hiding with families, gathering in crowded public places, etc. Even if you specifically target them, the unfortunate fact is that some innocents may die.

Here's annother fact that doesn't support your opinion. Israel has tirelessly warned civilians to leave the area so they will not be harmed. They have dropped leaflets and broadcast on television and radio. They are also doing everything they reasonably can to permit the flow of aid into Lebanon. That IS NOT the method of an army trying to destroy a civilian population.

posted by  vwhobo

well, that makes no sense that israel warned civilians to leave their home, where would they go and y would they leave their home...man this is ****ing ridiculous...one more thing they have also destroyed labnonese bridge so that ppl can't move to other cities, u c. and israeli pilots r also targeting truck that r taking aid to victims...even more than that they have killed UN's ppl, UN's ppl also warned them ten times though they killed them ... i m not saying all these UN is saying allright

posted by  an_talpur

That's right, never let facts sway your opinion. I wonder how it feels to live in the darkness of ignorance? That's another rhetorical question.

posted by  vwhobo

u know u wat... u r living in the darkness of ignorance...i clarify everything...if u don't want to agree thats upto u

posted by  an_talpur

wth did that come from??

posted by  jedimario

wat do u mean by that, i m lieing or grammetical mistake if so i m sorry about that

posted by  an_talpur

Israel has taken crap for so many years, they are pretty much entitled to castrate every islamic male, and kill every woman. How can you say that its not fair, when they were the ones terrorized for so long

posted by  newyorker

sorry, i couldn't get ur point:banghead:

posted by  an_talpur

*Three airports bombed
*62 bridges destroyed
*Three dams and ports hit
*5,000 homes damaged

source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stmv

Summary of the main Lebanese infrastructure damaged by Israeli bombing in the two weeks since the conflict began on 12 July, according to the Lebanese Ministry of Social Affairs. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/5218106.stm)

posted by  an_talpur

The report says there was fierce fighting in the area for about six hours before the post was hit, during which time UN personnel contacted the Israel military 10 times, urging them to stop firing.

Our correspondent says the UN claims that after each call, it was assured the firing would stop.

source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5216230.stm

posted by  an_talpur

Yeah, it's war. Do you know what the point of war is? To kill enemies and break their things. That's exactly what's happening. (It's unfortunate that innocent people are harmed, but it's an unavoidable thing) If you have a problem with it you're-
A. Pacifist
B. Stupid
C. Biased

Take your pick...But I think we all already know which one it is.

posted by  jedimario

And israel should damage another 3 times that for what they had to endure for years and years...even hundreds of years ago.

posted by  newyorker

I meant at this point from an eye-for-an-eye perspective, israel can do whatever they want

posted by  newyorker

Man, you are ****ing retarded. That's exactly how wars are started in the first place, and it only gets worse and worse.

And if you feel that way, then maybe the Native Americans should rise up, and start killing White Americans, and driving them from their homes.

posted by  dodgerforlife

We gave them equality in the end...what have the arab countries given Israel? Nothing. Im jewish myself, so maybe my views are a bit extreme for you

posted by  newyorker

this might be the first time i agree with new yorker. and al_talpur, thats nice you found those statistics, now to be fair, why dont u go find the statistics for the damage that lebanon and other countries have inflicted on isreal. i can almost guarantee it would outweight the damage that isreal has sustained. stop being so one dimensional and look at the whole picture, now just how much lebanon is suffering.

posted by  Stem

oh yea. r u really thinking israel can do watever they want? if so tell ur israeli government to stot their war with innocent civilians, if they really want war tell them to fight with an armed country which has jet fighters and other military stuffs.and one thing that i want to tell u is israel's war is with innocent civilians not with any army...

posted by  an_talpur

In the end...how many years did it take for them to get that?...

I know in Canada, we are bent over daily by the Natives...I'm so sick of it, it isn't even funny.


And it's not that your views are too extreme for me, it's just that what your saying(at least in my opinion) is that if anyone has been wronged, they should retailiate, which can cause even worse problems in the end.

posted by  dodgerforlife

you are so blind-sided, your impossible to argue with because you refuse to see the other side of the story. isreal didn't start it. its not isreals fault if lebanon puts their military hq's and such in densly populated areas surrounded with innocent civilians. israel is trying to take out the military, why dont u tell the lebanese government to stop using civilians as human shields, then maybe the death toll wouldn't be as high. lebanon shouldn't have started a fight they cant win without propaganda and human shields.

posted by  Stem

This unarmed country has massacred thousands of Israelis...but its wrong for them to retaliate...interesting...and when arab suicide bombers kill innocent civilians, i suppose that OK with you.

posted by  newyorker

The conflicts in israel started much earlier than America was even discovered.

posted by  newyorker

true that

posted by  Stem

al_tapur is prolly just an anti-semite....seeing as he resides in pakistan (apparently), its not hard to believe

posted by  newyorker

well, i have never heard in about which year r u talking about? i've no know idea about killing of israelis. and ur second point of course the killing of innocent civilian if not ok(no doubt in it) but u c can't blame the whole community of arabs just bcuz of some few ppl

posted by  an_talpur

thats not al_talpur thats an_talpur... keep this thing out ur mind that i m an anti-semite alright...our religion and my country promotes brotherhood...i just don't understand wat made u say that :screwy:

posted by  an_talpur

because your biased, no matter what happens your always gonna blame isreal for anything... if lebanon blew up isreal with 100 nukes, and 1 lebanese died from those bombs, you'd somehow find a way to blame isreal for it.

posted by  Stem

and you cant blame isreal for FINALLY standing up for itself, if 'according to you' arabs only killed a few people, then the damage that isreal has done is miniscule/

posted by  Stem

yah probably, but also he's an arab so hes gonna blame isreal no matter what, arguing with him is like trying to have an intelligent conversation with a brick wall.

posted by  Stem

well i tried my best to get u guys on right path but:banghead: . i don't want to talk on this topic anymore.

posted by  an_talpur

It's in this very thread if you'd bother to read the posts taht were more than 3 lines long. Or perhaps youi did and ignored it. Either way you're ignorant, and it's your fault you're ignorant, that makes you stupid, so go learn something or shut up.

posted by  jedimario

And in your mind the right path is praising allah and killing innocent jews? because from what you have said so far, that is your motive:screwy:

posted by  newyorker

why is this in the european imports section?































:laughing: j/k

I like cars

posted by  nighthawk

your a hopeless idiot

posted by  Stem

well, i m telling u guyz dun saying anything bad to my religion if u really want to know something u r welcome. one more thing i m not blaming israelis neither i m an anti-semite i m just blaming israeli governmeant that it!!!

posted by  an_talpur

I thought you were done posting on this topic

posted by  newyorker

You type like you are 12 years old so it is no wonder that you have no clue wtf you are saying. I will not waste my time talking to someone with an IQ equivalent to my cat's. You are a moron.



PS: On a completely random note, congrats Newyorker on the new ride.

posted by  Nissan_Altima

It is happy me to see that my post, has done to react to you.

Certainly, thanks by its reception toward my person. :thumbs:

Kisses, :wink2:

posted by  Realista

Thanks :)

posted by  newyorker

...WHAT!? I read that 3 times and still have no clue what it says...

posted by  Nissan_Altima

Another middle-eastern idiot who started this thread to kick up some shit I suppose

posted by  newyorker

A little line my dad taught me...very true

Not every arab is a terrorist, but almost every terrorist is an arab

posted by  newyorker

Dill...f*cking...hole, terrorism comes in many forms, one of the worst is ignorance.

posted by  99integra

it is true though....

posted by  newyorker

Thats what we hear on the news, but is it all entirely true?

posted by  99integra

...and it's passed down through the generations....:banghead:

posted by  dodger65

Amen :wink2:

posted by  99integra

No...but ive never heard of anyone other than a person of middle eastern descent commiting terrorist crimes

posted by  newyorker

Any other stereotypes you wish to throw out there?

posted by  99integra

Yea...ever heard of those 15 year old kids with rangers that think they are cool?:banghead: kiddin with ya

posted by  newyorker

Oh yeah I've heard of them, ever heard of those 17 year old ignorant ass Russians that seem to lurk around forums? Kiddin with you honey...

posted by  99integra

There've been plenty of Americans at least conspiring to commit terrorism, and have you ever heard of Timothy McVeah? I'm sure that's spelled wrong but w/e

It's true that most of what could be considered "typical terrorists" are Arab though, or at the very least influenced by them.

posted by  jedimario

Im 18 on the 10th of the month. Respec!

posted by  newyorker

You're still 17 though :screwy:


It's been too long since I've used that smiley :laughing:

posted by  jedimario

Why in the **** is this such a big argument? Any idiot with any trace of common sense can see that Israel is DEFENDING THEMSELVES! It's war, civilians die. I suppose if YOUR country was getting attacked constantly you would be angry at YOUR government for trying to keep YOU safe by eliminating the threat.

****ing idiots.

posted by  PontiacFan27

:clap: :clap: :clap:

posted by  newyorker

if someone drops a bomb on me

ill think of something:laughing:

posted by  nighthawk

You have respect very small, with the people. You are the overbearing one. I do not write shit, write opinions in a forum of a FREE country.

I am not idiotic, am Spanish. My country is older than his. We discover "his" America.

