Fuel Pump on 97 Talon ESI

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:ohcrap: Hello. I have a 1997 Eagle Talon ESI, and a while back had to get a new fuel pump put in it. Today I took it to get the Emissions Tested on it and it failed the test stating EVAP System Small Leak Detected (which albeit could be about a million things). Right now, it is sitting at the repair shop waiting to get looked at. My question is, could the fuel pump be causing this problem? I know in the Turbos of the same year it is located under the back seat behind the driver, is this also true for non-turbos? Something has been leaking there and I don't want to assume it is the fuel pump if perhaps it is not. I appreciate any help on this... :screwy:

Eagle Talon ESI 2.0 L DOHC, 4 cylinder automatic transmission

Recent repairs include:
New fuel pump- 2003
Engine replaced (used)- 2004
Starter replaced- 2004

posted by  97Talonchik

Most late model cars have the fuel pump in the gas tank. If you have seen a leak in the fuel system then that is probably the cause of the fault. It might be the rubber type line going from the frame to the tank or it might be the metal line rusting away. Or not.

posted by  srober32

or some genius friend thought he'd do you a favour and make sure those huge subwoofers dont fall out of your car so he whips out his trusty self tapping screws and screws them right into your gas tank and because it's a VW corrado it's 700$ from the dealer, or when they put your new fuel pump in, they left a line off, evap codes can be caused by a leak in the fuel system, most off the times it's from the people who go to gas up at the pumps and take the cap off only to realize the tank is on the wrong side so they get in car fire it up and go to the other pump with the gass cap off, that will throw a check engine light and give you an evap emmissions code. i would check with the shop that did the fuel pump job, but if you noticed the leak after the job was done and didn't go back to get it taken care, they might not warrenty there work so....good luck oh and by reading your post farther, the used engine job you had put in was most recent and they could have left something off.the options here are to much to type out so hope any of it helps

posted by  BanffAutoSpa_ap

Ok, I took it back to the repair shop that put in the pump and they said they would look into it. I picked it back up yesterday and they said the EVAP code was cause by the gas cap, so they replaced that. I know I have to wait for a few days for the drive cycles to reset, but the stupid check engine light came back on and has yet to turn back off. When I asked them if they checked out the pump, they didn't answer me, but stated the leak on my backseat was probably from water (umm....right) that settled in the seat and evaporated. Funny, I've never seen water turn a sheet to dust before. I think I'll just run my car off the cliff, it'd probably be cheaper, lol. :banghead:

posted by  97Talonchik

Sorry to hear about your problem. Well it depends on the kind of insurance you got on your car whether or not its worth running off a cliff, and if you plan on doing it then try not to spread the word lol. You could always hide it somewhere and report it stolen then collect insurance and part out the car afterwards. :laughing: :banghead: I know, i'mno help, just trying to lighten the mood.

posted by  car_crazy89

LOL....all I can do is laugh about. Hey I have acts of God on my insurance...say hmmm if I was to happen to accidentally be chopping down a tree and ooops it fell on my car....
Seriously, I tried to talk to repair shop into "driving it away" for me....they didn't take me serious though. :laughing:

posted by  97Talonchik

Well i'd do it for you, as long as you gave me enough time to get far enough away :laughing:. Its good you can laugh about it though, good luck with the tree idea :thumbs: lol.

posted by  car_crazy89

I wonder what would happen if I accidentally ripped out the OBD-II system, lol. I'm kidding.
Ok but for real, the check engine light is back on again, so apparently the "diagnostic" that was run on it was wrong. Question though, how long is a typical drive cycle reset? I suppose it depends on the car but if the problem was fixed the light should have come on and gone back off right?

