Follow up with Mexicans need Jesus too

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I will not re-open the original thread because I respect BavarianWheels

I saw no harm since this was posted in off topic. Although not as exciting, it had more thought then seeing a forum member model her underwear in post your pics. This may have offended one or two more religious members but they were tolerant. When moderating that thread, I tried to respect peoples rights but had to rein the in discussion when we were starting to cross the line between attractive/sexy pictures vs the accepted definition of pornography (and requiring U.S. mandated legal records be kept on the person in the picture).

I may have been the instigator here in the discussion but did not see harm in helping ChrisKnows understand the motivation for folks placing Bible tracs in cars. The discussion took a new turn but a good one. I saw no harm in 97Talonchik linking people to examples of the tracs so the forum could follow the discussion

Although probably not intentional ,one good thing this discussion did was to bring out differences in the culture in the Southern US Bible Belt (rural mid-west, Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, and surrounding areas.)

You folks are great and I appreciate us tolerating each other and trying to understand each other.

posted by  tbaxleyjr

It is interesting to see the differences between the bible belt and the Northeast. We rarely get people going door-to-door to convert others. I'm friends with some regular Christians (I'm Catholic) and they often try to get me to go to their mass. After one time, I politely decline, explaining that I'm already dodging my own church.:mrgreen: After a few offers I start to get mad, because to me it is as if somebody is constantly telling my beliefs are wrong and that theirs are right. Let's be honest, there are very subtle differences between Catholics and regular Christians. Further, it seems Catholicism does everything they do and then some. I'm not sure of my beliefs, but I am sure that a rapist who forms a relationship with Jesus gets into heaven while a genuinely good person who has no relationship with Jesus goes to hell/purgatory doesn't sound right to me. Seems like it's based less on merit and more on Jesus letting his buddies in.

On the other hand, if you're being good just to get into heaven, I believe you've missed something.

posted by  giant016

Accepting Jesus does not mean you get a free pass into heaven regardless of your sins however, it does open the door to salvation. If your a follower or not and weather you've accepted Christ or not, your actions have consequences. You still have to pay for what you have done. Accepting Christ means that you realize that you have been wayward and that you want to change things.

posted by  speeder

Appreciated.

I don't mean to say religion can't be discussed, but that when it becomes a thread to bash religion in a nasty way, then the thread gets closed.

As long as people remain civil and respectful of each other's beliefs in regard to religion, I'm all for allowing this "off topic" topic.
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posted by  BavarianWheels

I'm also a catholic and I am pretty tolerant when it comes to religion. (Dont get me started on politics though:orglaugh: )
I've never really lived anywhere where there were any catholic churches and my parents quit going to church but I wanted to keep going so I went with friends, I went to baptist churches, family restoration and all kinds of them. I figured some church was better than nothing.

Well boy was I wrong, Ive never been given so much grief.

I even went to a church camp with my buddy in middle school and as I pull in I see "Baptist Encampment" and I say OH SHIT.

The people I went with were very understanding and never mentioned me being catholic but a lady I sat next to at the tabernakle saw my bible and asked if it was a catholic bible, I told her I didnt know there was a difference but probably because Im a Catholic and she flipped and told me I needed to go to the altar to repint and convert so I woulndt go to hell.

They had a little problem on their hands after she said that to me.

I dont have anything against baptists just telling a story about a bitch who just happened to be baptist.

posted by  Enthusiast

I play basketball at a Cavalry Christian church, and they pretty much told me that if you accept Jesus you're in. I guess they're different from the general Christians.

posted by  giant016

CF's Most Controversial Member

posted by  chris_knows

traditionally, The Southern US has been predominately evangelical (Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, etc), Much of the Midwest is predominately Lutheran or Roman Catholic, Much of the Northeast is Roman Catholic or Jewish while much of the Great LAkes as well as the South Western US is predominately Roman catholic. Much of this is due to the traditions in the homelands of the folks who settled in those areas.

