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Old 02-25-2005, 12:14 AM   #1
Blue_Frog
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Question Cooling System Questions:

Okay I have been through every component in solving my cooling system problems up to the water pump. It's a cheap fix but a pain in the ass to do(94 Ford Tempo 4cyl 2.3). I wanted some opinions on symptoms before I did:

1) Every other time I have diagnosed or replaced a water pump its been obvious that the pump was out and completely NOT working. The bearings were either shot and it squealed like hell or you could put your hands on the radiator intake / outake hoses and tell there was no flow.

A) I've got flow by touch from the intake hose. It starts slow and increases in pressure as the engine warms (no thermy...yanked it).

B) I flushed the system manually last weekend (no hose to t flush with) and the ratio of coolant / water got obviously weaker when I filled the radiator with it so clean water had to be coming from the block.

C) There is circulation that I can see from the radiator when the cap is removed but its not like what I would see in straight blocks that I am used to. It is more a glub-glub than a steady flow. Someone told me this is normal though in newer engines and front wheel drives as the radiator cap needs to be on for full pressure on the cooling system (?? ??).


2) The engine does not technically 'overheat' but it struggles once it gets hot. But it has an electric fan which I've never PERSONALLY had (on anything but a brand new vehicle that NEVER HAD probs) that seems to do a kick ass job and a 50/50 mix of 5w40 Lucas in the block that of course I have always found to be like engine magic.

3) I just took it for a good trip (bout 45 miles) today and it did die at idle like it over heated and when I did recrank it for the next round it sputtered like it was misfiring from a fouled plug (and I know that my oil mix has burned up lost viscosity way faster than it should have). It started pouring rain so I couldnt check the plugs but I could tell one was misfiring like it was fouled cuz it would stop doing it if I reved the piss outta it.

Okay I guess bottom line is: Can a water pump start to 'die' without being shot and cause problems like this? Like I said to me a bad water pump is the next logical step but its a pain in the ass to get to and every other time I've dealt with a bad water pump it has been way more obvious than this. If I pull the damn thing and it doesnt turn out to be the prob I'm gonna be on fire like way pissed.

Opinions anyone?

(Wiffout pissing contests please play nice ya smart car bastids ~ I said opinions)

THX!
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Last edited by Blue_Frog : 02-25-2005 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:04 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Frog
Okay I have been through every component in solving my cooling system problems up to the water pump. It's a cheap fix but a pain in the ass to do(94 Ford Tempo 4cyl 2.3). I wanted some opinions on symptoms before I did:

1) Every other time I have diagnosed or replaced a water pump its been obvious that the pump was out and completely NOT working. The bearings were either shot and it squealed like hell or you could put your hands on the radiator intake / outake hoses and tell there was no flow.

A) I've got flow by touch from the intake hose. It starts slow and increases in pressure as the engine warms (no thermy...yanked it).

B) I flushed the system manually last weekend (no hose to t flush with) and the ratio of coolant / water got obviously weaker when I filled the radiator with it so clean water had to be coming from the block.

C) There is circulation that I can see from the radiator when the cap is removed but its not like what I would see in straight blocks that I am used to. It is more a glub-glub than a steady flow. Someone told me this is normal though in newer engines and front wheel drives as the radiator cap needs to be on for full pressure on the cooling system (?? ??).


2) The engine does not technically 'overheat' but it struggles once it gets hot. But it has an electric fan which I've never PERSONALLY had (on anything but a brand new vehicle that NEVER HAD probs) that seems to do a kick ass job and a 50/50 mix of 5w40 Lucas in the block that of course I have always found to be like engine magic.

3) I just took it for a good trip (bout 45 miles) today and it did die at idle like it over heated and when I did recrank it for the next round it sputtered like it was misfiring from a fouled plug (and I know that my oil mix has burned up lost viscosity way faster than it should have). It started pouring rain so I couldnt check the plugs but I could tell one was misfiring like it was fouled cuz it would stop doing it if I reved the piss outta it.

Okay I guess bottom line is: Can a water pump start to 'die' without being shot and cause problems like this? Like I said to me a bad water pump is the next logical step but its a pain in the ass to get to and every other time I've dealt with a bad water pump it has been way more obvious than this. If I pull the damn thing and it doesnt turn out to be the prob I'm gonna be on fire like way pissed.

Opinions anyone?


(Wiffout pissing contests please play nice ya smart car bastids ~ I said opinions)

THX!
_______________

So you are saying the engine is overheating? I guess the normal drill of questions have to be asked:

Have you flushed the radiator?
Do you have any soft hoses that could be collapsing under suction pressure?
Does running the cabin heater reduce temps?
Is there a chance you have a cracked head and/or gasket?
Are you loosing water?
Is the thermostat opening fully (drop it in some near boiling water)?
Is your timing too advanced or fuel mixture a bit on the lean side?
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:44 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
So you are saying the engine is overheating? I guess the normal drill of questions have to be asked:

Have you flushed the radiator?

