slammed into R at 60 mph

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I had a strange happening the other night. Me and my wife were diving back from the mountains (she was driving) we have a 92 Toyota Camry auto. We use the no over drive button and the 2nd to slow down on the steep roads. We were down the mountain and she thought she was in 2nd and slammed the stick up past N to R at 60mph the breaks came on and slowed us down to a stop. I thought the car was fried but she turned it off and back on and it went into drive just fine and there is no sign of a leak. It seems just fine, my ? Is why is my car still working after this happened is there some safety switch that kicked in or something? Or am I just really lucky? Any info would be appreciated.

posted by  trek1114

you should never ever pull on the shifter lever when driving, you just push it, that's why it was poped into reverse, she pulled on the lever, otherwise it would stop at neutral (Or press the button for the shifters down in the bush, just push them)

You're extremely lucky to not have broken anything. I've never heard of a safety switch for something like that, most cars can't lock up the brakes at 60mph anyway, so it wouldn't make a difference at speeds like that. Usually the weakest link breaks when you do that, (Axel, clutches... etc). We had a truck that came in that he slammed it into reverse while off-roading, snapped the 6" driveshaft in two.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

We did this in my friend's '92 Blazer at about 50-60mph and the same thing happened. The brakes locked up and we skidded to a hault. He simply turned the car back on and everything worked fine. It wasn't for a couple of years before he lost his upper gears and reverse.

posted by  dcm1996impalaSS

The brakes don't lock up, the wheels do because... well, duh, they tend to want to go in the oppisite direction in reverse.

posted by  DodgeRida67

Indeed.

As I said, not many cars out there have the power to lock up the brakes on dry pavement, engine's spinning one way, all of a sudden you slam it into reverse, now the tranny's trying to output a opposite turn, which in turn kills the motor and locks up the wheels.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

i don't think the engine would die

posted by  carlos

hahaha, ooooh yes it would. What do you think spins the trans? The motor. The motor's running at 2000, all of a sudden you slam it into reverse, the trans is now trying to spin backwards (at a much higher RPM, probably close to 10 grand at highways speeds), your wheels-trans over power the hydraulic pump the motor is creating and the trans spins backwards, making a reverse pump which locks up the motor so it can no longer spin.

There is absolutely nothing stopping the trans from spinning in an opposite direction, if you changed all the timing of the motor, you could make a vehicle run backwards, so now it has 4 reverse gears, and 1 forward. Without any mods to the trans.

Read up on how torque convertors work, and automatic transmissions and you'll understand what I mean.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

i know how torque converters work but that has nothing to do with this because the only thing that changes is the output shaft the input shaft is always turning the same way as the engine thats how its possible for the engine to keep going the same way while the trans output shaft is going the other way sorry but you're wrong. not only that the guy said the engine kept running

posted by  carlos

any other thoughts 88grandprix

posted by  carlos

Don't be so ignorant. You're obviously going by what your suit father or mother has told you and believe it to be true. You still don't understand how auto trans work, nor the power of the torque convertor.

What are you talking about, autos DO NOT have a clutch. The clutch of an auto is MUCH more complicated than that of a standard, the clutches are inside the trans itself, it has no solid link to the motor. The only time there is a solid link to the motor is in over-drive, but I won't get into that, you have lots of reading to do. So cars without over drive, There is ABSOLUTELY no solid link between the motor and tranny, all there is is the torque convertor, which is just a hydraulic pump.

If you're so confident, do this right now, put your most expensive vehicle in drive, get up to 15mph and throw it into reverse. See what happens (Engine stalls, chances are at low speeds like that nothing will break).

Torque convertors are extremely efficient for what they are, a tranny CANNOT and WILL NOT spin the opposite direction of the engine, it will lock up the motor. Do what I told you above. Then post your results.



Any other "facts" Carlos :laughing:

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

actually they do have a clutch its housed inside the torque converter it started appearing in the early 70's(i believe) to get better fuel mileage and they usually engage at around 30mph
looks like you need to do a little more reading

posted by  carlos

Agreed with Grand...while I was trying to fix the funny trans probs in my current ride wiff a mix of LUCAS n TransX in the transmission I was doing a lot of gear shifting with an auto cuz drive was slipping. Throw an automatic into R or even 1st (or any bad combo)while its reving in the wrong place for it and hell yeah you'll kill that engine fast.

posted by  Blue_Frog

did you guys miss the part where the guy said he turned the car off then back on after this happened

posted by  carlos

Hahaha, shut up already, you're embarassing yourself, that's called over-drive, and, that's only for 4th(5th) gear, it engages around 60mph. Break out the books boy. I've worked on cars since I can remember, you've worked on them since what? yesterday?

