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Old 02-25-2005, 12:14 AM   #1
Blue_Frog
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Question Cooling System Questions:

Okay I have been through every component in solving my cooling system problems up to the water pump. It's a cheap fix but a pain in the ass to do(94 Ford Tempo 4cyl 2.3). I wanted some opinions on symptoms before I did:

1) Every other time I have diagnosed or replaced a water pump its been obvious that the pump was out and completely NOT working. The bearings were either shot and it squealed like hell or you could put your hands on the radiator intake / outake hoses and tell there was no flow.

A) I've got flow by touch from the intake hose. It starts slow and increases in pressure as the engine warms (no thermy...yanked it).

B) I flushed the system manually last weekend (no hose to t flush with) and the ratio of coolant / water got obviously weaker when I filled the radiator with it so clean water had to be coming from the block.

C) There is circulation that I can see from the radiator when the cap is removed but its not like what I would see in straight blocks that I am used to. It is more a glub-glub than a steady flow. Someone told me this is normal though in newer engines and front wheel drives as the radiator cap needs to be on for full pressure on the cooling system (?? ??).


2) The engine does not technically 'overheat' but it struggles once it gets hot. But it has an electric fan which I've never PERSONALLY had (on anything but a brand new vehicle that NEVER HAD probs) that seems to do a kick ass job and a 50/50 mix of 5w40 Lucas in the block that of course I have always found to be like engine magic.

3) I just took it for a good trip (bout 45 miles) today and it did die at idle like it over heated and when I did recrank it for the next round it sputtered like it was misfiring from a fouled plug (and I know that my oil mix has burned up lost viscosity way faster than it should have). It started pouring rain so I couldnt check the plugs but I could tell one was misfiring like it was fouled cuz it would stop doing it if I reved the piss outta it.

Okay I guess bottom line is: Can a water pump start to 'die' without being shot and cause problems like this? Like I said to me a bad water pump is the next logical step but its a pain in the ass to get to and every other time I've dealt with a bad water pump it has been way more obvious than this. If I pull the damn thing and it doesnt turn out to be the prob I'm gonna be on fire like way pissed.

Opinions anyone?

(Wiffout pissing contests please play nice ya smart car bastids ~ I said opinions)

THX!
_______________
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Last edited by Blue_Frog : 02-25-2005 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:04 AM   #2
Wally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Frog
Okay I have been through every component in solving my cooling system problems up to the water pump. It's a cheap fix but a pain in the ass to do(94 Ford Tempo 4cyl 2.3). I wanted some opinions on symptoms before I did:

1) Every other time I have diagnosed or replaced a water pump its been obvious that the pump was out and completely NOT working. The bearings were either shot and it squealed like hell or you could put your hands on the radiator intake / outake hoses and tell there was no flow.

A) I've got flow by touch from the intake hose. It starts slow and increases in pressure as the engine warms (no thermy...yanked it).

B) I flushed the system manually last weekend (no hose to t flush with) and the ratio of coolant / water got obviously weaker when I filled the radiator with it so clean water had to be coming from the block.

C) There is circulation that I can see from the radiator when the cap is removed but its not like what I would see in straight blocks that I am used to. It is more a glub-glub than a steady flow. Someone told me this is normal though in newer engines and front wheel drives as the radiator cap needs to be on for full pressure on the cooling system (?? ??).


2) The engine does not technically 'overheat' but it struggles once it gets hot. But it has an electric fan which I've never PERSONALLY had (on anything but a brand new vehicle that NEVER HAD probs) that seems to do a kick ass job and a 50/50 mix of 5w40 Lucas in the block that of course I have always found to be like engine magic.

3) I just took it for a good trip (bout 45 miles) today and it did die at idle like it over heated and when I did recrank it for the next round it sputtered like it was misfiring from a fouled plug (and I know that my oil mix has burned up lost viscosity way faster than it should have). It started pouring rain so I couldnt check the plugs but I could tell one was misfiring like it was fouled cuz it would stop doing it if I reved the piss outta it.

