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Old 09-09-2004, 04:07 AM   #46
JaneiR36
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Originally Posted by DodgeRida67
What you two are saying is "The matter to murder an unborn baby or not is to be left up to peoples opinions."

Cool! I LOVE this game! Here, try this one: "Women should be used as full-term incubation machines whether they like it or not."

Nooo, I don't feel that strongly about abortion rights. I just feel that re-wording the subject matter to illustrate your own sentiment is pretty damn worthless as an argument.

To me, an abortion is like gun ownership. Totally disgusting and immoral until you need one... And no, I haven't had either.

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Old 09-09-2004, 04:23 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36
Cool! I LOVE this game! Here, try this one: "Women should be used as full-term incubation machines whether they like it or not."
Whether they like it or not. Other than rape or incest (see my post above) those poor women made a choice to have sex. By making that choice they and the father have also taken the responsibility for the outcome. If they don't like it they should have given some thought to the potential consequences BEFORE taking of their pants.

While we're on the subject why should a woman have the "right" to have an abortion if the father doesn't want her to. On the other hand if a woman has a baby and the father doesn't want anything to do with it he is legally responsible, at least for child support. Or is this just another case where women are more equal than men. Yeah, that's it.


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Originally Posted by JaneiR36
Nooo, I don't feel that strongly about abortion rights. I just feel that re-wording the subject matter to illustrate your own sentiments is pretty damn worthless as an argument.
Like this little gem below, right?


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Originally Posted by JaneiR36
To me, an abortion is like gun ownership. Totally disgusting and immoral until you need one... And no, I haven't had either.
Those are the two most ludicrous sentences in this entire thread. Legal gun ownership is all about resposibility. Abortion in most cases is all about lack of responsibility, let's just kill a baby.

Just as a side note, maybe you should re-think your support of Kerry. He claims to be more pro-gun than Bush (at least this week) and just accepted one in West Virginia this weekend.
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Old 09-09-2004, 04:41 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
Whether they like it or not. Other than rape or incest (see my post above) those poor women made a choice to have sex. By making that choice they and the father have also taken the responsibility for the outcome. If they don't like it they should have given some thought to the potential consequences BEFORE taking of their pants.

While we're on the subject why should a woman have the "right" to have an abortion if the father doesn't want her to. On the other hand if a woman has a baby and the father doesn't want anything to do with it he is legally responsible, at least for child support. Or is this just another case where women are more equal than men. Yeah, that's it.

Hey, if people weren't too busy saying a resounding "NO" to abortion, maybe they'd get with the program and work out the details...

Quote:
Those are the two most ludicrous sentences in this entire thread. Legal gun ownership is all about resposibility.

Responsibility for WHAT, exactly?!?! In either case, the end result is the termination of "life". And if abortion is murder, why are you so much more comfortable with the tools of the trade? And as for "target shooting," I'm pretty sure if people tried hard enough, they'd find another hobby that's just as entertaining!

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Abortion in most cases is all about lack of responsibility, let's just kill a baby.

I'm sorry, I forgot that guns are for resurrecting people from the dead.

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Just as a side note, maybe you should re-think your support of Kerry. He claims to be more pro-gun than Bush (at least this week) and just accepted one in West Virginia this weekend.

I wouldn't own a gun. Kerry can do whatever-the-hell he wants. Remember how I said I didn't feel strongly about abortion rights? And then how I feel similarly about gun ownership to the way I feel about abortion rights? Yeah, that means I really don't care. However, you seem to feel the comparison of abortion to gun control is idiotic. I don't.
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Old 09-09-2004, 11:26 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36
Hey, if people weren't too busy saying a resounding "NO" to abortion, maybe they'd get with the program and work out the details...

Responsibility for WHAT, exactly?!?! In either case, the end result is the termination of "life". And if abortion is murder, why are you so much more comfortable with the tools of the trade? And as for "target shooting," I'm pretty sure if people tried hard enough, they'd find another hobby that's just as entertaining!

I'm sorry, I forgot that guns are for resurrecting people from the dead.