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

i actually went to school for automotive technology and overdrive now you're talking about someyhing completely different

posted by  carlos

auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter3.htm

posted by  carlos

Haha no i'm not, that's what over drive is, the clutch is for 1 gear, and 1 gear only. Why do you think trans with overdrive are so much more money to repair? Cause it has a big pretty word in it?

I'm sure your "school" was just a grade 9 course you took instead of cooking so now you're an expert? Because seriously, you know nothing about cars.. I'm not even kidding.

Just stop embarassing yourself, please.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

go to this site kid maybe you'll learn a thing or two

posted by  carlos

I'm not even gonna read that, it's you that needs it, boy.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

what are you afraid of just read it i wan't you to see that you're wrong and if you don't read it other people will

posted by  carlos

Haha, not at all, I don't need to read it, I've dropped more trans' outta cars than you've seen under the hoods of cars. I know more than you could ever know about a car. You're just mad because you can no longer "prove" me wrong.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

you're just some kid who works on a few cars and thinks he knows it all, me on the other hand i like to keep an open mind i know there's always someone who knows more than me, and i'm willing to learn from them, but in this case you don't know enough to be running your mouth

posted by  carlos

Main > Auto > Under the Hood

How Torque Converters Work

by Karim Nice



Table of Contents
Introduction to How Torque Converters Work The Basics Inside a Torque Converter Benefits and Weak Points Lots More Information Shop or Compare Prices








Benefits and Weak Points
In addition to the very important job of allowing your car come to a complete stop without stalling the engine, the torque converter actually gives your car more torque when you accelerate out of a stop. Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission.
At higher speeds, the transmission catches up to the engine, eventually moving at almost the same speed. Ideally, though, the transmission would move at exactly the same speed as the engine, because this difference in speed wastes power. This is part of the reason why cars with automatic transmissions get worse gas mileage than cars with manual transmissions.

To counter this effect, some cars have a torque converter with a lockup clutch. When the two halves of the torque converter get up to speed, this clutch locks them together, eliminating the slippage and improving efficiency.

For more information on torque converters and related topics, check out the links on the next page.

posted by  carlos

there you go just read it.

posted by  carlos

Know more than you do, and I know there's somebody who knows more than I do, ie, my father, he's been a mechanic for 40 years, owns his own shop, also does trannys.

Okay Mr. Know it all, what keeps a car from starting while it's out of park or neutral, very simple question, but will prove if you know anything, I'll give you 30 seconds to answer this so you don't go searchin' it up on the net.



That's for Over-drive.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

PRNDL switch and you don't have to quiz me kid go ask your daddy about torque converter clutches

posted by  carlos

stop living in your fathers glory your father probably does have more experience than me but his kid hasn't learned shit from him

posted by  carlos

It's called a neutral switch, tsk tsk.

May dad taught me all about torque convertors the first tranny I ever witnessed being dropped out.

I'm going to bed, you're an embarassement to vehicles. Sleep well, boy.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

you think

Park
Reverse
Neutral
Drive
Low

posted by  carlos

Kids lets not fight...lets agree on this much:

1) Auto transmissions are not meant to be thrown from gear to gear on whim or accident THUS why they are automatic transmissions.

2) Everyone who has ever played with or done such things accidentally should be damn lucky that the engines DO (yes carlos) often shut down out of the mass mechanical illogic of such a thing happening.

3) You are both pretty damn clever in your own right, be helpful to people here and spank each other in private messages.

:2cents: :2cents: :2cents: :2cents:

posted by  Blue_Frog

I respect everyone in this forum so I expect the same

posted by  carlos

I was just reading through your precedent posts, and realized I missed a detail in one, you said the input shaft is ALWAYS spinning the same way, how?

Okay, Forward, input going clockwise, output clockwise. Reverse, input clockwise, output counter-clockwise.

Now, you're driving along, in a forward gear, and slam it into reverse, the tranny is now spinning BACKWARDS because you're going forward in reverse, so, input counter-clockwise and output clockwise.

So, the tranny input is now spinning the opposite way of the engine output. That's when stuff breaks.

