new to manual transmission

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"Is it possible that you're getting a dog box confused with straight cut gears?" I have driven 1 wrx with a Senco Dog box. No double clutching need at all. So still have nfi what your on about.

Do you drive a fully sick focus or something? :D
As you seem to know a great deal

We should start up our own forums. The snoopewite & 57ock hang shit on each other forums :)

Can't wait until we get started on the Cricket and Rugby :D

posted by  57ock

Well thanks vwhobo for replying to my diesel query. 8-stroke diesel engines must just be in some older vehicles. They used to only fire every two cycles -
First cycle - 1. air intake 2. compression 3. fuel injection and combustion 4. exhaust
Second cycle - 5. nothing 6. nothing 7. nothing 8. nothing.
That means that each piston goes, up, fire, down, up, nothing, down, up, fire and so on.

posted by  snoopewite

57ock, I didn't say that I recommended "breaking the gears" lol with a car that spins up to 7,000rpm. How is a 'flat change' any better than an orthodox gear change that's done in less than a second? I know that 'double clutching' is necessary for cars with dog boxes, but a 'flat change'?

posted by  snoopewite

uh oh... this is getting interesting...

:popcorn: anyone?

j/k

posted by  Unfedfat

I can only guess that the other reason that you're refering to is something to do with the gear ratios of each car.

Here's that next theory that you asked for mate ) arrow Changing gear is smoother up hill.

posted by  snoopewite

I just read both of the posts and snoope said "Basically, you keep the gas pedal pressed in while you change gear very quickly." So he read what he wrote, I read what he wrote, maybe you should read what he wrote. By the way, if you're going to whine, spell it right next time.

posted by  vwhobo

Hey snoopewite what did i say? If you're gonna complain atleast read what i wrote. In yours it says to reapply the gas after shifting in mine i suggest keeping the gas floored. If you're gonna wine atleast make sure you know what you're complaining about.

posted by  slavboy1

wow, i must say i am scared to try speed shifting (keeping the throttle open). i don't want to smell burning clutch when i stop at a stop light!!!!

well, i would only do that in a race, and we all know no one here races (!!!!!)...

i guess now my next step is to practice this, get the hang of downshifting (that's another story) and then eventually get confident on hills.

im certainly open to tips.

thanks.

posted by  skribflex

Just what's the problem? Are you letting off the gas completely before you press the clutch in, or are you keeping the revs too high while you're pushing the clutch in and changing gear? Sometimes people 'snatch' the gear change when they're flooring it by letting the clutch out too quickly after changing gear.
What car is it that you drive? A high revving, four-cylinder won't be as smooth as a six-cylinder, a low revving V8 etc.
Notice that a smooth gear change gets easier as you move up through the gears e.g. shifting from 1st to 2nd is harder to do smoothly at full throttle than shifting from 4th to 5th.

posted by  snoopewite

i am new to manual transmission and would like some input on something. what is the proper way to shift when you are flooring the gas? because i am new i don't quite know what to do yet when the trottle is wide open. everytime i try to shift going at full acceleration, i can't quite seem to let off the gas, press the clutch in, and shift smoothly. any tips or any advice on how i should go along doing this maneuver?

posted by  skribflex

Slavboy1, what did I just say in the post directly above yours?

posted by  snoopewite

Personally when my favorite way to shift is to keep the gas floored and very quickly put in the clutch and shift and let off the clutch again. This should all last less than a 1/10th of a second. Quickness is key the quicker the easier on the tranny. HOWEVER, it is VERY rough on the tranny so don't do it very often.

posted by  slavboy1

My response to 57ock’s last post in this topic -
57ock, I didn’t mean an orthodox gear change as in ‘racing the gears’. Why not just put the clutch in to start with as you take your foot off the gas and move straight from one gear to the next? Just because that’s how people change gears when they’re taking it steady, it doesn’t mean that it’s inadequate for doing quickly when at full throttle.

My response to vwhobo’s last post in this topic -
1. 57ock and I are discussing two different techniques. The 'flat change' that 57ock has brought up actually includes letting off the gas during the shift change.

