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Old 09-06-2004, 08:50 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
How sad for you little man, I bet you still get beat up in school too.

uuuuh no...i dont get beat up. never have been. why? because people dont really give a shit in my environment about if you "back things up with facts" or however you put it. and people also recognise that others have different opinons about things.
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Old 09-06-2004, 08:58 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by SuperJew
uuuuh no...i dont get beat up. never have been. why? because people dont really give a shit in my environment about if you "back things up with facts" or however you put it. and people also recognise that others have different opinons about things.
Right... So what's your opinion about the creep down the street raping your 11 year old sister. In his opinion it's okay and all his buddies think it's okay so we should all say okie dokie, right. I mean that's the crux of what you're saying here, isn't it?
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Old 09-06-2004, 09:34 PM   #33
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The bottem line on abortion is not taking responsiblity of your actions. Instead of taking responsibility, you get rid of the problem. Kill an innocent child. That is disgusting. It disgusts me and everyone else who has their head on straight.

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Originally Posted by SuperJew
and people also recognise that others have different opinons about things.

How many times do I have to tell you?

Repeat after me. It is not about who thinks what. It is about right and wrong. Say that over and over until you understand that.

Far to many people in this world don't know right from wrong anymore because idiots keep telling them what you think is all that matters. I hate to burst their bubbles (and yours) but it's not about what you or anyone else thinks. After all good and bad, stupid and smart opinions have been stated, you can flush them down the crapper because they are worthless. Only the truth and whats right is any good.
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Old 09-06-2004, 11:53 PM   #34
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Take this into consideration.

If and when you have a child (whoever believes in abortion) and you hold it in your arms for the first time think about this: There are millions of people in this world that would kill this baby for no good reason. And have NO problem with it. If you can still believe in your wrong ways after that, then I don't know what could change you.
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Old 09-07-2004, 01:08 AM   #35
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If I was old enough, I would vote for Kerry.


Fight Terrorism.
Defeat Bush.
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Old 09-07-2004, 01:58 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by abless
If I was old enough, I would vote for Kerry.


Fight Terrorism.
Defeat Bush.
I'm glad the election isn't a popularity contest for the intellectually challenged. And I'm glad you're not old enough to vote.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:06 AM   #37
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Last edited by importluva : 09-07-2004 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:06 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
Unf*ckingbelievable. First you type a ranting post like this;



Then you follow it up with this;




If the letters in bold font are true, and you have given me no reason to doubt they are, how are you even remotely qualified to make the first rambling statement? Did you see an interview with Michael Moore on TV which made you an expert? Perhaps you've been listening to Al Franken who is funnier as a commentator because of the stupid things he says than he ever was as a comedian. Or maybe you're just like most Democrats who don't have anything useful to bring to the table so they just bash anything Bush.

Let's look at your attempt to appear as though you know what you're talking about step by step.


I haven't seen, nor have you provided, any such documentation. However, let's assume you're correct. How does that differ from ANY young person with influential parents? How does that differ from using your own influence to get a doctor who never even saw you to sign paperwork stating that you were injured in the line of duty, twenty years after the fact, while you're in your forties (no longer a kid who doesn't know better). The Purple Hearts that John Kerry lied to get makes mine absolutely meaningless.



Just like a typical Democrat, and especially John Kerry, you say one thing then do another. "Focus on today", "propose for tomorrow", but we go right back to looking at the past. Wake the f*ck up. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you contradict (some would say flip flopping) yourself.



No we didn't, but Iraq did over and over and over. Check the U.N. records twinkie.



We had the same intelligence as, and even recieved some of ours from, the U.N., France and Germany. Was the intelligence wrong? Maybe, but it was the best available.



Really. Can you name them? Can you name one? That's what I thought.



That is your opinion that I don't think even the most liberal members of the Democratic party share. Pakistan, Kurdistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Kuwait, U.A.E., Eqypt. Shall I go on? Those are countries who are not only still our allies/friends but due to our (the USA) actions in the middle east have been emboldened to step up thier efforts to curb terror. Stick to the facts and you'll sound much smarter. Of course then you wouldn't have had anything to type.



You are entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong or misguided it may be.



The answer to all of those is YES. Let's pick two out of that buch real quick. Stem cell research, which you believe in strongly, you will no doubt say will help save lives. You may be correct on that point. But abortion rights is also on your list. Abortion, a pretty word for killing unborn babies. Do you see how f*cked up your priorities are? It's okay to kill a human being while they're inside their mother's belly but if they make it out let's see how long we can extend their life.