P.S. The switch is called the Neutral Switch, not prndl. What would happen if the vehicle had prn(od)d321. "Yah, I'd like to order a Park, Reverse, Neutral, Over-drive, Drive, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st switch for my..." :laughing:

Only reason I asked that is that it proved to me, and other members of this board, how much you really know about automatic transmissions.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

It is possible for stuff to break but the only thing connecting the engine and the trans at this point is fluid the argument was that the engine would stall and that doesn't neccessarily occur

what i want to know is if you acknoweledge the existence of a clutch in the torque converter

posted by  carlos

UUUGHHHH!!!! I give up....I'm a shade tree mechanic who has a huge fistful of cars and experience under my wings and like to share. But by trade I'm a tech support person and I get what you two are doing.

Your battling wits based on what you have seen and done (real world...school whatever) about what could be MULTIPLE issues but YET this guys question hasnt been quite answered and the bottom line is CARS just like servers and computers are just hunks of machinery if a person using them isnt fully satisfied using them properly.

To the original poster:

NO you probably did not fugg up your car, if doing a bad thing or unwanted thing to your tranny had happened you'd have heard all sorts of shit grinding and being eaten up when it happened and you'd be still hearing it now. Just keep in mind that for future reference if your wife wants to play with a knob while offroading you have a much better and less damaging one on your own person to play with.

Play nice you smart car bastids!

posted by  Blue_Frog

The reason its called the PRNDL switch is that all these all these positions are housed in one unit it doesn't just have the nuetral position how do you think your reverse lights come on through the same switch, how do you think it knows your in park its not just a neutral switch

posted by  carlos

The engine will 100% of the time stall if you slam in into reverse, unless your'e going like 5mph.... even at 10mph it'll stall the motor, go try it.

The only time the engine and trans have a solid link is in over-drive. That's why you hear people say "My car won't go into lock-up on the highway"

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

That is all it's called......... just look it up on google or something, im not even gonna argue with you on that.



hahaaha

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

oh so know you say that there is a clutch, make up your mind

posted by  carlos

I always did...

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

by this statement i take you looked it up

posted by  carlos

No, actually not, I've had to replace a few in my time, my car included, wouldn't start.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

actually you didn't always admit to the clutch existing,or any kind of direct link between the trans and the engine

posted by  carlos

Notice how I said I wouldn't get into over-drive because look at what that did.

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

GAAAWWWD you two fight so much you almost sound queer for each other!!!!!!

:laughing:

Get a room or somefin!!!!!!

posted by  Blue_Frog

How about your room :)

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

Lookit my avatar...gotta have a user name and password.

My user list is very selective too :mrgreen:

Now you two boys play nice :laughing:

posted by  Blue_Frog

awww, you suck :cussing: can I join :wink2:

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

No actually I dont...so you'd just be disappointed. Ask Carlos though...he seems like he likes to play wiff you quite a bit.

Nuff of that though. Who thinks Dale got ripped off at Daytona???

posted by  Blue_Frog

awww, you blow :cussing: :mrgreen:

I missed the race cause I had to work on my car :( had to have it done for today to get to work, was working on it from noon 'till 2AM last night :(

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

You didnt miss much til the end but Dale did his thing goin up from 13th to 1st in the last 25 laps like he always seems to. Lays back there and charges at the end...I kinda like that.

But hell right as he got it Gordon shot up too...not even a quater of a lap in. And the whole time someone was losing it in the backfield for almost a lap (cant remember who lost it). If they had just called yellow sooner Dale would have had the race.

Not knocking Gordon for winning...hes a good driver and all but hes the kind that if he wins a race he deserves he leads it for a good 50 miles or so. It was Dales race and he lost it on a bad yellow call. I was pissed and I bet he was too.

Know what you mean about bein tied up with the car though. I'm giving mine one more solid 4 days of troubleshooting then I'm gonna give it up assuming computer or relay chit I cant diagnose.

posted by  Blue_Frog

Haha good, I like gordon more than Dale :mrgreen: but all 'n' all, Stewart all the way, i love how he's a kunt.

Brings back good memories of last year :mrgreen: My dad and I won a trip to the Indianpolis 400 from Delphi, it was awesome, box seats, all you can eat, and if you got hot, you could go inside the air-conditioned booth to cool down. (I'm canadian, and i wasn't quite used to the 40+ weather down there). was great though, we got to go see the practice, qualifying and the race, all in box seats, everything paid for, didn't spend a dime down there.. that was a once in a life-time event. Nothing like 43 cars goin' by at 200+mph.

