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Old 01-10-2005, 04:16 AM   #1
Solar
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Honda Civic Driver's...

Why do all you guys hate on "ricers?" So what if we have big wings on our cars and big mufflers, whats the big deal. The point is, our Civic's are faster than most cars and can smoke cars twice as expensive. My 1995 Honda Civic DX is quick as a whip and cheap too boot. All you guys in your fancy domestics and supra's are just a bunch of idiots. All I can say is, eat my Apexi dust....
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Old 01-10-2005, 05:05 AM   #2
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i have a civic too, granted i have a small spoon spoiler, small quiet spoon muffler, and small wheels... can i see a pic of yours?
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Old 01-10-2005, 06:01 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar
Why do all you guys hate on "ricers?" So what if we have big wings on our cars and big mufflers, whats the big deal. The point is, our Civic's are faster than most cars and can smoke cars twice as expensive. My 1995 Honda Civic DX is quick as a whip and cheap too boot. All you guys in your fancy domestics and supra's are just a bunch of idiots. All I can say is, eat my Apexi dust....

You have to put a lot of money into a civic to beat a stock GTR.
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar
Why do all you guys hate on "ricers?" So what if we have big wings on our cars and big mufflers, whats the big deal. The point is, our Civic's are faster than most cars and can smoke cars twice as expensive. My 1995 Honda Civic DX is quick as a whip and cheap too boot. All you guys in your fancy domestics and supra's are just a bunch of idiots. All I can say is, eat my Apexi dust....

whyd you say supras
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Old 01-10-2005, 07:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar
Why do all you guys hate on "ricers?" So what if we have big wings on our cars and big mufflers, whats the big deal. The point is, our Civic's are faster than most cars and can smoke cars twice as expensive. My 1995 Honda Civic DX is quick as a whip and cheap too boot. All you guys in your fancy domestics and supra's are just a bunch of idiots. All I can say is, eat my Apexi dust....


Rice is an attitude, also, people do things like buy huge spoilers on a FWD car. now what good will that do on your civic? is ricing your car more about looking good or going fast? Cuz according to you, it's going fast, when you still put downforce on the back wheels. If anything, that will make you lose traction.
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Old 01-11-2005, 01:15 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Godlaus
Rice is an attitude, also, people do things like buy huge spoilers on a FWD car. now what good will that do on your civic? is ricing your car more about looking good or going fast? Cuz according to you, it's going fast, when you still put downforce on the back wheels. If anything, that will make you lose traction.

Amen, if you have a fwd car & your dum enough to slap weight on the rear to raise your Front, you shouldn't be modding a car. hehe. In fact my friend use to race a fwd civic, he NEVER had anything in his trunk
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Old 01-11-2005, 04:38 PM   #7
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what is the point of a big ass wing unless u just want looks
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Old 01-11-2005, 05:24 PM   #8
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this has been discuss numerous times....
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Old 01-11-2005, 05:28 PM   #9
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Civics are nippy cars there not particulary fast and skylines and supras are in a diffrent league. The civic Type R is a diffrent story . As far as ricing goes all i can say is .. "to each there own"
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Old 01-11-2005, 07:37 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ki2AY
this has been discuss numerous times....

yeah, I know, but it doesn't hurt to bring it up again. ChrisV, wherefore art thou? You're particulary open-minedd in this subject, so please, contribue to this post.

Rice is attitude, not what you do to your car.

I guess it's 2 parts also, if you want to go fast or look fast, and whether or not you meet the expectations to either of those two options.
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Old 01-11-2005, 08:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godlaus
Rice is an attitude, also, people do things like buy huge spoilers on a FWD car. now what good will that do on your civic? is ricing your car more about looking good or going fast? Cuz according to you, it's going fast, when you still put downforce on the back wheels. If anything, that will make you lose traction.

Bzzzt wrong answer.

Quote:
Amen, if you have a fwd car & your dum enough to slap weight on the rear to raise your Front

Bzzt wrong answer AGAIN.

Before I begin this recurring lecture on rear wings, let me say that yes, Rice is an attitude, not really what you do (though putting fake parts, like a fake BOV to imitate teh sound of one, and a fake plastic intercooler to LOOK like you have an intercooler and turbo, is Rice because teh ONLY attitude beihind it is a ricy one). And the initial post in this thread is indicative of ignorant ricer attitude:

Quote:
The point is, our Civic's are faster than most cars and can smoke cars twice as expensive. My 1995 Honda Civic DX is quick as a whip and cheap too boot. All you guys in your fancy domestics and supra's are just a bunch of idiots.

