Car Forums  

Go Back   Car Forums > Vehicle Specific > Domestic Cars
FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-14-2005, 10:20 PM   #106
DSMer
CF Extraordinaire
 
DSMer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,639
Yes, the CTS-V is a great car. Even the base model V6 is a good run for a 25K. The styling on the CTS is very clever, and although the sound system lacks the feel of a quality Mercedes or Acura it has its ups. The CTS-V has bad wheel hop upon hard launches and stand still lateral acceleration. Until that is improved by GM the CTS-V will never be faster from a stop than a BMW M3. However, in a world of performance sedans who cares about drag racing? You'll rarely see an M3 at the strip let alone a CTS-V. The CTS-V has forever been impressive on a road course, posting faster "Ring" times than both the M3, C55AMG, and Audi S4. It even beats the bigger brothers M5, E55AMG, and RS6. But they outclass the CTS-V by almost 100+HP and $20,000 a piece so who cares? The CTS-V should never meet on the road course with the aforementioned cars out classing it.

Everyone knows thats when entering the ring of performance sedans you have to tango with the white propellers in the sky. A job that Audi and Mercedes have been after for years, but couldn't quite get the position. After dropping lap times at nurburguring, BMW knew they had a serious contender on their hands, both on and off the track. SCCA races prove that Cadillac has done something right when the CTS-V team placed number one over the M3 racers on several occasions. On the road ,where most of these Internet racers seem to forget, is where these cars will probably spend more than 99% of their lives from the average consumer. Almost all who partake in the purchasing of a BMW M3 and or CTS-V will undoubtedly want to experience those "ultimate driving machine" qualities. After all, who wants to pay $50,000 for a race car that can't be comfortably driven on the streets?

Aside from the fancy wheels, concept car-like styling, and hype of owning a car that can accelerate from stoplight to stoplight the fastest; we get down to the real meat and potatoes of what makes these two "real driving machines". For those with more than one driver of the car, per household, the CTS-V offers memory seats as a standard option. The M3 has it as an added option. In contrast the M3 has a telescoping steering wheel, and when changing from driver to driver this REALLY makes a difference. All luxury sedans should have this option.. I can deal with adjusting an electronic seat, however steering wheel position is something that makes driving a lot more comfortable, and when the option to adjust the steering wheel is not present it can really work my nerves.

The CTS-V comes with GM's renowned On-Star and a standard navigation system. BMW has an optional navigation. Thats a big negative for M3. Navigation systems can get pricey and with one already tagged into the CTS-V's price, that only sweetens the already sugary deal. This brings us to some other issues. Some may argue that these options are not necessary in a sports car, but for $49,000 these had all better included as standard. On the CTS-V it offers rear cup holders(not available on the M3), power/heated driver and passenger seats, and leather upholstery(but from my understanding the M3 has a suede interior which can go either way so we won't look negatively on this unless you fancy the leather). Thats a lot of stuff that isn't offered standard on the BMW which can only raise the price of a fully loaded Bimmer.

The sound system in the BMW rules over the CTS-V, which is always a plus. But what has Cadillac put up their sleeves? A DVD entertainment system standard. The CTS-V may not have as good a sound system of the BMW but I believe it makes up for that with the DVD entertainment system. However BMW offers a greater warranty and more advanced technologies such as Brake assist, passenger sensing airbags and rain sensing windshield wipers. The CTS-V isn't without its own technologies such as auto suspension leveling. But, BMW always has it nice little gadgets such as the integrated key remote that can control the windows via remote. Not to mention the door locks are heated so you'll never have to worry about being frozen out of your car. Not that you should leave such a nice car outside in the elements, but for those of you whom don't own garages. Even the windshield wiper jets are heated.

The BMW has its own systems monitor with so many computers you can practically be alerted when a bug is in danger of hitting your windshield(You can't really, but it would be nice if you could). The CTS-V has the ingenious design of run-flat tires that allow you to drive for a specific amount of time on a flat tire without fear of damaging the wheel. And with the built in tracker on the CTS-V you'll never have to worry about your vehicle being stolen. Passenger space is a dead giveaway to the CTS-V. The M3 has cramped rear seats, which probably won't be a problem for most people buying these cars, but for that occasional guy with a three person family looking for a performance sedan the CTS-V would be the better choice.

