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Is rap the second language for retards?

posted by  Gator

I don't know if I would put it that way...
...but the majority of it shouldn't be referred to as 'music'.

posted by  Gothicaleigh

I don't undestand how people can not like one type of music so immensly as to insult it.

Personnally, I listen to every type of music out there; punkrock,underground hip hop, country, techno...Everything. If you think rap is so retarded I suggest you listen to something like Dead Prez, Diverse, or Immortal Technique. I agree that some of the rap you hear on the radio is nothing more then "I slap hoes and smoke on drough" but actual hip hop is very intelligent and uses music as a conduit to vent whatever feelings the artist has through stories of everything from ghetto (the actual one, not the one 50 cent talks about) life to love.

posted by  Zalight

I guess it is because of the Rap persona promoted by it's followers, the lyrics of the most popular "songs", the gangsta mentality, it's "role models"...

You want more reasons than that?

posted by  BavarianWheels

Wait, wait, wait...

There is a huge variety of rap out there, there is a big difference between gangsta rap, hiphop, and R and B. So you can't say that they are all bad, and all push an image of the gangster lifestyle.

posted by  Zalight

Well...the thread question is on rap and not on hip-hop or R&B.

posted by  BavarianWheels

But they are all lumped into the same group.

Kind of like how rock includes punk rock and classic rock.

posted by  Zalight

Some truth, however the stereotype fits quite well.

posted by  BavarianWheels

Really, really, REALLY off topic:

Hey bav, whats your favorite BMW of all time?

Just wondering. I recently got to test drive mine, an M coupe.

posted by  Zalight

The point hes trying to get across is that its ignorant to beleive in sterotypes. Regardless to how "well" they fit the subject at hand, its still ignorant. If you don't activley listen to all forms of rap, then you are'nt at any point in time inclinded to make a valuble judgment other than what you percieve to be associated with it. You may be right or wrong but eitherway its still very ignorant to incline judgment on something you don't understand.

There are lots of genres I don't generally listen to or understand but I'd never go as far as to say people who listen to it are retards. That would be ignorance. I may not understand it or like it, but I'm sure it has a purpose to someone else it would'nt exist.

Theres no point in defending any personal interest as it can be argued about untilt the end of time. The point at hand is'nt even don't knock it until you try it. I'm simply saying that its ignorant to judge something you don't understand or actively participate in. Not saying you're wrong, just pointing out the facts.

posted by  DSMer

Ignorance is trying to defend something that doesn't need defending.

Ignorance is denying the most public persona of a given genre of music and it's proponents.

My favorite BMW of all time:
So much power and agility back in the late '80's...of which even in today's market is quite capable of challenging and out-performing even the riciest of rice in stock form. :thumbs:

posted by  BavarianWheels

I was'nt defending anything. Its your belief that it does'nt need defending. I was simply stating that its very ignorant to incline judgment upon something you don't even understand.

Never denyed anything about a "public persona", but as you should know from your time on this earth. Not everything portrayed in the public eye is as it really is.

If all your grounds for disagreeing with something is what you hear about it or see from the "public eye", then I'm afraind you're at a very misconieved perception of it. That is ignorance. Knowing that everything is'nt what it is said to be and still continuing to believe in it.

posted by  DSMer

The same way they do it about cars. it's stupid, but not very surprising anymore.

Basically people don't have enough brainpower to like more than one thing at a time, so they have to hate everything that isn't their favorite in order to justify having that favorite. They can't just like something because they like it, they have to like something because they hate something else. And they have to search out reasons to jsutify that hate, usually those reasons are extremely specious at best.

posted by  ChrisV

Okay, all of you rap aficionados, give us some examples of artists and tracks that may change the general perception of rap (and please stick just to rap, R&B and hiphop, while related, are different forms of music). I'm always willing to try something new and like I stated in my first post don't believe that it all could be as horrible as what I hear on the radio, flipping past Mtv, and vibrating from that car next to me on the street.

Here's your chance. Prove your nay-sayers wrong.

posted by  Gothicaleigh

Typical aggressive closed mindedness. If someone doesn't hate something, then they must be devout fans of it.

I can say I like Rock, but not like every rock song. Conversely I can say I don't like a whole buch of rock songs, and not say I don't like Rock music. And your'e in effect saying, if someone likes rap, then they obvioiusly like ALL of it. A != B

Please tell us where your cut-offs for each are, so we don't inadvertantly give you one that you can dismiss as being one of the other... even a single artist will make an album with numerous genres on it (such as Outkast). I mean, "gansta rap" is only one genre within rap, but here we're trying to show that it ist't to people who really only want to argue about what constitutes a stereotype...