I am not too fond of religion bashing either because no denomination corners the market on heaven and eventually when we meet God at our death, (most all Faiths have this commonality), I seriously doubt the first question asked is are you Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, etc.? I seriously think the first question is whom do you place your faith regardless of the denomination and how you treated people on earth while you were there. Although I attend a Southern Baptist Church, I think a persons faith, whatever brand, is evidenced/reflected in their attitude towards life and how they respect and treat people.

I am embarrassed when a person of another Christian faith is told to repent just because they are Catholic or Orthodox.

A Note about the Bible - Just about all Christians believe there are 66 books in both the Old and New Testament which are inspired by God. There are several other books such as 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Judith and Tobit which some Christians believe are God inspired and others believe they are true but maybe not God inspired. Many arguments, fights, wars and discussions have occurred since about 500 AD about these books and I suspect there will be continued arguments. To the shame of the lady who told Enthusiast his Bible was wrong did not completely understand and probably needs to do some research and learn something about history.

posted by  tbaxleyjr

Again, its interesting how regional differences and culture impact beliefs

posted by  tbaxleyjr

Not a problem here... we're ranked 5th in the world for being unGodly, behind Russia, France, Germany and the UK . I'd like to know who those six people are that stopped us from getting first place and send them back to Iran.:mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

who knows?

posted by  tbaxleyjr

:clap:
I agree with the vast majority of that. Personally I don't believe it matters who (if anybody) you place your faith in. As you said, your religion is based largely on where you live and your upbringing. If you were born/raised in India you would probably have a different God. To me it boils down to a bunch of religions saying ours is the one true religion with 0 evidence to back it up, and sometimes even threatening eternal damnation becuase you don't see it there way.

And for the record I was also told my bible was wrong. Don't quote me, but I believe they were trying to tell me that the King James bible was the only one not tainted.

posted by  giant016

I believe God exists so that we have a sense of moral standards, so that we have a reason for life rather than to simply live, procreate and die. Without morals, we are savages. Without standards, we have chaos. I further find it morally offensive for anyone to say their religion is the only true religion. Religion today preaches hatred (in my belief) not the love and solidarity that it was intended to teach. Why scare people into a belief?

Whether it be Yahweh, God, The Holy Trinity, or Allah, they are all the belief in something greater than oneself that coexists with humanity to create morality and sensibility in an otherwise chaotic world. I do not believe in a specific religion, I believe in religion in itself. I believe that I can only live my life to the best of my ability and try to abide by things I would consider substantially and morally fulfilling. Though I may waver, it is the existence of free will and faith that allows me to find my way back. Not the fear of going to heaven or hell.

In essence, religion's foundation is the belief in following the golden rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". All the rest is glitz and glam.

posted by  97Talonchik

Just yesterday my boss was asking me about my religion. She is Catholic, and I am a rather strict protestant, people often think we are Mormon or Amish or similar. Just trying to answer some of her questions and explain some of our beliefs I realized that we have a vastly different view of religion. Even though we are both Christian and have the same fundemental beliefs (death in Adam, life in Christ) our whole view and approach is completly different. If anyone wants, I could try to explain some of the intricacies of our religion, but it is hard to do unless there are specific questions to answer.

We believe that our religion is the only true religion. We believe that there is no hope for catholics, or other religions. In fact we tend to view the pope as an anti-christ. That being said, we don't hate people from other religions. I think a classmate said it well a few years ago. She, being an irish catholic, and I a protestant, were talking to another person about how in ireland there were great religious battles between the protestants and the catholics. when asked how we could still get along as people, she replied that we dont hate each other, we each just disagree with the others religion. We look at people as people, not as religions. As a nurse, I don't refuse to care for a person of another religion, nor do I preach to them. If someone asks, I can do my best to explain my views to them, but I don't go knocking on doors telling people to repent. We tend to believe in more of a passive preaching, we let our actions do our preaching for us.

We believe that the King James version of the Bible is the only reliable translation of the Bible. We believe that removing the thees and thous from the Bible removes some of the substance of the Bible, and also removes some of the nature of respect. In prayer we never use you in reference to God, but rather use Thee or Thou, it gives a feeling of respect and formality.

posted by  dvdrose18

Well I see I got the other thread locked over some light hearted humor.:doh:

posted by  Spanky2324

If it was you, and frankly I don't remember who it was, it was not light-hearted at all. In fact, that will not be tolerated.