Be happy you, since as me. :thumbs:

posted by  Realista

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060721/capt.6597423bec1a44cbbf2 f0269d49b9b5d.mideast_fighting_devastated_south__nn101.jpg


http://www.cmylebanon.com/images/albums/userpics/10158/The%20baby%20victim. jpg


http://www.cmylebanon.com/images/albums/userpics/10158/Qana%20Victims%20aft er%20israeli%20shelling.jpg

posted by  Realista

the problem with that is that all of the terorists kill innocent people and die in the proces...so i guess its not right to go after them because they are already dead...israel should do to them as they did to israel...its an eye for an eye

posted by  newyorker

I would suggest your father is bigoted? Perhaps he can enlighten you on non terrorist incidents like the Omagh bombing, Oklahoma bombing, Columbine, etc.

posted by  Wally

Thats why he said almost every....not every single one

posted by  newyorker

Well he likes to have a bet each way by the sounds of it. Can you ask him to quantify his teachings? I would be interested to know on what basis he has established that nearly all terrorists are Arabs.

I must keep a vigil eye out for those Japanese looking Arabs that try to gas the rail tunnels, the Korean Arabs that are testing nuclear capable missiles near the previously Arabic Japan, the Indonesian Arabs that bomb holiday resorts and embassies, the Somalian Arabs that wreak terror on a daily basis with their fellow Arab citizens, the Kenyan Arabs that blow up buildings, the Irish Catholic Arabs that indiscriminantly blow up their own, the Yugoslavian Arabs that try to butcher entire populations of people with differing religion, the Rwandan Arabs who nearly managed to wipe out an entire civilian popultaion that would make Arabic Nazi Germany look like genocidal newbies.

Yep those damned Arabs.

posted by  Wally

you have a good point there, very true though!

posted by  True_Brit

yeah, but they didn't fly planes into american buildings, stupid:screwy:

they don't count

posted by  windsonian

Firstly, I'm fairly certain I can write better in Spanish than you can in English, but that's forgiveable.

Secondly, Christopher Colombus who "discovered" America was born in Italy. Amerigo Vespuci, who was the "namer", was also born in Italy. You are Spanish, not Italian...

Thirdly, this has NOTHING to do with the topic. Israel is defending yourself. You are wrong.

posted by  Nissan_Altima

^^^ I agree with that too! Isarael are defending them selves from hazbullah (or whatever they're called), accidental population death is bound to happen, but thats what hazbullah wants! (israel to get the blame for all this etc)


But that's my opinion.....!

posted by  True_Brit

Yep. But one thing I just don't get... Terrorists come to Israel and suicide bomb the hell out of the country. They use car bombs, etc. As a result, they kill random, innocent civilians that have done nothing wrong. No one reacts.

Israel decides to defend itself and starts bombing SPECIFIC TARGETS. This is not carpet bombing. Israel makes a mistake or two and hits harmless buildings. This is fully accidental. After all, this is war. No one can perfectly calculate everything so, some civilians die. NOW, people start shouting against Israel. How is that not a double standard?

posted by  Nissan_Altima

It is a double standard...

posted by  jedimario

Let's hope the Israelies don't start precision targetting like the Allies did:

Dresdan:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Dresd_4.jpg
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden2.JPG

Nagasaki

http://www.gensuikin.org/panel/2.jpg

posted by  Wally

Christopher Colon was born in Sevilla (Spain).
You write in Castilian, like that I save myself to do it in his language.

In the Lebanon repeating itself Auswicth's genocide. The victims, now are hangmen.


Regards friends.

posted by  Realista

he may have been born in Genoa but many historians believe he was born in many other places
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus


(although this is entirely out of topic)

posted by  True_Brit

Believe it or not, there are a LOT more anti-semetic people in the world than we think...take this clip for example. This is an Ali-G clip where he plays a gay Austrian man named Bruno. He interview a man at an American expo and asks "What does freedom mean to you", and this man in return says "Freedom to me is being able to say what you want, do what you want, without governments hand in your pocket, without the jewish hand in your pocket...because the government is run by Jews"

May not be exactly word per word, but here is the clip

http://spikedhumor.com/articles/9018/Ali_G_Show_Bruno.html

You gota watch past the football interview.
Main reason im posting this is to back my claim. My people are still hated to the day.

By the way here is the first comment someone left for that video

"short cheerleaders and jew bashing... 5/5! Funny stuff though...

X3R"

posted by  newyorker

Once again it took me 10 minutes to what you meant with these 2 sentences...

Christopher Colombus was born in Genoa, Italy...not Spain. Lebanon and Auswichts have nothing in common. Auswicht's was the intentional killing of many innoncent people for nothing. Nazis were NOT provoked. What they did was INTENTIONAL.

Israel's response is self-defense. Furthermore, they do not PURPOSELY target civilian buildings. Are you really this ignorant of the facts?

posted by  Nissan_Altima

What explanation has of Auswicht? So thenthat the Nazi were getting hold of Germany. Hitler wanted the power the Germans, simply. The methods are debatable. The Soviet communism, it does not stop being an invention of the Jews.

The conflict in average east, is based in that the Zionist quiren to mount your country (Israel). It forms with his your money and weapon, steal countries.


Brotherly regards

posted by  Realista

Sorry, but you're seriously brainwashed. I'd suspect you're no older than what, 13?

You are seriously misguided, and not worth our time anymore.

posted by  ChrisV

Right right...so according to you, everything bad that has happened is because of the Jews...because from your "statement" thats what I understood...is that why the greatest minds of all time are mostly jewish?....

Albert Einstein I believe was jewish
Steven Spielberg is nothing short of the world greatest filmmaker
The list goes on.

posted by  newyorker

I seriously hope for your sake that ChrisV is correct and you are just a child. If you are an adult, you are a pathetic excuse for a human being. I can only thank you for cheering me up because now I realize that no matter what goes wrong in my life, every day I wake up, I'm not you and do not think like you.

This is my last post on this topic. I have alrady wasted too much time on you. You are a moron.

posted by  Nissan_Altima

I think you will find Albert was more a show pony than a greatest mind of all time. His wife, for instance, was far more intellectual and able than he. It's easy to promulgate ideas when the base work has been performed prior by greater thinkers like Max Plank, Gustav Kirchhoff, Helmholtz, Nicola Tesla or by your wife. Many would argue that knowledge of physics is not the only indicator of intelligence.

What about the great american entrepreneurial minds like Thomas Watson (http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2001/444/444p28.htm) and Henry Ford (http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm). The very same men that helped make the USA the super power it is today.

I think Speilberg would be the first to suggest there have been much better film makers than himself, but chances are they would all be Jewish, being a closed shop industry that it is.

If you are going to carry the torch for a particular sect or tribe you need to include those that were famous for other things like, for instance, Fritz Haber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B)or don't they teach you that stuff in the kibbutz?

posted by  Wally

I do not say that all the Jews are wrong. Woody Allen also is a Jew, and is a great filmmaker.

The sionismo that controls the President Bush is bad.



This arrogance that you show, harms his country.

Be you more opened of gun-sights. The problem that you, it has is that it lives foreign to the exterior world. In my country, it is possible to vote for more options that in his. Do you understand me?

I am 32 years old. How many years you have? I am not idiotic or moron. The rest of persons does not lack the respect. In my country it is not a custom.

Certainly, Israel gives for the massacre finished.

Embraces.

posted by  Realista

Well I wouldn't say you're stupid, I wouldn't know, you're just severely brainwashed, like alot of kids in public school here.

(Had to throw that in :laughing:)

posted by  jedimario

Friend, to my nobody has washed the head. :doh:

In any case, it is your nation if they wash the head. And I say who: the Zionist power.

I invite him to that he visits Spain, France or Portugal.

posted by  Realista

I just said that :screwy:

posted by  jedimario

I think the lack of your knowledge of the english language is already handicapping you here. Plus the fact that you always say "regards" adn crap doesnt make oyu look wise. Just stop talking, and better yep, stop existing here and in the world alltogether

posted by  newyorker

Look where all this advice is coming from. :roll:

posted by  99integra

I don't see you trying to make conversation with a foreign person in their native language...I think it's somewhat honorable that he's trying.

posted by  jedimario

Ok, let's pick the eyes out of your "English".... and I won't even bother with the grammar....
"adn" ??
"oyu" ??
"yep" ??
"alltogether" ??

Oh, and while we're on it... Wally, isn't your English off too? I always thought it was Max Planck.... then again, I could be wrong, and couldn't be bothered looking it up.:laughing:

posted by  windsonian

i try to wash the head at least three times a week...:wink2:

posted by  dodger65

Shut up bitch :thumbs:
Love ya honey

posted by  newyorker

We got such a lovely f*cking lovely relationship don't we SWEETHEART.

posted by  99integra

:wink2:

posted by  newyorker

:mrgreen: I think you are correct. Must have had short planks on my mind.:wink2:

posted by  Wally

Have I to ask for pardon for writing in this forum?

I ask for pardon if they could have bothered the Jews by my commentaries, but it is that in my country this it is the perception of the topic.

You are more tolerant. To the first ones of change, one has been absent the respect.

Peace and love.

posted by  Realista

Nothing you directly said was insulting, but it was the implied stuff. I can take a lot of crap before getting mad, so I wasnt as mad, as I was annoyed.

posted by  newyorker

As soon as you start spouting off about teh "Zionist power" you prove that you're simply idiotic. That's a false enemy, created primarily as a way to justify racism.

oh, there are Zionists, and Zionism is indeed a movement. But it's not what you think it is. That's where YOUR" brainwashed.

