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Civic Si Sedan 6 46.15%
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Old 10-20-2007, 08:34 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by dodgerforlife
Okay, more ignorant blather. HP per Litre means shit obviously. So what if a Honda can crank out a 102hp/litre ratio? Does that make it any better then a v8 cranking out 340hp? Hell no! And you do realize that those tiny little tin can engines need to run those ridiculously high RPM's to attain that kind of power, and that they don't really get into their power band until they're way up in the RPM's? A V8 can create low-rpm torque and horsepower, and a hell of a lot more of it then your little engines. It's really quite funny that an engine that's twice the size of your little engine, with lower hp/litre ratios, will still walk all over you.

As for stock performance, just because domestic manufacturer's had the insight to install FACTORY Turbo's, technically making them stock. You contradict yourself. First you say "Stock Performance", then you go on to say you're talking about "Naturally Aspirated". You chump. If you want "Stock Performance", include FACTORY-TUNED cars. Hell, back in the early 90's, dodge was using a 2.2 DOHC turbo that created 224hp - that's right, 102hp/litre STOCK. Don't give me shit about being N/A. It also didn't need to spool to 9000RPM to see those numbers either. Those numbers were being cranked at 6000RPM. How about we come a little more modern? Seems there was a 2.4L SRT-4 engine, which put down 245hp, which is again 102hp/L. Hell, the '08 Caliber SRT-4 will be throwing 285hp from the 2.4L world engine. That's almost 120hp/L.


Furthermore, you complained about the reliability. However, you must realize that there is right now, a 3:1 ratio of american vehicles on the road as compared to imports. Granted, the trend is changing, but american vehicles are still the most popular here. That OBVIOUSLY means there is going to be more complaints about them! There's no way you're going to get around that.
N/A or turbo I dont care, im talking about stock for stock. With the srt4 putting down that power there is MAJOR torquesteer through gears 1 and 2, and i expect the same from the caliber...but hey we are american we only want to brag about how powerful our cars are, we will never really utilize any of that power but just trot along on the highway doing 55 so everyone passing us can see how nice a car we have. **** that philosophy. on the other hand i drove the 2.2 liter turbo shadow you speak of an I thought it was a great car. The fact of the matter is, there are very few manufacturers out there now that can match the quality of import cars, thats why as you said the trend of american cars is slowly changing, and GM workers are losing their jobs because the big guys cant compete.

and back to what you first said, yes an f-body will walk an s2k, simply because it has more cylinders. when i say engineering, i mean the ability to make power from such a small displacement. yes it takes tuning to make a turbo engine last and perform, but its a LOT easier to make power from a factory turbo car than N/A. Take for example. Bugeye WRX 2.2 liter H4 turbo 227 horsepower (or 222 not sure), s2000 2 liter N/A 240 horsepower. Both are great cars, but simply comparing engineering ability, the s2k is my vote, especially since the bugeye WRX has a glass transmission and very fragile drivetrain in general.
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Old 10-20-2007, 11:29 PM   #92
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Listen New York weve had the HP per liter discussion and it ricer math nand pretty much ****ing useless. It doesnt get you shit and doesnt win races. All you can use it for is your ****ing ricer excuses.

And s2000s arent that bad ass. Actually go drive one HARD and quit being a nut swinger. They are underpowered and I think they handle sloppily, like most stock cars.

And S2000s are very unreliable.
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Old 10-20-2007, 11:32 PM   #93
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Didnt you **** up your honda tranny with just 115 hp. There is reliablity for you, haha.

Stock F-body T56s can handle upwards of 600hp if taken care of.
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Old 10-21-2007, 06:30 AM   #94
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Didnt you **** up your honda tranny with just 115 hp. There is reliablity for you, haha.

Stock F-body T56s can handle upwards of 600hp if taken care of.
Thats because I was chirping from 1st to 2nd on a routine basis and doing rough shifts
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Old 10-21-2007, 06:32 AM   #95
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Listen New York weve had the HP per liter discussion and it ricer math nand pretty much ****ing useless. It doesnt get you shit and doesnt win races. All you can use it for is your ****ing ricer excuses.

And s2000s arent that bad ass. Actually go drive one HARD and quit being a nut swinger. They are underpowered and I think they handle sloppily, like most stock cars.

