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Old 05-05-2004, 02:51 AM   #166
BavarianWheels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my67falcon
Well vwhobo, let me tell you something. My dads buddy has a sister thatís knows a guy that worked with someone with a garage and he was a racer and NASCAR...

Ahem...vwhobo is no longer here...

All that for nothing.


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Old 05-05-2004, 02:58 PM   #167
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Story of my life. A day late and $2.75 short. (inflation)
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Old 05-20-2004, 04:56 PM   #168
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Some good info and lots of BS. But I take it all in good humor.

Hello Everyone,

Nice to see some of the information here is fairly usefull. I have a 68 Mercury Cougar with a 351C 2V with an edlebrock intake manifold that lets me put on a 4bbl. Flow master dual exhast along with shift kit in my tranny.

Been told by 2 experts in the field I have a non standard cam set in the engine, I have to go through the maintence records and see what they are because I have no clue. Engine was rebuilt only 2 and a half years ago yet the bastards did a piss poor job on a head gasket. Blew that out a few weeks ago.

So I've torn apart the engine with the help of a friend who is a motor head and this is what I've found out.

PArts for a 351C vary. You have the 2v, 4v, BOSS, COBRA JET, and Modified. Once you get past which one you have and pound it into the head of the person your talking to you can get your parts without problem.

Prices don't seem all that bad in comparison with the Windsor in my experience. Was pricing out heads, valves and other things just in case.

As it was I neeed to hard seat and replace my exhaust valves. That with pressure testing, shaving comes to about 500 bucks.

Now I know I'm a bit off topic here. But since this is a good thread for it.

From the information I've found my stock 351C 2V has about 315hp. Right or wrong?

Adding my Edlebrock intake manifold blah blah 2v model with a Edlebrock 4bbl gives me another 75 hp. Not sure what my cam set gives me. Not sure if my exhaust gives me anything.

But for my 68 Cougar XR7 I'll be more than happy. From my pespective the engine seems to really open up once I hit 40 From 40-100 goes faster than the 0-40 imho. The shift kit kicks in and the car just lunges forward like nothing I've driven before.

But hey, I'm not a racer, I'm just a kid who had dad say no to buying a 67 Cougar 17 years ago. Finally got one. Love the lines on the car and the 351C inside. I've always heard A W was a better truck engine vs. the C. Again it'a a matter of perspective imho. But for pure power the C vs the W does seem to outperfomr it. PArts are there, not as many, but they are there and reasonably priced.
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Old 05-20-2004, 05:22 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton
Hello Everyone,

Nice to see some of the information here is fairly usefull. I have a 68 Mercury Cougar with a 351C 2V with an edlebrock intake manifold that lets me put on a 4bbl. Flow master dual exhast along with shift kit in my tranny.

Been told by 2 experts in the field I have a non standard cam set in the engine, I have to go through the maintence records and see what they are because I have no clue. Engine was rebuilt only 2 and a half years ago yet the bastards did a piss poor job on a head gasket. Blew that out a few weeks ago.

So I've torn apart the engine with the help of a friend who is a motor head and this is what I've found out.

PArts for a 351C vary. You have the 2v, 4v, BOSS, COBRA JET, and Modified. Once you get past which one you have and pound it into the head of the person your talking to you can get your parts without problem.

Prices don't seem all that bad in comparison with the Windsor in my experience. Was pricing out heads, valves and other things just in case.

As it was I neeed to hard seat and replace my exhaust valves. That with pressure testing, shaving comes to about 500 bucks.

Now I know I'm a bit off topic here. But since this is a good thread for it.

From the information I've found my stock 351C 2V has about 315hp. Right or wrong?

Adding my Edlebrock intake manifold blah blah 2v model with a Edlebrock 4bbl gives me another 75 hp. Not sure what my cam set gives me. Not sure if my exhaust gives me anything.

But for my 68 Cougar XR7 I'll be more than happy. From my pespective the engine seems to really open up once I hit 40 From 40-100 goes faster than the 0-40 imho. The shift kit kicks in and the car just lunges forward like nothing I've driven before.

But hey, I'm not a racer, I'm just a kid who had dad say no to buying a 67 Cougar 17 years ago. Finally got one. Love the lines on the car and the 351C inside. I've always heard A W was a better truck engine vs. the C. Again it'a a matter of perspective imho. But for pure power the C vs the W does seem to outperfomr it. PArts are there, not as many, but they are there and reasonably priced.