2. I thought that all diesels were 8-stroke engines and that's why they're low revving ? Can you clear things up for me please vwhobo wink Don't they tend to redline before 4,500rpm? I said that people can get away with 'racing the gears' with a diesel because I believe that the revs rise at a slower rate than a petrol engine. They're also supposed to have a sudden flat spot at the top of the range as the power curve stops rising.

3. N/A

4. Slavboy1 is too proud to admit that he's wrong. He's not big enough of a man to apologise after reading your post that you addressed to him vwhobo.

5. I only mentioned that there is such a technique as 'racing the gears/speed shifting'. I wasn't encouraging it and it’s not like I didn’t explain skribflex's queries about a smooth gear change to begin with.

posted by  snoopewite

skribflex wrote -
"lets say i have the throttle wide open after launching the car from a stop. in first gear, when it's about to redline, should i completely take my foot off the gas and press in the clutch simultaneously? and then the next question is, after i quickly throw the shifter into second gear, should i just drop the clutch again or should i slowly let it off?"

My answer to your first question is yes.
Once you've thrown the stick into the next gear, you want to swiftly yet smoothly let the clutch off while you simultaneously press the gas pedal back in.

Seeing as 57OCK's told you about a 'flat change', I'll tell you about 'racing the gears'.
Basically, you keep the gas pedal pressed in while you change gear very quickly. Stomp on the clutch as you change straight from one gear to the next and then slide your foot off the clutch to let it spring back up again.
You can get away with that technique with a diesel, but I wouldn't recommend it with a 4-stroke engine.

posted by  snoopewite

So you hit the rev limiter while changing gears. Your making the motor hit fuel cut while its spin at 7,000rpm!!!! You realise the stress that puts on a motor? How much stress in placed on the crank? Extra stress on the clutch too? And on gearbox. "I'll tell you about 'racing the gears'." should be "I'll tell you about 'breaking the gears'."

If your car has a powerglide transmittion, then yes, thats how u change gears cause its designed to change like that. But a standard gearbox??

posted by  57ock

Flat change it. :D

Accelerator is flat to the floor. Get you clutch foot ready to stomp the clutch pedal. Hand on gear stick / shifter. As you bring your foot off accelerator quickly, pull the gear shifter into neutral position and as u do that stomp the clutch pedal down. Soon as the clutch is fully pressed, pull the gear stick into the next gear. As u bring the clutch out quickly, stomp the accelerator again.. It should all be done in less then a second..

Thats a flat change :)

Ps: its hard on your gearbox. So its a good idea not to change gears like that too often

Btw, turbo cars will always have a surge in power after gear change as the turbo spools up again. Doesn't matter if its 4 6 8 or rotary. Unless your running a pissy little turbo and stock boost.

posted by  57ock

Double clutch is necessary for cars with a dog box? Thats news to me.
Maybe I should double clutch my dog box too? :D

Thats the first I've heard of double clutching a dog box.

posted by  57ock

Snoope, just wanted to let you know I'm not ignoring this. I'll respond when I have some time to type.

posted by  vwhobo

slavboy1 wrote -
"Hey, maybe i miss understood you and for that i appologize"

o Respect thumbs

slavboy1 wrote -
"I'm working towards my degree in Mechanical engineering at RPI and i work at a speed shop in the summers"

8) I'm glad for you and good luck with your degree wink

slavboy1 wrote -
"Can we just call this a moot point?"

I'm still waiting for 57ock's reply. 57ock and I have a disagreement and people start saying that we're arguing and getting bent out of shape. The discussions that 57ock and I have are an opportunity to learn from one another.

57ock wrote -
"Double clutch is necessary for cars with a dog box? Thats news to me.
Maybe I should double clutch my dog box too?

Thats the first I've heard of double clutching a dog box."

57ock, I must have somehow managed to miss that post because you'd done two posts back to back. I thought that you had to double clutch a dog box because the dogs on the gears won't line up properly if you change straight from one gear to the next while the clutch is in. Is it possible that you're getting a dog box confused with straight cut gears?

posted by  snoopewite

Fair enough. We're friends now.

posted by  vwhobo

57ock wrote -
"Anyway.

5.0ltr with a supercharger has a lot more torque. The S/c doesn't need the exhaust gases to spin the turbine. Its power/torque is instant. No need to spool the turbo.