And S2000s are very unreliable.
No horsepower per liter is a good way to see who engineers their cars better...its a lot harder to crank out 120 than 59

I HAVE driven one hard. My brother has an AP2 red and its an amazing car. Nothing underpowered or sloppy about it from what I recall, and I drove the thing for about 6 hours, HARD

LOL ok dude the one thing I dont like is they need valve adjustments every 30k miles IIRC...everything else is stellar
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Old 10-21-2007, 10:23 AM   #96
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No horsepower per liter is a good way to see who engineers their cars better...its a lot harder to crank out 120 than 59

First of all they are doing 107hp/liter currently, 120hp/liter WAS NOT RELIABLE WHICH CAUSED THE SHIFT TO THE F22C.

Secondly, there are stock OHV engines popping out 70+hp/liter... and? They are doing it with OHV... Think about the huge limitation that places on the maximum potential breathability. It is done so that the engine can remain light, have a low CG, and be small amongst other things. Hence why a Ford 302 can turn out plenty of power in a tiny, very light package.

No, it really isn't. You can get a 60's Ford small block to over 100hp/liter easily. No one really does it though since it is pointless. You kill your low end torque, lower engine life, drivability, and hurt performance compared to simply adding displacement. BMW was turning out 1200hp out of 1.4L turbo motors. They said it was like an on/off switch and was pointless except it was the only way to compete based off of the old racing regulations (I believe it was some form of F1).

Think about this one... its the year 2007, Honda has an S2000, a sports car with 237hp!

Now this one... its the year 1987, Ford has a Mustang, a sports 2+2 with 225hp!

20 years of engineering, and? And nothing. The Fox weighs within 100lbs of the S2000 and it has two extra seats.

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Originally Posted by newyorker
Thats because I was chirping from 1st to 2nd on a routine basis and doing rough shifts

You have FWD wheel slip and 115hp??? And you broke a trans? What a joke. That is hardly shock loading. How about my roomates 300zx, 200ftlbs, slams the gear EVERYTIME we go out, slams the launch. What about my 4250lb Explorer with 225ftlbs slamming? And your trans bit it off 115hp and probably less torque? Be real, you think anything that engine is going to put through FWD compares to the kind of beating a RWD, heavy, powerful car will do? They manage to do just fine...


Lastly, and this is the important bit. If you compare a dyno of a high displacement low HP/liter engine vs. a low displacement high HP/liter engine you will be surprised. Turns out the high displacement motor being less strung up has a wider powerband... more area under the curve. Much more. A measured 14% more comparing a Ford 302 to an S2000 motor from 3000-5000 on the 302 and 5280-8800 for the F20C. Thats not even including the normal street powerband, that is merely all out performance driving. The S2000 will suffer considerably more the rest of the powerband. Also notice that the S2000 makes only 198hp on the chassis dyno but the 302 pulls 202hp despite the fact that the S2000 was rated for 240hp, and the 302 for a mere 225hp. Drivetrain loss figures in as well, drag increases with the square of speed. Thus high RPM motors suffer from much more power loss than a low RPM motor. Which is why the S2000 gets poor times for its power to weight ratio compared to other competitors.

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Old 10-21-2007, 04:51 PM   #97
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Alright, please answer me this: What benefit does a 2.X liter engine making 240hp have over a 5.7 liter engine making 340hp? I don't see any, seeing has the 5.7 engine weighs almost the same. So why would they waste money to engineer it? They are different car companies that make things differently, HP/Liter doesn't make a car better engineered unless perhaps Honda came out with a 5.7 liter that still had the 120hp/liter and still was able to keep the costs low and reliability high.

The S2000 pulls about the same (sometimes less depending on the sources) on the skidpad as the F-body. Let me spell that out for you: your tiny import roadster DOESN'T outhandle the 3500+lb V8 American musclecar that even has a backseat. I think that shows some shitty engineering, perhaps they shouldn't have been so worried about hp/liter.
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Old 10-21-2007, 05:18 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by newyorker
N/A or turbo I dont care, im talking about stock for stock. With the srt4 putting down that power there is MAJOR torquesteer through gears 1 and 2, and i expect the same from the caliber...


I wonder WHY there's torquesteer......Oh yeah! It ACTUALLY produces torque! A hell of a lot more torque then the s2000, to be exact. So of course when your sitting on about 250ft-lbs of torque, you can expect it. And for shits and giggles, imagine driving a bobtailing semi, with over 1400ft-lb torque. Now that is some serious torque to hold down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorker
but hey we are american we only want to brag about how powerful our cars are, we will never really utilize any of that power but just trot along on the highway doing 55 so everyone passing us can see how nice a car we have. **** that philosophy.

