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Old 11-13-2004, 03:38 PM   #16
DodgeRida67
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Originally Posted by KhanArtisT
Wow...I've been reading so many of the threads on this site, and it turns out that most of them usually get off subject and turn into useless arguments...


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Old 11-13-2004, 03:41 PM   #17
DaytonaTurbo
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The thing is, the intake and exhaust systems arent' designed that bad on newish cars. The factory designs them for good mileage and power, not like the old restrictive systems of the old classic cars. I would think that an entire intake and exhaust system on a newish car would be lucky to get you 15hp. I've got a Plymouth Satellite with a 440. When I bought it, it had the stock air cleaner, so I swapped it out for an open bowl unit, which has the ability to flow way more than any K&N style unit made for newer cars. I noticed no difference whatsoever, except that I could tell the engine was breathing easier at high rpm, like above 4 or 4.5k. Now that little of a difference is on a big block 440 that sucks in a ton of air and gas. A 440 is a 7.2L, way bigger than your engine, and the intake did not do very much, and that's replacing an old 70's intake. I don't think replacing your intake will do much at all if it didn't do much at all to my big block. Adding 5hp to a big block, you don't notice it. Adding 5hp to your car? You probably won't notice it. Upgrading the exhaust on my 440 from stock crappy 70s manifolds to headers really helped, but that's because a 440 puts out a ton of exhaust and the stock manifolds are poorly designed. Changing your whole exhaust system and throwing on a header would get you a maximum of 10hp, if you're lucky, IMO. And remember this about your air intake. When the engine is cold, the stock air intake will in the beginning suck air in past the exhaust manifold in order to draw heated air into the engine, and speed up the time it takes for the engine to warm up, if you throw on a custom system, you will no longer have that feature, and your car will take longer to warm up when it's cold outside. As far as mileage, expect to pick up a couple of mpg with the intake and exhaust system.
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Old 11-14-2004, 04:52 AM   #18
Sick88Tbird
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Originally Posted by DaytonaTurbo
The thing is, the intake and exhaust systems arent' designed that bad on newish cars. The factory designs them for good mileage and power, not like the old restrictive systems of the old classic cars. I would think that an entire intake and exhaust system on a newish car would be lucky to get you 15hp. I've got a Plymouth Satellite with a 440. When I bought it, it had the stock air cleaner, so I swapped it out for an open bowl unit, which has the ability to flow way more than any K&N style unit made for newer cars. I noticed no difference whatsoever, except that I could tell the engine was breathing easier at high rpm, like above 4 or 4.5k. Now that little of a difference is on a big block 440 that sucks in a ton of air and gas. A 440 is a 7.2L, way bigger than your engine, and the intake did not do very much, and that's replacing an old 70's intake. I don't think replacing your intake will do much at all if it didn't do much at all to my big block. Adding 5hp to a big block, you don't notice it. Adding 5hp to your car? You probably won't notice it. Upgrading the exhaust on my 440 from stock crappy 70s manifolds to headers really helped, but that's because a 440 puts out a ton of exhaust and the stock manifolds are poorly designed. Changing your whole exhaust system and throwing on a header would get you a maximum of 10hp, if you're lucky, IMO. And remember this about your air intake. When the engine is cold, the stock air intake will in the beginning suck air in past the exhaust manifold in order to draw heated air into the engine, and speed up the time it takes for the engine to warm up, if you throw on a custom system, you will no longer have that feature, and your car will take longer to warm up when it's cold outside. As far as mileage, expect to pick up a couple of mpg with the intake and exhaust system.

Ummm...no. "...the stock air intake will..." NOT "...suck air in past the exhaust manifold..." on that car, sorry you're incorrect. On older carb'ed or TBI cars, yes, but not in this case. On that little car 5hp will be quite noticeable. There are dyno proven exhaust systems available for that car that will add anywhere from 10-20hp depending on pipe size and brand, as well as whether or not you slap a header on that little pig. With a full exhaust and a CAI, I would tell you to expect at least 15 more hp to the wheels...at the bare minimum. As far as relating your '72 440 motor in that land yacht of a satelite to the ecotec in the little cavalier, sorry, fuel injection responds differently to mods than a carb'ed motor.