Let me state right here, that I am not a member of any religion, nor any political party. I'm a fan of history, but not just the history written by the winners. I'm not a fan of a lot of what Bush is doing as president, but I understand much of what he IS doing simply by paying attention and remembering farther back than when he OR his father were involved in the presidency.

I think it is important to point out the reason for the Zionist movement...that those of the European Jewish society were being repressed, attacked and murdered by Europeans of that other religious faith. There is no reason to believe that the European Jewish society had any desire to leave Europe other than for survival. Other than being, for the most part, confined to ghettos, European Jews were remarkably properous compared to many others in the various European nations. The waves of pogroms over the centuries and, finally, the holocaust was the major reason for the need of a homeland, not just power and land; although there are always elements in any society that crave that.

So what is the proposal? Should Britain and France, as the nations that originally took over that area of the world from the Turks, give back the land to the Turks and find a different place for the Israelies? Do the turks give it back to the romans? Do the Romans then give it back to, well, the Israelis?? The Palestinian's ancestors were moved into that area as well... How far back do we go to determine "ownership" of the land? only as far back as is currently politically convenient? Do the ancestors of the settlers from around the world who formed the US go back to those nations and let teh Indians have this nation back? How about the French canadians? Shoudl they go to france? And what of all of us of mixed heritage? Where do we go? How about the descnedants of various Roman groups in Europe that got to where they are by taking land from surrounding "barbarian tribes?" Should the Aussies move back to England? How far back do we go, and why only one area of the world?

Or is it more realistic to say, quit bitching about the actions of our ancestors and make do with the lands as they are. It matters not if Israel was created in that area by a League of Nations vote after the British and French took over that region from the Ottoman Empire. It's been there for nearly a hundred years. Radical Muslims intent on wiping out Jews and the Israeli nation need to jet get te F*ck over it. Their ancestors took the land over from others, and others will take the land over in the future.

posted by  ChrisV

:thumbs: :clap: :thumbs: :clap: :thumbs: :clap: :thumbs: :clap:

posted by  Nissan_Altima

:stupid:

posted by  newyorker

I think that is Iranian and Syrian intent, thus the current situation :wink2:

posted by  Wally

and this ceasefire all the nations are calling for wont help, israel stop, huzbullah (what ever theyre called) will carry on i think!

posted by  True_Brit

i gotta agree with brit on this one. even if isreal does ceasefire, hezbollah and lebanon will, imho, continue fighting and continue the propaganda

posted by  Stem

It will never end unless all of the lebanese are wiped from the face of the earth (sounds harsh but its true), because no matter what the countries ruler's agree on, it will continiue...the suicide bombings, etc. They have nothing to be afraid of. If the ruler of lebanon issues a death penalty to those who comit terrorist acts, they wont care, because they die in the process anyway.

posted by  newyorker

Not sure I agree on this one. Lebanose aren't the problem...Hazbollah are. Think of it this way. You are sitting at home. Some guys come into your house and live there with you the entire time. Once the police come to arrest them, a shoot-out happens and you get caught in the middle. Same thing is here. Hazbollah came and is running the shots in Lebanon. I'm sure most of the Lebanose civilians would actually enjoy a cease fire.

posted by  Nissan_Altima

Well then Hazbollah needs to be wiped out...Israel is doing nothin wrong, but now that they are retaliating rightfully, they are being looked down on.

posted by  newyorker

exactly this is wat i have been trying to explain, and of course ppl want cease fire...and wat israel has done u all know that!

posted by  an_talpur

What has Israel done. Accidentally killed a few people in the heat of war? Get out of my sight you dumb ****

posted by  newyorker

accidentally??????????????

u know wat even a the craziest person on earth can tell u da killing of thousand innocent and injuring even more than that is not anaccident. u r dumb:cussing:

posted by  an_talpur

Which is exactly what hazzballah or whatever the **** they are called did to israel.



Who is the idiot now. Just stop posting here you make me sick. You should crawl into a gas chamber and die fast!

posted by  newyorker

y don't u tell me wat hizbullah has done to israel? i m waiting

posted by  an_talpur

maybe it was hazbola, maybe it was lebanon im not sure, but thats not the point. youre contradicting. when its done to iseael, its fine in your eyes, when israel does it, its a crime...whoever did bomb israel bombed the shit out of innocent civilians...suicide bombings...car bombs...you name it. its dumb :cussing: like you that give a bad name to your country.

posted by  newyorker

well, u know better than me that sucide bombing and all that sh*t is done by terrorists alright so how come israel kill innocecnt civilians instead of terrorist...

posted by  an_talpur

i thot u were done posting here?

i mean seriously, if your going to have a conversation with us atleast be open minded and dont try to force your opinions on us. even tho new yorkers pov may be somewhat extreme at times, he still knows whats going on, he knows the facts, which is, hezbollah attacked isreal, hezbollah killed many innocent civilians, isreal defended itself, and in the process of defending theirselves ( AKA. W A R) they killed some innocent civilians as well. dont try to say it is all isreals fault, because then you will just prove how clueless and immature you are. open your eyes, see that its a war going on, people die on both sides of the fence. you cant blame us for getting irritated at you when you refuse to see our point of view.

posted by  Stem

this isn't war mate...this is propaganda against innocent civilians. well if it was really a war i wouldn't say anything.

posted by  an_talpur

I already explained that, but you refuse to listen.

Israel gave back Gaza, as asked, and wanted peace. Hamas and Hezbolla IMMEDIATELY started lobbing bombs at Israel, killing innocents. They started suicide bombing, killing innocents. They started capturing and killing Israeli soldiers. Then, they hide out in civilian locations. If the Hezbolla didn't put it's military operations in civilian centers, if they didn't use civilians as a sheild, there would be far fewer civilan casualties. Israel cannot HIT Hezbolla military targets and ONLY terrorists as they are hiding IN civilian centers. It's impossible to separate the two, which is why Hezbolla DOES that.

That's the part you refuse to understand, and why we treat you like an ignorant fool.

Hezbolla makes the fighters indistinguishable from civilians. They carry out the battle from civilian locations, target civilians, use civilians as human shields. THey have forced Israel to retaliate in a blind rage, forced them to inflict civilian casualties, in order to strike th terorists (who are not miliatary soldiers anyhow. The terrorists ARE civilians, themselves!)

posted by  ChrisV

Because all of the terorists die in the process...double killing them wont do anythin. this isnt resident evil. get out of your diaper, because life is real, not a video game

posted by  newyorker

How did this topic just die? Its a pretty important thing in the world at the moment.

posted by  newyorker

i just don't understand wat u wanna hear from me?ppl r being killed whole lebanon's infrastructure is destroyed. u r still taking is as a joke...if u r still calling this a mistake,,,

posted by  an_talpur

even if there is one or two kills, those are accidents and in israels defence!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5258234.stm

and according to the UN's text, israel are not required to withdraw!!!

posted by  True_Brit

http://i4.tinypic.com/23jl4d5.gif

posted by  ChrisV

:orglaugh: exactly!
that made me laugh for a while, my work colleagues wondered what i was laughing at

posted by  True_Brit

Israel is justified. Many israelis died unjustfully, but when a few of the enemy die from stray fire, its suddenly sooooo wrong in your eyes

posted by  newyorker

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/x/M/iraq_checklist.jpg

posted by  an_talpur

Revenge is a reason for me....:thumbs:

posted by  newyorker

revenge??? would u kindly clarify about which revenge u r talking about:hi:

posted by  an_talpur

Are you really this stupid? I have tried to avoid posting in this thread, but this is just unbelievable. You must be the dumbest person to have ever touched a keyboard. Have you been hit in the head with a bat before in your life? Maybe dropped on your head when you were a child? I can provide no explanation for your single digit IQ and find myself wondering how someone as stupid as you has lived more than a day in his life. How many times was this explained already (at least twice by ChrisV alone)?

How many times were there suicide bombings in Israel? What abour car bombings? What about cross border raids? Don't hurt yourself twinky, we all know you can't count past 3 but take my word for it: a lot. Lots of innocent Israelis died.

Now Hazbollah starts s***, runs, and hides behind civilian buildings. Israel bombs SPECIFIC cites (compared to carpet bombing). Hazbollah hide behind civilian buildings (kill their own people), Israel does their best to tell them ahead of time to evacuate, and civilian people still get hurt. This is a war...you can't avoid civilian deaths.

As Israel continues to bomb specific sites in order to minimize civilian casualties, Hazbollah retaliate by purposely bombing civilian buildings. Is this not true? Can you find one piece of information wrong in my response. WAIT! I know you want to type. But don't. Re-read this a couple of more times. Then think. Should be a new experience...

posted by  Nissan_Altima

I am with nissan...you are a totally closed minded moron. Please just leave, so we can have a wholesome discussion, and not have to try and keep LD kids at our pace.

posted by  newyorker

What part about getting attacked by hezbolla did you not read?

Hezbollah decides to launch a pile of rockets, and then wander over the border, kidnap some Israeli troops and drag them back into the bowels of towns and villages in Lebanon, knowing it will piss off Israel. These guys purposefully brought this fight on, and now you're saying they're to be hailed as saviors because they are seen as protecting Palestinians and Lebanese from "unprovoked" israeli attacks? WTF??????

Hopefully, someday these people will learn that the easiest way to live in peace is to simply leave Israel alone.

Both sides are made up of people Apparently you care very deeply about the innocent lebanese citizens caught in the crossfire, and you don't give a single shit about th einnocent Israeli citizens that were bombed to start with and are hit by hezbolla's unguided bombs on a regular basis. You also believe all the faked/staged news reporting from that area, too, don't you?