I just hope you're not old enough to vote.


I love all the assumptions you make in your post.

Anyways, Im sorry to say i don't have as much time as i used to give you an adequete reply. However, one useful fact did come out of this bit of arguing. As knowledgeable as you may be regarding cars, your choices in politics leave be flabbergasted.

As for my eligibility to vote, i am happy to tell you that i will be voting in November, provided i take the oath properly later this month.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:15 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by importluva
I love all the assumptions you make in your post.

Anyways, Im sorry to say i don't have as much time as i used to give you an adequete reply. However, one useful fact did come out of this bit of arguing. As knowledgeable as you may be regarding cars, your choices in politics leave be flabbergasted.

As for my eligibility to vote, i am happy to tell you that i will be voting in November, provided i take the oath properly later this month.
The only assumption I made was about your reasoning on stem cell research. Your excuse for not having enough time to reply that is once again a dodge tactic commonly used by people who are helplessly over their head. As for my choices in politics, at least I look at the facts before coming to any conclusions. Apparently that's something not taught in college anymore.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:36 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
The issue of abortion in this country was not decided by a democratic process. It was in fact decided by a body of 12 appointed judges (The Supreme Court) most of whom at that time were appointed by a liberal president and confirmed by a liberal legilative branch because they supported their liberal views. Sorry, but it's a fact.

That's rather side-stepping the issue: I still think this sort of issue should be decided by government, and I still support it, with restrictions and reservations. Besides, in the UK, this sort of issue IS decided by Parliament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
As for whether or not a child should be aborted because it may be stupid, well... There would be plenty of poster children for abortion on this forum.

That bit was tongue-in-cheek, I don't seriously propose killing gingers, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
Final question. If abortion is so important to all of you, why isn't abstinence, education and birth control on your list. I know, because once again it would require people to take responsibility for their own actions and a liberal could never have that.

This is a big assumption. This argument started about abortion, not abstinence, birth control or education. I am very much in favour of birth control and education. However, abstinence is unrealistic, and vaguely sinister. Telling the kids 'don't do drugs' doesn't work, so saying 'don't have sex' doesn't strike me as an option: it's preachy and avoids the problem.

It appears that it's so damned easy to get married in the USA, that the 'no sex before marriage' idea is a non-starter. Hell, when I was a teenager, I'd have had a christening, wedding, and sworn an oath to Thor to get laid. But it doesn't really work like that in the real world.

Teenagers have sex. The result of sex can be pregnancy. Pregnancy and disease can be avoided by the correct use of birth control. That doesn't strike me as a hard thing to educate people about.

Unless you're proposing to outlaw sex as an alternative measure, and simply jail the dirty little toe rags?

People do need to take responsibility for their actions, but at the same time, a government should be realistic in its approach to social problems, rather than getting on its fundamentalist Christian high-horse.
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Old 09-08-2004, 05:11 AM   #41
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Has anybody looked at the title of this thread or do they just blindly click their mouse. It's Bush Vs. Kerry not Pro-choice VS pro-life, or anything else.

So getting back on topic, I hate both of them. Both bush and kerry have lied about their past and done things any normal person with honor and morals wouldn't ever consider doing. I find it sick that because neither canidate has anything posotive to say about themselves they instantly resort to putting down their opponent. But we are in a time of need and we do need someone with backbone in office, and because a vote for nader(or any other party except Dem or Rep) is throwing away a vote. And because I know you can't complain if you don't vote, I would probably vote for Bush.

God, that was painful to type. I am a liberal, democrat, and young. Yet I would vote for bush.

But, we need someone with a spine and Kerry will just change his position at the whim of whoever he's nearest at the time. Since Bush sticks to something no matter how wrong or right he might be, he gets my vote.

By the way, how many people are actually voting for bush/kerry as opposed to voting against kerry/bush.
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:32 PM   #42
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all this reading is giving me a headache..

Listen you guys, you need to stop otherwise this thread is going to be locked. I can't beleive that you guys get so immature when it comes to the election. I mean my god. Just because someone wants/is going to vote for Bush and you don't doesn't mean their wrong nor does it mean you are. But seriously..stop the fighting and be civil and respect each others opinions. PLEASE!!
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Old 09-08-2004, 05:03 PM   #43
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Hmmm...