A turbo needs the exhaust gases flowing fast enough to make boost.
But during a gear change the turbines in a turbo slow down, due to the limited flow of exhaust gases.

Once the exhaust gases are flowing fast enough again, the turbo is able to make boost whichs is the key to turbo cars power.
Instead of a instant power, you have a minor delay as the turbo spools into its efficency range to make boost. Smaller the turbo, the faster the spool.

So when your racing, the V8 gear changes aren't as smooth. They have instant power where the little 2ltr has to build up its power."

You could have given me more time to reply. I had problems with my computer last night ( although I'll be getting a decent one next week D Now you'll never believe me when I say that I was going to say essentially what you said but without using as much text x
I don't suppose that it matters really. You've brought factors to this equation that I'd never have thought of, so I'm glad that I've grown a little bit from this disscussion )

posted by  snoopewite

But seriously. when your racing. WHO GIVES A SHIT IF YA GOT A SMOOTH GEAR CHANGE. :)

Thats the last thing that crosses my mind :)

posted by  57ock

snoopewite you type far too much.

Mates S/c 5.0ltr V8 Commodore pulls you harder back into the seat after 5,500rpm gear change then my car does. Even if my car is faster.
He has a shit load more torque then me. But there's another reason why. You can guess it :) Nothing to do with the transmittions or clutchs.

2.0ltr turbo / 5.0ltr s/c V8

Next Theory Old Chap :)

posted by  57ock

Anyway.

5.0ltr with a supercharger has a lot more torque. The S/c doesn't need the exhaust gases to spin the turbine. Its power/torque is instant. No need to spool the turbo.

A turbo needs the exhaust gases flowing fast enough to make boost.
But during a gear change the turbines in a turbo slow down, due to the limited flow of exhaust gases.

Once the exhaust gases are flowing fast enough again, the turbo is able to make boost whichs is the key to turbo cars power.
Instead of a instant power, you have a minor delay as the turbo spools into its efficency range to make boost. Smaller the turbo, the faster the spool.

So when your racing, the V8 gear changes aren't as smooth. They have instant power where the little 2ltr has to build up its power.

posted by  57ock

!!!!!!!!!sabotage!!!!!!!!!!

posted by  57ock

Thanks for the links vwhobo ) I'm happy to be responsible for you learning something new for once D

posted by  snoopewite

1. Why are you two arguing when you're both saying essentially the same thing? I think you're getting confused by different terminology. "Flat change", "racing the gears", in the states it's called speed shifting. Same, same.

2. Snoope, why not do this with a 4-stroke engine? Most diesels are 4-strokes.

3. Ock, what do you mean that's what a Powerglide is designed for? A Powerglide is a two speed automatic transmission, not a manual.

4. Slayboy is basically clueless.

5. Most importantly, why are you even trying to explain all of this to this child anyway? Read the post. He's just learning how to drive a manual trans for crying out loud. He needs to learn to drive normally and get experience before he even attempts to learn this. Why help him tear up Mommy and Daddy's new WRX?

posted by  vwhobo

Hey, maybe i miss understood you and for that i appologize however it is a good way to quickly change gears. The key is to change gears before you hit the rev limiter. I drive a 66 mustang and that's what i do and i don't appreciate being called clueless when i work at a speed shop and am an avid drag racer.

posted by  slavboy1

You wouldn't want to be. :D

posted by  57ock

Thought you might find these interesting, I did.

http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/biofuelauto/
http://www.piecesof8cycle.com/kit.html

posted by  vwhobo

57ock wrote -
"Einstein, that depends on what type of clutch and transmittion. Not the amount of cylinders you idoit"

Well it took you a while to suddenly decide to quote me on that post roll I agree with what you said about the kind of transmission being the main factor for a smooth gear change, but changing gear at a power peak of 7,000rpm won't be as smooth as changing gear at a power peak of 5,000rpm if both cars have virtually the same kind of transmission. As you floor the gas pedal at the end of a gear change, the power should go down more smoothly from a V8 than a 4-cylinder.