Thread going well so far...don't need "humor" of that nature.
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posted by  BavarianWheels

What was the joke?

posted by  chris_knows

But are rules really morals? I've pondered morality a bit, and to be honest religion seems lose a little ground everyday. Yes, I'll say the world is a better place overall with the weak people mindlessly following the Bible/other religions. And I DON'T MEAN all that follow the book are weak, but there are plenty of people that would gladly follow a book rather than actually think. That is not morality to me at all. In fact, once religion comes into the picture I usually consider any and every "good" action amoral.

Also, I'd bet the farm that without religion the world would not fall into chaos, if anything looking at the last few thousands of years religion has caused more chaos than prevented. I find it belittling to the human race to say that we couldn't be civil without religion.

Overall I'll agree with you, the golden rule is pretty solid, as long as you don't take it too literally if you're a masochist.:mrgreen:

posted by  giant016

See I had a Kings James Bible and she was still bitchin at me.

Part of me seriously wanted to light her on fire cause I can have a pretty short fuse on some things, I pretty much just gave her a few select words (not curse words surprisingly) to ponder on. I

posted by  Enthusiast

The catholics might know about World Youth Day currently in Sydney. The pope guy is here and decided to celebrate the World Ute Day as well:

posted by  Wally

I'm not saying religion is what keeps people sane (because case and point: Tammy Faye Baker), I'm saying religion was brought about to try and enact certain actions upon a group of people (whether it be malicious or not).

I absolutely agree with your stance on religion causing chaos. Take a look at the Crusades, or the Holocaust, or even what is going around us here today (i.e. Barack Obama's so called "roots" in the Muslim religion must make him a terrorist and bad guy). I think more what I was trying to say that the belief that there is a higher power might make people want to be better people who abide by standards such as "love thy neighbor", "don't kill", "don't cheat". I don't consider these religious standards, rather I consider them a good way to live. And just WOW to your masochism comment...:laughing:

I don't consider myself a religious person, as I don't attend church, nor do I pray or ask for forgiveness for my sins. I do try to do what is right, without embarrassing myself or my family. That is what I consider moral and virtuous. Not that if I do this, this and this...I'll get to sit on a bigger throne in heaven (oh yes, they preach this) or my crown will be bigger based on my actions, or my palace will be a certain type depending on my deeds. I was raised Catholic...(CONFUSING!!!) and later "repented" because they scared the crap out of me and went to a Southern Baptist church. I stopped going to organized religious events because I was appalled by the actions of these people who considered themselves pillars of the religious community.

From what I've seen in my short life, it seems those who preach the hardest, usually sin the most. You can count me out of all that mess. I'll be happy in my own personal relationship with God, Allah, Yahweh, Zeus...whatever is there, without going to an organized religion. People tend to skew things into what they want them to say, like certain passages in the Bible. Others want to believe some things in the Bible, but completely ignore others (i.e. that's Old Testament and doesn't count)...but then you mention the 10 commandments, which also were Old Testament and those are cool...but let's go to Iraq and do what? That's right, kill millions of people. Why? Because that's what good Christian soldiers do. Nevermind that "thou shall not kill" thing. It doesn't apply to religious war. :banghead:

posted by  97Talonchik

You hit the nail right on the head.

Religion for the sake of religion is worthless. Regardless of faith, people not living a lifestyle which reflect the beliefs or value system, is what turns away from religions.

97Talonchik - Your examples and comments are good - let me add a few more

Locally in Chattanooga, about the early 1990s there was a youth minister in a local church (a very conservative one at that) spent time in the State Prison for molesting kids, there was a music minister asked to leave a church since he fathered a child - either with someone besides his wife or out of wedlock. I knew a minister in another location who was caught dipping into the church finances for personal gain, another one who had an affair. I know deacons in Baptist churches whom have either had kids with other folks besides his wife. I have seen so much political posturing and positioning in church that one would think you were in a typical American corporation. The funny thing about this is each of these incidences involve Baptists or Baptist churches either in Chattanooga or the Knoxville TN area. Through the past few years many Baptists have become more and more fundamental in taking the Bible literally word for word as opposed to reading it as a whole book, understanding the historical context, and learning the message it has for us today when seen in the context of the day it was written. Note the Bible ( the RSV or New American Bible many English speaking Catholics nor does the King James, NIV, New American Standard or the Non Catholic version of the RSV most of the others of us use) has something to say against having affairs, killing people, stealing, dishonesty, wife beating, child molestation/child abuse and a host of other issues.