This is a prime example of ignorant idiocy. The day an 18 second quarter mile Civic with a CAI and other minor tweaks allowing it to run 16s (or 15s if I'm generous) beating the average 12-14 second musclecar is the day that my Fiat beats an Enzo.

I loved my CRX Si, but IT was faster than a CAI equipped DX and I wouldn't be stupid enough to say it could beat even my smogged '78 Trans Am, much less any Modern musclecar.

.................................................. ...

Now, on to the millionth time of explaining rear wings on FWD cars...

They do NOT, repeat do NOT reduce front traction. Ever. Period. Full stop.

The average rear spoiler weighs 10 lbs or less. The mass cannot affect the car in any way OTHER than requiring stiffer struts to hold the trunk/hatch up. Period. if 10 lbs is going to make a differnce in accelleration, eat less Pizza the week before.

Rear wings are not for accellerative traction even on RWD drag cars! as the speed that you NEED the added traction (at launch) the wing isn't doing enough to make a difference.

The car does NOT pivot around the front wheels with a wing any more than it does without the wing. Wing or not, there will be no change in FRONT traction under accelleration or braking.

Why a rear wing?

Most modern cars are vaguely wing shaped to begin with. With modern low noses and air dam shaped bumpers, there is negative lift at the front of a car. Once above about 50 mph, turbulance forms over the rear window. This causes a low pressure zone and drag. THat low pressure zone causes LIFT at the rear of the car. A spoiler or wing can redirect this airflow over the roof, reattatching it until it's past the car, reducing lift and in fact reducing drag (as long as no downforce is being generated). Increasing the angle of attack can start generating downforce, but also starts to increase drag again (though there is a point where the drag equals that of teh turbulent air without a wing, but there is downforce instead of lift at the rear. This is a very hard to hit target and takes trial and error, and few feel the need to do this). the downforce added is additional to the front downforce that already exists. It does NOT cancel it out, or cause the front end to lift. Period.

Why a wing can be useful on a FWD car...

FWD cars naturally understeer. At low speeds, this is all they may do, and require you to go through corners slowly. At high speeds (60 mph and above) letting off teh gas or getting on teh brakes transferrs weight forward which can cause teh front end to lose traction first, but ALSO, if entering a corner, can cause teh REAR (which already is generating lift) to get light enough to want to spin. there have been MANY crashes of FWD cars that spun under trailing throttle conditions (and Audi had to recall the TT to add a rear spoiler to fix this).

Suspension wise, you can counter the tendency to understeer at lower speeds by increasing stiffness at the rear, eith er with stiffer springs, or with a lartger swaybar. This makes teh car turn in better, meaning you can go faster through teh low speed corners (say going through a corner at 40 that would have had to be gone through at 25 before). Unfortunately, this makes the car even MORE unstable when slowing for a higher speed corner (or even just going real fast in a straight line). What to do?

Enter the wing. Adding the wing will not affect the car noticeably below 60 or so, meaning the larger swaybar allows the car to go faster through low speed corners. But by removing rear lift and adding rear downforce, even a tiny bit, the car can remain stable entering a corner at 60-80 mph (such as a freeway offramp), thus increasing speed though faster sweepers, as well. On a road course, this means greater corner entry speed and greater exit speed, making the straights between the corners "shorter" even if you've reduced top speed by 5 mph or so with the added drag of teh rear wing.

In this way you can actually make a car faster from point A to point B without adding a single horsepower AND while reducing the top speed slightly.

the point of this lecture? A rear wing can help a FWD car if properly adjusted 9though most street cars aren't). And an improperly adjusted rear wing will most likely NOT negatively affect a street car at legal speeds. (though one with a negative angle of attack can generat more rear lift making the car more unstable at speeds over 6-80mph.

Oh, that brings me to another myth: wings only work at high speed. Too often we see people looking at a car with a rear wing and saying, "I hope he plans on going over 150 to need that wing" or "that car can't go fast enough for that huge wing to work."

Wings start working as soon as air is flowing over them. A Piper Cub airplane can FLY at 35mph. (he larger the wing (in relation to the mass it's working against) the LOWER the speed at which it becomes effective. (in fact it could be argued that the typical huge double decker Ricer wing is necessary on the slow cars precisely becaeu they are too slow to be able to make a smaller wing work... ) You want to test this? Drive at 50 with your hand out the window, palm flat down. Twist your wrist up and down and fel teh air push your hand up and down. Now picture something with 30-40 times your hand's surface area at that speed...
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Old 01-12-2005, 02:23 AM   #12
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Nice lecture on the wings, that's what I always thought.