315 would be gross, modern figures are quoted in SAE and DIN
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Old 05-23-2004, 01:21 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
Please supply me with the imaginary information for making this conversion. And please tell me what car a 351 Cleveland with 380 hp came in. Thank you.

Well we had the Falcon XY GTHO here in 1970/71 that put out 380bhp standard. It was the fastest production car in the world at the time.
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Old 06-10-2004, 03:36 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
If somebody doesn't stop the flow of bullshit it simply continues. If...told enough times it becomes believed to be a fact.

While it isn't exactly BS...a basic misconception is that the Cleveland has a weak bottom end or that it has a weak oiling system or many other supposed weaknesses. Every engine has weaknesses when they are pushed beyond the reasonable design limitations (compromises) of both material and structural strengths.

My 351 Cleveland engine makes 608 HP. It is stroked to 393 CID and is far from stock. Does this mean that it has a weak bottom end? What constitutes a weak bottom end versus a strong one?

The Cleveland is somewhat harder to fit into tight places. The heads are massive and having that much bulk atop an engine means less room for exhaust manifolds. Everything having anything to do with automobiles is a series of compromises.

No, there was never a US domestic factory rated power of 380-something for a Cleveland. Most of the "high performance" variants here were rated at 335 HP.


...can you say 608 HP?

Whether or not the Windsor is somehow "better" than a Cleveland is really a matter of opinion, and more than anything else the history behind these engines--and their production facilities--sheds some light on it.

The factory Cleveland heads were not exceptional in any particular way except that they are very nearly a copy of a big block Chevy head shrunk down to fit on a small block Ford.

The classic "poor bottom end performance" from having TOO much of a generally accepted "good thing" was true in theory and oftentimes in practice with the Cleveland, but many 4V Cleveland engines run very well throughout their entire RPM range as a result of their owner's understanding them and how to properly use them.

Part of the difficulty in parts availability is from the lack of a long history of building the engines. The 351C was built in the US from 1970 to 1973 and during a period of time where aftermarket parts were largely bolt-ons and cylinder heads were not really part of that category in those days!

Australia Ford plants continued to produce the C in volume until 1989 (or thereabouts, I believe). Australia also had a unique offering that is known as a 302C, which is basically a 3" stroke crank in a 351 Cleveland engine block.

With only 3 years of production volumes in the US, engine parts are rather scarce in comparison to the Windsor, which is basically any of the 260-351W variants produced from about 1963 to somewhere around 1991 (I'm no Windsor's dates expert). Windsor people "in the know" also know that the "preferred" W heads are the C9 and D0 castings that are also very scarce due to their relatively short production term.


...every part new or readily available used, though the blocks are becoming rarer and rarer, probably because I'm hording 11 of them in my storage!

If anything is weak about the Cleveland, it is the thin wall block castings and consistently "sloppy" manufacturing/production of them. However, one can easily argue that it is NOT the FoMoCo's engineering department's responsibility to ensure that you can race a production car engine to 2-3 times its factory rated power levels.

In summary, vwhobo, it might be wiser to question the statements you've made about the Cleveland to truly understand whether you're simply promoting the misinformation you say you want to stop.

My Cleveland was built in about 3 months, of which most of the time was waiting in line at the machine shop. Parts abound for the Cleveland. Are they more expensive? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes no. A couple of days ago I bought a brand new full billet timing chain and gear set on eBay for $59.50...to go into my "next" Cleveland engine. Brand new alloy cylinder heads exist for the Cleveland at a price comparable to those available for the Windsor. The only thing that you can't really buy new any more is a block, and with the relatively easy interchange between the SVO blocks and the fact that crankshaft makers all make cranks for them, a Dart or SVO block are the way to go for serious output anyway.

This year I predict that a factory Cleveland engine block is going to win the coveted Engine Master's Challenge and will make at least 750 HP using a carburetor and 92 octane unleaded gasoline. That's a fairly tough number for any engine, regardless of maker.


...not exactly a whimpy bottom end.

Enough of my mindless dribble. You have to ask yourself a question. What do you really know about a Cleveland engine that gives you any form of expertise on the subject? I don't mean to be rude or insensitive, but if you're really trying to prevent BS, what credentials are you using for your knowledge of the C engine?

If you know where to look, Cleveland parts are plentiful and not overly expensive. The worst Cleveland head (351M and 400) outperforms the best Windsor head (C9/D0)--qualifying statement follows--as produced by FoMoCo.