The reason churches are not surviving is many people in them do not practice decent life styles and treat people with dignity and respect - others make observations and ask what is really different then the outside world. Unfortunately, the answer has to speak for itself.

When I talk about this subject with my daughters, I have always told them to read the Bible from front to back, study the history and culture during the time periods and understand the world history, then form your beliefs based on what the Bible says and its message in its total context. I never want my daughters to blindly believe in anyone's dogma about faith, politics, or anything else without doing serious research and learning something about it first.

In any endeavor, taking scripture or anything else out of context to build beliefs or sell a political platform is dangerous. Always do the homework before forming beliefs and values what ever you do.

People seem to forget Christianity (I can speak a little more accurately about this than I can about Islam or other beliefs) is about the personal relationship with God - not about following a book of rules. If the relationship is in order, church or no church, the morals, lifestyle, respect for people, etc) will usually sort itself out.

posted by  tbaxleyjr

Religion can be just as dangerous as atheism. If a person is truly Christian, they wouldn't do immoral things. Also, in the 20th century, some of the worst people were atheists. Mao Zedong, Lenin, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler (I'm pretty sure). That's not saying atheism is bad, but you would have strife either way.

posted by  chris_knows

Actually, Hitler was a Christian (Roman Catholic) with a worldly view of the beliefs in the bible and Christianity, which in turn lead to his skewed belief that he had to rid all those who did not believe in the Christian God. He firmly believed he was mandated by God to eradicate all non-believers. This was part of his ability to win over so many people to the Nazi beliefs.

posted by  97Talonchik

No way Hitler was a Christian. He denounced it frequently and his actions backed that up. The belief system he had was superiority of the Anglo/Germanic races.

posted by  Wally

People will debate the fact of his beliefs. He was not always of the belief that the superior race were those of pure Anglo Germanic lineage. He didn't reach that belief until he was around 20 years of age when he encountered a man who spoke of the Nazi beliefs in a bar after the death of his father and mother. He was a very troubled young man, susceptible to just about any idea that would make he feel like he belonged.

He frequently spoke of God's will and his plan for him. I know many a Christian who's moral standards are far below those you would consider of someone who should be a Christian Soldier, yet they still consider themselves Christians. We may not want to believe that someone who truly believed in God could do such heinous things, yet they do. Again, that goes back to free will.

Of course there will be those who will fight the fact, as it looks bad on Christianity itself. I personally have unsettling thoughts of my own religion and actions of some of the people therein, does that make me not a Christian as well? You can read "Mein Kampf" (My Struggle) which was written by Adolf while he was in prison following the end of WWI in which he speaks frequently throughout of his beliefs.

posted by  97Talonchik

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

One can not deny Hitler misused Christianity for his political gains. and to a certain extent, the some of the religious groups were involved in it on the surface helped/legitimized Hitler's actions. The thing we need to understand is the motivations

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7337748.stm

This site from Rutgers University has some Declassified documents shedding some light on our U.S. Government's "spooks' analysis of the Nazi and church situation in World War 2.

http://www.lawandreligion.com/nurinst1.shtml

I hope historians who are qualified to use the archives @ the Vatican can help gain some understanding of the motivations behind some of the actions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5356862.stm

Eventually, though bad times in history, man/woman kind still has to have some hope that things will differ and be better in the future.

posted by  tbaxleyjr

I'm a hell of a lot more scared of a person who's fighting for their relgion than a person fighting for power. I also feel that if religion didn't exist, those figting for power wouldn't be threatend by the power religion has, especially in the old days. A battle for power only lasts as long as a dictator. Look at the struggle in the middle east. IIRC in the Jewish faith the world will only be complete when the third temple is built on th past sites of the first two, in Israel. However, at that very spot is one of the most prolific Muslim Shrines. Something like that will be fought until one side simply is no more; nobody is going to make a compromise. Dictators come and go in relatively the blink of an eye IMHO, and it is a lot easier to motivate people to do something for God than for their earthly ruler.:2cents:

posted by  giant016

It's really a shame that someone who probably means well is so terribly misguided and blind to the facts because they don't support her opinion.


