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Old 09-10-2004, 11:58 PM   #61
Eclipse_2004
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
In case you need to be reminded, read my post to someone else in this thread. Abortion was never voted on in this country, it was shoved down our throat by a liberal Supreme Court. If all you liberals are truly interested in freedom of speech, why are you afraid to put it to vote? Because you'd lose and have to shut up about the subject. Elective abortion is wrong and should be illegal.

As for you ridiculous ideas about guns people are killed every day by knives, cars, tobacco products, alcohol, drugs and... abortions. Perhaps we should make them all illegal. I have been around guns all my life as has my wife. I am concealed carry qualified (a qualification I respectfully use) and my wife is a former championship winning skeet shooter. We have never killed anything except poor unsuspecting pieces of clay, empty soda cans and the occasional watermelon. Most guns in this country are owned and used by law abiding upstanding citizens. We don't need more restrictive gun laws in this country, we only need the ones already on the books enforced.

In closing, do yourself a favor and go read the Second Amendment. As a natural citizen of the great United States of America it is my right and duty to bear arms. See if you can find anything about abortions being a right anywhere in the Constitution.


I totally agree with Hobo, and expecially in Wisconin you cant ever get a liscense to carried a concealed weapon!! So you can go out on the street and be raped and be beaten, but if you would happen to have a gun, you flash that thing and the thug with his baseball bat will run away like a panzee.
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Old 09-11-2004, 12:18 AM   #62
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Old 09-13-2004, 06:04 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36
My decision to vote Kerry is based on logic. I just meant that I really hadn't supplied you with any thus far (you've been replying almost to another discussion entirely and trying to tie it back as the influencing factor for my vote). Personally, my highest priority would be jobs in this country. I would like to see a lot of improvement in that area and also for the new president to crack down on outsourcing. I imagine this would be right down there with abortion and gun control as far as you're concernd, but hey, there's a reason why everyone only gets one vote and we sure as hell are allowed to be a little selfish with it.

Actually, the job situation in this country is better than ever. Yes, we lost almost 300,000 jobs to outsourcing. At the same time, we've GAINED almost 9 million jobs from foreign companies setting up shop here or expanding, or from domestic expansion and new business startup. It isn't that we're losing jobs, but that the job market is changing. It does that quite often. You think the railroaders back in the day were upset that truckers arrived? You bet. But the number of JOBS increased, even if they were in a different segment. Again, an example of you not having enough data to make an informed opinion and ONLY listening to soundbites.



Quote:
I'm willing to take that chance. I want him out.

By the way, are you saying that changing GWB with Kerry would likely escalate poor situations, or are you making a general argument for Presidents staying longer in order to accomplish their goals, aka promises and soundbites? In case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm an "I'll believe it when I see it" type of gal Which again is why I want Bush out. Let's see if someone else can bring his soundbites to reality.

I'm saying that changing CinC in this situation would turn a situation that can be controlled into one that cannot. It puts in power someone who already indirectly caused the deaths of 80,000+ people due to ill-advised anti-war activism.

The problem with "believe it when they see it" types of votors is they don't bother LOOKING in any meaningful way beyond a few headlines and soundbites, and disregard any sort of proof that would show them that they SHOULD have seen it if they HAD looked. Things like your job loss info, how if you had looked at the BIG picture, you would have learned that the job market got better, not worse, overall.

Unlike the last Democratic administration, this administration did something when it was attacked. Afghnaistan, the stronghold of Al Qaeda, has been turned into a self governing NATO ally, with freedoms they never had before, and no place for the terrorists to go. Iraq is soon to follow. Due to swift retribution, other ME dictatorships have backed off their positions of belligerence (check out Libya's latest stance on the world is...).

I'd be willing to bet that most of your info has come from Michael Moore's film... (or from people who have seen it...)
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Old 09-14-2004, 04:59 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by ChrisV
Actually, the job situation in this country is better than ever. Yes, we lost almost 300,000 jobs to outsourcing. At the same time, we've GAINED almost 9 million jobs from foreign companies setting up shop here or expanding, or from domestic expansion and new business startup. It isn't that we're losing jobs, but that the job market is changing. It does that quite often. You think the railroaders back in the day were upset that truckers arrived? You bet. But the number of JOBS increased, even if they were in a different segment. Again, an example of you not having enough data to make an informed opinion and ONLY listening to soundbites.





