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Old 08-30-2007, 04:13 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
I already told you. Because not every car GM makes can physically house a V8. Weight... gas... price... would you like me make any more obvious reasons for developing smaller engines? You're selectively choosing what you want to read now.
Actually, you haven't said that anywhere. If me not reading you mind is selective, than yes, I am selectively reading what I want to read. No doubt not every GM car can physically house a V8, but just about all of their performance ones can. The only exception that I can think of is the Cobalt SS. Their have already been numerous LS6s thrown into Skys and Soltices. As far as the weight, we've already discussed that GMs performance engines are just about the same weight as most high hp 4 cylinder motors. They're aluminum and don't need a turbo setup. Price? The sticker on LS1 Camaros was what...25K for a nicely equipped one. Find me an import that makes anything close to that power for less. How about the new GTOs? 28K for 400hp. I think you're selectively choosing what you want to see.



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No the average Joe can't make 400HP out of a 1.6L Honda. An an average joe with alot of money and good performance shops can. Or a very experienced joe with money can. If an average joe could do it then more Honda's would be alot faster.

Why does everyone assume because a car company is large they can do EVERYTHING? Don't you think if GM was so rich they would make a sedan that would rival BMW, AUDI and Mercedes? Or a compact sedan that would be massively bought such as the SRT-4 or EVo? They try. They made an attempt with the CTS-V and the Cobalt SS/ION Redline. But it just didn't work.
If I'm not mistaken the SC'd Cobalt SSs sold pretty well. The Ion/Redline are aimed towards different buyers than the sport compacts. As far as a GM-made BMW rival, I don't think people would buy them even if they made a great car. The low-quality GM stigma will stick with them for years after they make a high quality car. People see a 35K BMW and a 35K GM. Take a guess which company is fighting an uphill battle sales-wise here.
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Old 08-30-2007, 05:31 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giant016
As far as the weight, we've already discussed that GMs performance engines are just about the same weight as most high hp 4 cylinder motors. They're aluminum and don't need a turbo setup. Price? The sticker on LS1 Camaros was what...25K for a nicely equipped one. Find me an import that makes anything close to that power for less. How about the new GTOs? 28K for 400hp. I think you're selectively choosing what you want to see.

There are many imports that make less power and are faster, more responsive and quicker than the GTO and Camaro. Not to mention in the same price range Power isn't everything.

The Evo, STi, and SRT-4 all push about 275+ at the crank running between 13.2-13.8 1/4th times. Which are ALL in the range of LS1 Camaros and LS6 GTO's quartermile times of 13.3-14.0


Quote:
If I'm not mistaken the SC'd Cobalt SSs sold pretty well. The Ion/Redline are aimed towards different buyers than the sport compacts. As far as a GM-made BMW rival, I don't think people would buy them even if they made a great car. The low-quality GM stigma will stick with them for years after they make a high quality car. People see a 35K BMW and a 35K GM. Take a guess which company is fighting an uphill battle sales-wise here.

The Cobalt didn't do well. The Ion Redline has the same engine and drive train as the Cobalt SS. They are aimed at the same people. They bombed... horribly. This is why GM stopped producing them They thought they could penetrate the tuner market with one. But the platform wasn't strong enough.

Low quality isn't a stigma. If you've ever driven a Malibu in comparison to a 5 series, A6, E-class, G35, or even a TL you will see where th low quality design stems from. They call GM cars low quality because when compared to similar cars from other automakers.... they are.

Look at the new design of the 2008 Chevy Malibu. There is a reason why the car looks like an Infiniti/Lexus/BMW/Audi/Mercedes/Acura.

Look at the design of the new 2008 Ford Taurus or Fusion. AWD? "European-like handling".

All of these are just ploys to make their cars look more appealing. American interiors are to rudimentary and feel to geometrical. They look and feel cheap. The lines just don't flow like those in Japaneese or European imports.
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Old 08-30-2007, 06:18 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
There are many imports that make less power and are faster, more responsive and quicker than the GTO and Camaro. Not to mention in the same price range Power isn't everything.