1. Millions of people HAVE NOT been killed in Iraq during this conflict/war. Sorry, hate to burst your bubble and open your eyes little girl, but even the most far left "news" organizations can't get the total number od deaths including coalition forces and contractors much over 100,000.

2. Coalition forces, which are mostly American forces, are NOT "Christain soldiers" and this is NOT a religious war. Once again, facts that don't support your opinion. Sorry. You can point your whiney liberal finger at a lot of things as the reason that we're there, but religion isn't one of them.

I suggest that next time before you make statements as you did above, you do some fact checking. It might keep you from looking stupid. But I wouldn't count on it.


P.S. If you really hate your country as much as it seems from the tone of your post, I suggest you get on a plane and move to Iran or North Korea. I'll even pay for your ticket. I'm sure you'll have the freedom you enjoy in the USA that allows you to post the drivel that you do without fear of imprisonment or death. Think about it.

posted by  vwhobo

Rather than ignore you, I'll explain my posting (and risk this thread which is something actually going on on this forum getting locked yet again because I know you'll start flaming):

I'm not saying the soldiers who are over there are fighting a religious war, I'm saying the Christian organizations in America take this war as a fight against the "Muslim terrorists" and more often than not believe the war is a good thing, (i.e. "Christian Soldiers" not actual soldiers). These same Christians who claim to be pure in heart and "bible abiding" are okay with the fact that people are being murdered and believe this war is a good thing. I am in no way attacking the American Armed Forces so get your panties out a bind. I love America. I am afforded the freedom to express my opinion, just as you have the freedom to express yours. I firmly do believe this is a religious war, whether anyone else does or not. This is my opinion, not one formed by Fox News or any other media outlet. I don't watch that crap. For the record, I am not a Liberal. :thumbs:

posted by  97Talonchik

Are these the same Christian groups that elected the bloke who said this.

"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on --shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again."

and

"You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror."

:laughing:

posted by  Wally

Well, in fact you did ignore me... Or at least half of what I said. You ignored the fact that millions of people have not been killed in Iraq since the beginning of the conflict/war. But then I'm sure it would have been inconvenient for you to face the facts because they don't support your opinion. And on your accusation that I'll start flaming, you of course are entirely wrong. Don't make the mistake of stating your opinion as fact again.


You’re basing your entire argument on what? Your opinion? How does anyone make a coherent case against that? I served 23 years of my life so that people like you who are obviously uneducated on the subject can espouse your opinion, no matter how ignorant or devoid of fact it is, and not have to worry about the thought police (except those on this forum) won't come knocking on your door and take you away in the middle of the night.

I am retired military, my wife is active duty military and many of my acquaintances and customers fit into both of those categories as well. Additionally, although I don't have religion myself, living in the Bible belt the vast majority of people I know do. I don't personally know ANYBODY that thinks this war is a good thing and I bet neither do you.

Neccessary? Yep. Important? You betcha. Unfortunate? Of course. Good? You’re out of your mind. War, and all the terrible things that go with it is never ever good, and if you had even a shred of intellectual honesty you’d know that.

So you go right along living in your fantasy world thinking this is a religious war and that Christians think it’s good that we’re there. You go right ahead and continue spreading lies about others based solely on your opinion. You already have no credibility here based on this thread alone, so why stop now?.