These two have more features for the demanding driver, and the CTS-V seems to go blow for blow with the M3's advanced features. Their road driving and comfort are almost par. They both have their negatives and positives in different areas. It seems that the CTS-V is the bizarre world M3. Everything seems as if it is exact opposite. Where the M3 lacks the CTS-V prevails. So what am I saying? The CTS-V, like any car, is not perfect. Can it compare to the likes of the Bimmer? Yes. Is it better? In certain areas, Yes. Can it be crowned the new "Ultimate driving machine"? I'm leaning more towards No. The CTS-V offers a wide variety of options to compete with the M3 but its not up to BMW level just yet. Give the CTS-V a few more years of engineering and maybe it will be better than the BMW in over 60% of its assets.

I mean cmon`, the BMW M3 is almost 20 years in the making. You surely didn't expect a rookie to take the throne!
__________________

...Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid...
DSMer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 06:07 AM   #107
Gothicaleigh
CF Newbie
 
Gothicaleigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: My world is evil, but American made...
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwright23
But cars that you should take a look at if you like caddys are the STS-V and the XLR-V both are coming out soon and both will have horsepower well over 500. I believe the XLR-V is going to be pushing 650hp. But all of the V series cars are true import killiers. Great cars.



XLR-V
440hp

STS-V (I'm on the waiting list at my dealer for one of these btw)
440hp

They both use the exact same handbuilt 440hp Supercharged Northstar. It's been confirmed that the 06 CTS-V will have the 400hp LS2 engine (replacing the current 400hp LS6)from the new Corvette and rumor has it that the LS7 isn't far behind...



The CTS is in between BMW's 3 and 5 series. You get a car with the size of the 5 series with the price and performance of the 3 series. That is how Cadillac is crushing the competition. Even BMW itself can't get it's 5 series to handle like the 3. The CTS does the job of the 3 and the 5. That is impressive engineering.
__________________
-God is what Mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scope of our comprehension-
Gothicaleigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 07:08 AM   #108
DSMer
CF Extraordinaire
 
DSMer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,639
Spacewise, the CTS is no larger than a 4-door 3-Series BMW. The fact that BMW chose to make the M3 a coupe only car has nothing to do with Cadillacs stretch towards the performance area of an M5. An M3 can outdrive an STS-V anyday of the week. Does that mean BMW intended for the M3 to be competetive with the STS-V? By no means. The CTS-V was aimed to be the M3 of the Cadillac team. Magazines just compare the CTS-V to the 2000 M5 for "ooh's" and "aaah's".

Wow, a CTS-V can beat an M5 arround the track. So can my friends Honda Civic Si. Challenging a 300lb man to an agility race when you're 115lb's is'nt very fair now is it?
__________________

...Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid...
DSMer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 02:56 PM   #109
-What-
Banned
 
-What-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Everywhere! Previous Join Date: Jul 2004 Status: Banned
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
The CTS-V was aimed to be the M3 of the Cadillac team. Magazines just compare the CTS-V to the 2000 M5 for "ooh's" and "aaah's".
Do you remember when I argued with your dumbass about this in this SAME thread? But wait, your argument was different then. Remember, you were like.."the CTS-V is comparable to the M5"...and I was like..."no, the M3 is in the CTS-V's class"..and you were like..."well, blah blah blah...but the new STS-V is going to supposedly have 500-600+HP.." and I was like.."shut up bitch you don't know what you're talking about..."

You still haven't shut up, but I'm glad you realised you were wrong. By the way, the new STS-V makes 440 hp...about 67 less than the new M5. Boy oh boy, the BMW sure is something, right? That M5 is amazing..."talk about setting new standards..."

Side-switching bitch.
-What- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 07:52 PM   #110
Gothicaleigh
CF Newbie
 
Gothicaleigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: My world is evil, but American made...
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
Spacewise, the CTS is no larger than a 4-door 3-Series BMW. The fact that BMW chose to make the M3 a coupe only car has nothing to do with Cadillacs stretch towards the performance area of an M5.

Really? I've owned a 3 series and my current CTS is much larger. You obviously haven't seen the two cars next to each other.