Isn't that the same bullshit you're pulling right now? "OMGWTFROFLOLCOPTER my import does 102hp/L, your American car doesn't!" And it also sounds like you're advocating driving like a retard. If the speed limit is 55, drive 55. You need to be driving several hours to make speeding worthwhile, anything an hour and under doesn't make it worth it. I'm sorry if most people understand that, and the concept seems a little to difficult for you to grasp.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorker
on the other hand i drove the 2.2 liter turbo shadow you speak of an I thought it was a great car. The fact of the matter is, there are very few manufacturers out there now that can match the quality of import cars, thats why as you said the trend of american cars is slowly changing, and GM workers are losing their jobs because the big guys cant compete.

Like I said previously, there's a 3:1 ratio of Domestics to Imports on the road in North America, so that means if the quality is the same, you'll still have 3x as many complaints, and unfortunately the media only concetrates on the number of complaints, not on the number of vehicles on the road. I'll even give a nod to Ford on this one, look at the F-series pickup trucks, they've been around since 1948. How the hell is that not longevity?! Oh, and don't forget, the F-Series has been the top-selling vehicle in the USA for over two decades. In 2006, THREE GMC vehicles were on the top 10 sales list, GMC is cutting so many jobs is because of several reasons. Firstly, the plants don't need as many people to run them anymore, with so much robotic manufacturing done. Secondly, the union is keeping wages way up there, and that's a huge money pit for any manufacturer. Thirdly, they lost a pissload of money in R&D over the last couple of years. Give them a few more years to finish reshaping things, and they'll be rock-solid again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorker
and back to what you first said, yes an f-body will walk an s2k, simply because it has more cylinders. when i say engineering, i mean the ability to make power from such a small displacement. yes it takes tuning to make a turbo engine last and perform, but its a LOT easier to make power from a factory turbo car than N/A. Take for example. Bugeye WRX 2.2 liter H4 turbo 227 horsepower (or 222 not sure), s2000 2 liter N/A 240 horsepower. Both are great cars, but simply comparing engineering ability, the s2k is my vote, especially since the bugeye WRX has a glass transmission and very fragile drivetrain in general.

Again, that's ignorance speaking. Just because it can produce those numbers, at very high RPM's, does not make it any more 'advanced' in regards to engineering. I bet you if other manufacturers were building engines to spool up to that RPM, you'd be seeing just as high, if not higher numbers. And how about you compare the SRT-4 to the S2K? The SRT-4 definitely has a drivetrain built to withstand the power, and abuse that some drivers put them through. Hell, guys running 550+whp on the SRT-4 are still using stock transmissions and they still hold up.
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Old 10-21-2007, 05:51 PM   #99
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The s2000 is a better piece of engineering than the mustang nad a better car overall than the new mustang as well. it uses better technology, and corners better than a 3000+ pound american piece of crap with no new technological development whatsoever except the guage cluster having 100+ backlight colors. **** the mustang, and all american cars for that matter with the exception of the vette, viper, and...well thats it. I dread driving them, and at work I already know what car is going to have what problem becase its all too common between them all.
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Old 10-21-2007, 06:59 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by newyorker
The s2000 is a better piece of engineering than the mustang nad a better car overall than the new mustang as well. it uses better technology, and corners better than a 3000+ pound american piece of crap with no new technological development whatsoever except the guage cluster having 100+ backlight colors. **** the mustang, and all american cars for that matter with the exception of the vette, viper, and...well thats it. I dread driving them, and at work I already know what car is going to have what problem becase its all too common between them all.


What makes them technologically superior? VTEC is in use on domestics, just under a different acronym. DOHC and 4 valves per cylinder have been in use since the '30s. And isn't it funny how your Honda engine doesn't even grace the Ward's Top 10 Engines list...yet 4 domestic engines are on it.

Even funnier, Honda hasn't really come up with anything new...ever. 9/10 new developments in vehicles are either European, or Domestic.

Just give it up. Ignorance really must be bliss.
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Old 10-21-2007, 08:40 PM   #101
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What makes them technologically superior? VTEC is in use on domestics, just under a different acronym. DOHC and 4 valves per cylinder have been in use since the '30s. And isn't it funny how your Honda engine doesn't even grace the Ward's Top 10 Engines list...yet 4 domestic engines are on it.

Even funnier, Honda hasn't really come up with anything new...ever. 9/10 new developments in vehicles are either European, or Domestic.