And for the record, if you're not a liberal, based on your posts in this thread and your inability to deal in facts, you're the next closest thing. Have a nice day.

posted by  vwhobo

just to add my :2cents:
I have never myself heard that christians think of this war as a way of destroying muslim teritories, but anything is possible, all religions have there extremists. And for every "christian" that does think this way, there is a "christian" that views this war as God's punnishment to America for it abortions, and another that thinks that there should never be war of any kind.
Among my church, the general opinion is that all war is a necessary evil, the result of the fallen nature of the human race. As we speak, my cousin is training for another tour of duty in Iraq. We view the Iraq war as a response to the threat to our safety here in America. But to say Christians think this war is good because we are fighting Muslims is asinine. Sure, it is a good thing for my safety that we are fighting extremists there rather than here, but war in itself is never good.

As a side note, the sword does not convert people to a different religion, it just makes them try to fit in to survive.

posted by  dvdrose18

I base my opinion on what I've seen around me. Whether you believe that to be fantasy or fact is your opinion. I don't say things because they are the popular voicing of the group and (as I said previously) I've never been one to step down from my stance or views because people think I'm barking up the wrong tree. I'm entitled to believe as I wish to believe, like it or not, just as I respect your beliefs, like them or not. I don't go around calling people idiots, morons, uneducated, liberal (used as a derogatory term), a liar or anything of the like because they disagree with my stance on things or say things I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Regarding the "millions" comment, how do you know it hasn't been millions? You did not include those on the opposition in your numbers. I'm not simply speaking of Americans and their allies (plus contractors). I'm speaking of the people they fight over there as well as the civilians who also are affected by war. It may very well be millions. Unfortunately, no one seems to care about counting the Iraqi deaths/civilians. It looks like one group started around 2005 (stating 42000+ since 2005 documented deaths), but that number doesn't include the massive raid in 2003, which likely killed many people nor the missing.

posted by  97Talonchik

As I said, uneducated. Worse, instead of attempting to enlighten yourself on the subject, you prefer to remain ignorant of the facts. There are perhaps hundreds of websites available that have body count numbers for Iraq... All it takes is a modicum of intellectual curiosity and two minutes on Yahoo to find them. And as I stated previously, even the most far left, anti-war of them can't put the number much above 100k. If the Daily Kos, moveon.org and sites of their ilk can't come close to justifying seven digit numbers, how can you?

Oh, that's right, I forgot. It's your opinion.



Here, I'll make this incredibly easy for you. That way you don't need to take any responsibility for your actions. Look here for what is an almost universally accepted number. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ The only place I can find a number even close to what you're quoting is here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6998458.stm Of course, that's not based on hard numbers or fact... It's based on a survey of what people think the number is. Maybe you participated.

Have a nice day.



P.S. One last thing. I didn't call you uneducated, which is another fact that you'll no doubt be unable to accept. I very specifically said you were uneducated about the subject. Try reading, and comprehending, all of the words one time.

posted by  vwhobo

The swastika was derived from a catholic symbol.

posted by  Enthusiast

Try Hindu.

posted by  Wally

Hilter first saw a "swastika" in a catholic church as a boy.

Its called a hooked cross or twisted cross, and its a cross thats twisted, looks just like a swastika but the angles on the hooks arent 90 degrees the are about 45.

I did alot of research on the subject in middle school in GT but its hard to find information on it now, Ill try and find soemthing.

posted by  Enthusiast

I don't know for sure about Hitler seeing the swastika in church or not but can say it is Hindu in origin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4183467.stm

posted by  tbaxleyjr

Yah I know there is a hindu swastika but I remeber distinclty reading about a symbol that used to be used in catholic churches that resembled the swastika and it had symbols or letters at the end of each arm.

Then about a year ago I saw something about it on the discovery or history channel.

posted by  Enthusiast

I am not doubting you - I cant seem to find what I am looking for to back up if Hitler saw a swastika in church or not - This is a controversial topic and don't want to spout off rubbish

posted by  tbaxleyjr

I think you'll find the Nazi party adopted it for the same reason we were taught in the sixties = it was used as a tag by Austrian Aryan anti Jew groups before WWI. You have to understand that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was the big boy on the eastern European block pre WW1 (a legacy of the Napoleonic wars). Countries in that empire included... you guessed it Germany and Italy. So while it seems inconceivable that the country that begat Maria and Captain Von Trapp could be the nursery of facsism, the nazis and their swastika it is actually true.

This may not fit with revisionist historians, but there you go.

posted by  Wally

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