Imagine if your carb could re-jet itself over 50 times per second to suit every need and situation...that's what fuel injection is like. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock on your satelite because with the right work, that 440 will really rock and roll. Did you flow bench the open bowl style air clean you put on your car vs. a K&N cold-air intake for his cavalier, then calculate it against engine size and volumetric efficiency of the two engines...I didn't think so.
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Old 11-14-2004, 04:03 PM   #19
DaytonaTurbo
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Originally Posted by Sick88Tbird
Ummm...no. "...the stock air intake will..." NOT "...suck air in past the exhaust manifold..." on that car, sorry you're incorrect. On older carb'ed or TBI cars, yes, but not in this case. On that little car 5hp will be quite noticeable. There are dyno proven exhaust systems available for that car that will add anywhere from 10-20hp depending on pipe size and brand, as well as whether or not you slap a header on that little pig. With a full exhaust and a CAI, I would tell you to expect at least 15 more hp to the wheels...at the bare minimum. As far as relating your '72 440 motor in that land yacht of a satelite to the ecotec in the little cavalier, sorry, fuel injection responds differently to mods than a carb'ed motor.

Imagine if your carb could re-jet itself over 50 times per second to suit every need and situation...that's what fuel injection is like. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock on your satelite because with the right work, that 440 will really rock and roll. Did you flow bench the open bowl style air clean you put on your car vs. a K&N cold-air intake for his cavalier, then calculate it against engine size and volumetric efficiency of the two engines...I didn't think so.

I'm sorry about putting the part about sucking air in past the exhaust manifold. I was relating that because that's how it was in my daytona. And about feeling 5 hp, if you really want to believe that you can feel it, then you will. My friend did the air intake on his integra vtech, and trust me, in a drag, the extra 5 hp wasn't enough to make his car keep up with me. I just say 10hp for the exhaust system because depending on the car, many newish stock exhaust systems aren't designed that bad. But there's always room for improvement. It's just that I don't see exhaust boosting the power of a cavilier by 20% is all. Just don't go into this upgrade thinking that "I'm getting 10hp for this and 20hp for that, so I should have 160hp under the hood now". When doing this upgrade, aim for a reasonable power increase, say 15hp for the whole intake/exhaust thing, and if you get more, be happy, just don't be expecting an intake and exhaust to give an otherwise stock 4 banger 25 or 30hp. And as far as carb versus efi, I don't say that carb is better. EFI is better under daily regular driving and has good throttle response. But under wide open throttle, it's all about flow, CFM. If I throw a bigger cam into my motor, and want more flow, I just throw on a new carb and am good to go. What do you have to do to an efi motor? New injectors, electronics, ect. That's why muscle cars still rock. If I want more punch, I can just swap rear end gears, can you? Don't get me wrong, fuel injection is good, but on a stock motor, don't expect it to be all that. My daytona is fuel injected, but it's still slow. My mom's 04 corolla is fuel injected, and it's still slow, adjusting 50 times per second or not. And besides the lack of adjustability in an efi system, if something is wrong, an efi system will try to compensate and try to hide it. Volumetric efficency, power to weight, that all sounds like the BS the ricers like to use, when there are so many other factors than that.

What I'm trying to say to the origional starter of this thread is that you must expect realistic horsepower improvements from the upgrades you are talking about. You may notice 5hp on your car, and you could notice anothe 10-15hp on your car when driving it, but if you do just the intake, don't expect 15hp. And the full exhaust isn't going to be cheap. You'll want a decent size, mandrel bent, as for a header, I'm not too sure about that car. This will be faily pricey, because you've got to keep in mind that older cars had lots of room underneath to hang a 3" dual exhaust system, your car is lower and tighter underneath, so the price of a system will be according to that. When you do this, don't go thinking you can now go out and whip up on mustangs. Keep in mind that your engine wasn't designed for performance. It was designed for gas mileage and reliability. There are effective ways to get more hp out of a 4 cylinder. If you really want more power, look into what chrysler did to their 4 cylinders in the 80's, a little thing called turbocharging.
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