As for the 5 series, the CTS' dimensions match up very close:
Cadillac CTS
Leg Room (front)...................42.4
Leg Room (rear)....................36.2
Head Room (front).................38.9
Head Room (rear)..................36.9
Shoulder Room (front)............56.6
Shoulder Room (rear)..............56.2

BMW 5-series
Leg Room(front)....................41.5
Leg Room (rear).....................36.0
Head Room(front)..................37.7
Head Room(rear)...................37.9
Shoulder Room(front).............57.3
Shoulder Room(rear)...............57.2


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
An M3 can outdrive an STS-V any day of the week. Does that mean BMW intended for the M3 to be competetive with the STS-V? By no means.

The CTS was purposely positioned to compete with the 3 and the 5. This was Cadillac's intention. The STS is positioned to compete with the 5 and the 7. The true DTS replacement coming in 2008 (not the facelift they unveiled this year) will compete with the 7 and an ultra-luxury version will have even maybach in it's sights.

The marketing game that Cadillac is using is completely new and doesn't line up with the current standard classes. They have been doing extraordinarily well aligning their cars in this way too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
The CTS-V was aimed to be the M3 of the Cadillac team. Magazines just compare the CTS-V to the 2000 M5 for "ooh's" and "aaah's".

The CTS-V was aimed as an M5 competitor with the performance of the M3. When the CTS was designed, Cadillac was in poor shape and didn't know if they would get another chance to compete should it fail. Thus it was designed to appeal to both classes in terms of size, performance, and pricing.

GM itself has purposely set it's cars in between the two 'common' classes. Both the CTS and the STS compete with the 5 series for example... you just get to pick if you want your 'american 5' to be a little larger or smaller. This way they cover a larger demographic with each car. The STS also compares to the 7, and does a fine job in terms of performance and price.

When the DTS comes out, I gaurantee it will be sized a bit larger than the 7, but be in line with the 7's price and performance. At least that is how Cadillac has placed each of it's redesigns thus far.

For example:
CTS -> 325i, 330i, 525i, 530i (and in V form: 545i, M3, M5)
STS -> 530i, 545i, 7 series (and in V form: M5)
DTS -> 7 series and larger

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
Wow, a CTS-V can beat an M5 arround the track. So can my friends Honda Civic Si. Challenging a 300lb man to an agility race when you're 115lb's is'nt very fair now is it?

The CTS-V is closer in weight to the M5 than the M3, so your example makes no sense. Besides, the much heavier CTS-V posts better track times than the M3, so yes, sometimes that 'heavier man' will surprise you with his agility.
__________________
-God is what Mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scope of our comprehension-
Gothicaleigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 08:19 PM   #111
Gothicaleigh
CF Newbie
 
Gothicaleigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: My world is evil, but American made...
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by -What-
You still haven't shut up, but I'm glad you realised you were wrong. By the way, the new STS-V makes 440 hp...about 67 less than the new M5. Boy oh boy, the BMW sure is something, right? That M5 is amazing..."talk about setting new standards..."


The STS-V doesn't need 600-whatever horse to compete with the new M5, as it does well enough with 440hp (and look at the price difference!)...

2006 BMW M5
500hp 384 lb ft of torque
0-60 in 4.7 seconds (manufacturer est.)
Top Speed: 155 mph
$90,000


2006 Cadillac STS-V
440hp 430 lb ft of torque
0-60 in 4.7 seconds (manufacturer est.)
Top speed: 169 mph
$75,000






__________________
-God is what Mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scope of our comprehension-
Gothicaleigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 09:06 PM   #112
DSMer
CF Extraordinaire
 
DSMer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by -What-
Do you remember when I argued with your dumbass about this in this SAME thread? But wait, your argument was different then. Remember, you were like.."the CTS-V is comparable to the M5"...and I was like..."no, the M3 is in the CTS-V's class"..and you were like..."well, blah blah blah...but the new STS-V is going to supposedly have 500-600+HP.." and I was like.."shut up bitch you don't know what you're talking about..."

You still haven't shut up, but I'm glad you realised you were wrong. By the way, the new STS-V makes 440 hp...about 67 less than the new M5. Boy oh boy, the BMW sure is something, right? That M5 is amazing..."talk about setting new standards..."

Side-switching bitch.