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/hajjjuly24.jpg

"Journalists are shown by a Hizbollah guerrilla group the damage caused by Israeli attacks on a Hizbollah stronghold in southern Beirut, July 24 2006. (Adnan Hajj/Reuters)."

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/hajjaugust5.jpg

"A Lebanese woman looks at the sky as she walks past a building flattened during an overnight Israeli air raid on Beirut's suburbs August 5, 2006. (Adnan Hajj/Reuters)."

But a cursory glance shows that it's the exact same destroyed buildings in both photos. If they were already destroyed on July 24, they couldn't have been destroyed on August 5, especially since the damage is identical in both pictures. It's quite obvious that photos of the same scene were re-released to make it appear as if Israeli bombing raids were continuously hitting Beirut, when in fact Reuters was just recycling the same damage over and over.

And in another example:

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/beirutwoman1.jpg

"A Lebanese woman wails after looking at the wreckage of her apartment, in a building, that was demolished by the Israeli attacks in southern Beirut July 22, 2006. REUTERS/Issam Kobeisi."

But look at this one...

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/beirutwoman2.jpg

"A Lebanese woman reacts at the destruction after she came to inspect her house in the suburbs of Beirut, Lebanon, Saturday, Aug. 5, 2006, after Israeli warplanes repeatedly bombed the area overnight." It's definitely the same woman. The photo captions, supplied by two different news agencies, contradict each other. Which leads one to question whether the woman had anything to do with the building at all, or if she was just asked to pose in front of it for drama's sake. Either way, the editor's captions are necessarily untrue, since her home obviously couldn't have been demolished twice. The photos may or may not be authentic, but at least one of the captions is a falsehood.

posted by  ChrisV

What about this questionable reporting?

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/usnews.jpg

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/lebanon4.jpg

These pictures of a Hezbollah gunman not only appeared on the cover of U.S. News and World Report, but were captioned, "A Hezbollah gunman aims his AK 47 at a fire caused by an explosion in Kfarshima, near Beirut, Lebanon, Monday, July 17, 2006. Lebanese TV stations broadcast video pictures Monday claiming to be an Israeli military aircraft falling to the ground in the area, but Israeli military said no aircraft was shot down over Beirut and there was no immediate confirmation of the cause of the explosion." The photos were taken by both Reuters and AP photographers.

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/usnews2.jpg

But a close-up reveals that the scene is entirely counterfeit: the fire, as the gunman and the photographers must have known, was nothing more than tires burning in a garbage dump. The captions conveyed the "fact" that the gunman was in a dangerous situation, ready to fire at a downed Israeli aircraft. It's not entirely beyond the realm of possibility that Hezbollah set the fire themselves, to provide a dramatic backdrop for an iconic propaganda image.

And teh New York Times ran this faked series...

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/newyorktimes2.jpg

n this first image, one of a series on the N.Y. Times site, a man with a greenish cap (on the right) is seen gesturing at the rubble.

In the second image, you can see the same man at the lower right, wearing the same cap and baggy, washed-out trunks. the man with the yellow/blue striped shirt in the foreground was at the bottom of the first picture...

And in this final picture:

http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/newyorktimes.jpg

the same man is seen -- easily identifiable by his trunks, his hat pressed under his arm, and his distinctive nose -- pretending to be dead as someone else tries to lift his "fallen comrade." The Times captioned the image, "The mayor of Tyre said that in the worst hit areas, bodies were still buried under the rubble, and he appealed to the Israelis to allow government authorities time to pull them out. (Photo Tyler Hicks The New York Times)." The unmistakable implication is that the photo depicted what the caption was describing -- a "body" still buried under the rubble. In other words, the guy is now supposed to be dead.

But if you look at the photo closely, It's not only obvious that the man is still alive and only feigning death, with the same men from the first two photos (including the guy with the blue/yellow striped shirt, standing in the background) in it, making the scene a blatantly staged hoax, but that Tyler Hicks, the photographer, must have known that he was only acting for the camera, since Hicks had taken the earlier pictures as well. Hezbollah and the New York Times teamed up here to create a propagandistic image.

(All images and text courtesy another website, not linked to here.)

posted by  ChrisV

u can't neglect the truth by calling me dumb or moron:laughing: ...ok c'mon frankly tell how many israelis hav died after 1 month of these conflict??? near to nothing, where more than 1000 lebanese have died and their infrastructure is just damaged man! one more thing this is not a war, this is f**king invasion , believe if it was a there would have been mass killing...and do u know wat hazbollah is its a group of ppl and just bcuz of that group innocent ppl r being killed..wadya wanna say now???same sh*t???

posted by  an_talpur

ok i m wid u i m really wid u...lets finish off hezbollah together but how???the way isreali government is doing??? of course not .BTW da images links ain't working looks like they r made to make u fool!

posted by  an_talpur

And how many israelis have died in the attacks done to them. Get out of here you pathetic anti-semetic excuse of a human being. BTW the pictures work fine for me, and im sure for you as well..you just cant admit that you are wrong. leave

posted by  newyorker

The image links work just fine, though sometimes they take a while to load, you impatient, immature twit. The links are there, I didn't make the images, therefore *I* can't look like a fool. Only you, my friend.

Attacking Hezbolla like the Israelis are doing it is the least destructive way of going about this, as negotiating has ALWAYS ended up in keeping it going and encouraging larger bombing raids against Israel. What say we nuke and pave? that'd cure the problem.

I'll say it again, if Hezbola and the pan arab community laid down their arms and stopped attacking Israel, this woudl stop. If Israel stopped reacting to the Arabs and Hezbolla, there would be more bombing in Israel and to Israeli embassies worldwide. It's that simple.

posted by  ChrisV

The pictures and captains are crazy cool! Great catches! I personally didn't even notice until now... But as far as this guy, no point in even wasting time typing. He is undoubtedly a little kid that will soon get run over by a car and no one will give a s***.

posted by  Nissan_Altima

what a great idea!!! if only it could happen!:laughing:

http://www.chatalyst.net/herdenkingszaal/nuke.jpg

posted by  True_Brit

That site ( http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/ ) is just a cynical attempt to distort the truth. It's just a coincidence each of the actors in the photos has a twin, triplet, quadruptlet, Goddamnit!.:wink2:

posted by  Wally

I swear to god those links ain't woking here. all this proves that ur media is hiding the truth...
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/an_talpur/pic.jpg

posted by  an_talpur

I didnt know they had windows XP in broke ass terorist countries. Why are you still posting. Its just a matter of time until cliffy comes back and gets you banned so im not worried

posted by  newyorker

It's funny how many times you lot say he's not worth your time yet you still argue. Why not just ignore him instead?

posted by  fudge

shuddup no more word than that. wat do ya think that US is the only country where OS xp is used??? one more thing i never said anything which might have hurt anyone's feeling...lets finish off this arguement with this post...no more post:thumbs:

cheers

posted by  an_talpur

Interestingly enough, it shows that our media is hiding the truth.. in favor of Hezbolla!

Kind of puts a spin on the whole "zionists are in charge of everything" theory if our supposedly Zionist controlled media is distorting the truth in favor of Hezbollah and against Israel!


Media spin is against Israel. And you're believing it.

posted by  ChrisV

i just said that these link ain't working nothing else now its upto u think watever u want...i don't undersand y m i posting:ohcrap:

posted by  an_talpur

Israel is entirely justified...I dont understand why you keep arguing because there are 20 people here on one side, and then there is you...a bit off no? Grow up. What did you expect? That Israel can be abused and then do nothing back?

posted by  newyorker

ok. u guyz won watever israel is doing is right and let'em do that..i dun wanna argue on this topic any more

posted by  an_talpur

:clap:

posted by  newyorker

Dont you guys think that what the Israelis are doing to the local population of the Lebanon is to say the least OVERKILL. For kidnapping two soldiers????Isn't what's happening in Iraq OVERKILL.The weapons of mass destruction still appear to be invisible. The loss of American lives is slowly but surely getting to the loss of lives from 9/11.Apart from that a civil war is just around the corner. We had World war 2 in my country for 5 yearsso you have no idea what you're talking about. Paul

posted by  tovarich

So, you failed to read the thread, didn't you? if it was just about two soldiers, yes, but, it was not. Maybe you just forgot about the lobbing of missiles into Israel first, and more.

Most Palestinians are just folks like us. However, they are pawns in a cruel Arab game, the stated goal of which is the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews. Do you agree with Hassan Nasrullah when he says, "If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel,it will save us the trouble of going after them on a world wide basis." it's been proven that much of what the western media is reporting about the Israeli/Hezbolla war is at best misreported, and in many cases, blatantly staged and faked to make Israel look bad.

Every civilian casualty is the direct responsibilty of Hezbollah, with no moral burden on the Israelis. Self-defense is not a moral issue. Neither is proportionality. They're about ethics, which are totally undeveloped/absent in Islam.

You'd better start publically admitting that Israel is being extremely gentle in prosecuting this conflict, because what comes next will be much more graphic.

Think about it; at some point soon, Israel may run out of the smart bombs they are so graciously employing, and resort to plain old carpet bombing. And rightfully so; they didn't come to this knife-fight with just a knife, and it's a fight-to-the-death for them. remember, the Arabs stated goal is complete extermination of the Jews, aned Hezbolla, besides just the unguidd bombs and missiols it's lobbing at Israeli citizens ad civilians, has been blowing up Jewish embassies worldwide for many years.