I'm saying that changing CinC in this situation would turn a situation that can be controlled into one that cannot. It puts in power someone who already indirectly caused the deaths of 80,000+ people due to ill-advised anti-war activism.

The problem with "believe it when they see it" types of votors is they don't bother LOOKING in any meaningful way beyond a few headlines and soundbites, and disregard any sort of proof that would show them that they SHOULD have seen it if they HAD looked. Things like your job loss info, how if you had looked at the BIG picture, you would have learned that the job market got better, not worse, overall.

Unlike the last Democratic administration, this administration did something when it was attacked. Afghnaistan, the stronghold of Al Qaeda, has been turned into a self governing NATO ally, with freedoms they never had before, and no place for the terrorists to go. Iraq is soon to follow. Due to swift retribution, other ME dictatorships have backed off their positions of belligerence (check out Libya's latest stance on the world is...).

I'd be willing to bet that most of your info has come from Michael Moore's film... (or from people who have seen it...)

GOD LOVES CHRISV, I kinda like him too.
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Old 09-14-2004, 12:30 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ChrisV
Actually, the job situation in this country is better than ever. Yes, we lost almost 300,000 jobs to outsourcing. At the same time, we've GAINED almost 9 million jobs from foreign companies setting up shop here or expanding, or from domestic expansion and new business startup. It isn't that we're losing jobs, but that the job market is changing. It does that quite often. You think the railroaders back in the day were upset that truckers arrived? You bet. But the number of JOBS increased, even if they were in a different segment. Again, an example of you not having enough data to make an informed opinion and ONLY listening to soundbites.

What jobs are we talking about and where should I be looking? "I'll belive it when I see it" because I'm a college graduate who knows what me and my friends have gone through to find jobs, just how long it took, and how much settling and recycling the jobs among our little network has to be done. How many people who never planned on it have had to struggle to get into grad school. I'm asking because I really want information on all these fabulous new jobs we now have. Since rail-way jobs gave way to white-collar, are we now being sent back to the railway or what? What the hell is happening to jobs that used to be waiting for college grads, and what have they been replaced with?

Quote:
The problem with "believe it when they see it" types of votors is they don't bother LOOKING in any meaningful way beyond a few headlines and soundbites, and disregard any sort of proof that would show them that they SHOULD have seen it if they HAD looked. Things like your job loss info, how if you had looked at the BIG picture, you would have learned that the job market got better, not worse, overall.

Sorry but I'm looking into MY LIFE. And isn't that what the right of voting for your own President affords you -- the right to vote for who will make a better life for yourself, not necessarily the one ChrisV endorses. Your problem is that I've told you I'm not impressed with this administration, and you're feeling the need to tell me why I should be impressed over the last four years. How my observations are invalid because I didn't observe them through your eyes. Let it go, man. We are on opposite sides of a coin. Don't see things the same way, probably never will. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it. You're gonna have to relinquish control over this one.

Quote:
I'd be willing to bet that most of your info has come from Michael Moore's film... (or from people who have seen it...)

Hey, moron, while you're at it, why don't you tell me when was the last time I watched a movie that wasn't on network TV. Damn. Even the level-headed ones will surprise you on this forum

Last edited by JaneiR36 : 09-14-2004 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:56 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36
Sorry but I'm looking into MY LIFE. And isn't that what the right of voting for your own President affords you -- the right to vote for who will make a better life for yourself...

I was going to start this response with the words "Jane, you ignorant slut" but I figured the humor would be way over your head, so I omitted it.

Anyway, the above excerpt from your last post is precisely what is wrong with you, people like you and unfortunately the country in general. Get over yourself. Mature adults step back and look at the big picture. In this case what's best for the country overall. You by your own admission are only concerned with your own well being, and that is just a little bit selfish, don't ya think? I do.

Well I'd like to keep typing but I have to go do something... to help somebody else... with no payoff for me. You should try it sometime.
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Old 09-15-2004, 01:02 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
I was going to start this response with the words "Jane, you ignorant slut" but I figured the humor would be way over your head, so I omitted it.

How perfect!! Only the mature audience would understand.
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Old 09-15-2004, 10:56 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
You by your own admission are only concerned with your own well being, and that is just a little bit selfish, don't ya think? I do.