Okay I guess bottom line is: Can a water pump start to 'die' without being shot and cause problems like this? Like I said to me a bad water pump is the next logical step but its a pain in the ass to get to and every other time I've dealt with a bad water pump it has been way more obvious than this. If I pull the damn thing and it doesnt turn out to be the prob I'm gonna be on fire like way pissed.

Opinions anyone?


(Wiffout pissing contests please play nice ya smart car bastids ~ I said opinions)

THX!
_______________

So you are saying the engine is overheating? I guess the normal drill of questions have to be asked:

Have you flushed the radiator?
Do you have any soft hoses that could be collapsing under suction pressure?
Does running the cabin heater reduce temps?
Is there a chance you have a cracked head and/or gasket?
Are you loosing water?
Is the thermostat opening fully (drop it in some near boiling water)?
Is your timing too advanced or fuel mixture a bit on the lean side?
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:44 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
So you are saying the engine is overheating? I guess the normal drill of questions have to be asked:

Have you flushed the radiator?

Yes..Wally you are dissapointing me I did that last weekend 'read' please.

Do you have any soft hoses that could be collapsing under suction pressure?
Does running the cabin heater reduce temps?

No I'm using feeling the intake on the radiator to 'assume' there is flow coming into the radiator. It starts loose then gets tight as the engine gets hot which makes me think that the pump 'is' working but I may be totally wrong or misinformed about how it should work (read my post).

Is there a chance you have a cracked head and/or gasket?
Are you loosing water?

No if the head gasket were cracked I know what I'd be seeing...first operating wise lotsa white steamy smoke coming from the exhaust...next white filmy bubbly stuff in my crankcase via the dipstick. I'm a really good shadetree type mechanic Wally. I know the mechanics of an engine. I guess I'm trying to eliminate the last 'mechanical' prob I can think of before I give it up to diagnostics cuz the water pump is the last mechanical prob it could be.

Is the thermostat opening fully (drop it in some near boiling water)?
Is your timing too advanced or fuel mixture a bit on the lean side?

Thermy got yanked first thing when I bought it...before I ever knew of any problems. I dont live in a freezin place so I think thermy's are just a stupid part to rust up and break down in the cooling system.

Not knocking you Wally and I trust your opinion...please re-evaluate what I've said n tell me what you think. I think I'm dealing with something that seems to be beyond the mechanical and into diagnostic but yet its so tempting to try that last thing. I dont want to waste my weekend and $30 replacing that pump and find out its some sort of sensor or relay I cant mechanically diagnose if it aint so.

Bottom line question I guess I could say is:

(Ignore my details)

Can a water pump 'start' to go bad and just under perform or something? That I guess is what I'm asking. All I have ever seen is water pumps bottom out.
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Last edited by Blue_Frog : 02-25-2005 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 02-25-2005, 02:13 AM   #4
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ive seen alot of chrysler waterpump problems where the impeler shears off the shaft, but will still spin sometimes and slip others causing alot of problems, if you do go into yours and pull it out, it might look ok but try to hold the pully and turn the impeller(sp?)
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Old 02-25-2005, 02:30 AM   #5
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Thanks Banff thats exactly what I was wonderin...can a water pump 'sorta' work. I've never seen nuffin but them totally be blown.
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Old 02-25-2005, 03:02 AM   #6
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Does your coolant temp gauge say that the coolant is over-heating? Though, even with a partially working pump it shouldn't over-heat without the thermo.

You should pop a thermostat in it, thermostats are there for a reason, they keep the engine warm, and increase fuel economy, also makes it easier to test things like this. Hose will be cold until the thermo breaks open, then when it does, you know your pump is good.

Is your waterpump making any-sort of grinding or other odd noise?