The Evo, STi, and SRT-4 all push about 275+ at the crank running between 13.2-13.8 1/4th times. Which are ALL in the range of LS1 Camaros and LS6 GTO's quartermile times of 13.3-14.0
We were talking motors and power. The Evo, STi, and SRT-4 are all small cars, so of course they will run similiar times with less power. The weight of the car is a useless point when talking about engines in this case. The fact is that the imports aren't making 400hp (stock) from a 4cylinder for anywhere the price of a domestic V8.


Quote:
The Cobalt didn't do well. The Ion Redline has the same engine and drive train as the Cobalt SS. They are aimed at the same people. They bombed... horribly. This is why GM stopped producing them They thought they could penetrate the tuner market with one. But the platform wasn't strong enough.
My mistake. When you said Ion redline, for some reason the Sky redline came to mind, which is aimed at a different crowd. Bu I still wouldn't say the SS or Ion redline bombed horribly. They were still selling for sticker price, and at the GM dealership there were never any that lasted very long. Just because a car gets discontinued doesn't mean it was a sales bomb. Look at the 1994-96 Impalas.

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Low quality isn't a stigma. If you've ever driven a Malibu in comparison to a 5 series, A6, E-class, G35, or even a TL you will see where th low quality design stems from. They call GM cars low quality because when compared to similar cars from other automakers.... they are.
Of course they are, you're comparing a G35 to a Malibu. Not even close to being in the same price class.


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American interiors are to rudimentary and feel to geometrical. They look and feel cheap.
I'll agree with this general statement. Their are probably a few exceptions, but the interior is inferior .
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:36 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giant016
We were talking motors and power.

Discussing the design of an engine without taking into consideration the car its going into is almost as useless as discussing the performance of a tire without referring to suspension settings of said car.You don't need to explain the fact that V8's make more power than I4's.Theres no science into making a 7 liter combustion more powerful than a 2 liter combustion. Thats not an argument. Period.

Your basic argument is "My V8 car has more power and can make it more reliably than most imports. It is also cheaper, faster and more fuel efficient."

1.) Horsepower isn't a total dictation of "performance". Diesel trucks make globs of power. Probably in excess of 400-500HP. However they don't go very fast because they weigh a lot. You can't use your cars weight as crutch either. Its part of the total package.

2.) There are a lot of Honda's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's and Nissan's that make in excess of 400HP that are daily drivers. Reliablity is only as conclusive as the amount of proper work put into the car.

3.) I've shown you a few cars that are inexpensive and can hang with your V8's for cheaper or about the same price. Your V8's are NOT faster. Just as fast or almost as fast, but not definitively faster.

3.) I don't care what you or your numbers say about gas mileage. You're not getting 30mpg out of an LS1 under NORMAL driving conditions. You can't use the highest highway rating as a label. No one lives on the highway and they surely don't drive on them 100% of the time. Be realistic and strop trying to stretch the truth. Shame on you.

As far as it stands. Your ONLY irrefutable point is that your V8 engines make more power. Okay, so what? You have a higher number on a dyno. Again. Its not an argument that you can create more power from a larger combustion. You're only valid point is that the laws of physics are true. You don't need a car to tell you that.
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Old 08-31-2007, 01:37 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
Discussing the design of an engine without taking into consideration the car its going into is almost as useless as discussing the performance of a tire without referring to suspension settings of said car.You don't need to explain the fact that V8's make more power than I4's.Theres no science into making a 7 liter combustion more powerful than a 2 liter combustion. Thats not an argument. Period.

Your basic argument is "My V8 car has more power and can make it more reliably than most imports. It is also cheaper, faster and more fuel efficient."