Is this supposed to be some kind of newsflash when I already said this a couple posts ago? Get over yourself, loser. If you'd focused on getting to know someone's viewpoint other than your own in this thread, you may have picked up on that when I posted it. Geez...

Quote:
Well I'd like to keep typing but I have to go do something... to help somebody else... with no payoff for me. You should try it sometime.

As usual. On your moral high-horse and on top of the world, insulting everyone who doesn't think the same as you or agree with you, and with your little lackies supporting your insolence. It's okay, dude. I, and several other people on this forum, as I've gathered, will never expect much more out of you " " You can't show respect for people without sacrificing your "payoff", ie, the orgasm you get from regurgitating your daily load of crap, anyway, so you're probably just a garden variety liar, too.

Now it's my turn to wonder if *this* is who will will be voting for our next President. Little boys who after just one week of conversation will throw sand in your face and run from the playground just because you were coming from different places, didn't arrive at the same conclusion, and stood your ground. Some of you desperately need a therapist. And you definitely need to get out more if a conversation that doesn't end with you nodding satisfactorily is this shocking to you.

Last edited by JaneiR36 : 09-15-2004 at 11:12 AM. Reason: Found out about old school SNL, but choosing to leave my now slightly inappropriate post the same
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Old 09-15-2004, 09:06 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneiR36
What jobs are we talking about and where should I be looking? "I'll belive it when I see it" because I'm a college graduate who knows what me and my friends have gone through to find jobs, just how long it took, and how much settling and recycling the jobs among our little network has to be done. How many people who never planned on it have had to struggle to get into grad school. I'm asking because I really want information on all these fabulous new jobs we now have. Since rail-way jobs gave way to white-collar, are we now being sent back to the railway or what? What the hell is happening to jobs that used to be waiting for college grads, and what have they been replaced with?

Look around. Your IT jobs are still there, just in different industries. Lot's available in the health care industry, for example. Service industries are getting larger, too. it's not all "going back to labor" though that's not necessarily a bad thing, except for candyasses who'd rather get paid a couple hundred grand a year to surf the web from a cushy IT job... Look at companies from outside the US setting up plants here or expanding on them (like Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW). there are tons more, but YOU have to get up off your ass and search. *I* have a job, found just that way. Should I try and find YOU one, too?



Quote:
Sorry but I'm looking into MY LIFE. And isn't that what the right of voting for your own President affords you -- the right to vote for who will make a better life for yourself, not necessarily the one ChrisV endorses.

Same whining that the railway workers you used as an example must have said about giving up their livelihood to do something else. Same kind of whining about "living the life we chose" that the loggers went on about in teh pacific northwest where I grew up. You can vote for whomever you want, but your selfish "me first" outlook has made you incapable of looking at the long term. Yo'd rather try to get back those IT jobs that went overseas even if it means that millions more here are removed from their new jobs because of the rules changes that the current economic policies created...


Quote:
Your problem is that I've told you I'm not impressed with this administration, and you're feeling the need to tell me why I should be impressed over the last four years.

*sigh* No, my problem is that you only speak in soundbites and bring up innaccuraciees as reasoning. it's the same thing I have a problem with when people here put down cars they've only heard about, or use outright untruths to put them down with.

There's nothing wrong with making a different choice. But there is something wrong with sticking to inaccurate data just so you can retain your original opinion. This holds true for everything in life, from choosing a president to determining what to have for dinner:

"I'd never have _____ for dinner because it turns your mouth green."

"No, it doesn't."

"You just don't like that I have a different opinion than you."

"sigh"



Quote:
Hey, moron, while you're at it, why don't you tell me when was the last time I watched a movie that wasn't on network TV. Damn. Even the level-headed ones will surprise you on this forum

Ohh, hit a nerve on that one, calling me a moron now. Must have got close, as you didn't bother to answer directly, on the grounds your mistaken facts might get called into question again. Typical.
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Old 09-16-2004, 12:01 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
I was going to start this response with the words "Jane, you ignorant slut" but I figured the humor would be way over your head, so I omitted it.


It would've been funny though...
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Old 09-16-2004, 01:40 AM   #71
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Ohh, hit a nerve on that one, calling me a moron now. Must have got close, as you didn't bother to answer directly, on the grounds your mistaken facts might get called into question again. Typical.