Jesus. How is it that I, one of the oldest HERE, am defending modern music choice?

posted by  ChrisV

Hold on. I just want a few examples of what is considered good rap.
A cigar aficionado obviously doesn't have to like all cigars to be one.
A automobile aficionado obviously doesn't have to like all cars to be one.
A literary aficionado obviously doesn't have to like or have read all written word.
If you don't have an example, you needn't have posted. Simple as that. I'm sure someone else will be willing to help me.

Just give me a track from the rap genre.
A talk, conversation, or discussion.
A form of popular music developed especially in African-American urban communities and characterized by spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a syncopated, repetitive rhythmic accompaniment.
A composition or performance of such music.

Whatever you believe fits that definition.

Where the hell did I stereotype all rap as "Gangsta rap"? Please show me because I seem to not recall my typing it.

If you read my original post, I did not agree with the statement the original poster made. Obviously it is you who wants to argue the point.
I'm asking for examples that may change people's minds about it.

So are you going to contribute something useful to this thread or continue with your fictional defense argument?

posted by  Gothicaleigh

You're not defending it. You're just keeping an open mind that people like what they like and just because you don't agree with it or dislike it does'nt mean you have to spawn hate against it or those whom participate in it.

You, unlike many other older people here have a quality that deserves respect. Open mindeness, not to sound like I'm kissing your ass but you're probably the first older person I've heard defend something that you don't necisarily agree with simply because you can appreciate individuality and respect the fact that people do participate in things you would'nt consider fun.

On the contrary. It its you who should'nt have posted. Tell me if you can't conclude on your own what is considered "good rap" how can you actively participate in a subject that revolves arround rap? Can you tell somone how an intake works if you don't have a clue what part of the engine it is? I think not...

You can't define a personal interest, you can only generalize and guestimate what the general public of that personal interest participates in. Car Customizer could be somone who customizes cars to obtain speed, style, or sound. Obviously you're not going to find that all customizers do all of the above. Therefore a set definition can't define an indefinite variable of possibilities.

Maybe you should take a step back upon what you said. You're the one causing the "fictional defense". Why should any "rap aficionado" have to proove to you why thier music is good? Why can't you determine that for your own? Are you so inept that you can't conclude whats good to you on your own. So inept that you need the opinion of another person to tell you whats good and whats not? If thats the case then I can only be inclined to believe that your also obtuse enough to believe that something is bad because somone elses opinion says it is. Start thinking for yourself and them maybe your opinion would hold a little more value....

posted by  DSMer

I already gave some good examples, but in case you dont wont to go back and look: Diverse, Dead Prez, Immortal Technique

posted by  Zalight

Honestly I would be hard pressed to name rap lyrics that made me think, 'You know, this is good stuff.' However, just like any other genre of music, the best examples often go unknown to the general public, so I figured seeing as some here were rather vocal in it's defence that they may know of better quality examples than what most of us encounter everyday.
I can participate because I have heard rap. What I have heard so far is not agreeable to say the least. Unless I know where to look for this elusive 'good rap' you speak of, chances are I'm not going to come across it.

If you never come in contact with the engine, how will you ever learn how that intake works? ;)

That is the dictionary definition of rap that I posted. Seeing as you obviously have a much better understanding of the english language than my source, how would you define it?

I wasn't asking for proof. I was asking for examples.
I am sure it's out there somewhere...

Seeing as what I hear of it day to day is pure crap, my opinion of it would be that it's crap.
Now, I understand that may be a huge generalization based on limited exposure so I asked for what was considered 'good rap' from the people who may be interested in it. You have to start somewhere.

A tad argumentative on this forum are we?

Thank you.
Any specific tracks that may stick out in your mind that I should try first?

posted by  Gothicaleigh

I sent off an email.

Give me examples of anti-stereotypical rappers of which are promoted as much as the stereotypical rapper.

posted by  BavarianWheels

Honestly I would be hard pressed to name rap lyrics that made me think, 'You know, this is good stuff.' However, just like any other genre of music, the best examples often go unknown to the general public, so I figured seeing as some here were rather vocal in it's defence that they may know of better quality examples than what most of us encounter everyday.
I can participate because I have heard rap. What I have heard so far is not agreeable to say the least. Unless I know where to look for this elusive 'good rap' you speak of, chances are I'm not going to come across it.
I never spoke of any "good rap". Thats something you came across on your own behalf. Lets not confuse whos who here...Up and till this point of time I've neither said I like nor dislike rap. So what exactly are you expecting me to give you? The point of this entire thread is'nt for me or anyone to convince your or anyone else that rap is good. Thats something you must conclude on YOUR own. The door for that is allready open. You have just as much ability as any "rap aficionado" to go out and purcahse CD's and discover underground rappers.