Did you bleed your cooling system after you flushed it?
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Old 02-27-2005, 08:26 AM   #7
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"[color=MediumTurquoise] A) I've got flow by touch from the intake hose. It starts slow and increases in pressure as the engine warms (no thermy...yanked it)."

This statement is the crux of your problem. The cooling system needs the themostat in place to slow the flow of coolant enough to transfer heat from the engine block to the coolant which then goes to the radiator and transfers the heat to the air (through the radiator tubes and fins). Without the themostat the coolant just whips by the hot engine and does not have time to remove the heat. The engine will remain cool to the touch when idling because there is no excessive heat generated like while driving. I am hoping that you have not done any damage to your engine by overheating the cylinder walls.
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Old 02-27-2005, 09:23 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srober32
"[color=MediumTurquoise] A) I've got flow by touch from the intake hose. It starts slow and increases in pressure as the engine warms (no thermy...yanked it)."

This statement is the crux of your problem. The cooling system needs the themostat in place to slow the flow of coolant enough to transfer heat from the engine block to the coolant which then goes to the radiator and transfers the heat to the air (through the radiator tubes and fins). Without the themostat the coolant just whips by the hot engine and does not have time to remove the heat. The engine will remain cool to the touch when idling because there is no excessive heat generated like while driving. I am hoping that you have not done any damage to your engine by overheating the cylinder walls.

No.... It keeps the motor cooler without the thermo. Thermo's there to keep the motor warm to increase economy (more power when cold) and to give the driver some heat. It doesn't matter whether water is moving or not to absorb heat, it's always in contact with the cyl. walls so it's always absorbing heat, and it's always cooler also since it's constantly making the big trip around the motor to the rad, so it cools it more.

Think of it this way, you have a hot steamy piece of metal and dunk it in a bucket of water, it cools instantly. Another hot steamy piece of metal and dunk it in water and spin it really quickly, it'll still cool instantly, if anything, it'd cool faster due to the fact that it's comin in contact with cooler water.
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Old 02-27-2005, 10:22 AM   #9
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Yes, and no, the themostat reduces the flow rate through the engine to alow the coolant effective heat transfer by remaining in contact with the hot cylinders inside the engine for a slightly greater period of time it also allows the coolant to stay in the radiator longer to radiate more heat from the coolant. I had a problem just like this with my '74 Nova when I removed the thermostat. It would run colder while idling and would over heat while running at about 65 MPH, until I replaced it with a new thermostat and amazingly enough the temp stayed the same at idle and at freeway speeds.

Last edited by srober32 : 02-27-2005 at 10:40 AM. Reason: hold it reverse it
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Old 02-27-2005, 07:28 PM   #10
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The flowing coolant radiates more heat than stationary coolant, im sure you know anything moving cools faster than something just sitting there. For instence, I popped mine out of my GP because of over-heating problems, it never got over 50 degrees, and it was getting cold outside so.. that's when i decided to replace it, now it goes up to 110.

The radiator is more effective when it's in contact with warmer coolant, I'm sure you know this too. What I mean is... once the coolant in the rad is cool (with a thermostat) the rad is no longer really doing anything, because the coolant has already gotten pretty cold. Without the thermo it's constantly in contact wit the warmer coolant out of the motor so it cools it effectively. Here's an example of what I mean because I can't think of an easy way to explain that haha. Okay, you bring a cup water to it's boiling point (100) and one to half that (50). The water at 100 is going to cool a lot faster than the one at 50 at room temperature. After 1 minute, the one that was at 100 may be at 50 now, while the one that was at 50 is now at 35. You know what I mean?
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Old 02-27-2005, 10:03 PM   #11
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Whatever anyone's rash reasoning behind all of this Jibba Jabber, the ford motor company didn't spend millions and millions of dollars on research and developement just for someone to tell them they don't need a thermostat inside the motor they designed, Bluefrog just put the damn thermostat back in, really..... it's thier for a reason. and whoever try's to say it's not really isn't helping you out.
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