Oh, PLEASE! You said I got my info from Michael Moore's film which I interpreted to be a direct assault on my intelligence; you were indicating that I had no mind of my own to the extent of forming my own opinion. I responded to you with the same courtesy (and not even nearly the same level of insolence) that you did me so can we please stop whining and move on?

Quote:
Look around. Your IT jobs are still there, just in different industries. Lot's available in the health care industry, for example. Service industries are getting larger, too. it's not all "going back to labor" though that's not necessarily a bad thing, except for candyasses who'd rather get paid a couple hundred grand a year to surf the web from a cushy IT job... Look at companies from outside the US setting up plants here or expanding on them (like Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW). there are tons more, but YOU have to get up off your ass and search. *I* have a job, found just that way. Should I try and find YOU one, too?

Hey, if it's better than the one I have now, I just might take it Why the immediate assumption about IT? I'm going give you the benefit of the doubt and take it you meant that as an example. Although you have been exhibiting the general trend of *telling* me what situation I'm in, as against finding out what it is and going from there...

You made some very compelling arguments. So I did some quick online research to prove you wrong because I just *knew* you were wrong, and found this:

Ten Myths About Jobs and Outsourcing

Puzzled out of my mind that you could possibly be right and that the truth was 180 degrees out from what my experience tells me, I did another search. This time focusing on my field. Here's what I came up with:

IEEE-USA Position on Offshore Outsourcing

Some quick quotes:

(This one's for me): "The offshoring of high wage jobs from the United States to lower cost overseas locations is currently contributing to unprecedented levels of unemployment among American electrical, electronics and computer engineers."

(This one's for all the "prosperity of the nation" folk): "Offshoring also poses a very serious, long term challenge to the nation's leadership in technology and innovation, its economic prosperity, and its military and homeland security."

(And finally, this has definitely been my observation): "It is abundantly clear that many of the jobs being sent offshore were formerly held by U.S. engineers, computer scientists and other information technology professionals."

Take note that this is the IEEE, not just one person whining about their job or one single company. If these jobs were simply popping right back up within the industry, there wouldn't be an industry-wide situation.

Quote:
Same whining that the railway workers you used as an example must have said about giving up their livelihood to do something else.

Actually, you introduced the railway folk. I just used it as a background and stepping stone to ask questions in order to get to another point in the discussion. Maybe you're still scarred by your childhood, but that doesn't make me the people you grew up with. If you want to know what I think, you're just going to have to ask, rather than *tell* me what I think and then reply to it, which is pretty much what you've done at several points of this conversation.

Quote:
*sigh* No, my problem is that you only speak in soundbites and bring up innaccuraciees as reasoning. it's the same thing I have a problem with when people here put down cars they've only heard about, or use outright untruths to put them down with.

There's nothing wrong with making a different choice. But there is something wrong with sticking to inaccurate data just so you can retain your original opinion. This holds true for everything in life, from choosing a president to determining what to have for dinner:

"I'd never have _____ for dinner because it turns your mouth green."

"No, it doesn't."

"You just don't like that I have a different opinion than you."

"sigh"

YAY! It's game-time again! okay. How about:

"I'm gonna have Y dinner tonight because X tends to taste kind of blah."

"No, it doesn't turn your mouth green! You're ignorant! You're gonna run dinner time to hell!"

"Uh... I really don't think we've been having the same dinner, but if X works for you, that's fine."

"Well you're selfish, and I just *know* 300 million people are going to die tonight if you choose to eat Y."

Can we say hop, step, jump? What can I say, perception is reality

Finally, may I mention that I find your apparent disgust befuddling? Surely you know that there are MILLIONS of people who vote based only ONE issue. Coming to mind especially would be students who have no plans whatsoever on voting until they find out that one candidate seems to be leaning towards ensuring their tuition funding for the next four years, but the others, not so much. Wow. You must be hurling by now

Also, there seem to be a lot of scare tactics floating around on this topic, indicating that if you choose Kerry, America will collapse tomorrow. Even the VP as much as said that in his recent speech. Uh, no, I don't buy it for one second. And since either candidate would work for the Nation, I might as well get something out of it. Scare tactics and mud-slinging (regardless of whom it's directed at) are quite entertaining to watch, but definitely not a factor in deciding my vote.
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Old 09-16-2004, 03:56 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36
You made some very compelling arguments. So I did some quick online research to prove you wrong because I just *knew* you were wrong, and found this:

Ten Myths About Jobs and Outsourcing

Puzzled out of my mind that you could possibly be right and that the truth was 180 degrees out from what my experience tells me, I did another search. This time focusing on my field. Here's what I came up with:

IEEE-USA Position on Offshore Outsourcing

Some quick quotes:

(This one's for me): "The offshoring of high wage jobs from the United States to lower cost overseas locations is currently contributing to unprecedented levels of unemployment among American electrical, electronics and computer engineers."