posted by  97Talonchik

I would disconenct the battery for about 20 mins that will kill the power to the computer an it would purge the codes Thing is if the light comes back on They didnt fix your problem. An if your luck is like mine then the tree idea.. I wouldnt go with it would end up landing on your house or your neighbors car. I am in the middle of a war with my olds an I am to the point of driving it into Lake Mead (Yes I am in Lost Wages NV) lol

posted by  DarkMan

as far as i know, if the problem was fixed, the light shouldn't have come on in the first place. diconnecting the battery won't clear codes in an obdII car, either. "small leak detected" doesn't necessarily mean fuel leak. it could have a vapor leak in one of the hoses or a hose disconnected or a bad fuel tank pressure sensor or even a bad wire. the shop just needs to look harder. (it could even be a bad seal betw/ the fuel pump and the tank)

posted by  dodger65

I told the you know whats to friggen check the pump but they didn't. "SUPPOSEDLY" they ran a diagnostic on it (which I paid for so they better have) and it returned the code for the gas cap...however...I didn't think gas caps friggen gave codes to computers....but what do I know, I'm not ASE certified :doh:. Yeah, he's right, all disconnecting the battery will do is irritate me with a loud alarm like noise (yeah what's up with that, lol). I'm sure the car has been sufficiently driven long enough to have the drive cycle reset and it was also driven at highway speeds, so that is not an issue. They just need to friggen do their job and fix it right the first time. :cussing:

posted by  97Talonchik

gas caps don't give codes, that's the pressure sensor i was referring to. if the gas cap is loose or off, or if there is some other way that the proper pressure isn't being maintained (cracked hose, etc), then the pressure sensor will tell the 'puter to set a code. have them check the tank vent hoses. if one was loose or off, that would cause that code, too.

posted by  dodger65

Yeah, I just found this when looking for service bulletins, maybe print and hand to them.
EVAP System - Leak Detection Pump Misdiagnosis
NUMBER: 18-01-00
GROUP: Vehicle Performance
DATE: Feb. 4, 2000
SUBJECT:
Misdiagnosed Leak Detection Pump Systems With DTC P1494, P0442, P0455, OR P0456
MODELS:
1997 - 2000 (AB) Ram Van
1997 - 2000 (AN) Dakota
1997 - 2000 (BR/BE) Ram truck
1998 - 2000 (DN) Durango
1997 - 2000 (FJ) Avenger/Sebring/Talon
1997 - 2000 (JA) Cirrus/Stratus/Breeze
1997 - 2000 (JX) Sebring Convertible
1997 - 2000 (LH) Concorde/Intrepid/LHS/3OOMNision
1997 - 2000 (NS) Town & Country/CaravanNoyager
1997 - 2000 (PL) Neon
1997 - 2000 (PR) Prowler
1997 - 2000 (SR) ViperNiper GIS
1997 - 2000 (TJ) Wrangler
1999 - 2000 (WJ) Grand Cherokee
1997 - 2000 (XJ) Cherokee
1997 - 1998 (ZJ) GrandCherokee
DISCUSSION:
During evaporative system diagnosis, Leak Detection Pumps have mistakenly been replaced. A thorough inspection for pinched, kinked, or disconnected supply vacuum lines (as currently listed in the Powertrain Diagnostic Procedures) is a critical step in diagnosing DTC P1494 (LDP SW OR MECHANICAL FAULT). Additionally, the other evaporative leak faults (DTC P0442 - SMALL LEAK, P0455 - LARGE LEAK, and P0456 - VERY SMALL LEAK) should have the supply vacuum lines examined for pinches or kinks prior to any LDP component replacement.
The supply vacuum lines should be checked from the engine compartment all the way to the fuel tank, including the LDP and purge system.
NOTE: VERIFY ALL RELATED SUPPLY VACUUM LINE ROUTINGS FOR PINCHES, KINKS, OR DISCONNECTION'S BEFORE REPLACING LDP SYSTEM COMPONENTS.
POLICY: Information Only

posted by  97Talonchik

i'd DEFINITELY print it and hand to them...

posted by  dodger65

if i were you i would go back a nicely( i say nicely for a reason cuz if you come off as a real bitch and frustrate them it will only make it worse) just go back and say well my light came on again so there is another problem, so the diagnostic charge you paid should cover this trip back to them and just be honest and tell them they misdiagnosed it and would appreciate it, if it was checked again, if it were my shop youd be in the door in seconds and i would take as long as it took to fix the problem because simply put they ****ed up and suck and diagnostics, if they make you pay again then screw it, the just wanna take your money and don't care about your buisness, and if i was in that situation they would be getting a couple rocks through the windows ;)if you came here id do it for free just to show you that there are good mechanics still out here and some of us do care,(and know how to properly fix vehicles) Karma will eventually claim them all!