Yah, cars are a pain, but when you're done the big jobs ( had to do the power steering rack on the floor.. Jacked with a leaking jack and no jack-stands ( had the tire resting on an old wheel haha)) it leaves you feelin' like the king of the world for the rest of the day :mrgreen:

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

I come from a racing family though by the time around and about I got to where I was close to them they were more into cycles and enduros than they were what they raced when they were younger while my grandfather was still in the game.

One of my uncles still follows the NASCAR season as best he can between his own cycle races and I went around with him a few years ago. Still love the local tracks. Nothing like it like you said...they always follow it in style...nice RV and good site / seating.

I'll feel on top of the world when I get this :cussing: tempo that I KNOW has a solid engine that I got for $500 doing more than grandma trips......yeah been under the car like that. Places that YOU SHOULD at least have it jacked on a tire or something but had it jacked on nothing at all (dropping the tranny oilpan). But yet...still something that AINT mechanical is making it screw up.................

posted by  Blue_Frog

Man I wanna take a nascar for a rip around a big track, that'd be fun.

good luck with ya car though, I gotta be up for school in 4 hours.. Im goin' to bed. 'Night

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

[QUOTE=88GrandPrixSE]That is all it's called......... just look it up on google or something, im not even gonna argue with you on that.

I was a little bored so I actually googled(PRNDL)it and guess what..........

posted by  carlos

hahahahahahaha, you discovered that they two are two completely different things? Man, you shoulda stopped why you were ahead. Now you've gone and made a fool of yourself.

You're a fun one to prove wrong over and over and over and over again because you're so stubburn :mrgreen: :banghead:

posted by  88GrandPrixSE

Listen carefully...breaking news here (if you have been hiding under a rock and apparently you have been_) it's called a Neutral Saftey Switch. Say it with me. Good. :clap:

posted by  DodgeRida67

OK. You are speaking of two different things obviously because you don't even know the difference.

In general terms, this switch in the transmission you are speaking of (Let's call it a... gear selector switch... GSS) is not the switch that prevents your starter from getting power when you try to start the engine. It plays a part in this, but it's not what does it. This GSS gives a ground to the Starter Relay which enables it to be energized. It gives ground to the Starter Relay's coil in Neutral and Park.

Obviously, for the starter relay to close, the coil needs a ground and a positive charge. The positive comes from the turn of the ignition switch to the start position. The ground comes from the Gear Selector Switch which only gives ground in Neutral and Park.


That, that is the story in your average vehicle. :thumbs:

posted by  DodgeRida67

this coming from a guy who said there was no release fork in a hydradic clutch system
its clear that it's not wired directly to the starter it would require a lower gauge wire to be able to handle the amperage
as far as hiding under a rock my instructers called it a prendel switch as well as a neutral safety switch
your explanation on how it works is to general on MOST vehicles the solenoid itself provides the ground the switch is wired in series ,so when in any other position other than P and N no voltage reaches the solenoid not the other way around

posted by  carlos

You boys still fighting?????

I'm outta the argument because I'll admit you guys are talking over my head BUT you both (or all) ought to admit to what I said earlier about computers n cars being machines that have MULTIPLE ways of troubleshooting and looking at problems. I hate it when I see other techies going at pissing contests over problems n tech issues when in the end they all could be somewhat right. You guys oughta share knowledge instead of crossing swords.

Like I said...play nice ya smart car bastids.

posted by  Blue_Frog

You're very lucky that nothing broke. I'm surprised that you're engine didnt fall out

posted by  chud298

I missed this one :evil:

Why does the word sprag spring to mind? :wink2:

Cars go so well with compression braking at speed don't they :evil:

posted by  Wally

That's because there isn't. :thumbs:




No one ever mentioned anything about this so... WHAT?





Your "instructers" must be a crystal ball. Listen, it's broken.





Yikes. Listen. The Gear Selector Switch gives ground to the Neutral Safety Switch.



Drop it. It's getting pathetic. Who gives a damn, I've told it like it is so plug it up. Another word of advice, learn how to spell.

posted by  DodgeRida67

you're just are retarded as the guy i was arguing with before
if you don't know what you're talking about read a book first then talk shit or at least look at a wiring diagram, and i never claimed to know how to spell

posted by  carlos

Don't tell me to read a book. I build cars and you argue over what you havnt a clue about.