Israel--protects it civilian population.

Hezbolla--uses surrounding civilians as human shields.

Isreal--to the best of its ability, targets terrorists and their centers of operation.

Hezbolla--targets civilians.

And since those fattan running Hezbolla have boldly declared that their fight is against the mere existence of their enemy... the Israelis have better-than-normal excuses for taking off the kid gloves. They honestly think they're literally fighting for their survival... so what do they care what the press thinks?

Hezbolla has been attacking a sovereign state against which it has no grievance in violation of its UN agreements, its responsibilities as Lebanese citizens, and in violation of all agreed-to standards of international conduct. The Geneva Convention explicitly—and any minimally civilized, intelligent human being—holds Hezbolla guilty for the consequences, just as criminals are responsible for those killed in defense against them when they commit a crime.

Unlike Israelis, who are in the practice of protecting their civilian population (i.e, placing their military operations out of harm's way, providing for evacuation) it would appear that Hezbollah is in the practice of putting their military operations and weapons right in the middle of civilian populations, and then scream bloody murder when they are hit!

SOOooo... just whose fault is it if there is collateral damage involving civilian casualties?

Some peopel are calling Hezbolla terroists "freedom fighters. Interesting. Freedom from what? Last time I checked the Hezbollah were free to live in Lebanon, free to mind their own business. SO in their quest for "freedom," they go across the border to attack Israeli soldiers?

The only freedom they're looking for is the freedom to kill the Jews and to obliterate Israel.

Seems that Adolph Hitler once sought that freedom as well.

No doubt, one of your heroes.

Israel fired the first missiles in the "official" war. However, Hezbolla launched diversionary rocket fire into Israel to help cover their raid that nabbed the two Israeli soldiers. Or, according to your skewed view, perhaps this doesn't count because the war hadn't started yet. Got news for you. Launching warheads (missiles or rockets) into a sovereign nation from another sovereign nation IS AN ACT OF WAR. Hezbolla did, in fact, strike first, and not "just" kidnapping two soldiers.

For six years Israel watched as thousands of missiles, rockets and other assorted ordinance made its way into Lebanon, all the while hoping the (spineless) international community would step in and put a stop to it, as it said it would. Israel knew what this equipment was intended for, how 'bout you? The world's biggest war museum? I'm afraid not.

You're treading on very thin ice when you take up the Hezbolla cause.

I'd like to remind you that Israel has been getting along fine with Egypt since they signed a peace treaty, and have even given back all of the Sinai. And this was only possible because Egypt agreed to cease any further violence against Israel. And guess what? THAT'S ALL IT TAKES TO HAVE PEACE! Isreal gave back Gaza because they were told that there owuld be peace. Instead, Hezbolla in lebanon ramped up missle import, fired riockets into Israel, KILLING CIVILIANS IN ISRAEL, and kidnapped two soldiers that they wanted to trade for some prisoners. You know who was at the top of that list? Samir Kuntar, someone who is widely considered a hero in the muslim world for crushing a four year old girl's skull against a rock while her father watched, then executing the father. This is who they want back. And when these scumbags get released, where do you think they might end up? My guess is that many would soon be found on the Lebanon border, firing rockets into Israel. Soooo...exactly what motivation does Israel have to set any of these people free?"

Until the people of Palestine and Lebanon gain control of the terrorist scumbags who claim to fight in their names, expect Israel to meet these threats ruthlessly and violently, and be totally justified in doing so. How can they afford to take any chances neighbours sworn to their complete destruction, and now with the propects of the kooks in Iran building themselves a nuke. Do you need to be reminded that Ahmadinejad has gone on record as stating that Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth? Yeah, doesn't leave a hell of a lot of room for negotiation does it? To give these groups what they want means to turn over Israel to the mercy of the Arab world. But HEY! There'll peace right? Don't fool yourself. You'll be next. It's just a matter of time.

posted by  ChrisV

While stereotypes are often found true in many situations...let's refrain from riding the racial line.

Let's be a little more sensitive.

A warning to all.

:thumbs:
.
.

posted by  BavarianWheels

Thank you Bav

posted by  99integra

You call that a racial remark? But an_talpur going around saying how israel is wrong to bomb back, and there is nothing wrong with lebanon bombing israel isnt racial? Anti-semetism inside!

posted by  newyorker

I said it was coming close...and just gave a general warning to all.

I've not read this thread, but was pointed to your post. I simply pointed to one instance and gave a general warning to all.
.
.

posted by  BavarianWheels

Well maybe you should read the whole thread to see who the real culprit here is, instead of jumping on my case becuase someone told you to do so...just a suggestion, because compared to what he has said, ive basically babbled like a child

posted by  newyorker

He only used your post cause it was the only one he saw, he gave a woarning to all, not to you, hush.

Anyways, I haven't been keeping track of the news for a week, so I have no idea what's going on over there, but I'll find out lol

posted by  jedimario

Now the terrorists a.k.a. lebanon are starting to move to europe. bombs found on 9 planes 24 suspects arrested. And this tapur kid is gona sit here and tell me lebanon is doing nothing wrong.:screwy:

posted by  newyorker

I wonder how he only saw my 1 post out of the almost 200 replies here

posted by  newyorker

Maybe because of a complaint dumbass

posted by  99integra

Wow someone here is a whiny bitch for sure.:banghead:

posted by  newyorker

Leave this F*CKING FORUM

posted by  99integra

no :thumbs:...but why dont you stop whining like a little girl?

posted by  newyorker

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/12/mideast.main/index.html

posted by  newyorker

Well calling Pakistan a broke ass terrorist country is racist and insulting.



Lebanon had little to do with the bombs especially as the people arrested are british muslims. Don't forget that Al Quieda(which was responsible for 9/11) are still around plotting away.

posted by  fudge

Because I have a f*cking opinion and I'm not f*cking whining about, I hate all these goddamn prejudices that you AND an tupar w/e his damn name is are throwin out, WILL YOU BOTH JUST F*CKING STOP. Maricon's....

posted by  99integra

I can just imagine how relieved Iran would be that those idiots were arrested before they could blow up the planes. I think it would have been a catalyst Tony Blair and George Bush have been looking for to all out invasion of that country.

And the Pakistan govt should be applauded for moving so swiftly in advising the British of the plan. Mind you they need to start making some close allies; India is set to become an economic giant and they don't like the Paki's.

posted by  Wally

All you had to do was to ask nicely..you dont have to throw a shit fit

posted by  newyorker

Anyone who beleives that'll work is as ignorant as CNN has made them.

posted by  jedimario

I couldnt find the exact article i was looking for..about the london stuff.

posted by  newyorker

Update...was just watching the news and this is what they quoted the Hazzbolah leader saying

"Our country must continiue to kill all israelis to be assured that peace never comes"

Also in the newspaper a lebanese woman said

"when my son died in a suicide bombing, it was the best day of my life. He is with allah now"

And you say we should be kind to these people? That my statements are too hard. maybe all of you brits here now are starting to share my feelings that your country has also been targeted.

posted by  newyorker

So are you trying to get us to hate muslims or what:screwy: because thats what I think you're trying to do.

posted by  fudge

Hating Muslims would be wrong. OTOH, blindly ignoring the fact that this is a religious war about the extermination of the Jews, just so you don't get accused of hating Muslims, is ALSO wrong.

The stated goal of the Hezbolla and of radical Islam is the eradication of all the Jews. THEY have no problem in stating racist hatred. The sooner people understand that and stop wrorrying about being PC, the quicker the world will solve it.

Just like we can't be blind to the fact that the far right wing Christians can be just as full of hatred. MOST Christians are not. MOST Muslims are not. But the extremists of both camps can and do give the rest a bad name. Right now, radical Islam has control of the majority of Mosques, and radical Islam is actively bombing innocents worldwide. Denying that fact in order to not look racist is going to prolong the suffering.

posted by  ChrisV

No, but I would like you to understand why I feel the way I do, and not complain and call me a racist and all. These people are basically the scum of the earth (not every single one but a lot of them), and when I say something like "not every arab is a terrorist, but almost every terrorist is an arab" I get people here bitching to mods that im not sensetive enough for their 15 year old ears. The least you can do is open your eyes and ears, and see that they are expanding. They planted bombs on 9 airplanes. What if they werent discovered and Cliffy for example was on the plane (g-d forbid), you would maybe finally understand. You dont have to hate them, but at least dont defend them. Just wait untill these people will come to the united states to deal more damage. You will despise them.

posted by  newyorker

Even though we were targeted by terrorist I don't feel that I have to be angry at the muslim community. After the July bombings last year the police were denying that it had something to do with our contributions to the war in Iraq, yet after a few months Al Jazeera(sp?) broadcasted a video of one of the suicide bombers(who was a british muslim) condemming Britain's involvement in Iraq. People here are either angry with the terrorist or angry that Tony Blair ignored their protest against invading Iraq.

posted by  fudge

are you angry, or feel any emotion to the terrorists?

posted by  Stem

If anyone says they're a Christian but is "full of hatred", I would seriously doubt that they're living a Christian life.

posted by  jedimario

I'm just angry that Tony Blair's decision to go to Iraq has put our country in danger of terrorists.

posted by  fudge

Well, let me tell you something. There's some Muslim organization here in the US, I forgot what it's called, that is considered the spokesperson for the Muslim community here in the US. They had a press conference on Friday I think that was supposed to be about the whole thing with the liquid bombs. the first 30 seconds, they said that Muslims are dedicated to national security and that they condem terrorists. They didn't mention a single specific event or denouce the terroists or anything of the sort. They spent the rest of the 9 1/2 minutes pretty much saying how dare you to Bush and the rest of the US for calling the terrorists Islamic faciasts and for discriminating against Muslims. So maybe you in England don't, but I in the US most certainly do.

posted by  jedimario

If you're not a Muslim, you're in danger of the terrorists.

posted by  jedimario

Repeat that ... and substitute "Muslim" for "Christian".