Comparable: Able to be compared.

A rock is comparable to a CTS-V. Hmmm... side switching? I think not...
__________________

...Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid...
DSMer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 02:12 AM   #113
-What-
Banned
 
-What-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Everywhere! Previous Join Date: Jul 2004 Status: Banned
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gothicaleigh
The STS-V doesn't need 600-whatever horse to compete with the new M5, as it does well enough with 440hp (and look at the price difference!)...

2006 BMW M5
500hp 384 lb ft of torque
0-60 in 4.7 seconds (manufacturer est.)
Top Speed: 155 mph
$90,000


2006 Cadillac STS-V
440hp 430 lb ft of torque
0-60 in 4.7 seconds (manufacturer est.)
Top speed: 169 mph
$75,000
You think the STS-V competes "well enough" with the new M5 because of some ESTIMATED 0-60 times? Get the f*ck outta here. First of all, the M5 is about WAY more than acceleration, and secondly, the M5 will be quicker than those estimates. Which car do you believe would posts better lap times at a track.
-What- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 05:14 AM   #114
Gothicaleigh
CF Newbie
 
Gothicaleigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: My world is evil, but American made...
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by -What-
You think the STS-V competes "well enough" with the new M5 because of some ESTIMATED 0-60 times? Get the f*ck outta here. First of all, the M5 is about WAY more than acceleration, and secondly, the M5 will be quicker than those estimates. Which car do you believe would posts better lap times at a track.

We'll see this fall when both are released. The STS rides on the formidable Sigma platform that underpins the CTS-V, which has already more than proven to be the equal of either M class bimmer. Now take that amazing platform and add the faster reacting MagneRide system to it (as found in the Corvette and base STS) and this will be one corner carving beast. The STS has it's suspension bases covered, so the handling issue really depends on how much of an improvement the new M5 provides over the old.

STS: 440 bhp @ 6400 rpm
M5: 500 bhp @ 7750 rpm

STS: 430 lb-ft @ 3600 rpm
M5: 384 lb-ft @ 6100 rpm

STS
Wheelbase: 116.4 in
Length/width/height: 197.6/72.6/58.2 in
Curb weight: 4300 lb

M5
Wheelbase: 113.7 in
Length/width/height: 191.1/72.7/57.8 in
Curb weight: 4050 lb

Both cars are close in size, the STS being a bit longer (and this is reflected in it's extra weight). Where it makes up for this weight disadvantage is that both it's horse and torque numbers peak much earlier in the powerband than the M5. It also has a much higher torque available sooner and for much longer in it's powerband. Both manufacturers quote very similar performance numbers.

On a track (I'm sure we will be hearing the STS' Nurburgring times very soon now from GM, just as they publicized the CTS-V's), I think they will run very close. Of course, no one knows for sure until they are released and we get some head to head comparisons and track times.

...and not performance oriented, but worth noting due to the current trend in gas pricing:

STS:
City: 16 mpg
Highway: 25 mpg

M5:
City: 10 mpg
Highway: 23 mpg

I believe the M5 to be a very nice car, but I can't justify the $15,000 premium over the STS-V for a car that so far looks to only be it's equal (not even considering the fact that BMW still hasn't massaged the ugliness out of it).

Wait and see, I have a feeling that Cadillac will surprise the bavarians yet again. In fact, I've put my money on it.
__________________
-God is what Mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scope of our comprehension-

Last edited by Gothicaleigh : 04-19-2005 at 05:21 AM.
Gothicaleigh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 08:34 AM   #115
DSMer
CF Extraordinaire
 
DSMer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,639
I'd also like to add that after speaking to a Cadillac representative, the main goal of Cadillac STS-V was not to demolish the M5 in track numbers. Rather beat the M5 and E55 AMG in areas that matter more to the buyers than a bunch of magazines and internet racers . Such as interior styling, ride quality, luxury amenities, passenger space, etc... I highly doubt the greater percentage of people who can afford M5's and STS-V's will be racing them on the tracks or on streets. So track numbers would be useless in over 80% of STS-V, M5, and E55 AMG sales.