I wouldn't own a gun. Kerry can do whatever-the-hell he wants. Remember how I said I didn't feel strongly about abortion rights? And then how I feel similarly about gun ownership to the way I feel about abortion rights? Yeah, that means I really don't care. However, you seem to feel the comparison of abortion to gun control is idiotic. I don't.
In case you need to be reminded, read my post to someone else in this thread. Abortion was never voted on in this country, it was shoved down our throat by a liberal Supreme Court. If all you liberals are truly interested in freedom of speech, why are you afraid to put it to vote? Because you'd lose and have to shut up about the subject. Elective abortion is wrong and should be illegal.

As for you ridiculous ideas about guns people are killed every day by knives, cars, tobacco products, alcohol, drugs and... abortions. Perhaps we should make them all illegal. I have been around guns all my life as has my wife. I am concealed carry qualified (a qualification I respectfully use) and my wife is a former championship winning skeet shooter. We have never killed anything except poor unsuspecting pieces of clay, empty soda cans and the occasional watermelon. Most guns in this country are owned and used by law abiding upstanding citizens. We don't need more restrictive gun laws in this country, we only need the ones already on the books enforced.

In closing, do yourself a favor and go read the Second Amendment. As a natural citizen of the great United States of America it is my right and duty to bear arms. See if you can find anything about abortions being a right anywhere in the Constitution.
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Old 09-09-2004, 12:48 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36
My vote goes to Kerry. I may not be able to write a dissertation on the subject, but it's been four years and I'm not particularly impressed, so Bush needs to get the **** out.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll...um...repeat myself...

Belief that everything bad can be laid at the feet of a single administration over the last 3 years is ignorant beyond comprehension. To think that another administration will be the savior of us all is the flip side of that same ignorant coin.
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Old 09-09-2004, 01:50 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
We have never killed anything except poor unsuspecting pieces of clay, empty soda cans and the occasional watermelon. Most guns in this country are owned and used by law abiding upstanding citizens. We don't need more restrictive gun laws in this country, we only need the ones already on the books enforced.

I'm not particularly needing them to be outlawed, either. But because you people who think guns are toys exist, they continue to be manufactured for use by killers. If you'd just find another hobby then maybe we can focus on the bad guys who use guns to summarily terminate life. Sounds a little idealist to you? Yeah, so does your "abortion is wrong" whining to me.

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In closing, do yourself a favor and go read the Second Amendment. As a natural citizen of the great United States of America it is my right and duty to bear arms. See if you can find anything about abortions being a right anywhere in the Constitution.

Why would it? Most of the Constitution, not to mention court laws were written for "The Reasonable man," something women continue to find out when they get screwed over in court and are puzzled because they were law abiding citizens with apparently no laws to protect them in their situation, yet the same laws provide ample protection to their male counterparts. And besides, if just because it's on the books, it's a right, what are you still whining about? Shouldn't you just blindly accept the new right to abortion, then? You're gonna have to choose one topic. Either law, or opinion

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Originally Posted by ChrisV
Belief that everything bad can be laid at the feet of a single administration over the last 3 years is ignorant beyond comprehension. To think that another administration will be the savior of us all is the flip side of that same ignorant coin.

Well you sure have an active imagination where all that ignorant thinking keeps coming up. Either that, or you're rather insecure in your position, seeing as I never said anything about "everything bad" being blamed on this administration. I just feel we've given one person a chance, now we should give another. If that doesn't work for you, that's fine. You have your vote, and I have mine. DUH.
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Old 09-09-2004, 04:06 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JaneiR36
Well you sure have an active imagination where all that ignorant thinking keeps coming up. Either that, or you're rather insecure in your position, seeing as I never said anything about "everything bad" being blamed on this administration. I just feel we've given one person a chance, now we should give another. If that doesn't work for you, that's fine. You have your vote, and I have mine. DUH.


Your logic shows you haven't thought through the situation. You think that this administration caused all sorts of problems, when in fact it didn't. And in fact, many of the current problems can be laid at the feet of teh previous administratin, who were wishy washy about international affairs, and allowed the WTC bombings and Cole attack to go unanswered, and caused the issue in Somalia to turn out the way it did. We could have avoided quite a bit of mess by taking care of that business at the time, but the Dems didn't have the guts to see it through.