If you never come in contact with the engine, how will you ever learn how that intake works? ;)
You're missing the original point at hand. The point is, if you don't know anything about what a group of people are talking about, how can you openly discuss it? The answer is you can't. Unless you're spewing bullshit.

That is the dictionary definition of rap that I posted. Seeing as you obviously have a much better understanding of the english language than my source, how would you define it?
Again, another one of your assumptions. I neither said I like nor dislike rap so how would you know that I have another definition for it? Simply because I know that a personal interest can't be defined I automaticly have to know what rap is? Thats just how simple minds work. If I'm defending it I have to agree with it. Have you ever thought that I can just simply accept the fact that people listen to music I don't and not call it crap because I don't understand it? Or is that beyond your band of perception?

I wasn't asking for proof. I was asking for examples.
I am sure it's out there somewhere...
What do you think those examples are for? To openly stand in the cold? No you're asking for proof for somone to validate their own personal interest. I say they don't need it just because you have to find reasons to prove your hate for something.

Seeing as what I hear of it day to day is pure crap, my opinion of it would be that it's crap.
Then thats your opinion. Stick to it and stop trying to act as if you're here to change the general population of non rap listeners.

Now, I understand that may be a huge generalization based on limited exposure so I asked for what was considered 'good rap' from the people who may be interested in it. You have to start somewhere.
As ChrisV pointed out, liking one thing from one group does'nt always mean you like them all. "Good rap" from one person won't be "good rap" to other people. Its something you must conclude on your own. Someone elses opinion should'nt decide where yours starts.

A tad argumentative on this forum are we?
I beleive that you're missing the entire point at hand here. I'm not here to justify rap in any way shape or form. I'm not attempting to sway your opinion on it. I could really care less what the hell you think. Only small minds would waste time defending a personal interest. Theres always someone whos going to disagree. The point entails is that how simpleminded people like you and other could be. So obtuse that you can only like one thing and that anything else is crap, stupid, or any other dumbfounded reason you may find to justify your liking for something.

ChrisV made it appearently clear when he simply said its just like cars. There are people who like imports and go their lenghts to defame every other form of automaker out there to justify why they like imports. Why should it be any different with music...?

posted by  DSMer

Rap = catering to the lowest common denominator. Absolute rubbish and juvenile.

posted by  Wally

Racism extends to even music, bottom line. You don't like rap because it is not your "cup of tea."

Acceptable reasons to not like certain types of rap:

It portrays and promotes negative images and stereotypes of a certain type of people.


Unacceptable reasons to not like certain types of rap:

What ever your reasons are.

It's not even rap or hip hop it's the artists, and guess who signs them?
Like Kanye West said in so many words nobody wants to sign a rap artist that wants to talk about good things or promote religion, they want somebody that is willing to sell their soul to get out of the hell hole they are living in, sad but true.

You see what record execs want you to see, a bunch of thugs drinking beer and selling drugs while smacking there 12th "baby mama." There are plenty of good rappers out there that want to promote a positive message. So instead of being a sheep why don't you lend a hand and ask why is it you are being force fed the BS when you could be getting some real hip hop.

You want some examples give me an AIM s/n I'll send you some good examples. There's a guy where I'm from that is getting really popular in the underground scene Brother Ali. Check out his songs "Picket Fence", "Rain Water" and "Win some, lose some." You can find them on kazaa more than likely or I can send them to you. There are plenty more, but those are some good ones to start with.

I'm definatly not trying to insult you, I just hate to see people so blind to the truth, and so adamant about it at that. Imagine someone comparing John Denver to Marilyn Manson. Or Staind's "Break the Cycle" (which I like) to maroon 5's "Songs About Jane." or better yet, just because some rock groups like Bound for Glory spread messages of hate does that make rock hate music?

Hopefully you can see what I'm getting at.

posted by  Swift

Most people choose sides. It's either you like rap,rock or even pop. Most people aren't fence sitters, they choose sides based on their interests and their perception on "music"

Which ever side you take, in my opinion will always be the good ones and the badass ones. For example rock : in this genre there are the good rockers like creed and staind. The badass ones being like metallica and iron maden. Most of rock soothes the soul but there are some that turn you from good to evil. Marylin Manson for example, he just freaks me out.