posted by  BanffAutoSpa_ap

LOL. I don't really plan on being a beyotch or anything. I'm actually a nice person. The only reason I took it back there in the first place is because they were the ones who put the fuel pump in and the warranty on it would be null and void if that turned out to be the problem and anyone else did any work on it. I asked them to call me before they did any work on it and they didn't. They ran a diagnostic and changed the gas cap. Granted they only charged me half price for the diagnostic, I still payed $44 for a gas cap. If they actually ran a diagnostic on it, does it give a printout and if so, should I request that?

posted by  97Talonchik

some shops can printout the diagnostics, most techs will just write the codes down and view the live data stream as they diagnose so there isn't much to printout, i would have them do it again for free because they did not fix the problem plain and simple,

posted by  BanffAutoSpa_ap

I took the car to AutoZone and had them run the diagnostic on it again (since it's free there) and it came up the same code. He went ahead and cleared the code back off. While I was there, I went ahead and got some refrigerant with no leak in it, added it, and since then the light has not come back on. That was Sunday. Could the a/c have thrown an EVAP code? I thought the a/c was HVAC...I don't know. :screwy: What I do know is I'm going to wait about a week and see what happens before I take it back to get tested and make sure the drive cycles have reset.

posted by  97Talonchik

i have a feeling the light will come back on, do you remember what the exact code your getting.. the number and all. i would say no the a/c system is a completely different system and shouldn't be tied in with the evap components but ive seen wierder stuff happen.

posted by  BanffAutoSpa_ap

DANGIT BANFF...lol....you jixed me. :banghead: Yeah the stinking light came back on today on the way back to work. It's gotta be some kind of leak in the EVAP but where oh where can it be. I suppose I could have the smoke test done on it, but how much does that cost typically?

The code is: P0442 EVAP system small leak detected :screwy:

posted by  97Talonchik

i wouldn't know ive never seen a leak thats that hard to find, that you would need to get out a smoke machine.

posted by  BanffAutoSpa_ap

Disconnecting the battery on an OBD2 system will not clear codes

posted by  tbaxleyjr

lets apply some common sense before having a smoke test done - inspect all of the lines for cracks, breaks, not being connected from the intake manifold to the charcoal can to the fuel tank.. If this doesn't find the problem, a good shop manual for your Talon will provide the test procedures for checking the control valve (usually a solenoid valve controlled by the ECM) for leaks

posted by  tbaxleyjr

Thanks, I'll have all the lines inspected....I know typically it's just something like a kink somewhere. I'll update on Tuesday or Wednesday when I know more.

posted by  97Talonchik

Update:

I took my car back in to the shop today. I spoke with the mechanic who worked on it and he said he checked the lines, etc. already but did not check the fuel pump to make sure the seal was good (as I requested in the first place) :screwy:. So, he said he would check it this time and is going to run the smoke test on it for FREE then get back to me. I also discussed the TSB's I found with him. I think they think I'm retarded now, but hey whatever fix my friggin car. :laughing: I'll let you know when I hear something. :thumbs:

posted by  97Talonchik

Thanks for the u/d Talonchik, contrary to popular belief, we are concerned about the outcome of the posts on this site. :thumbs:

posted by  srober32

More info:
The smoke test was completed and no leaks were detected, so he says it has to be the LDP (leak detection pump). Which he also stated is $233 to replace, $171 for the pump and $62 for labor. I think I'm getting screwed... :banghead:

posted by  97Talonchik

By the sounds of it it wouldnt be the first time (that may sound bad but i dont mean it in a dirty way lol). Hopefully if you pay that then it will actually solve your problem. Maybe if you flirt a bit with the Mechanic he'll give you a little deal :laughing: :hi:

posted by  car_crazy89

i would think there has to be some way to test the pump besides process of elimination... :banghead:

posted by  dodger65

That's what I would think......furthermore.....do you think I could get one of those from a junkyard and if I did do you think it would work? I mean like would it be worth saving a few bucks? I tried to find a better price online somewhere for a LDP, but I can't seem to locate any. :screwy:

posted by  97Talonchik

Ehhhh, maybe you shouldn't look into junkyard parts, if you want something cheaper, look into used parts that come with warrenty's

posted by  99integra

That's the problem...I can't even find the part PERIOD. Apparently Chrysler is the only company that has Leak Detection Pumps?? :screwy:

posted by  97Talonchik

Well that sucks, the junkyard one would be an option, I guess there is nothing wrong with doing that its just that I like to buy new or used parts with a warrenty on them so I don't have to worry about the costs of repairing it. :2cents:

posted by  99integra

I don't know...I think I'll just take it to my mechanic see what he thinks.

posted by  97Talonchik

You just got one mechanics opinion :wink2:

posted by  99integra

UPDATE:

Get this. They tell me the LDP is $170 right? Chrysler is the only one who has LDP's. Being the super-anal person I am, I call Chrysler's part department just to check the price they quote me on an LDP. Guess what, it certainly wasn't $170. I called 3 dealerships and all three told me $110 for the part. Now where in the world does the other $60 come from? Hmmm.

I also was able to get the OEM's from them. I did an online search for the part and found a brand new one for $72. GO ME...lol. I did get a chance to speak to one of the tech's there and he said it could also be the Duty cycle purge solenoid which I was quoted $37 from Chrysler and found it as well online for $23. He said those can also cause that code as the solenoid is the thing that controls the LDP (it sits right on top of it).

Do you think it's worth replacing that first or should I take my chances and replace the LDP? How complicated would it be to replace (for instance I am wondering if I want to take on the task myself). :smoke:

posted by  97Talonchik

i would say do it yourself but i don't know how involving the job is, that would be the only way to avoid some punk basterd know it-all misdiagnosing your car and replacing whatever he thought was the probllem, your on the right track...and the price changes were probably parts guys just trying to make some money off the mark-up

posted by  BanffAutoSpa_ap

Like I said earlier...I felt like I was getting screwed, that's why I double checked. I kindly went today and told them, "gee, I don't think I can afford that repair at this time, but thanks for looking!" :mrgreen:

posted by  97Talonchik

nice.... thats what i said to the H&R block guys when they were gunna do my taxes and said i would get a whopping 400$ back, i double checked then went back.... i wasn't as nice as you though i asked the guy what he would benefit from scabbbing me outa of about another 1200$ he had no answer so i told him to stick it where the sun dont shine and i did em my self.... but i still havent gotten em back and am probably getting audited now....poop :doh:

posted by  BanffAutoSpa_ap

:laughing: sucks to be you

posted by  97Talonchik

Haynes, Chiltons, All Data publish manuals with the dignostic procedures for the car

Then leak detection pump baffles me since most evap. fuel emmissions control systems are engine vacum,e driven systems controlled by a couple of solenoid valves.

posted by  tbaxleyjr

I actually found the original Factory shop manuals (1 & 2) on Ebay for $30. I needed them anyways and it was a REALLY good price! Yes, the LDP is a wonderful Chrysler invention apparently. Here's Fords and Chryslers EVAP....
http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/321796/Misc%20Crap/GMFordEVAP.jpg http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/321796/Misc%20Crap/ChryslersEVAP.jpg

posted by  97Talonchik

After doing a little more homework, I now understand how this gizmo works

I agree with your assessment now. Things to check:

1. leak sources such as cracked or loose hoses (either/or vacume hoses, purge hoses or connection between fuel tank and carbon canister) or cracked carbon canister

2. Malfunctioning purge control solenoid valve (some of these duty cycle, others are proportional)

3. Malfunctioning fuel cap (will not hold pressure)

4. Leaks in hoses or seals around fuel tank

5. Leak detection pump (this gizmo also acts as the vent valve when the evap control system goes into a purge cycle)

Good luck - I have to take my 1990 Buick to the test center next month to see if it passes smog inspection

posted by  tbaxleyjr

Chrysler told me I have a duty cycle purge solenoid (the part is only $37). I figure once I get my service manuals, I'll change that out and see if it fixes the problem before changing out the LDP. Fuel Cap has been replaced and the lines have no kinks or leaks as a Smoke test was performed with no qualms. I'll continue updating when I get some more info, thanks for your input though!