Yes..Wally you are dissapointing me I did that last weekend 'read' please.

Do you have any soft hoses that could be collapsing under suction pressure?
Does running the cabin heater reduce temps?

No I'm using feeling the intake on the radiator to 'assume' there is flow coming into the radiator. It starts loose then gets tight as the engine gets hot which makes me think that the pump 'is' working but I may be totally wrong or misinformed about how it should work (read my post).

Is there a chance you have a cracked head and/or gasket?
Are you loosing water?

No if the head gasket were cracked I know what I'd be seeing...first operating wise lotsa white steamy smoke coming from the exhaust...next white filmy bubbly stuff in my crankcase via the dipstick. I'm a really good shadetree type mechanic Wally. I know the mechanics of an engine. I guess I'm trying to eliminate the last 'mechanical' prob I can think of before I give it up to diagnostics cuz the water pump is the last mechanical prob it could be.

Is the thermostat opening fully (drop it in some near boiling water)?
Is your timing too advanced or fuel mixture a bit on the lean side?

Thermy got yanked first thing when I bought it...before I ever knew of any problems. I dont live in a freezin place so I think thermy's are just a stupid part to rust up and break down in the cooling system.

Not knocking you Wally and I trust your opinion...please re-evaluate what I've said n tell me what you think. I think I'm dealing with something that seems to be beyond the mechanical and into diagnostic but yet its so tempting to try that last thing. I dont want to waste my weekend and $30 replacing that pump and find out its some sort of sensor or relay I cant mechanically diagnose if it aint so.

Bottom line question I guess I could say is:

(Ignore my details)

Can a water pump 'start' to go bad and just under perform or something? That I guess is what I'm asking. All I have ever seen is water pumps bottom out.
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Last edited by Blue_Frog : 02-25-2005 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 02-25-2005, 02:13 AM   #4
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ive seen alot of chrysler waterpump problems where the impeler shears off the shaft, but will still spin sometimes and slip others causing alot of problems, if you do go into yours and pull it out, it might look ok but try to hold the pully and turn the impeller(sp?)
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Old 02-25-2005, 02:30 AM   #5
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Thanks Banff thats exactly what I was wonderin...can a water pump 'sorta' work. I've never seen nuffin but them totally be blown.
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Old 02-25-2005, 03:02 AM   #6
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Does your coolant temp gauge say that the coolant is over-heating? Though, even with a partially working pump it shouldn't over-heat without the thermo.

You should pop a thermostat in it, thermostats are there for a reason, they keep the engine warm, and increase fuel economy, also makes it easier to test things like this. Hose will be cold until the thermo breaks open, then when it does, you know your pump is good.

Is your waterpump making any-sort of grinding or other odd noise?

Did you bleed your cooling system after you flushed it?
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Old 02-25-2005, 03:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88GrandPrixSE
Does your coolant temp gauge say that the coolant is over-heating? Though, even with a partially working pump it shouldn't over-heat without the thermo.

You should pop a thermostat in it, thermostats are there for a reason, they keep the engine warm, and increase fuel economy, also makes it easier to test things like this. Hose will be cold until the thermo breaks open, then when it does, you know your pump is good.

Is your waterpump making any-sort of grinding or other odd noise?

Did you bleed your cooling system after you flushed it?

No the temp gague never goes hot but since it finally shut down on me today as IF it were overheating I totally dont trust it. C ---normal----H dont really tell you what your op temp is you know?

I bled it by intake / outake HOSES UNATTACH..crank fill...ATTACH..crank fill..UNATTACH...crank fill...(repeat)

Till it ran clean.

No the lack of or part of thermy aint the problem. I know what they are for but if you have an obscure cooling system prob they are the first thing in the way know what I mean?

And NO the water pump is not makin any noise...or grinding pulling or anything. Thats just the point...its the only problem I can see as the next step yet it SEEMS to be working fine. Like I said any other time I could point out a water pump as a problem it was obvious by noise or busting belts or something.

Can a water pump 'sorta' work as it is going out????
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Old 02-25-2005, 04:01 AM   #8
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sure it does, it should be in the cold-middle area usually, just as long as it doesn't get near the "H" you're good. Since you took out the thermostat it probably won't get very hot.

It won't be the water pump. Well, I shouldn't say won't, but, almost a 0% chance of it being that. Unless the pump is jammed on something and just won't turn at all, but if it's even turning a bit, it's enough when you don't have the thermo.

It's starting to sound like a computer problem to me...
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Old 02-25-2005, 06:09 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88GrandPrixSE
sure it does, it should be in the cold-middle area usually, just as long as it doesn't get near the "H" you're good. Since you took out the thermostat it probably won't get very hot.