Cuts both ways.

posted by  windsonian

Well, while I don't know the context of the passages, I know there are some vassages in the Quaran that tell Muslims to cut non-believers at the throat, kill, convert, or enslave them, etc. There may one or two things like that in the Bible, but they were in the Old Testament, and they were instructions for specific cases only, not general rules.

posted by  jedimario

I'd have to agree to a certain point with Newyorker on this one. While I'm not saying that every Arab is a terrorist and we should go wipe every Islamic person off the face of the Earth, didn't anyone else notice any similarities between all of the people that have been targeting the US within the last 5 or so years?

posted by  Nissan_Altima

im not entirely angry with that decision! it may sound weird but i think he went in cooperation with bush and the US like they have done for a long time!
i for one dont have a problem with most muslims, not racist at all, just the muslims etc who dictate hatred against white people etc etc etc

posted by  True_Brit

so it happens in the Bible, and the Koran ... I'm not verbatim-ly familiar enough with either to say it happens more in one or the other, but it would seem that neither are you. I'm not saying that you're wrong about the content, but I'm not going to form an opinion based on "I don't know the context...." and "but they were in the Old Testament".


I don't think anyone's arguing that point ... but as usual, it is the few who tarnish the reputation of the many.

posted by  windsonian

The passages in the Koran were presented to me as general rules, but the presenter may have had a bias and wanted it to look bad.

And you misunderstand about the Old Testament thing, that just means that it's not relevant anymore, just history. When Jesus came to earth and died for everyone's sins, He made all the rules except the ones that are backed up by the New Testament irrealvant. So I can speak for what the Bible says, just not the Koran.

posted by  jedimario

Plus IMO the ceasefire is a bad idea because it gives Israel's enemies more time to regroup, rethink, get their shit together, and then land a massive blow...it WILL happen, because thats the nature of the enemy.

posted by  newyorker

Well said..

posted by  newyorker

I understand what you're saying ... and I'm really not having a go at you here.

But if it IS in the Bible, and it IS in the Koran. Then isn't it possible that the two are somewhat similar? I could present the excerpt from the OT as "general rules" to someone who "can speak for the Koran, just not the Bible". I just think it's better to not judge until you know what or why you are judging.

posted by  windsonian

I never meant to judge, was just pointing out that it's possible that the real Muslims are the terrorists, while backing why similar things in the Bible aren't really the same at all. I need ot go read the Koran or something :laughing:

posted by  jedimario

Which one?:wink2:

posted by  Wally

A lot of things have been attributed to (or blamed on) religion of all types over the years .... I guess it all depends on your fundamental, liberal or conservative interpretation of religious tenets.

posted by  windsonian

wo wo did u just said that HOLY QURAN says to kill ppl, to be terrorist???(i can tolerate anything u say to me but anything bad about HOLY QURAN i can not tolerate)

do u really wanna know about BIBLE i can tell u something true that dun wanna hear!!!

posted by  an_talpur

Does doing that makes you any better than what Hezbollah are trying to do? And even if you do try to carry out enthnic clensing I'm sure you'll end up with even more problems.


A nice generalisation there!! How about all those who live in Scandinavia?? Are they in any fear of a terrorist attack?

posted by  fudge

They aren't in fear, but they may very well be targets. it's already been stated by terrorist leaders, as well as radical Imams.

Crime exists in all societies, and the religious beliefs of the criminal are not the issue. In the Crusades, Christins acted on Christian beliefs and statements in the OT to justify genocide and attacks on Muslims (who had previously attacked and taken over Jerusalem). And Christian belifs spurred witchhunts thoughou the world, as well as bloody wars in Europe. Hopefully, advancing civilization had tempered that, and reduced the genocidal violence against non-Christians.

But, what we are talking about now is the radial muslims that are using the Quran's violent passages to justify genocide against non-Muslims, as well as terror attacks worldwide.

The foillowing is an excerpt from a website that was put up BEFORE the events of 9/11: http://answering-islam.org/Silas/terrorism.htm



When Muhammad started out preaching his religion of Islam he was not violent. He was persecuted for preaching his religious ideas and insulting the pagan religions of the Meccans. But, before he fled to Medina, he had gathered a small army and fought. "Then God sent down to him: "Fight them so that there be no more seduction," [b] i.e. until no believer is seduced from his religion. "And the religion is God's,", i.e. Until God alone is worshipped." [Sura 2:193]

In Mecca, where Muhammad was weak, he attacked no one. He only preached his religion and insulted the Meccan's religions. But it was just prior to his leaving for Medina, where he had a limited amount of armed men to support him, that he received this "revelation" and began to use violence to further his desires. Islamic history shows that as Muslims grew in power their forms of violence changed from criminal terrorism to outright warfare. At the end of the quote, it says that Muslims are to fight those who do not worship Allah.

From Guillaume, op cit, page 369:

"The apostle said, "Kill any Jew who falls into your power." Thereupon Muhayyisa b. Masud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, 'You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?' Muhayyisa answered, 'Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.'"

This story is also supported in the Sunan of Abu Dawud, Book 13, Number 2996:

Narrated Muhayyisah: The Apostle of Allah said: If you gain a victory over the men of Jews, kill them. So Muhayyisah jumped over Shubaybah, a man of the Jewish merchants. He had close relations with them. He then killed him. At that time Huwayyisah (brother of Muhayyisah) had not embraced Islam. He was older than Muhayyisah. When he killed him, Huwayyisah beat him and said: O enemy of Allah, I swear by Allah, you have a good deal of fat in your belly from his property.

A quote from an Islamic scholar - Wensinck writes in his, "Muhammad and the Jews of Medina" [2], page 113: "It is remarkable that tradition attributes Muhammad's most cruel acts to divine order, namely the siege of Qaynuqa, the murder of Kab, and he attack upon Qurayzah. Allah's conscience seems to be more elastic than that of his creatures."..... Ibn Ishaq and al-Waqidi report that the prophet said the morning after the murder (of Kab Ashraf), "Kill any Jew you can lay your hands on.".

This incident is also documented in Tabari's History [3], page 97 of volume 7.

This shows that Muhammad had unsuspecting people, those who even had good relations with Muslims, murdered in cold blood because they were Jewish. There was no justification to murder these Jews other than they were not Muhammad's followers. These actions were the work of Muhammad's terrorists committing murder.

Book 38, Number 4348:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Here we see here that Muhammad allowed people to murder others just for insulting him. Here, a slave woman, who was used as a concubine by her Muslim master, paid for her criticism of Muhammad with her life. Note here that one man murdered his own slave, who was the mother of two of his children!

Muhammad taught his followers to oppress or kill non-Muslims. Generally, Jews and Christians were allowed to live as such, provided they paid a special tax. This tax is Jizya, a tax revenue given to the Muslims to make up for revenues they lost from no longer dealing in pagan activities. If the Jews and Christians refused to pay this extortion tax they would have to convert to Islam or be killed. Non Jews or Christians (idolaters or pagans) had to convert to Islam or be killed. Generally they didn't have the option of paying the tax. Here is the verse that teaches Muslims to oppress Jews and Christians:

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, (which is Islam that abolishes all other religions ) of the people of the Book, (meaning the Jews and the Christians ) until they pay the Jizya (the tax imposed upon them) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (with humiliation and submission to the government of Islam.) 9:29 ." (Commentary in parenthesis is from the Tafsir Al-Jalalein. i.e., Al-Jalalein Interpretation of the Koran.)

The order to kill Christians and Jews is in that verse. It is clear that Muhammad ordered his followers to fight those Christians and Jews to convert them or pay the Jizya, and if they don't convert or pay, do you think that he told the followers to let them go in peace? It is very clear: convert... or pay with submission ... or die.

The background for this is found in "The Life of Muhammad", op cit, page 620.

"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Sura 9:5

Several Muslims have written about the reasons they are allowed to wage war. From "The Quranic Concept of War", by Pakistani Brigadier S.K. Malik, it says, [in the preface]

"But in Islam war is waged to establish supremacy of the Lord only when every other argument has failed to convince those who reject His Will and work against the every purpose of the creation of mankind."

"Many Western Scholars have pointed their accusing fingers at some of the above verses in the Quran to be able to contend that world of Islam is in a state of perpetual struggle against the non-Muslims. As to them it is a sufficient answer to make... that the defiance of God's authority by one who is His slaves exposes that slave to the risk of being held guilty of treason and as such a one, in the perspective of Islamic law, is indeed to be treated as a sort of that cancerous growth on that organism of humanity.... It thus becomes necessary to remove the cancerous malformation even if it be by surgical means, in order to save the rest of humanity."

The Muslim writer states that those who reject Islam are viewed as a cancerous growth to be violently removed, i.e., murdered. And, note that the Muslim writer basically agrees with the "Western Scholars" that say that Islam is indeed "in a state of perpetual war", with non-Muslims.