(This one's for all the "prosperity of the nation" folk): "Offshoring also poses a very serious, long term challenge to the nation's leadership in technology and innovation, its economic prosperity, and its military and homeland security."

(And finally, this has definitely been my observation): "It is abundantly clear that many of the jobs being sent offshore were formerly held by U.S. engineers, computer scientists and other information technology professionals."

Take note that this is the IEEE, not just one person whining about their job or one single company. If these jobs were simply popping right back up within the industry, there wouldn't be an industry-wide situation.

Then why is the government is showing growth in the field of IT. But you probably wouldn't trust THEM, because they are the government. After reading the above post, I check out the website you provided as your edvidence. It is very compelling, but I am going to have to disagree with it. The reason is because I also did alittle "research" on the internet and found this site:

http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/e...look/brief.pdf

Just some quick numbers from it:

Electrical and electronics engineers,
288,000 jobs currently
11% increase
31,000 new jobs
An Average growth.
Employment growth will stem from
demand for advanced communications equipment and
consumer- and defense-related electronics products.
Growth is expected to be fastest in the services indus-tries,
especially consulting firms. Opportunities are ex-pected
to be favorable.

This is one of the examples you used. I edited the text because the way the copy and paste function worked it would have made no sense.

[\QUOTE]YAY! It's game-time again! okay. How about:

"I'm gonna have Y dinner tonight because X tends to taste kind of blah."

"No, it doesn't turn your mouth green! You're ignorant! You're gonna run dinner time to hell!"

"Uh... I really don't think we've been having the same dinner, but if X works for you, that's fine."

"Well you're selfish, and I just *know* 300 million people are going to die tonight if you choose to eat Y."[quote]

Now here is the best example I have seen of someone using someone elses examples out of context. Read over your words again and Read over ChisV's and compare them. You turned his words around and then morphed them into an attack.
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Old 09-17-2004, 07:08 PM   #73
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Then why is the government is showing growth in the field of IT. But you probably wouldn't trust THEM, because they are the government. After reading the above post, I check out the website you provided as your edvidence. It is very compelling, but I am going to have to disagree with it. The reason is because I also did alittle "research" on the internet and found this site:

http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/e...look/brief.pdf

Dude, why are you giving me *projections*? For the course of a whole decade (2000-10), almost half of which has already passed? What's wrong with good ol' fasioned reality? Trust me, I'm not obsessed with being right. Provide me with some real numbers and I'll be happy to reconsider my position. What you've given me isn't actual growth. Maybe you meant to quote another source of data? Also the site obviously tells nothing of the projected relative employment rate. It says number of jobs would increase, but tells you only a little about the number of new engineers being output from colleges (to the order of "they aren't expected to increase significantly"). So they will be increasing, too. Would that be at the same rate the jobs are increasing or...? I mean, this is just a projection, probably done with some fascinating tools, but I'd just as soon take reality any day of the week.

Quote:
Now here is the best example I have seen of someone using someone elses examples out of context. Read over your words again and Read over ChisV's and compare them. You turned his words around and then morphed them into an attack.

ChrisV was satirically recounting our exchange so far, from what I propose to be his perspective. I simply did the same. Hence perception being reality: his perception is his reality, and the same goes for me. I can pinpoint the exact parts of my summary in the thread, if you'd like. I made no claims that can't be located in this thread, and those were the parts that stood out to me.
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Old 09-18-2004, 04:34 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by importluva

After a disaster like that, can Mr. Bush be trusted with our economy, oil, jobs, healthcare, abortion rights, stem cell research (which i believe in strongly),and our credibility for another 4 years?
Hell no. vote for Jesse jackass, Al sharpless or MsMr Clinton, No wait vote for a war criminal that killed women and children(from his own words) What a crock of shit. All the ketchup in the world couldn't get that horse face Liar get elected. KERRY IS A POST TURTLE faff
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