57ock wrote -
"So back to your magazine"

How can all my automotive knowledge come from one magazine? You're quite condesending aren't you P

57ock wrote -
"Dog Box doesn't have synchro"

Well I suppose that I did ask for a 'rough' explanation roll

57ock wrote -
"Good to see you aspire to a pick up the kids from school car
Lower and put a fully sick kit on it"

Being in the position to 'pick my children up from school' is another thing that I aspire to )
I never suggested that teen1216 put a bodykit on a Focus. I said, "You wouldn't have to do anything extreme" as in just going for grille and air dam mesh, multi-spoke 17" Ford Wheels, everything colour coded, factory spoiler, stainless steel exaust with a 3" tip etc. In my opinion, that would just be enough to make a Focus stand out in a good way when next to a run of the mill Focus.

posted by  snoopewite

Also in respons to the bouncing off the rev limiter and hitting the fuel cut off. I was not aware of what kind of vehical it was. My mustang has no rev limiter nor a fuel cut off. I don't know why you guys are getting so bent out of shape over this it's really not that big of a deal. Either i miss understood you or you miss understood me. What i said i thought was different than what you said i got the idea from what you wrote that you recommended easing off the gas between shifts. And i also don't appreciate being called a coward, i try to read the posts on here as much as possible but i've been working too much lately to keep up with this thread. I'm really not as incompetent as you all seem to think i am. I'm working towards my degree in Mechanical engineering at RPI and i work at a speed shop in the summers, give us a call some time if you're in Minnesota it's called John Haley Motorsports. Can we just call this a moot point?

posted by  slavboy1

Good to see you aspire to a pick up the kids from school car :)
Lower and put a fully sick kit on it :)

posted by  57ock

Well with the way you said to do it. I'd twist my crank by hitting the fuel cut every gear change.

I'd prefer not to break anything.

posted by  57ock

there was something wrong with this topic... didn't understand why but it's just disappeared... sorry about it... :(

posted by  Unfedfat

Dog Box doesn't have synchro

posted by  57ock

[quote="snoopewite"]What car is it that you drive? A high revving, four-cylinder won't be as smooth as a six-cylinder, a low revving V8 etc.
[quote]

Einstein, that depends on what type of clutch and transmittion. Not the amount of cylinders you idoit :)

Brass button or ceramic button systems will not change smoothly ON ANY MOTOR.

So back to your magazine :)

posted by  57ock

i am learning on our family's subaru wrx. so, 4-cyl turbocharged. you are right, there is less "jerk" in the upper gears. so now my question is, what do i do to solve the jerking in the first two gears. lets say i have the throttle wide open after launching the car from a stop. in first gear, when it's about to redline, should i completely take my foot off the gas and press in the clutch simultaneously? and then the next question is, after i quickly throw the shifter into second gear, should i just drop the clutch again or should i slowly let it off?

i appreciate everyone's help here, as i am much enthused about vehicles in general but am just getting into the auto-world.

posted by  skribflex

Are you saying that the only transmissions that need double clutching are the ones in very old, generic cars? Can you explain roughly how a dog box differs from a conventional synchromesh system?

I don't drive a car that's image is as good as a Focus lol I put, "Ford Focus" on my vehicles list in my profile because it's something that I aspire to lol

Let me know when the new forums will be ready P

I don't give a shit about cricket or rugby and I'm not even patriotic so you'd be flogging a dead horse there |

You haven't replied to vwhobo's statement about a Powerglide transmission -
"Ock, what do you mean that's what a Powerglide is designed for? A Powerglide is a two speed automatic transmission, not a manual"

posted by  snoopewite

Nothing to do with transmittion which I stated.
Gave You a hint... Damn I'm far too nice to you :)

The difference between 2.0ltr Turbo Vs 5.0 S/c V8

posted by  57ock

Ah yes, or maybe just differing terminology again.

Snoope I gotta tell you I have never heard of an 8-stroke engine. I suppose they could exist but not in anything I'm aware of.

Essentially the only difference between a gas engine and a diesel engine is the gas is spark ignition and the diesel is compression ignition. Also while a gas engine can be carbureted or fuel injected a diesel is always injected. They can both be either 2-stroke or 4-stroke.