Isalm is a religion of violence, even though most muslims are not violent. Most Muslims are not terrorists. Many of them reject the actions of their Muslim brethren around the world. Unfortunately, since Islam teaches world domination, these moderate Muslims rarely raise their voices in protest. If the Israelis bomb Hezbollah camps in Lebanon, Muslims in New York, Detroit, and Los Angeles will organize a mass demonstration. But getting Muslims to condemn the terrorist actions of their brethren, say of those in Sudan, Egypt, Algeria, Afghanistan, Iraq is like pulling teeth.

posted by  ChrisV

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/jihad.htm has even more...

"Following September 11th, most Muslims living in the West defended Islam and stated that Islam is a religion of peace, while many Muslims living in the Islamic world and some Muslims in America (living in predominately Muslim communities) and Muslim students on American campuses openly celebrated the deaths and destruction of the WTC. Many in the Islamic world rejoiced and shouted “Death to America”, and “America is the Great Satan”, and called for the continuing destruction of America, while in the West Muslim spokesmen proclaimed that the Muslim terrorists have hijacked their faith and that real Islam is a kind religion, and is not associated with the terrorist events. The two camps completely contradict each other. They both cannot be correct. So, what’s the bottom line according to real Islam?

Since the death of about 3000 Americans has just occurred at the hands of Muslims, and since these Muslims have vowed to continue to murder Americans, be they men, women, or children, it is incumbent upon us to examine the fundamental teachings of Muhammad, found in these texts, and see how they apply today. Not only are American lives at stake, but actually, the lives of anyone living in a free, or non-Muslim society. Therefore, I want the readers to understand that when I state “America”, or “American”, I am also including Britons, Mexicans, French, Germans, Japanese, Brazilians, Russians, Chinese, Australians, and so forth. All non-Muslim peoples are at risk. For us to not thoroughly investigate what Islam is truly all about would blindly invite the disaster that has been perpetrated upon us to occur yet again and again."

posted by  ChrisV

Learn how to spell first.

posted by  Nissan_Altima

Yes. I am not saying we atom bomb the hell out of Lebanon but I am saying that we attack Hezbollah forces in Lebanon as long as necessary. Unfortunately there will be civilian deaths, but that is unavoidable. Meanwhie, Hezbollah SPECIFICALLY targets Israeli civilians.

On a slightly different note, while traveling to work day, I was reading a newspaper. An article on the middleeast included some Lebanon children (probably in the 8-10 age) waving posters of the Hezbollah leader from both hands. That made me sick. I just wish to break them in half...

posted by  Nissan_Altima

Thats what I meant. They are scum, and should be destroyed. All they do is reproduce and kill those around them.

posted by  newyorker

Unfortunately, not necessarly true. In both cases, hatred and killing of those not believeng as you do has scriptural precedent and even commands.

But in the bible, Old Testament passages advocating violence against your enemies was replaced by New Testament calls for peace and Jesus' calls for non-violence. Muhammed, OTOH, would replace his ealer calls for peace with increasingly more violent calls for jihad.

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/jihad.htm

Now many Western readers will be tempted to apply their methods of logic and understanding of Biblical Scriptures to the Quran. They will take various Quranic verses at face value thinking that all the verses in the Quran are applicable today. They may reason that since the Quran says, “there is no compulsion in religion”, it means that Muslims are not to force people into Islam.” This approach is erroneous. One of the odd facets of the Quran is that some verses “abrogate” other verses, i.e. they cancel them, or render them null and void, no longer applicable. “Abrogation” means the canceling or replacement of one Quranic passage by another. Things changed during the 23 year period that Muhammad spoke the Quran. As circumstances changed Muhammad’s precepts found in the Quran changed accordingly. Thus the Quran abrogates or cancels itself in various passages and presents seemingly conflicting statements. These abrogations are not viewed as contradictions by Muslims, but rather, as improvements, to better suit the varying circumstances or needs, of the Muslims, or to fit Muhammad’s religious concepts. For example, many Islamic scholars consider that the verse reference above “there is no compulsion in religion”, found in 2:256, has been abrogated by the passage found in 9:5, (more on this later). [The verse in chapter 2 was spoken about 7 - 8 years earlier than the one spoken in Chapter 9.]

The Quran is unique among sacred scriptures in teaching a doctrine of abrogation according to which later pronouncements of the Prophet abrogate, i.e.: declare null and void, his earlier pronouncements. The importance of knowing which verses abrogate others has given rise to the Quranic science known as "Nasikh wa Mansukh", i.e.: "the Abrogators and the Abrogated".”

Rather than attempting to explain away the inconsistencies in passages giving regulations for the Muslim community, Kuran scholars and jurists came to acknowledge the differences, while arguing that the latest verse on any subject "abrogated" all earlier verses that contradicted it. A classic example involves the Kuranic teaching or regulation on drinking wine, where V, 90, which has a strong statement against the practice, came to be interpreted as a prohibition, abrogating II, 219, and IV, 43, which appear to allow it.

Consequently, as a result of changing circumstances, various Quranic passages were abrogated and Islam changed over time. The rules that applied at one point in time did not necessarily apply at another.

Now then, if Muhammad’s calls to violence found within the texts were only for a specific period of time, against a specific people, for an understandable cause such as self defense, or to alleviate the oppression of an oppressed people, then the critics of Islam could not honestly say that Islam is a religion that condones aggressive violence and terrorism. On the other hand, if it can be shown that Muhammad’s final intentions for Islam were to attack, conquer, and rule all other peoples, and that the use of violence, in various forms including terrorism, were justified towards installing Islam as the dominant power, then Islam should be called an evil religion. Accordingly, the actions of the murderous Muslims should be identified as truly Islamic and done in the spirit of real Islam.

The quran and it's companion pieces are full of individual examples of violence and murder caused by Muhammed's proclamations, direct orders or people acting on his immediate behalf. There is no parallel with jesus or any Jewish teachings. To say that islam is a religion of peace is in fact, wrong. the ONLY way for Islam to be a religion of peace is for everyone on teh planet to be Muslim. Until then, it is written in the Quran and by Muslim scholars that attacking and killing non-Muslims is a glorious goal.

The “Reliance of the Traveler, (the Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law)”, page 599, [9], is one of the more respected, classical works in Islamic theology. This 1200+ page volume contains fundamentals of Islamic jurisprudence compiled by “the great 13th century hadith scholar and jurisprudent”, Imam Nawawi, and others. This work was not written with a Western audience in mind. Nawawi wanted to produce a book on Islamic law that was precise, and accurate; one that taught true Islamic values. The following is a long quote on jihad:

“Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word “mujahada”, signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self, (nafs), which is why the Prophet said as he was returning from jihad.

The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus is such Koranic verses as:

1) Fighting is prescribed for you (2:216)

2) Slay them wherever you find them (4:89)

3) Fight the idolaters utterly (9:36)

and such Hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet said:

“I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final reckoning is with Allah.”

And the hadith report by Muslim

“To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.”

Jihad is communal obligation. When enough people perform it to successfully accomplish it, it is no longer obligatory upon others. And Allah Most High having said:

Those of the believers who are unhurt but sit behind are not equal to those who fight in Allah’s path with their property and lives. Allah has preferred those who fight with their property and lives a whole degree above those who sit behind. And to each Allah has promised great good.” 4:95

Jihad is also obligatory for everyone able to perform it, male or female, old or young when the enemy has surrounded the Muslims.

The Caliph makes war upon the Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax Jizya…in accordance with the word of Allah Most High:

“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden – who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book – until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled.” 9:29

The Caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim ....”


...............................

al-tapur, do you want to comment? Remember this: I am neither Christian, Jew, nor Muslim, but I have studied each.

posted by  ChrisV

I said it's possible it does, ChrisV seems to have showed us that it does.

And tell me this something about the Bible, I'd love to hear it.

posted by  jedimario

IMO the bible is a myth for those who dont want to learn reality (a.k.a. people that arent educated). However, there are exceptions...just my opinion

posted by  newyorker

IF you weren't so bass ackwards you'd be exactly right :laughing:

posted by  jedimario

No you were saying to WIPE OUT every islamic people, that is not just the people in Lebanon but everyone who follows Islam. Israel can attack Hezbollah for as long as it wants but by being in Lebanon for so long will start new problems. I fear that Israeli militants might end up like the allies and are forced to keep their units in a country they invaded for far longer than nessecary. One problem will be who will rebuild Lebanon??

ChrisV, I have realised that the Qu'ran does need a re-think in the parts regarding violence against non-believers. But what Jedimario said about terrorist just targeting non-muslims are completely untrue, there were some muslims who were killed in the July bombings last year and probably a few were also killed on September 11th. Also the suicide bombings at Istanbul killed Turkish muslims and muslims in Iraq are constantly under fear of bombs everyday.

I dislike the way the media portrays terrorists as Islamic-it's not as if we call the IRA or ETA a bunch of christian terrorists.

posted by  fudge

You want to be non-racist. You want to say that all people are equal and that terrorism is part of every culture and religion. To a certain point, you are right but we can NOT ignore the facts:

9/11: Arabic descent
Hezbollah: Arabic descent
Al Quida:Arabic descent
Many suicide bombings in Israel: Arabic descent

I understand that it is not like ever Muslim is a terrorist walking down the street but the majority of serious terrorists against America are. They hate Israel, hate the US, hate the US support of Israel, and want what they believe is their land. Sure we can preach that anyone can be a terrorist, but as soon as we wake up and realize the generalization of the people that are attacking us, the better.

posted by  Nissan_Altima

You're government has already generalised the people attacking. That's why the "War on Terror" that Bush declared is being fought out in countries like Afghanistan. Also the "terror suspects" detained in Guantanamo bay are all muslims. But by not ignoring the "facts" muslims will feel discriminated and in a multi-cultural society that's not good. In fact a new safety measure being carried in airports in britain today are being seriously criticised for being racist.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/15082006/140/racism-fears-security-checks.html

posted by  fudge

Wouldn't that be terrible. Targeting the people who are most likely to be terrorists, younger males of middle eastern desent. That's not racial profiling, that's using common sense. My 76 year old mother has been taken aside and given the big interrogation and search three times in the last year. When was the last time a white skinned, gray haired old lady bombed or hijacked an airplane? The answer is never.