1.) Horsepower isn't a total dictation of "performance". Diesel trucks make globs of power. Probably in excess of 400-500HP. However they don't go very fast because they weigh a lot. You can't use your cars weight as crutch either. Its part of the total package.
Actually most deisels dont make that much. Most put down around 200whp stock. They may make 4 to 500ft-lbs but rarely that in horsepower, and deisels are so easy to mod. There is a tune that with new injectors will gain you 180hp on a duramax. And most 400-500 hp diesels are pretty quick considering there size. Probably has to do with the 700-900 ft-lbs that would accomodate the 4-500hp
Quote:
2.) There are a lot of Honda's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's and Nissan's that make in excess of 400HP that are daily drivers. Reliablity is only as conclusive as the amount of proper work put into the car.
Yah and there are alot of reliable 700+ hp domestics running around, some NA which none of your imports can claim.

Quote:
3.) I've shown you a few cars that are inexpensive and can hang with your V8's for cheaper or about the same price. Your V8's are NOT faster. Just as fast or almost as fast, but not definitively faster.
Actually Ive seen a stock LS1 dip into the 12s. I think thats faster. It was in GMhigh tech performace

Quote:
3.) I don't care what you or your numbers say about gas mileage. You're not getting 30mpg out of an LS1 under NORMAL driving conditions. You can't use the highest highway rating as a label. No one lives on the highway and they surely don't drive on them 100% of the time. Be realistic and strop trying to stretch the truth. Shame on you.
Its called lots of low end torque and an overdrive or a double overdrive transmission. It is not uncommon at all for 4th Gens to see 30 or more MPG. Ive got 28 with 3.73s in the rear and mine is an LT1 which usually gets worse economy.
Ive seen a cammed LT1 get 34 .
I know of a 445 LS2 making 750 and he can almost crank out 20, but his cam surge kinda hurts his mileage because he cant lug it around.
Quote:
As far as it stands. Your ONLY irrefutable point is that your V8 engines make more power. Okay, so what? You have a higher number on a dyno. Again. Its not an argument that you can create more power from a larger combustion. You're only valid point is that the laws of physics are true. You don't need a car to tell you that.

Maybe he was saying you can make WAY more power with a V8 and still be reliable and do it for ALOT cheaper than you could with a little import 4 banger
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Old 08-31-2007, 04:42 PM   #66
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I think his point may have been more along the lines that most any modern V8 pops out over 300hp and is relatively light weight. The majority of 4 cylinders are under 175hp. Yes some are at 300hp but that is the extreme and the few. Actually right now I can't think of any 300hp 4 cylinder really. STi is at 293. Also, yes there are 400hp 4 cylinder cars, but they are modified. You cant claim that a modified engine is equal to a stock one, for instance an LS2. If so then you might as well bring up the GMPP LSx which is good to 2500hp according to GM themselves.

As for Japanese cars being lighter, in the past definately. Now adays 100-200lbs lighter would be reasonable (Camaro is less than 100lbs heavier than an STi....). NOT big enough of a difference to make up the difference in power and torque. I am not saying V8's are better than I4's. I am saying for performance, the vast majority of V8's and consequently V8 powered cars will whip the shit out of the same for I4's. That is also true of V12's vs V8 and so on. It isn't a domestic v. import thing.

As for the economy. No it is not black magic. It is a double overdrive tranny as stated (realize the T56 has a .5 OD, meaning it cruises at 70mph at something like 1500 rpm depending on gear option). On top of that there is skip shift. Under normal driving conditions it forces you to shift from 1st to 4th instead of 2nd. Since the car is powerful this isn't a problem. As you get deeper into the throttle obviously it is disabled. By gearing out of the powerband you get alot better economy... which is what I was saying in another thread before everyone jumped on me with their opinions on where the best fuel economy lies.
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:53 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
Discussing the design of an engine without taking into consideration the car its going into is almost as useless as discussing the performance of a tire without referring to suspension settings of said car.You don't need to explain the fact that V8's make more power than I4's.Theres no science into making a 7 liter combustion more powerful than a 2 liter combustion. Thats not an argument. Period.
I'm not taking into consideration the rest of the car becuase we weren't discussing the rest of the car. The discussion was why GM doesn't build a high HP 4 or 6 cylinder engine, not why GM doesn't build lighter cars.