Bush never actually lied about his past. Kerry has (in fact, lied to a grand jury). Bush basically has always said he was a goof off, chasing skirt and getting drunk until meeting his wife and getting his sh!t together. His military record matches that description with one differnce, he actually did excell at what he joined up to do: fly fighter jets.

A number of peole say he got out of combat by using his influence to get a cushy national Guard position. In fact, official records show that the ANG unit he signed up for in texas was actually flying combat missions in Vietnam, under operation Palace Guard. GWB trained on F102s (which were so hard to fly that they killed 70 pilots, including a couple in GWB's unit). Yet Bush excelled at being a pilot, and actually requested Palace Guard duty, but didn't have the requisite hours of training in yet. When he got out in '72, his unit was being phased out of combat, and the war was winding down (remember, he served a few years AFTER Kerry's 4 month tour...).

Kerry came home from duty with a couple of trophy medals wheich he promptly denounced, called all fellow soldiaers war criminals, and becaem an activist against the war. Our pullout in Vietnam was in large part due to a few high profile protesters like Kerry, and our pullout was directly responsible for huge vietnamese massacres (Google "cambodian boat people")

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IF you really want to understand the true cost to the world for the victory of the North Vietnamese and the American war protestors like Hanoi Jane and John F. Kerry. IF you really want to see what they won and what humanity lost. Watch the movie The Killing Fields. And as you watch it keep telling yourself that you can't smell it (the death) and can't see the real blood and hear the real cries. Keep telling yourself that its only a movie. And keep telling yourself that Kerry is a hero. Keep telling yourself that 2 MILLION in Cambodia alone are only a set decoration in a movie.

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After years of activism against Vietnam, suddenly Kerry uses a 4 month tour, a few purple hearts (at least two of them given for injuries that didn't even require time off duty), and a fake set of honors to prove he's better suited to be CinC?

Kerry's campaign now says is possible first Purple Heart was awarded for unintentional self-inflicted wound... Kerry received Purple Heart for wounds suffered on 12/2/68... In Kerry's own journal written 9 days later, he writes he and his crew, quote, 'hadn't been shot at yet'

Kerry lied about Cambodia, and what he did and saw there. he lied baout the decorations he got for serving.

Quote:
The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon

B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations

But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."

Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Kerry says everything Bush has done is wrong, and he would have doen everything differntly. Yet he hasn't once said HOW he would have done things diffently (though using Clinton's inability to deal with Osama for the WTC bombings, the Cole attack, and the failure in Somalia, we get a good idea of how he would have done things differently...).

Belief that everything bad can be laid at the feet of a single administration over the last 3 years is ignorant beyond comprehension. To think that another administration will be the savior of us all is the flip side of that same ignorant coin.

I don't agree with the Republican stance on gay marriage or abortion, but their economic and military platforms are more important in the long run, and on that matter, GWB and his advisors tend to be more of what I'm looking for in teh way of leadership.
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Old 09-09-2004, 03:51 AM   #44
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Zell Miller is a life long Democrat. He is voting for and publicly endorsing president George W. Bush. What exactly is the point of your question or do you even have one?

It's awfully convenient for me to post this now, but I meant that the questions were quite similar, while assuming it was common knowledge that political conversations usually turn ugly among a diverse group of individuals But I see you all are having a blast, carry on

You know what, though? You're right. At first I thought you were just claiming Zell Miller because he's the public and national figure that epitomizes your point, but after a little bit of research I found out that as many as 10% of voters (if not more) actually vote across parties, not to mention the ~25% who have not declared affiliation with any of the two major parties.

My vote goes to Kerry. I may not be able to write a dissertation on the subject, but it's been four years and I'm not particularly impressed, so Bush needs to get the **** out. Unfortunately, going by poll results, that most likely will not be happening.
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Old 09-09-2004, 03:52 AM   #45
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It's awfully convenient for me to post this now, but I meant that the questions were quite similar, while assuming it was common knowledge that political conversations usually turn ugly among a diverse group of individuals But I see you all are having a blast, carry on

You know what, though? You're right. At first I thought you were just claiming Zell Miller because he's the public and national figure that epitomizes your point, but after a little bit of research I found out that as many as 10% of voters (if not more) actually vote across parties, not to mention the ~25% who have not declared affiliation with any of the two major parties.

My vote goes to Kerry. I may not be able to write a dissertation on the subject, but it's been four years and I'm not particularly impressed, so Bush needs to get the **** out. Unfortunately, going by poll results, that most likely will not be happening.
Lucky for us!
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