If bleeding heart liberals like you, who obviously gets most (all?) of your "information" from the left wing press get your way, the next thing that'll happen quadraplegics will be suspects in purse snatchings. There is after all a reason that only men are rounded up for questioning when a woman is raped. You need to get a grip on reality and realize that the limited investigative resources are best used where they do the most good. I personally don't give two sh*ts if it hurts someone's feelings.

posted by  vwhobo

Yeah, just because someone's killed in an attack means they were targeted. Mhmm.

posted by  jedimario

They do that so terrorists can't complain of selective discrimination. The last thing we need is a bomber getting a big pay out for biased screening procedures.

posted by  Wally

Good point, now we just need to fix the problem of him being able to get a big payout for discrimination.

posted by  jedimario

well,first of all i just wanna tell u that the word "jihad" is an arabic word which mean to strive or struggle.i dun understand who
taught that the word "jihad" means to kill non-muslim??? did u know that Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’,
which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah . Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah(god almighty).
u said that The Caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim.i assume it as u said that islam was spread by
force.

see here...

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert.
Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.

indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims.
May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"

Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"


Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?

posted by  an_talpur

Yeah, and The People's Republic of China is a republic just because that's what it's called.


Here we go, no condemnation for the terrorists, and we're getting how dare you accuse us again. Nothing will ever change these people, Islam needs to be completely destroyed.

It is regrettable that the crusades even ever happened, and had I been around in the day and been the same person I am today, I would have comdemed the crusades as much as I am condeming the terrorists.

posted by  jedimario

Glad to see im not alone on this topic. This is a forum....a place for OPEN discussion...if you dont like what is being said here, dont read it..PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!

posted by  newyorker

You do have a good point there about using common sense but remember that there is a large muslim community in britain who has as much right as everyone else does to be treated equally, afterall we are living in a country where we can vote and have a say in how the country is run. And also there are so many discrimination acts in this country that what Wally said could possibly happen.


And how do you go about destroying a religion?? Don't tell me you're suggesting a worldwide genocide of those who follow it.

posted by  fudge

That would be nice IMO. They will never change.

posted by  newyorker

If you had a choice of saving thousands of lives by being SLIGHTLY discriminative or risk lives by being fair and equal, which would you choose? The British Muslims should understand. If everything would be vice-versa, they would understand.
:2cents:

posted by  Nissan_Altima

Nice??!! I don't think it'll be nice to see some of my friends die and they don't support the terrorist or Hezbollah. What kind of a sick bastard would think that genocide(to any race or religion) is nice:banghead:


Being slightly discriminative would help protect people in the short term but in the long term you'll just fuel up the anger of those who could potentially help. As an ethnic minority I hate nothing more than being racially discriminated and I'm sure the british muslims would feel the same too. But who knows where we'll go from here.

posted by  fudge

But of course it's okay for terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Al Quida along with the government of Iran to call for the extermination of Jews. I just don't understand why people like you can't get it. The actions that Isreal have taken are 99% defensive. Profiling those that are most likely to do harm to the general public is defensive. Killing jihadists before they kill us is defensive. Bottom line pinhead, if there weren't any terrorists we wouldn't need to protect ourselves against them. If you and people like you spent one tenth as much energy trying to convince the cowardly murderers to stop killing as you do making excuses for them, maybe this entire situation could come to an end in our lifetimes.

posted by  vwhobo

I'm also against what Hezbollah, Iran and Al Quieda are doing. Just when did I ever say it's okay for what Hezbollah are doing:ticking: ?? Just because I fear about the society further alienating muslims doesn't mean that we use Hezbollah's idea and destroy Islam. But of course people assume that if you don't agree on the idea of destroying Islam, you're supporting the actions of the enemies. You being the case.

posted by  fudge

Please direct me to where I stated or implied that Islam should be destroyed.

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Can't do it, can you? The reason is that I never have and never will. That kind of thinking simply doesn't wash with me, and your insinuation that I did is further proof that you are either unable or unwilling to look at the facts and are intellectually dishonest. What have you done today to try to make a jihadist change his mind? The likely answer is ABSOF*CKINGLUTELY NOTHING. You're too busy making excuses for why it's their right to kill innocent people to further their radical cause. Like it or don't little fella, if and when this is all over, you're going to find yourself on the wrong side of history.

posted by  vwhobo

Thats basically what ive been going at all along. Sure not all of them are terrorists, but when lets say 75% of their population has a plan to kill jews and other "infidels", and we wipe out the 75% the remaining 25% of their population will obviously be very upset, and start to do the same thing as the 75% did.

Killing them would basically be preventive measure, with a damn good reason.

posted by  newyorker

Treat others as you wish to be treated. Islam and Hezbolah have treated israel basically like shit, and now they are bitching that they are getting the same thing in return.

posted by  newyorker

Who gave anyone the right to be treated just like someone else? I know it says that in the Constitution, but it's not practiced over here anymore, and I don't know anyhting about GB, but I'm guessing that nothing gives anyone that right over there.


I'm not, I never said the Muslims need to be destroyed, I said Islam needs to be destroyed! In fact, I'd prefer for the Muslims to survive a destruction of Islam. Basically what I meant was that the idea of Islam needs to be destroyed.

posted by  jedimario

And your insinuation about me being Ok with what Hezbollah is doing doesn't wash with me either. If you even bothered to read Jedi's statement over the previous pages you'll find that he implied that Islam should be destroyed. BTW nice Gwen Stefani impression you did there.

People with equal hatred towards muslims(like Newyorker) isn't going to help things. If either side won't change then the war will carry on. The muslims also have to find a way of standing up against the radical extremists without the fear of being accused as traitorous by others, but by indirectly shunning them away from our society I doubt that'll ever happen.


Islam is the religion of muslims, as I asked before how would you go about in destroying it??

posted by  fudge

I have no idea, Muslims could convert, I suppose they could change Islam, idk. There really isn't any way to do it, but the world would be a better place if it did happen somehow.

posted by  jedimario

it would be a much better world if there were no such thing as "religion"

posted by  True_Brit

That's a broad statement, but hard to prove given most of us have some sought of spiritual belief, whether primal or institutional. If it wasn't for the Anglican religion we would probably all still be answering to a Papal monarch, worrying about crop rotation and fighting holy wars.

posted by  Wally

ok, point proven! sorry if i offended anyone in any way!:doh:

posted by  True_Brit

That doesn't mean to say I approve of various religions, especially those that entwine themselves with government at the expense of basic freedoms for the citizens. I have a hard time understanding how wearing a hat over ringletted locks, rocking back and forward in front of a wall and wailing lines from a book would make someone closer to God. Similarly I don't understand how a bedouin desert outfit, evolved to keep sand and heat off the head and body is made mandatory for religious nuts, even if they are no longer in the harsh environment that spawned it.

Someone raised the Indonesians and Malaysians as adopting Islam without violence, but for us oldies that were taught about other countries at school we know that the Arabian seafairers and traders were far from benign merchants.

posted by  Wally

Actually I'd agree with that for the most part. False religions can do good for someone as far as dealing with other people goes, I guess, but that's about all the good they do. And Christianity is technically a religion, I guess, but it's not about the religion at all.

posted by  jedimario

what i mean is that there would be less race hate/ religion hate incidents due to religion etc, like the scottish football league, Celtic v Rangers! one team are naturally catholic, the other christian and theres so many fights at the game there has to be a large riot police prescence

posted by  True_Brit

anyone else see the problem here?

posted by  windsonian

what do you mean? have i said something wrong, or not right???

posted by  True_Brit

Catholics are christians:doh: !! (I think you meant the other team was naturally protestants) And there's always some sort of grudge between certain football teams, Forest and Millwall for example.

posted by  fudge

thats exactly what i meant! :laughing: sorry......

posted by  True_Brit

By the literal definition of Christian, they aren't actually. Clicky (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIA,HPIA:200 6-29,HPIA:en&q=define%3A+christian)

posted by  jedimario

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/46994/Hizballah_Staged_Dead_Boy_For_Pre ss.html

posted by  newyorker

thats just so disgraceful!

posted by  True_Brit

so they're totally removing themselves from the church now? :roll:

posted by  windsonian

All's I know is that modern Catholics do NOT fit the definition of "Christian".

posted by  jedimario

Now that really doesn't make sense, as I see it all those definitions of christians you provided seem to fit the catholics:screwy: What are you on about when you say modern cathloics don't fit the definition of christians, do they not follow the teachings of jesus? Do they not celebrate easter or christmas?? What makes the protestants more christian than catholics??

posted by  fudge

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

posted by  ChrisV

Actually, most of their practices come from other relgions' influence when Constantine forced Christianity on his empire. Praying to the saints, confessing to priests, purgatory, and saint worship are all direct contradictions of Jesus' teachings, and the Bible in general.

posted by  jedimario

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