Quote:
2.) There are a lot of Honda's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's and Nissan's that make in excess of 400HP that are daily drivers. Reliablity is only as conclusive as the amount of proper work put into the car.
No work needed to push an LS2 up to 400HP. But if you want to tinker with it, 500+HP can be made reliably.

Quote:
3.) I've shown you a few cars that are inexpensive and can hang with your V8's for cheaper or about the same price. Your V8's are NOT faster. Just as fast or almost as fast, but not definitively faster.
I was talking engines, not whole cars. That's not what the debate was about, although you seem to try to shift it that way, perhaps because the 4 cylinders have a chance at that. Since we're talking engines, 1/4 seems like a good reference point. A good driver with a properly equipped LS1 F-body should run a 13 flat under good track conditions. I don't know of any stock import beating that for less money. And if we're going to talk used cars, they can be bought for 6-7K. No way a stock 4 cylinder has a chance of running high 12s for 6-7K.

Quote:
3.) I don't care what you or your numbers say about gas mileage. You're not getting 30mpg out of an LS1 under NORMAL driving conditions. You can't use the highest highway rating as a label. No one lives on the highway and they surely don't drive on them 100% of the time. Be realistic and strop trying to stretch the truth. Shame on you.
Sounds like somebody putting their hands over their ears yelling "LALALALALA, I can't hear you".


Alright, I think you're taking me for some import hating, country western loving, tobacco spitting hillbilly. I like imports and I like domestics. Although I'll always love the burble and feel of a V8 more than a 4 or 6 cylinder, I realize that they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I originally got into the argument because somebody was hating on GM engines. Although I love the LS1, it is not God. However I think it at least hangs with the best import performance engines as far as power, fuel efficieny, reliability, and cost.
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:10 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Enthusiast
Actually most deisels dont make that much. Most put down around 200whp stock. They may make 4 to 500ft-lbs but rarely that in horsepower, and deisels are so easy to mod. There is a tune that with new injectors will gain you 180hp on a duramax. And most 400-500 hp diesels are pretty quick considering there size. Probably has to do with the 700-900 ft-lbs that would accomodate the 4-500hp

Yah and there are alot of reliable 700+ hp domestics running around, some NA which none of your imports can claim.


Actually Ive seen a stock LS1 dip into the 12s. I think thats faster. It was in GMhigh tech performace


Its called lots of low end torque and an overdrive or a double overdrive transmission. It is not uncommon at all for 4th Gens to see 30 or more MPG. Ive got 28 with 3.73s in the rear and mine is an LT1 which usually gets worse economy.
Ive seen a cammed LT1 get 34 .
I know of a 445 LS2 making 750 and he can almost crank out 20, but his cam surge kinda hurts his mileage because he cant lug it around.


Maybe he was saying you can make WAY more power with a V8 and still be reliable and do it for ALOT cheaper than you could with a little import 4 banger

Diesel TRUCKS put down in excess of 300+HP. Diesel Semi's put down in excess of 400+ HP. What the f*ck are you talking about?

Who cares about 700HP Camaros? This only supports my theory of reliability being conclusive to the work put into the car. Thank you.

Show me the times and proper documentation of a stock Camaro or GTO going into the 12's. I can surely show you the car and driver documentation of my numbers. Where are yours?

Show me some proper documentation of a city road test. Then I'll take that into consideration. I have documentation of road test of a Camaro. It does NOT show 28mpg.

Quote:
I think his point may have been more along the lines that most any modern V8 pops out over 300hp and is relatively light weight. The majority of 4 cylinders are under 175hp. Yes some are at 300hp but that is the extreme and the few. Actually right now I can't think of any 300hp 4 cylinder really. STi is at 293. Also, yes there are 400hp 4 cylinder cars, but they are modified. You cant claim that a modified engine is equal to a stock one, for instance an LS2. If so then you might as well bring up the GMPP LSx which is good to 2500hp according to GM themselves.