For those of you who would like to catch me being incorrect notice I said essentially. Obviously there are other disimilarities such as compression ratio, etc. Save the PM's.

posted by  vwhobo

I’m back with a summary of the things that have been discussed in this topic mrgreen
The primary factor of a smooth gear change is the gearbox.
More cylinders give a smoother power delivery; turbos give smoother throttle response after changing gears and lower revving engines equate to a smoother gear change than higher revving engines. Generally, the slower the acceleration, the smoother the gear change. Changing gear up hill is smoother because more momentum is lost during gear change.
Lets have a look at 4 different hypothetical cars that are being driven by equally competent drivers that are participating in a 0-100mph sprint on a flat, smooth, dry tarmac surface -
1. A car that does 0-100mph in 10 seconds with a good gearbox; a 6-cylinder engine that redlines at 6,000rpm and 15psi turbo.
2. A car that does 0-100mph in 10 seconds with a good gearbox; a 4-cylinder engine that redlines at 8,000rpm and no forced induction.
Car number 1 would be smoother than car number 2 during the gear changes.
3. A car that does 0-100mph in 20 seconds with a good gearbox; a 4-cylinder engine that redlines at 8,000rpm and no forced induction.
Car number 3 would be smoother than car number 1 during the gear changes just because it’s a lot slower.
4. A car that does 0-100mph in 20 seconds with a bad gearbox; a 6-cylinder engine that redlines at 6,000rpm and a 15psi turbo.
Car number 4 wouldn’t even be as smooth as car number 2 during gear changes because of an inferior (not weaker but clunky) gearbox.
From the smoothest gear change to the worst it goes -
Car 3, car 1, car 2 and car 4.
I’m glad that it’s all rapped up now (please anyone correct me if I’m wrong).
We could always discuss launch technique next P

posted by  snoopewite

I don't want to do this but my fingers have a mind of their own.

The two primary factors in a smooth gear change are flywheel inertia and the drivers ability to match engine speed to transmission speed. To say that the number of cylinders, aspiration or anything else is a factor is ludicrous. Of course that is assuming that the gearboxes are of equal mechanical quality. You have to have one constant in any hypothetical situation of this sort.

And Snoope, unless that's short fo Snoop Doggy Dog I'm thinking you meant to wrap it up.

posted by  vwhobo

i thought i knew a little bit about cars but damn i cant keep up with u people i understans alot of it but the other half is just looks like crazy talk (no offence its me with the problem ) but .... i forget what the point of this post was.....ohh yea after being to this fourms you people have opened my eyes to just how little i know hehe in a way thats a good thing so thank you (i think)

posted by  caffeine junky02

vwhobo wrote -
“The two primary factors in a smooth gear change are flywheel inertia and the drivers ability to match engine speed to transmission speed. To say that the number of cylinders, aspiration or anything else is a factor is ludicrous. Of course that is assuming that the gearboxes are of equal mechanical quality. You have to have one constant in any hypothetical situation of this sort.”

By the inertia of the flywheel do you mean how heavy it is, which affects how quickly the revs rise and fall? By matching engine speed to transmission speed, do you mean how much the accelerator is pressed when the clutch is completely let off ?

vwhobo wrote -
“And Snoope, unless that's short fo Snoop Doggy Dog I'm thinking you meant to wrap it up.”

No it’s not short “fo” “Snoop Doggy Dog” or even “Snoop Dog” for that matter. You’re right though; I did mean to ‘wrap’ it up lol

Btw, are you going to reply to me in the topic titled “Lets play a game”?

posted by  snoopewite

Yes vwhobo, I think we'd better. Thanks for correcting me on my hypothesis wink

posted by  snoopewite

Yes dear. What I was refering to in that thread was that you very early on said something about people staying on track. Look at the individuals post that I was refering to and it'll become crystal clear.

And I don't believe I said "inertia of the flywheel". What I said was flywheel inertia meaning the entire rotating assembly. Yes it's a technicality but we're being technical. As for your question about pressing the accelerator I would have to say yes. That's the most logical way for the driver to match engine speed. Now can we wrap it up?

posted by  vwhobo

I probebly shouldn't talk cause i can hardly drive a stick but I feel bad for that kid because you guys have just confused the shit out of him and used his thread to argue on. I personally think you guys should just tell the kid a basic, easy way to drive a stick because i dont think he's getting what you guys are saying and any of your terms. thats just my :2cents:

posted by  rockstar321

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