It won't be the water pump. Well, I shouldn't say won't, but, almost a 0% chance of it being that. Unless the pump is jammed on something and just won't turn at all, but if it's even turning a bit, it's enough when you don't have the thermo.

It's starting to sound like a computer problem to me...

You scare me but you are prob right...something in the computer diagnostic system aint playing right. Oxy (SYN) (SYN) sor..or some kinda chit cuz I pulled the intake hose on the radiator even though I didnt have the $3 for a replacement clamp and cranked it. Aint the water pump...bitch pumped the radiator dry....

OH MY GOD I MAKE MY MONEY OF COMPUTERS.....

OH MY GOD I AM NOW THEIR WHORE....

Does anyone see where this goes????

Anyways yah thanks guys...it aint mechanical......
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Old 02-25-2005, 07:12 AM   #10
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haha, no prob. see if you can find a computer from an autowrecker, they go for like 15 bucks if you go to a decent wrecker, so even if it's not the computer, it's not a big loss.
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Old 02-25-2005, 07:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88GrandPrixSE
haha, no prob. see if you can find a computer from an autowrecker, they go for like 15 bucks if you go to a decent wrecker, so even if it's not the computer, it's not a big loss.

What you dont get..somethin on that computer is reading a temp over! Oxegen sensor looks good and is well lubed...all relays DONT look blown or act blown (elect fan~ect. Its bumfuggled...a car you can drive for 35-40 mph (a go kart)) then it goes nutz.....sit it in idle all night and you can still touch the block....its crazy I tell ya. Gotta give some 'hellyeahs' to them computer thinkers if they happen to figure it out. Tell ya in a few days.

-------------
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Old 02-25-2005, 05:10 PM   #12
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Question Using Windsheild Washer Fluid as Temporary Anti-Freeze

Hi all
I have a leak coming from the hose that connects to the bottem of the waterpump on my 1992 Chevy Caprice.

Currently I do not have the finances to take it to a repair shop...
I want to try and fix it myself, with the help of a few friends.

Because the leak is slow ( but steady) I have been using Wndshield Washer Fluid mixed with Water in place of Anti-freeze ( W.W.F is much cheaper as you know, and with the alcohol base my thinking was that it will keep my Block from freezing until I can get the proper repairs done)

Am I harming my Radiator and/or Cooling System by th doing this?

Thanks in advance
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Frog
What you dont get..somethin on that computer is reading a temp over! Oxegen sensor looks good and is well lubed...all relays DONT look blown or act blown (elect fan~ect. Its bumfuggled...a car you can drive for 35-40 mph (a go kart)) then it goes nutz.....sit it in idle all night and you can still touch the block....its crazy I tell ya. Gotta give some 'hellyeahs' to them computer thinkers if they happen to figure it out. Tell ya in a few days.

-------------

u stated "runs better after i reved the piss out of it". have u checked plugs and wires? it was raining when u reved it, could be ur wires. u can check em with an ohmeter, resistance should NOT be over 7500 ohms roughly. check that out. also, when was the last time fuel filter was replaced? and yes, put a thermostat in the biatch. a new one if ya can afford it.
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:13 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure Amature
Hi all
I have a leak coming from the hose that connects to the bottem of the waterpump on my 1992 Chevy Caprice.

Currently I do not have the finances to take it to a repair shop...
I want to try and fix it myself, with the help of a few friends.

Because the leak is slow ( but steady) I have been using Wndshield Washer Fluid mixed with Water in place of Anti-freeze ( W.W.F is much cheaper as you know, and with the alcohol base my thinking was that it will keep my Block from freezing until I can get the proper repairs done)

Am I harming my Radiator and/or Cooling System by th doing this?

Thanks in advance
Pure Amature


well, as far as i know, washer bubbles up unlike anti-freeze. so yes, i'd say there is a chnce u will damage something, i.e: over-flow container to ur rad. i don't recomend it, it's for cleaning, not cooling.
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:38 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure Amature
Hi all
I have a leak coming from the hose that connects to the bottem of the waterpump on my 1992 Chevy Caprice.

Currently I do not have the finances to take it to a repair shop...
I want to try and fix it myself, with the help of a few friends.

Because the leak is slow ( but steady) I have been using Wndshield Washer Fluid mixed with Water in place of Anti-freeze ( W.W.F is much cheaper as you know, and with the alcohol base my thinking was that it will keep my Block from freezing until I can get the proper repairs done)

Am I harming my Radiator and/or Cooling System by th doing this?

Thanks in advance
Pure Amature

Not the best of ideas, one of engine coolant's functions is to keep the block from rusting, iron block, iron is probably the most easily rusted metal out there, you're rusting the inside of your block, not a good idea. Coolant is also designed to take higher temperatures, which washer fluid is not, you're going to hurt something.

Just tighten up the hose clamp or cut a bit off the hose if it's cut then replace it.
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