On rap, there are the good guys and the no good thugs who are a bad influence on today's youngsters.

The good rappers such as Will Smith, Run DMC,Nas, P.Diddy etc. In their albums teach poeple that you don't have to swear and use profound language to get your message across. In one of Nas's albums on of his songs was about advise to youngsters telling them to stay in school and stay away from drugs as they aren't the sollution.

Whoever there also bad rappers, the scum of the earth in my book... such as Ja Rule, Eminem, Fat Joe etc.

So you see there is always ood and evil. There is always two sides to a stor no matter which way you look at it.

posted by  speeder


posted by  Swift

Some good tracks:

Immortal Techniques- Dance with the devil
seems evil and sad at first but really hes saying to stay away from the things hes done or you to will "dance with the Devil"

Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5- It's like a jungle
Old school but a good example of true hip hops message, trying to survive in a harsh life.

Anything by the one and only, the great , KRS-one
He is the epitomy of hip hop, trying to convince the masses to educate, and rise above the oppression of anyone trying to keep you down in his words: "you must learn"

posted by  Zalight

ok i didnt bother reading everything since i noticed a lot of close mindedness throughout the whole thread.

rap.... in simple terms, its a form of communication and expression of the artists' ideas and opinions (mostly), just like any other type of music genre.

i personally like rap in all of its forms, it just depends on my mood which do i prefer to listen to at any given time (reggeaton, gangzta rap, etc.).

now, some good example would be Eminem (he sings hip hop, rap, tries to sing R&B whenever he sings about his daughter Hailey, just doesnt have the voice but has a good meaning with the songs). ppl often criticize him for the way he sings in SOME songs. who didnt get a good laugh out of "Without Me"? it was plain hilarious. true, that was hip hop, but he is also classified as a rapper by the music industry, n he has nuthin to do with being a thug or a gangster.

another example, Ludacris. hes a rapper and sometimes he produces lyrics that are quite catchy and the videos are quite entertaining to listen along.

now as for the bass in other cars that u claim that disturbs u (or wateva the case). well, just yesterday i was with my friend in his 93 eclipse with the bass quite hard, and guess wat we were listening to that made other cars stare at us while their windows vibrated? Korn.... a Korn cd. Korn's Greatest Hits to be exact. in fact, my friend Juan, the one with the black Tiburon that lives in my building as well, turns up his bass while listening to salsa or bachata (not all the time, just when hes feeling melancholic).

this is just more evidence to prove that all of this, "oh, gangzta rap is listened to while making ur whole car break down from all the vibrations due to the damn bass" is just more stereotypical points of view from ignorant ppl who dont accept other's opinions, nevertheless respect them.

posted by  Inygknok

Absolutley true. I've bumped just about every genre of music in my car from Heavy Metal, Alternative Rock, Classical, Jazz, Rap, to Techno. I agree Rap is'nt the only music that can be loudly played.

posted by  DSMer

My middle finger...in simple terms is a form of communication and an expression of.... :laughing:

posted by  BavarianWheels

I've come to appreciate rap even more in just the last couple of days. (I've always liked it). I just drove 1300 miles in a 24 hour period and at some point, the only thing that could keep me awake was the hiphop on the radio. Sure, some of my favorite songs came on from other genres, but there's nothing like bouncing around to your favorite lyrics. I even listened to some of the racy ones I'd normally flick off in an instant just to go, "OMG, they let them sing that on the radio?!?!?" :laughing: But then again the most outrageous one I did hear wasn't rap at all; has anyone heard this song where the singer claims he smokes two joints all day? The funniest line IMO was, "I smoke two joints before I smoke two joints..." No way in hell would they allow that to be played on the radio where I'm at. :orglaugh: What fun.

As for rap being retarded, I guess I don't quite know what that means. If I don't like any particular lyrics I just turn off the source. Other than that, I'm not exactly listening to music to get educated, I'm trying to get entertained. So the whole concept doesn't make any sense at all. Same way some people complain about some TV shows, that they are dumb and not true to life. Hello?!?! Use your damn imagination. If you're looking to get educated go to work or sign up for a class. Other than that, I'm in total agreement with Swifty. If it's not your "cup of tea," move the hell along and leave the rest of us alone, Mr. or Ms. High-and-Mighty-too-good-for-rap :roll:

posted by  JaneiR36

Hey whatever floats your boat. If thats what you beleive it to be, who is anyone else to tell you you're wrong? :thumbs:

posted by  DSMer

The song your talking about is called " smoke two joints " by sublime.

posted by  Zalight

which is a good band and song.