Now, you feel that a whim is good enough to remove a wartime CinC and replace him with someone who can't form a coherent position ON the war, and who was parially responsible for our failure to see Vietnam through (thereby indirectly causing the Cambodian massacre).

Opinions are based on what you research, and if you fail to research then your opinion is based on flawed data at best. Right now gun laws and abortion laws are of lesser importance than getting the situation in Iraq squared away properly. And I have zero confidence in John Kerry, who has so far lied about his war record, actively campaigned against the US when coming back from teh war, failed to appear for 90% of the senate votes over the last 20 years of being in the senate, and missed over 75% of the committee meetings when he was part of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Sorry, a guy who missed 75-90% of his job over 20 years no wants a promotion? Would you let that happen at work????

Bush's overall record as governor and before isn't the best, but it's still better than anyone the Dems are willing to put in his place. And better than anyone in independant parties right now.
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Old 09-10-2004, 12:02 AM   #53
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Guns don't kill people. The people that use guns to kill people kill people. People kill people. Sorry if that's confusing.


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Originally Posted by vwhobo
As a natural citizen of the great United States of America it is my right and duty to bear arms.






Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneiR36
But because you people who think guns are toys exist, they continue to be manufactured for use by killers.

That's right. Guns are manufactured for the soul purpose to be put in the hands of killers.

My closet is proud to be an ammo dump and my south-west bedroom corner is proud to be a gun rack. Take the guns away from the people that will use them illegally, not me and others that use them in accordance to the laws. Taking away your protection is very stupid. If you had an intruder come into your home with a knive with the intent to kill you and your family, I'm damn sure you'd wish you would have some type of protection. Preferably a gun.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
Belief that everything bad can be laid at the feet of a single administration over the last 3 years is ignorant beyond comprehension. To think that another administration will be the savior of us all is the flip side of that same ignorant coin.

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Old 09-10-2004, 12:24 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
In closing, do yourself a favor and go read the Second Amendment. As a natural citizen of the great United States of America it is my right and duty to bear arms. See if you can find anything about abortions being a right anywhere in the Constitution.

, Here, Here.

My vote would have to go to Bush, but if McCain was running I would vote for in a heartbeat. That is the white conservative(sp.?) "redneck" in me. There are plenty of gun laws and restrictions on the books already. We don't need any more. Just for your information I have never owned a gun, because of the restriction on gun buying that you need to be 18 of older to buy a gun without parent sign. though I do hunt. I hunt and fish and I eat everything kill minus the bugs and spiders.
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Old 09-10-2004, 03:28 AM   #55
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Responsibility for WHAT, exactly?!?! In either case, the end result is the termination of "life". And if abortion is murder, why are you so much more comfortable with the tools of the trade? And as for "target shooting," I'm pretty sure if people tried hard enough, they'd find another hobby that's just as entertaining!

I'd like to know how a gun. Period.... is the termination of life. The tools of the trade? Name the last abortion that was performed by anyone "qualified" in which case they busted a cap into a woman's abdomen?
And as far as a habit of target shooting. Do tell- what is that hurting? Oh, and PLEASE tell me that the watermelon has feelings. I'm sure it does. And I'm sure you'd say that innocent animals don't deserve to be killed. Granted, I'm not a fan of those who hunt because they desire to feel death in their hands because they desire the power to kill, but anyone who eats what they hunt- more power to them. Oh, and PLEASE tell me that you shouldn't eat them. Do tell- if God didn't intend for us to eat them, why the hell would he have made animals out of something not only edible, but nutritious? And I'm sure if that weren't the way it were supposed to be, then the Bible wouldn't have used animals as sacrifices for God. I'm sure they could have found something much cleaner, you know. If they tried hard enough!

And about anyone who owns a gun. As VWHobo said, our Second Amendment gives Americans the right to not only own, but use firearms. And as was stated before, guns don't all end up in the hands of murderers. Those are the only guns you hear about. Why do you think guns have such a bad rep? Because they only make headlines when someone wakes up dead.