About the ricer thingy, I like the car to go fast, but I also like the car looks nice , if the car looks better with a spoiler, then why not put it there.
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Old 01-12-2005, 02:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
Wings start working as soon as air is flowing over them. A Piper Cub airplane can FLY at 35mph. (he larger the wing (in relation to the mass it's working against) the LOWER the speed at which it becomes effective. (in fact it could be argued that the typical huge double decker Ricer wing is necessary on the slow cars precisely becaeu they are too slow to be able to make a smaller wing work... ) You want to test this? Drive at 50 with your hand out the window, palm flat down. Twist your wrist up and down and fel teh air push your hand up and down. Now picture something with 30-40 times your hand's surface area at that speed...

This i can't really agree with. I thought there was to much drag involved with wings until about 60-70 mph? (not 150, like the myth says). Sure your analogy works, any your hand has to be 30-40 times larger, but it also has to weigh 6000 times as much. (estimating here).

I never meant the wing created less traction via weight, I meant it created less by making more downforce on non-power bearing wheels. While it may contribute little to less traction in the front wheels, it still contributes, and I'm sure it helps drag cars maintain traction at higher speeds when they're putting out thousands of horsepower, but that's racing, not everyday driving. So what is there to say? I guess it's logical to say that if this is the reason why someone put a wing on their FWD car, then it's okay, but if they say they put it on to gain 50 HP, then we make fun of them.
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Old 01-12-2005, 02:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godlaus
This i can't really agree with. I thought there was to much drag involved with wings until about 60-70 mph? (not 150, like the myth says). Sure your analogy works, any your hand has to be 30-40 times larger, but it also has to weigh 6000 times as much. (estimating here).

Ahh, but think about this, a wing only weighs 10 lbbs or so, which ISN'T 6000 times as much. Seriously, try a small bit of plywood at that speed instead of your hand. Again, how the eff do you think planes FLY at such low speeds like that piper Cub I mentioned? It weigs more than yourahnd, too. The point is, wings work as soon as air is flowing over them.


Quote:
I never meant the wing created less traction via weight, I meant it created less by making more downforce on non-power bearing wheels. While it may contribute little to less traction in the front wheels, it still contributes,

No, it doesn't. Period. You have a mistaken notion in your head that you are seemingly unable to let go of. Read my post again. The front already generates negative lift. The rear generates positive lift. Adding a wing doesn't reduce teh negative lift at the front, but it removes the positive lift in the rear (and usually adds negative lift at the rear, thus balancing the front and rear grip). Which wheels are powered has, remember this, no bearing on it at all.

You're thinking of the example of a pickup truck puling a trailer with heavy tongue weight, pushing the rear down so low that the overall angle of the truck is nose-high (and if the tongue weight of the trailer is enough, the force on the hitch pushing downwards can lift the nose off the ground).

That example holds no bearing on a car with a wing.

Quote:
and I'm sure it helps drag cars maintain traction at higher speeds when they're putting out thousands of horsepower, but that's racing, not everyday driving.

Right, but if you'll notice, Touriung cars use wings and they aren't doing 300 mph or running 50000 hp. So why use them? So that in cornering, they stay glued to the road. And guess what? That happnes at speeds even normal street cars easily reach, and in fact do daily. Ever drive on a road race course? Even the higher speed corners at a track like Road Atlanta or Lime Rock, or even Laguna Seca, happen at speeds that regular street cars drive at on public roads (40-80 mph). If it works for race cars at those speeds, it works on cars that people are driving faster than the speed limit in on the street (and I'd bet that you do know that people drive faster than the speed limit in modded cars, right?)

Quote:
So what is there to say? I guess it's logical to say that if this is the reason why someone put a wing on their FWD car, then it's okay, but if they say they put it on to gain 50 HP, then we make fun of them.

Very true. Unfortunately, people make fun of them for putting them on the cars at all, without ever finding out if the person who OWNS the car thinks they add hp or not. And it doesn't matter what kind of car, people make fun of the wings even on actual f*cking race cars just because it's a "fad" to make fun of cars anymore. it's like a goddamn contest to see who can make fun of more cars and prove they know less about cars than the ricer they want to make fun of.
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Old 01-12-2005, 03:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar
Why do all you guys hate on "ricers?" So what if we have big wings on our cars and big mufflers, whats the big deal. The point is, our Civic's are faster than most cars and can smoke cars twice as expensive. My 1995 Honda Civic DX is quick as a whip and cheap too boot. All you guys in your fancy domestics and supra's are just a bunch of idiots. All I can say is, eat my Apexi dust....


The problem is underlined. Ricers are full of sh*t and so are you.
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