It is without a doubt that the Clevelanders know that given the SAME budget, that they can blow away a Windsor engine in every category except maybe total displacement feasible. My poor little 393 made more torque and total horsepower than a friend of mine's 408W and both engines were relatively similar in budget, compression ratio (11.25:1) and camshaft type (solid roller) and camshaft properties (lift/duration). The difference was really 3" mains versus 2.749" and his "new technology" alloy Edelbrock Victor (whichever the "good ones" are) heads compared to my used, $1000 Ford Motorsports A3 heads circa 1982.

I'm sure that this, my first post to this forum, has worn out my welcome here, but I hope that you won't have any difficulty accepting some of this at face value while noting much of it is just meant to be put forth as light humor and certainly not any kind of real or intentional attack on you as an individual.

:davis:
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Old 07-02-2004, 03:35 AM   #172
CantheMan
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Question

Ive herd alot about the 351C and how much stock horsepower it has, but how much stock horse power does the 351W have? and also, im gunna drop one of those 2 engines into my 77 maverick that currently has a 250 in it and i was wondering which one would be a better choice
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Old 07-02-2004, 04:37 AM   #173
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I also wanted to know if i could drop a GM 350 into my car with the same changes that i could do if i dropped a 351 into it, like motor mounts and crossmember and suspension, or if the 350 wouldnt fit the same as a 351 would
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:21 PM   #174
Shawnp182
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No doubt go cleveland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Widowmaker2k
I'm just curious as to which is considered a better engine nowadays. I've heard that stock for stock the Cleveland is better, but that the Windsor has a better aftermarket? Any thoughts?

ok here's what ive experienced

I have a 70 Mach-1 with a 2v 351 cleveland its pumping out about 300 hp stock except for the intake and carb. My grandpa has a 70 coupe with a windsor thats barely pushing 250. If you want the cheaper fix go windsor. If you want overall better engine go cleveland. The clevelands will take more work since they are wider. I still dont know why anyone would want a windsore with that goofy head off to the side of the block. What's up with that why did they do that?
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:25 PM   #175
Shawnp182
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stock info

stock information for yall

351 cleveland 2 barrel-250 hp stock
351 cleveland 4 barrel-300 hp stock
351 windsor-250 hp stock

i know someone who bored and stroked his cleveland to 409? cubic inches i think? and its pumping out about 650 hp the funny thing is he still drives it on the street!!!!! It gets about 8 miles ,on the highway, to the gallon! thats crazy
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:30 PM   #176
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amen

Quote:
Originally Posted by davis
While it isn't exactly BS...a basic misconception is that the Cleveland has a weak bottom end or that it has a weak oiling system or many other supposed weaknesses. Every engine has weaknesses when they are pushed beyond the reasonable design limitations (compromises) of both material and structural strengths.

My 351 Cleveland engine makes 608 HP. It is stroked to 393 CID and is far from stock. Does this mean that it has a weak bottom end? What constitutes a weak bottom end versus a strong one?

The Cleveland is somewhat harder to fit into tight places. The heads are massive and having that much bulk atop an engine means less room for exhaust manifolds. Everything having anything to do with automobiles is a series of compromises.

No, there was never a US domestic factory rated power of 380-something for a Cleveland. Most of the "high performance" variants here were rated at 335 HP.


...can you say 608 HP?

Whether or not the Windsor is somehow "better" than a Cleveland is really a matter of opinion, and more than anything else the history behind these engines--and their production facilities--sheds some light on it.

The factory Cleveland heads were not exceptional in any particular way except that they are very nearly a copy of a big block Chevy head shrunk down to fit on a small block Ford.

The classic "poor bottom end performance" from having TOO much of a generally accepted "good thing" was true in theory and oftentimes in practice with the Cleveland, but many 4V Cleveland engines run very well throughout their entire RPM range as a result of their owner's understanding them and how to properly use them.

Part of the difficulty in parts availability is from the lack of a long history of building the engines. The 351C was built in the US from 1970 to 1973 and during a period of time where aftermarket parts were largely bolt-ons and cylinder heads were not really part of that category in those days!

Australia Ford plants continued to produce the C in volume until 1989 (or thereabouts, I believe). Australia also had a unique offering that is known as a 302C, which is basically a 3" stroke crank in a 351 Cleveland engine block.