And about abortion. Yes. Abortion is the termination of "life". And I'd certainly like to see you refute the conservatives here when we say that if you can't keep it in your pants, then be prepared to support a child (with the exception of incest and rape.). People are just looking for another loophole through which they can shirk responsibility and engage in idiotic, neglegant acts only to provide them with some sort of pleasure in their largely miserable existences. So please. Unless you have valid points, shut up. I'm sure if you tried hard enough, you could find another hobby other than being a blind-eyed liberal, that's just as entertaining!
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Old 09-10-2004, 03:57 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by DodgeRida67
Guns don't kill people. The people that use guns to kill people kill people. People kill people. Sorry if that's confusing.

Using a gun. Like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I told ya already, I DO like your games

Quote:
Take the guns away from the people that will use them illegally, not me and others that use them in accordance to the laws. Taking away your protection is very stupid. If you had an intruder come into your home with a knive with the intent to kill you and your family, I'm damn sure you'd wish you would have some type of protection. Preferably a gun.

Since we're being quite frank in our discussion, I'd have to say you're a complete idiot if you don't realize I've already expressed these sentiments. ie guns are completely disgusting until I need one. Since you're all about explaining what's confusing, that could be, you know, if I had a dangerous stalker and was authorized to shoot him, or if I had reason to believe an intruder could come into my home. That sorta stuff. We done playing games now? " "

But then again, since you're so clear on the aspect of gun ownership, how about the woman who is relieved as hell that she doesn't have to carry a foetus to term? The foetus that could threaten her health; her life. The one whose quality of life would make everyone around it (including the baby-to-be itself) wish it were never born. The ones created by rape and incest (but since you're focusing on the baby being an innocent life that's getting terminated, even babies created by such means didn't ask to be born, so who are you to decide that this baby should die and not the others?)

The comparison I'm trying to express to you guys (and hopefully we won't get sidetracked this time), is that just as gun ownership would be a relief to the person looking to protect his life and property, so is abortion to the woman looking to remove a foetus for one "legitimate" (as described above) reason or the other. At the same time, there are the people who would use guns just for "fun" (stupid hobby, IMO), for killing, maiming and murdering, and there are the people who would use abortion for family planning or cover-ups for their own irresponsiblity. Now this is the way I see it, and you don't by any means have to agree, however a few of you have found the need to tell me that I'm wrong or that I'm stupid, just because my opinion differs from yours. Hence this pointless conversation continues in its vicious cycle. Enjoy
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Old 09-10-2004, 04:27 AM   #57
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ChrisV, there's no logic to follow. In only one or two sentences I stated why I would be voting for Kerry. Abortion or gun control has nothing to do with it. You seem to have some pretty good reasons for liking Bush, though. I still don't.

Patrick, you seem confused. I'm not (and no where have I told you that I'm) a tree hugger or a vegetarian. So you can step off your soap box 'cos there's no need to give me a history or taste lesson on the deliciousness of animals.

Again, the people who use guns as toys, and even for defense create a demand for guns. NO DOUBT a portion of these manufactured machines will end up in the hands of people who will use them ONLY for illegal purposes. IDEALISTICALLY, if we were to eliminate the supply to people who use guns as toys because they magically developed other hobbies, we wouldn't have to supply the guns, and therefore X% of ZERO guns being manufactured would still equal ZERO guns ending up with murderers. You following me so far? However, this is idealistic, naiive, and will never happen. And that's why TO ME, it compares to the total outlawing of abortion.

"Blind-eyed liberal?" Patrick, now listen to me carefully. Finish eating up your nutritious goats and deer, get your 'A' in English comprehension, then why don't you come back and try to label me
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Old 09-10-2004, 06:59 PM   #58
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ChrisV, there's no logic to follow. In only one or two sentences I stated why I would be voting for Kerry.

There's no logic to follow? You SHOULD use logic in a decision this large. And it should be clear, not just "well, I think it's time for a change." Apparently there's a REASON for you to feel it's time for a change, and THAT"S the logic I'm following. If you can't see the reason that making a change now is bad, then you haven't done your research, and your opinion is based on faulty data.

Quote:
Again, the people who use guns as toys, and even for defense create a demand for guns. NO DOUBT a portion of these manufactured machines will end up in the hands of people who will use them ONLY for illegal purposes. IDEALISTICALLY, if we were to eliminate the supply to people who use guns as toys because they magically developed other hobbies, we wouldn't have to supply the guns, and therefore X% of ZERO guns being manufactured would still equal ZERO guns ending up with murderers.