People buy these cars because they have style, passenger space, power, and control. Not necessarily in that order, but the general idea of Cadillac is to offer a better sedan. The Cadillac representative even told me, realisticly the STS-V won't probably beat the M5 in every racing category. Which is reasonable to infer. The car is larger and has 67 horsepower less than the M5. None the less, if the performance is close and Cadillac is offering more features stock (as they do in the CTS-V over the M3), the consumers will more than likely sacrifice a few milliseconds of lateral acceleration and some odd number of horsepower to get a car thats just as quick as the M5 and that cost nearly $15,000 less. Especially if that car has a better gas mileage, due to the current hike in gas prices.
__________________

...Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid...

Last edited by DSMer : 04-19-2005 at 08:37 AM.
DSMer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2005, 11:35 PM   #116
-What-
Banned
 
-What-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Everywhere! Previous Join Date: Jul 2004 Status: Banned
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
... I highly doubt the greater percentage of people who can afford M5's and STS-V's will be racing them on the tracks or on streets. So track numbers would be useless in over 80% of STS-V, M5, and E55 AMG sales.
I don't agree with you. If people didn't have intentions on racing or involving themselves in some type of high-speed activity with these vehicle, they'd buy the non-racing variants. If I were to purchase an M5, I'd sure like to take all 7 of those gears and that wonderful engine to a track.

Who buys a hotted-up variant for comfort? Wouldn't a luxury edition of the vehicle serve that purpose better?
-What- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2005, 12:56 AM   #117
DSMer
CF Extraordinaire
 
DSMer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by -What-
I don't agree with you. If people didn't have intentions on racing or involving themselves in some type of high-speed activity with these vehicle, they'd buy the non-racing variants. If I were to purchase an M5, I'd sure like to take all 7 of those gears and that wonderful engine to a track.

Who buys a hotted-up variant for comfort? Wouldn't a luxury edition of the vehicle serve that purpose better?

People who understand the value of a $70,000+ sedan don't think like you do. Why would Brittany Spears buy a SL65 AMG? So she can go to the track with it? No, because shes rich and has the money to buy one(Yes she actually has one). How many of Jerry Sienfields expensive Porsche's does he drive on the track?

Go to an M5 or M3 owners club. A good proportion of them buy the car because they like the fact that it has performance and looks good. Alot of them are just flashy show-like cars. When you have that kind of money to just throw arround maybe you'll understand the idea of having a "toy" car. Wich is all the M5 will be to a good percentage of its consumers. That and a daily driver. If you don't believe me ask BMW how many of their consumers would actually take the new M5 to the track.

Think about it, there are going to be 2 types of people buying cars. Those who can barley afford it and those who can easily afford it. Those who barley can will not likley take their hard earned downpayment on a house to the track and take the risk of damaging it. Those who can easily afford it are either race teams/race enthuisiast who will turn the car into a race car, or greater who buy the car for fun weekend drives and BMW enthuisiast

0-60, 1/4 mile times, and skidpad acceleration are for internet racers, magazine comparisons, and dreamers. Real drivers buy cars like the M5 to have fun doing just that... Driving. It does'nt matter if your can car go from 0-60 in 4.7 seconds or 0-60 in 4.2. It does'nt matter if your car has 440HP or 500HP. The drive is what an enthuisiast buys cars for, not for the numbers.

If your theory were true everyone who buys a Camaro has to race it. Everyone who buys a performance version of the Civic has to race it. Everyone who drives Mustangs, Ferraris, Corvettes, Dodge Vipers, and performance Audis have to race them or involve themselves in a high speed activity. Its obvious that everyone who owns those cars does'nt race. So the same is be true for the M5.
__________________

...Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid...
DSMer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005, 08:40 AM   #118
fedroger
CF Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8
If you are from the United States and you think the Cadillac is an American import, you are ignorant. You can't import an American car if you live in the states.
fedroger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2005, 03:49 AM   #119
Godlaus
UnFedFat in Disguise
 
Godlaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedroger
If you are from the United States and you think the Cadillac is an American import, you are ignorant. You can't import an American car if you live in the states.

DSMer means that it's a American car that kills Import cars.
__________________
I am everything you want to be
Godlaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2005, 06:11 AM   #120
fedroger
CF Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8
I see. Thanks for clarifying that up.
fedroger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:13 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2002 - 2011 Car Forums. All rights reserved.