As for Japanese cars being lighter, in the past definately. Now adays 100-200lbs lighter would be reasonable (Camaro is less than 100lbs heavier than an STi....). NOT big enough of a difference to make up the difference in power and torque. I am not saying V8's are better than I4's. I am saying for performance, the vast majority of V8's and consequently V8 powered cars will whip the shit out of the same for I4's. That is also true of V12's vs V8 and so on. It isn't a domestic v. import thing.

As for the economy. No it is not black magic. It is a double overdrive tranny as stated (realize the T56 has a .5 OD, meaning it cruises at 70mph at something like 1500 rpm depending on gear option). On top of that there is skip shift. Under normal driving conditions it forces you to shift from 1st to 4th instead of 2nd. Since the car is powerful this isn't a problem. As you get deeper into the throttle obviously it is disabled. By gearing out of the powerband you get alot better economy... which is what I was saying in another thread before everyone jumped on me with their opinions on where the best fuel economy lies.

Who care about power. My stock imports can run just as fast down the 1/4th with the v8s. Lets not even talk about the track because that will be a slaughter.

100lbs doesn't make a difference? Tell that to any bracket racer and see what they say. You're full of shit. Let that be taken down on the record.

70mph? Show me a daily trip that allows you you to drive 70mph throughout the ENTIRE drive. I don't give a shit about highways mileage. People don't live on highways. They live on residential streets. You can't use highway mileage as your crutch. Yes it IS a crutch.

Quote:
I'm not taking into consideration the rest of the car becuase we weren't discussing the rest of the car. The discussion was why GM doesn't build a high HP 4 or 6 cylinder engine, not why GM doesn't build lighter cars.

No work needed to push an LS2 up to 400HP. But if you want to tinker with it, 500+HP can be made reliably.

I was talking engines, not whole cars. That's not what the debate was about, although you seem to try to shift it that way, perhaps because the 4 cylinders have a chance at that. Since we're talking engines, 1/4 seems like a good reference point. A good driver with a properly equipped LS1 F-body should run a 13 flat under good track conditions. I don't know of any stock import beating that for less money. And if we're going to talk used cars, they can be bought for 6-7K. No way a stock 4 cylinder has a chance of running high 12s for 6-7K.

Sounds like somebody putting their hands over their ears yelling "LALALALALA, I can't hear you".


Alright, I think you're taking me for some import hating, country western loving, tobacco spitting hillbilly. I like imports and I like domestics. Although I'll always love the burble and feel of a V8 more than a 4 or 6 cylinder, I realize that they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I originally got into the argument because somebody was hating on GM engines. Although I love the LS1, it is not God. However I think it at least hangs with the best import performance engines as far as power, fuel efficieny, reliability, and cost.


V8's are more powerful than I4 engines. We've already agreed upon that.

Fuel efficiency is a f*cking worthless battle. You're using more fuel per combustion... PERIOD.

Cost is about the same

Reliability is neglegant. This all depends on how the engine is built.
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Old 09-01-2007, 10:15 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
Show me the times and proper documentation of a stock Camaro or GTO going into the 12's. I can surely show you the car and driver documentation of my numbers. Where are yours?
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o...8/scan0014.jpg
^^^GMHTP running 12.9. Theres another article of them running a 12.89 in a Z28, but I can't find it. Google 12.89 GMHTP and you'll see people talking about it. I believe Car and driver also brought a T/A into the 12's.
Quote:
Show me some proper documentation of a city road test. Then I'll take that into consideration. I have documentation of road test of a Camaro. It does NOT show 28mpg.
I've got no physical proof. I know it's true, if you want to believe it, cool. If not, it's understandable do to the lack of official testing proving this. If you're going to go by what the factory says though, you'd be believing that it's making 305HP at the flywheel.