Just give it up. Ignorance really must be bliss.
VTEC is all honda, all I see now are copies used by different manufacturers. Lets not forget what cars last, and which ones dont. Sure older domestics were indestructable, hell my pontiac went 152k before I crashed it and im sure it would still be running strong today with 200k+, but the new stuff they make is just blah. I like a few domestic cars, but thats all. I would take a range rover sport over an escalade, a passat 2.0t over an accord, and a fod gt over most any ferrari just for the price difference, and the car wouldnt see enough miles to actually get to the point where it breaks, but for sheer engineering, american cars do nothing for me
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Old 10-21-2007, 08:49 PM   #102
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The s2000 is a better piece of engineering than the mustang nad a better car overall than the new mustang as well. it uses better technology, and corners better than a 3000+ pound american piece of crap with no new technological development whatsoever except the guage cluster having 100+ backlight colors. **** the mustang, and all american cars for that matter with the exception of the vette, viper, and...well thats it. I dread driving them, and at work I already know what car is going to have what problem becase its all too common between them all.

How is it better?

The Mustang is faster, cheaper, has more seating...

What technological developement is so great in the S2000 compared to the Mustang?

Sorry you dread driving them, do you think someone who drives a Mustang GT wouldn't dread driving a Honda Civic? Same goes for drivers or Supras, 300zx's, Camaros, etc. Not even that guy from the fast and the furious probably enjoys driving a Civic, LOL. We already know your logic is off, no point in telling us you dread driving american cars, we get that, we're all just trying to find out why.

Is it because you can FEEL it has less hp/liter and that makes you upset?
Is it because you can FEEL the torque as you rocket through the ENTIRE powerband?
Is it because you have a Honda and feel that should allow you to be stuck up and to smell your own farts?
Is it because you are just disagreeable and don't want to face the facts?

or Is is because you are just plain intolerable of a different way of achieving similar or better performance? Must really bother you how much better a performer for less money cars like the 350z are, yet it only makes 85hp/liter with DOHC. Is it Honda or die?

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Old 10-21-2007, 08:50 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by newyorker
VTEC is all honda, all I see now are copies used by different manufacturers. Lets not forget what cars last, and which ones dont. Sure older domestics were indestructable, hell my pontiac went 152k before I crashed it and im sure it would still be running strong today with 200k+, but the new stuff they make is just blah. I like a few domestic cars, but thats all. I would take a range rover sport over an escalade, a passat 2.0t over an accord, and a fod gt over most any ferrari just for the price difference, and the car wouldnt see enough miles to actually get to the point where it breaks, but for sheer engineering, american cars do nothing for me
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Old 10-21-2007, 09:21 PM   #104
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How is it better?

The Mustang is faster, cheaper, has more seating...

What technological developement is so great in the S2000 compared to the Mustang?

Sorry you dread driving them, do you think someone who drives a Mustang GT wouldn't dread driving a Honda Civic? Same goes for drivers or Supras, 300zx's, Camaros, etc. Not even that guy from the fast and the furious probably enjoys driving a Civic, LOL. We already know your logic is off, no point in telling us you dread driving american cars, we get that, we're all just trying to find out why.

Is it because you can FEEL it has less hp/liter and that makes you upset?
Is it because you can FEEL the torque as you rocket through the ENTIRE powerband?
Is it because you have a Honda and feel that should allow you to be stuck up and to smell your own farts?
Is it because you are just disagreeable and don't want to face the facts?

or Is is because you are just plain intolerable of a different way of achieving similar or better performance? Must really bother you how much better a performer for less money cars like the 350z are, yet it only makes 85hp/liter with DOHC. Is it Honda or die?
No its because to me, american cars have a lower (much) quality feel than their import and european rivals, thats all. If im going to go out and spend 60k on a brand new SUV, Il pay the 60k for a range rover that has every feature to match the escalade and then some, still does 0-60 in 7 and 15.4 in the 1/4, still luxurious, but doenst feel like a plastic wedge when you are driving it. To me its worth the price difference to have a quality car, not just any ol SUV. Same goes for cars. Would I take a passat or a malibu? Any day of the week, for the same exact reasons. Thats just my take. If im going to be spending money on a new car (and this isnt what i call pocket change), I want to get something that I will enjoy, and something that will serve me well, rather than something I dont like.
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Old 10-21-2007, 11:07 PM   #105
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VTEC is all honda, all I see now are copies used by different manufacturers. Lets not forget what cars last, and which ones dont. Sure older domestics were indestructable, hell my pontiac went 152k before I crashed it and im sure it would still be running strong today with 200k+, but the new stuff they make is just blah. I like a few domestic cars, but thats all. I would take a range rover sport over an escalade, a passat 2.0t over an accord, and a fod gt over most any ferrari just for the price difference, and the car wouldnt see enough miles to actually get to the point where it breaks, but for sheer engineering, american cars do nothing for me

Haha you ignorant piece of shit, I do believe buick was the first to use variable valve timing. I think it was in 53 and it was for economy.
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