posted by  97Talonchik

You should be ok. On any car that is 1995 or newer they hook up the OBD. On 1994 or older, they just do the tailpipe test, visual and gas cap. My stepdad's 94 Sentra that didn't even have a cat on it passed (heheh although they didn't know it since the frame was there unscathed).

posted by  97Talonchik

Could always fill it up with higher octane and let it run for awhile before you take it in (i hear it helps alittle). Good luck with it. And also good luck to you TalonChik, hope you solve your problem without spending a ton of money. :thumbs:

posted by  car_crazy89

UPDATE!!!

Someone got a smilie face on their Emissions Test :smoke: :mrgreen:

posted by  97Talonchik

Also, with this set of OBD tests, I have seemed to acquire another code on my computer (go me!!). Now I am getting a P1495 code (Open or shorted condition detected in the leak detection pump (LDP) solenoid circuit) as well as my EVAP small leak detected (P0442). Can anyone explain what this means? Is this just one of the solenoids that needs to be replaced or is that telling me my LDP needs to be replaced?


**Luckily, the emissions tester bypassed the OBD test and just performed a tailpipe test which I passed with flying colors. That's how I got my smilie. I found out that the state provides each county with a ASE certified mechanic who will perform a diagnostic and help you figure out why you aren't passing the emissions FREE OF CHARGE. Boy, I wish I had that information about 2 months ago, lol. Anyways, that's who passed me. He said I have to get it fixed before next year when I renew because he can't bypass again. :thumbs:

posted by  97Talonchik

well the open or shorted condition on the LDP might be wiring, if the pump tests fine i would be checking wires and oddly enough maybe the first code has something to do with the other one, i would be finding the open or short in the ldp first ;) good luck maybe your boyfriend who thought he would throw in some pimp speakers drilled a hole through the wires, i see it weekly, what good is a boyfriend if he can't fix your car thats what i don't get, a guy came and asked me for pliers to get the cap off his valve stem on his tire today. so i let him have it he brought em back with no luck then dissapeared, i came out at five o'clock and there he was with the tow truck and his girlfriend, right outside the shop and the CAA or AMA or AAA tow truck guy was there checking the tire pressure meanwhile he pulls out a dilbert comic book and starts reading it while dude pumps some air in his tires,Talon... your a woman....is this proper, should i have bitch slapped him in front of his woman cuz thats what i wanted to do, lazy ignorant dick, if it truly was survival of the fittest he woulda been gone long time ago. anyway sorry to rant goodluck talonchick hope you find the problem, i would wanna get it fixed sooner than later cuz if your check engine light stays on then when a real engine problem occurs you wont know cuz that damn light is always on ;) :thumbs:

posted by  BanffAutoSpa_ap

Fortunately, I am single. No boyfriend to mess up my car. Besides, I'd just push him aside and say "you're not even doing it right, geez!". The light has actually been on since my last engine was replaced. It never occured to me that there might be something wrong, I figured they just forgot to turn it off since I didn't notice any difference in drivability (that's my own bad for assuming, I should have had it tested back then). I'll probably just end up taking it to Chrysler and see what they say. If anyone is familiar with LDP's it would be them. Thanks for answering though!

posted by  97Talonchik

How does a girl like you NOT have a boyfriend?! :screwy:

posted by  FordFromHell351

not by posting pics of naked women on your signature.

posted by  tbaxleyjr

Based on both trouble codes,

If the hoses are soild (this has been verified) and the wiring is in good shape (check for loose connections, broken wires, etc.) then the canister vent valve/leak detection pump is probably bad)

posted by  tbaxleyjr

Thanks, I'm hoping it's just a broken wire somewhere, which would explain the open/shorted code. Hey bax, good luck on your testing. :mrgreen: :thumbs:

posted by  97Talonchik

I shouldn't have much trouble - I don't have vacume leaks (at least those I have been able to detect) which would cause the car to fail NOx and the car is running too well to fail CO and HC

by the way, you are doing the right thing by troubleshooting in a logical manner instead of replacing a bunch of parts.

posted by  tbaxleyjr

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