Quote:
Who care about power. My stock imports can run just as fast down the 1/4th with the v8s. Lets not even talk about the track because that will be a slaughter.
I care about power because that is more or less what the argument was about. We were discussing engines, and unless you want to talk torque (I don't think you want to go there) that's how I measure performance engines. And I wouldn't say slaughter, I'm pulling about .9gs stock. But still, that's not even what the argument was about, it seems you're trying to steer it in directions that you can win.


Quote:
70mph? Show me a daily trip that allows you you to drive 70mph throughout the ENTIRE drive. I don't give a shit about highways mileage. People don't live on highways. They live on residential streets. You can't use highway mileage as your crutch. Yes it IS a crutch.
My city MPG is pretty respectable as well. I believe the last time I checked I got about 19MPG all city. Of the 6000 or so miles I put on the SS a year, about 1/2 of them are highway. I live on a residential street, but if I want to go anywhere worth going I have to take the highway.


Quote:
Fuel efficiency is a f*cking worthless battle. You're using more fuel per combustion... PERIOD.
Yes, but that one combustion will propel me further than your one combustion. Also remember that I'm at a much lower RPM than you, so even if I am using more gas per combustion, I have less combustions in the same amount of time that you do.
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:55 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by DSMer
Who care about power. My stock imports can run just as fast down the 1/4th with the v8s. Lets not even talk about the track because that will be a slaughter.

YOUR stock imports? What are you talking about. Seriously. I own both imports and domestics. I can appreciate both. I prefer import chassis designs and domestic engines. I can atleast respect both though. I don't claim either to be my side though. Thats silly. Did you actually know that alot of stock imports have V8's? In fact did you know that most of the FAST stock imports have 8 cylinders or more? Amazing isn't it. So yes, YOUR stock imports (which also happen to often use V8's) can run just as fast as V8s (assuming you mean V8 powered domestic cars). Whats so amazing about it. Of course imports can be as fast as domestics and visa versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
100lbs doesn't make a difference? Tell that to any bracket racer and see what they say. You're full of shit. Let that be taken down on the record..

You not only took what I said out of context, you also modified what I said. I said 100lbs is not big enough of a difference to make up for the difference of power and torque between two different cars. That was in regards to acceleration purely. YES 100lbs is a big deal, my car is built with weight in mind, trust me I understand lb/hp. NO it is not enough to make up the difference of an extra 20hp. You can put whatever you want on record, doesn't change anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
70mph? Show me a daily trip that allows you you to drive 70mph throughout the ENTIRE drive. I don't give a shit about highways mileage. People don't live on highways. They live on residential streets. You can't use highway mileage as your crutch. Yes it IS a crutch.

EPA Highway MPG testing never excedes 60mph. Average is 48mph. An additional 22% is added to the total to apply to more real world cases where people jab the throttle and such. The camaro gets 28mpg according to those regulations, which is quite good considering many cars with less power do worse. Please try and understand that the 70mph comment was only to point out that with such low rpms at 70mph and LS1 can sip fuel quite efficently, which is true, regardless or weather you bring up that speeds change. Obviously they do, that effects all cars, and testing reflects that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
V8's are more powerful than I4 engines. We've already agreed upon that.

Fuel efficiency is a f*cking worthless battle. You're using more fuel per combustion... PERIOD.

Cost is about the same

Reliability is neglegant. This all depends on how the engine is built.

No you aren't necessarily using more fuel per combustion in a V8. Why do you say that? I would think the top #5 engineering school would teach you something as basic as that. If an I4 needs to spin to 8000rpm to make its power and a V8 of double the displacement spins to 4000rpm then they will be sucking in approximately the same amount of air and fuel. So???? I am not claiming V8's to be better than I4's or visa versa for any one situation. It totally depends. It is dumb though to disregard the fact that V8 powered cars TYPICALLY perform better than 4 cylinder cars. Weather or not V8's are better is of minimal importance, manufacturer realize the average performance car buyer doesn't want an I4. This is shown many times through what they supply. There is a reason their are very few mass market performance vehicles using I4's. The only ones I can think of are the Evo, STI, and Elise. Anything else with 4 cylinders is in the high 5 seconds to 60 at best.
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