oh, and i dont like rap :thumbs:

posted by  Low Impedance

well then what about sublime? They rap...well sort of. Its kinda a mix of rap reggae and punk rock.

posted by  Zalight

thats koo. in fact, some ppl even look past music such as drum and bass..... i dont know wat part of "BASS" they dont get...... or maybe its the "drum" or the "and" part.....

posted by  Inygknok


By sublime?
Maybe they covered it, but it was created by The Toyes'

on a side note, I present a challenge to all of the people bashing rap

Instead of demanding that a less narrow minded person find lyrics that would redeem rap as "good" music, I request of you to find lyrics that justify your opinion on the genre
Don't use google

Can't recite them without using google? Then maybe you don't know enough about rap to judge it.

posted by  Spitsign

Yea sublime covered it. They're version has gotten much more airtime on mainstream radio, so I figured thats the one she heard.

They give props to the toyes though, the last song on the same cd.

posted by  Zalight

I am not a huge fan of rap but some of it is quite good:

Tribe Called Quest
The Roots
Sublime (sort of)
Jurassic 5
Black Eyed Peas

but some of the more heavy "gangsta"-rap doesn't have any benefit to me.

posted by  boothe

i just don't understand rap. I listen to everything else, coutry, rock, classic rock, 80's, punk, ska, emo, but when i hear rap i want to take a razor and slip my wrists.

i mean who names their band "niggas with attitude" and sings songs that say "**** da police"

posted by  carls47807

a lot of "rap" nowadays isnt anything else but mearly talking about the money and the bitches with a beat behind it... in the 80s and up to the mid 90s, where some actual work was put into it... that was rap

posted by  mazda6man

Hmm, i have to find some lyrics by immortal technique about this, he talks about the same things you guys are (which is why I reccomended him)

Ill have them up by tommorrow.

posted by  Zalight


Cypress Hill? MC Hammer? Easy-E? Who we talking about here?

posted by  boothe

Hes talking about current rappers, like nelly, 50cent, etc.

posted by  Zalight


Brendas Gotta Baby-Tupac

posted by  L2006

Is the new 50 cent out yet? Saw some special about his house party for the release or something... didn't know if its actually out? if so, any good?

posted by  boothe

I think most of the people who are talking in this topic are anti-rap. I like rap myself so I'll stay out of it.

BTW, I haven't heard anything about his new CD. Im not really big on 50, but I do like Eminem and Dre.

posted by  Satty101

rap is one of the best things to happen to music, all other kidsn of music need a beat, but in rap you take a beat and then rhyme around it, but if you take th ebat away it still be sick sptting.

rap is good, as long as you dont take it serisouly. dont guy guns, dont shoot anyone, you will go ot hell.

posted by  Stem

Gotcha. Asked a friend later, I guess it is out, but no real reviews. Eminem is good sometime, his new album was a little weak, but the Toy Soldier remix is pretty good.

posted by  boothe

In my opinion, rap isnt the best type of music to me. I prefer metal and hard rock. I listen to artists like Eminem and Snoop Dogg sometime, but the majority of my music collection is NOT rap.

posted by  jdubya

Allright I finally found my Immortal Technique CD...so here is that quote on mainstream Hip-Hop:

"To all these bitch ass A&R's who are too lazy tocome up with a way to sell records, so they keep recycling marketing schemes and imagery. Come on, there's a market for everything man, there's a market for pet psychologists nigga, there's a market for twisted shit fetish videos, for river dancing, for choclate covered roachs, but you can't find one for cultured hard core reality in hip-hop?

People like you, the house nigga executives and them rich mother ****ers that own you, you the mother****in machine man. You and all these niggas talkin about the smae shit with the same flow over the same candy ass beats. But I refuse to feed the machine. And Im not giving any magazines money, so maybe my album won't get 5 mics, or double XL's, or 5 discs...whatever man.

But then again you don't own me, and none of you niggas ever will. If im feelin what you fight for Im rollin with you to the end. But if not then **** you.

Andthe more that emcees, DJs and independent labels start to grasp the actuality of what thier contribution to the buisness of hip hop is, rather than just the music, the more the industry will be forced to change"

posted by  Zalight

tupac, dre, nas, eazy-e(sometimes),scribe(nz artist), p-money(another nz artist), eminem, run DMC, dilated peoples. i like rap but there are some rappers that are just plain shit like Ja Rule and that Fat Joe dude doesn't make sense. some rock is preety good, like linkin park and some that i dont know(i just listen to them on my frends i-Pod) so there you go

posted by  ahoo

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