With only 3 years of production volumes in the US, engine parts are rather scarce in comparison to the Windsor, which is basically any of the 260-351W variants produced from about 1963 to somewhere around 1991 (I'm no Windsor's dates expert). Windsor people "in the know" also know that the "preferred" W heads are the C9 and D0 castings that are also very scarce due to their relatively short production term.


...every part new or readily available used, though the blocks are becoming rarer and rarer, probably because I'm hording 11 of them in my storage!

If anything is weak about the Cleveland, it is the thin wall block castings and consistently "sloppy" manufacturing/production of them. However, one can easily argue that it is NOT the FoMoCo's engineering department's responsibility to ensure that you can race a production car engine to 2-3 times its factory rated power levels.

In summary, vwhobo, it might be wiser to question the statements you've made about the Cleveland to truly understand whether you're simply promoting the misinformation you say you want to stop.

My Cleveland was built in about 3 months, of which most of the time was waiting in line at the machine shop. Parts abound for the Cleveland. Are they more expensive? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes no. A couple of days ago I bought a brand new full billet timing chain and gear set on eBay for $59.50...to go into my "next" Cleveland engine. Brand new alloy cylinder heads exist for the Cleveland at a price comparable to those available for the Windsor. The only thing that you can't really buy new any more is a block, and with the relatively easy interchange between the SVO blocks and the fact that crankshaft makers all make cranks for them, a Dart or SVO block are the way to go for serious output anyway.

This year I predict that a factory Cleveland engine block is going to win the coveted Engine Master's Challenge and will make at least 750 HP using a carburetor and 92 octane unleaded gasoline. That's a fairly tough number for any engine, regardless of maker.


...not exactly a whimpy bottom end.

Enough of my mindless dribble. You have to ask yourself a question. What do you really know about a Cleveland engine that gives you any form of expertise on the subject? I don't mean to be rude or insensitive, but if you're really trying to prevent BS, what credentials are you using for your knowledge of the C engine?

If you know where to look, Cleveland parts are plentiful and not overly expensive. The worst Cleveland head (351M and 400) outperforms the best Windsor head (C9/D0)--qualifying statement follows--as produced by FoMoCo.

It is without a doubt that the Clevelanders know that given the SAME budget, that they can blow away a Windsor engine in every category except maybe total displacement feasible. My poor little 393 made more torque and total horsepower than a friend of mine's 408W and both engines were relatively similar in budget, compression ratio (11.25:1) and camshaft type (solid roller) and camshaft properties (lift/duration). The difference was really 3" mains versus 2.749" and his "new technology" alloy Edelbrock Victor (whichever the "good ones" are) heads compared to my used, $1000 Ford Motorsports A3 heads circa 1982.

I'm sure that this, my first post to this forum, has worn out my welcome here, but I hope that you won't have any difficulty accepting some of this at face value while noting much of it is just meant to be put forth as light humor and certainly not any kind of real or intentional attack on you as an individual.

:davis:




finally someone knows what theyre talking about!!

MIne's a 351 2v cleveland with stock heads, stock hydraulic cam, edelbrock performer 2v intake which enables it to use a 4 barrel carb. My carb right now is a holley 600. Me and my dad are going to take the engine out this fall and put it on a stand and put a solid lift cam and new rocker arms lifters all that on there. New demon 750 cfm carb on there. Pretty much go with the 351 boss config. If anyone here didnt know that the boss wouldve been the fastest engine in 1970 if they wouldve made it in 70 not in 71.
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Old 07-17-2004, 05:21 AM   #177
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Cleveland Performer

I just purchased a 351 Cleveland that I am going to rebuild into a street performer. I know there are alot of people in here who like the cleveland engine and even have one themselves. I need help finding performance part for my engine. Like where can I get headers? Every website I go to or magazine I look in only has headers for the windsor. Is there a company that make performance Cylinder heads for the cleveland or do I have to have the stock ones machined? I know I am getting my cam, push rods, and roller rockers from Comp Cams. And I already got a 4V 750 CFM Speed Demon Carb from Barry Grant (Demon Carbs). Now I just need to find a performance Crankshaft, pistons, intake manifold, and headers? Any advice would be great.
Thanks again.
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Old 07-17-2004, 10:29 PM   #178
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German members of US car clubs saying that generally clevelands are better, the best windsors (in German view) are the 1970's Lincoln (Ford) big block's


Do they right?
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Old 08-10-2004, 09:41 AM   #179
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<edit text> No sense in drumming up very old arguments.
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Last edited by BavarianWheels : 08-10-2004 at 04:14 PM.
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