Listen to what I'm saying because it's the basics. Good place to get started. You can choose to turn your nose up simply because you are to insecure to be proved wrong and remain in ignorance. Your choice. :thumbs:

posted by  DodgeRida67

i never doubted what you do. my question is, how have you proved me wrong, have you showed me any facts to prove your points?

posted by  carlos

When the clutch pedal is pressed, a cable or hydraulic piston pushes on the release fork, which presses the throw-out bearing against the middle of the diaphragm spring. As the middle of the diaphragm spring is pushed in, a series of pins near the outside of the spring causes the spring to pull the pressure plate away from the clutch disc (see below). This releases the clutch from the spinning engine.


Photo courtesy Carolina Mustang
Clutch plate



Note the springs in the clutch plate. These springs help to isolate the transmission from the shock of the clutch engaging.


here you go guy I copied this from auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch3.htm read it then tell me if hydraulic clutch systems have a release fork or not

posted by  carlos

Sure you did. You said I was retarded and I needed to read a book.



http://www.ifrance.com/c-i-f/tqf-sw.htm

posted by  DodgeRida67

if you would have read the post carefully it said MOST cars not all cars, not only that this wiring diagram is for a car thats older than me, chances are, just maybe, that nothing is wired like this anymore

posted by  carlos

Yikes a misunderstanding. What are you thinking of is not a hydraulic actuator system. It's machanical and hydraulic.

What I speak of is a full-blown hydro clutch actuator.
http://www.keislerauto.com/mopar/transmissions/images/clutch-kit-hydraulic0 1.jpg

posted by  DodgeRida67

Now you are just trying to be a pain in the ass. You asked for proof, I gave you proof. Let it go, OK?

posted by  DodgeRida67

i'm admiting that you were right, but I wasn't wrong, i never said that all vehicles were wired the way i said. Did I?

posted by  carlos

That's right. There are alot of variations. Most of the time that is how it works though. Gear Selector Switch giving ground to the Starter Relay. :thumbs:

posted by  DodgeRida67

I reckon I can help all of you save face, while implicitly displaying my large penis:

if I take just one mass produced jap car I can tell you that each selected shift position is fed as a negative signal into the ECU. The signals from the park and neutral switches are also fed into a diode matrix for low signal select, the output signal making the coil of an inhibitor relay.

If you throw the car into reverse while travelling at speed you can expect clutch plates to be damaged, a possible sheared drive shaft and an engine that is getting a good hiding. Sprag clutches are designed for one way operation. But you biggest problem is going to be negotiating the trees and obstacles on the side of the road.

posted by  Wally

Well Wally at least you arent throwing insults, and still yeah talking over my head.

While I'll agree all that could POSSIBLY happen it doesnt always. I've thrown auto transmissions into bad gear and reverse before and usually the result was just as the poster stated....killed the engine fast but no obvious damage. If he screwed up once and didnt instantly see bad results otherwise (like a tore the hell up transmission) then he just got lucky and shouldnt worry about it.

Wut these other guys are fighting over is just plain :screwy: to me. Just a pissing contest of some sort I guess.

But as I have heard said many times:

http://www.agballoonzone.com/images/powerpuff1.gif

BOYZ ARE STOOPID!!!!

posted by  Blue_Frog

I never insult. Stick with me kid and you will learn things you never thought humanly possible. I'm the real McCoy :laughing:

posted by  Wally

i have no idea what you said, matrix,coil of an inhibitor relay ,huh?
to my knowledege(maybe yours is more extensive than mine)computers don't read in negative or positive they read in digital(1 and 0, on and off)

posted by  carlos

I wasn't writing it in logic level, but I can waffle if you like: discreet binary low passing inputs from each shift switch to the ECU over ride the pullups creating a logic zero that is either/or inverted, filtered, conditioned and passed directly to a multiplexer, PIA port or dedicated I/O on the micro controller where it is digitally processed according to the program, algorithms and closed loop routines in combination with other analogue and binary signals. The discreet binary outputs presumably with flyback circuitry control the shift solenoids.

The park and neutral binary low states are also sent through an OR gate via parallel circuitry, so that either one of the signals operates an inhibitor relay.

Did I tell you I can design industrial controllers too. Goddam I can walk and chew gum at the same time. Quick someone pat me on the back coz my head is stopping me from doing it myself.

DSMer did you spot the deliberate mistakes? :mrgreen:

posted by  Wally

Now everyone has graced us with their knowledge of neutral safety switches, ECM's, TCM,s, Wally's anatomy, etc. I think we need to close the thread before this gets much deeper in bull crap than it already has become.

posted by  tbaxleyjr

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