This is an example of faulty data. As it woudn't eliminate the realities of people who want to kill other people (which, if you hadn't noticed, is already against the law), thus not eliminate the demand OR access to weapons to do that. More laws won't stop people who already aren't following the laws already on the books OR being deterred by the harsh punishment for disobeying said laws.

The problem is not in the tool/object or its availability to law abiding citizens, but in the issues that cause people to use them illegally, which are much more varied and complex, so no one wants to (or can) address them. The simple scapegoat is much more appealing, and easier to rally around.

Much like the way people treat GWB. It's easy to rally around a visible scapegoat for everything that is wrong with your life or this country. But he's not the cause of the problems facing you, and changing him out with someone else won't FIX those problems, and will likely (from prior record) add more to the mix.
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Old 09-10-2004, 08:28 PM   #59
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First I woulkd just like to say thank you to VWHOBO, Chris, and JaneiR36 for providing me with some quality reading. You all seem to support your arguements well and it appears to me that you believe in what you are posting. It is nice to see the varitey I have by just going through this post and reading everyones.

As for my opinion, I guess I won't bother wasting anyones time with what I think. "Opinions are like a**holes, everyones got one and they all stink" Just kidding, but I just think that the variety of opinions out there is one of the terrific things about this country. That is what makes us Americans. Other countries do not have that freedom like we Americans seem to take for granted. Yes I know that the other the other 176 or so other countries out there are not authoritarian states, but if you do not like how the Sultan of Brunei is running the country you really do not get much of a chioce like you do here in America.

Anyways I have written more than I intended on here. I do not think that either canidate is perfect, but who really is?

Kerry, I can not trust, Bush so far has delayed research on Stem cells. The Ex-National Institutes of Health, Harold Varmus said it best I believe,
Quote:
"There is almost no realm of medicine that might not be touched by this innovation."

Being a Biologist I would love to see what miraculious(sp?) things could be achieved in the future, but also being a catholic I have a hard time with the issue.


Anyways I will get off my soapbox and just say that if you do not wish to vote for either canidate this year, vote Rev. Al Sharpton for Pres.
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Old 09-10-2004, 11:29 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by ChrisV
There's no logic to follow? You SHOULD use logic in a decision this large.

My decision to vote Kerry is based on logic. I just meant that I really hadn't supplied you with any thus far (you've been replying almost to another discussion entirely and trying to tie it back as the influencing factor for my vote). Personally, my highest priority would be jobs in this country. I would like to see a lot of improvement in that area and also for the new president to crack down on outsourcing. I imagine this would be right down there with abortion and gun control as far as you're concernd, but hey, there's a reason why everyone only gets one vote and we sure as hell are allowed to be a little selfish with it.

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This is an example of faulty data. As it woudn't eliminate the realities of people who want to kill other people (which, if you hadn't noticed, is already against the law), thus not eliminate the demand OR access to weapons to do that. More laws won't stop people who already aren't following the laws already on the books OR being deterred by the harsh punishment for disobeying said laws.

Same argument can be made for abortion (admittedly to a lesser extent). How else would you explain people getting the procedure done, anyway, in countries where it is not yet a legal right? And since we're sticking to bad guys, I mean the REAL bad girls. The ones who wait for seven months before they finally realize he's not going to leave his wife and raise that kid with them before choosing to have an abortion. Hence the similarity still holds.

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Much like the way people treat GWB. It's easy to rally around a visible scapegoat for everything that is wrong with your life or this country. But he's not the cause of the problems facing you, and changing him out with someone else won't FIX those problems, and will likely (from prior record) add more to the mix.

I'm willing to take that chance. I want him out.

By the way, are you saying that changing GWB with Kerry would likely escalate poor situations, or are you making a general argument for Presidents staying longer in order to accomplish their goals, aka promises and soundbites? In case you haven't figured it out yet, I'm an "I'll believe it when I see it" type of gal Which again is why I want Bush out. Let's see if someone else can bring his soundbites to reality.
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