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Old 03-16-2005, 08:18 PM   #16
shulle3
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I think this thread would benefit if chrisv the vwhobo and I were the only ones who were allowed to post after the initial question was asked. Everyone else seems to spew the bullshit the heard was true from their inbred grandpa dad.
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shulle3
I think this thread would benefit if chrisv the vwhobo and I were the only ones who were allowed to post after the initial question was asked. Everyone else seems to spew the bullshit the heard was true from their inbred grandpa dad.

and....what makes you more qualified than anybody else?

Quote:
Well if someone had the same drivetrain and tranny in a 1000hp engine and 200hp engine then u'd never know which one would lose more power cause something would snap each and every time on that 1ghp beast. U couldn't test it.

VMJyogi, I like how you think outside the box, but now it's not really necessary, try to answer the question only in the context it was asked.

Quote:
A rear wheel drive car loses more power than an automatic because the long driveshaft is heavier and requires more force to turn.

I'll presume you mean a FWD car, but I'm sure you lose more power, but you get more traction, and arguable better handling from a RWD car. But the parasitic power loss is sometimes less on a RWD car also.

Quote:
or if its an automatic which generally loses 5% of power to the transmission to avoid the car dying when stopped

I going to presume you mean the 5% slippage thats present in the torque converter. Now, to my knowledge, I believe that a transmission fluid runs through the torque converter as the RPMs raise, correct, so you shouldn't have that 5% slippage when you're accelerating. Am I right?


A question to anybody who can answer it;

A honda civic puts out somehting like 100 ft-lbs of torque. is it possible for to take something like a 5 ft long wrench, attach it to the wheel of a civic, and stop the wheels from spinning using my own two hands and a wrench?
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Old 03-16-2005, 08:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godlaus
VMJyogi, I like how you think outside the box, but now it's not really necessary, try to answer the question only in the context it was asked.
okay thanks for being cool about it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Godlaus
I'll presume you mean a FWD car
Yes, i did mean FWD. You know how sometimes you think faster than you speak and end up running words together? Thats what i did typing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godlaus
I going to presume you mean the 5% slippage thats present in the torque converter. Now, to my knowledge, I believe that a transmission fluid runs through the torque converter as the RPMs raise, correct, so you shouldn't have that 5% slippage when you're accelerating. Am I right?
Yes you are most likely right. I never knew exactly where or how the 5% slippage came to be but now i am well informed!

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Originally Posted by VWHOBO
Just as a side note, what exactly does it mean to be the "Self-appointed anchorman of CF"? Is it just in your nature to type moronic things?

Yes, it is in my nature to type stupid things. Hey it's funny cause the movie was funny and i felt like doing it.

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Originally Posted by VWHOBO
While we're at it, what is there to be proud of being a dependent of the USMC? Are you unable to to stand on your own merits?
Well since i'm not rude. I'll simply state that DEP stands for Delayed Entry Program which means that i have enlisted for the Marine Corps and have not yet entered because i must first graduate high-school hence the term delayed entry.

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Are you really that inane or are you just pretending to be an idiot? You sir are proof that stupid people shouldn't breed.
Yes i really am that uninformed (not stupid). But it is my charisma not my knowledge of cars or ability to yell at others that charms women. So unfortunately i will breed if that is god's intentions.

I wish for the day when i could learn from someone as intelligent as VWHOBO, not get bashed by him...Thank You Godlaus for teaching me about the torque converter.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:02 PM   #19
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Thank You Godlaus for teaching me about the torque converter.

My info is right about 40% of the time. You're better off learning from somebody else. Don't take my word as God's.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godlaus

A question to anybody who can answer it;

A honda civic puts out somehting like 100 ft-lbs of torque. is it possible for to take something like a 5 ft long wrench, attach it to the wheel of a civic, and stop the wheels from spinning using my own two hands and a wrench?

With a 3.5:1 first gear ratio and a 4.30:1 final drive ratio, that 100 lb ft of torque becomes 1500+ lb ft at the hubs. No, I doubt you could stop it.

OTOH, if you put the car in 5th gear and let out the clutch, the resistance of the car just sitting there is enough to stall the engine.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
With a 3.5:1 first gear ratio and a 4.30:1 final drive ratio, that 100 lb ft of torque becomes 1500+ lb ft at the hubs. No, I doubt you could stop it.


apparently, you underestimated Godlaus' power. I can easily hold up 300 pounds!!!!! lol, jk, I can barely pick up my dog, and she's only 3 months old.

But, if the wrench was attached to the crank, then I could stop the crank from spinning, correct?
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:32 PM   #22
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Its funny but why are you so interested? I could actually see somebody sitting there with a vice-grip clamped to the crank saying 'i'm ready, start the engine'. I'd be worried that the guy would break his arm but it'd still be funny to watch. Now i'm wondering if you could do it too.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by VMJYogi
Its funny but why are you so interested? I could actually see somebody sitting there with a vice-grip clamped to the crank saying 'i'm ready, start the engine'. I'd be worried that the guy would break his arm but it'd still be funny to watch. Now i'm wondering if you could do it too.

just curious, that and bragging rights that i could hold back a honda civic.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:37 PM   #24
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Ok, so I have a question.

What relation does the cars weight have with HP and Torque? Obviously less weight the fast you can go. But is there a point when weight dosnt matter?

Example, my Fiero weighs roughly 2300 pounds, the 89 GTA that the engine came out of weighs roughly 3,500 lbs. What effect does this weight difference have on the HP and Torque?
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godlaus

I going to presume you mean the 5% slippage thats present in the torque converter. Now, to my knowledge, I believe that a transmission fluid runs through the torque converter as the RPMs raise, correct, so you shouldn't have that 5% slippage when you're accelerating. Am I right?

The torque converter always has fluid in it, that's how it works. There is an impeller portion that is physically welded to the torque converter housing (which is bolted to the flexplate, which looks like a thin flywheel, and is bolted to the crank, this the impeller is directly driven by the crank).



That impeller pushes the fluid against a turbine that is connected to the input shaft of the transmission itself. At idle, the fact that the timpeller and turbine are connected only by fluid allows the turbine to sit still while the engine is spinning. As the rpm's rise, the force of the spinning fluid forces the turbine to match speed with the impeller causing the car to move, like when you slip the clutch to take off from a stop in a manual. Above a certain rpm, teh turbine "stalls" in relation to the impeeller (that is, it moves the same speed). In modern transmissions, the parts physically lock together for zero slippage (like having the clutch engaged on a manual trans).



Inbetween is a thing called a stator.

"The stator works between the impeller and turbine to magnify the torque as the vehicle accelerates. At low speeds, the stator remains stationary against the flow of transmission fluid. It works to redirect the fluid flow from the turbine to boost impeller action and multiply the engine torque. As the speed increases, the stator starts to rotate in the same direction as the impeller and turbine. As it does, the torque multiplication stops."

But there's more going on in an automatic that causes slippage. Unlike manual tramsnissions, the gears inside an automatic a planetery gearsets, not hypoid (look it up). The changing of gears is accomplished by changing teh fluid pressure through a valve body, controlled by a combination of vacuum and rpm in older transmissions, or the computer and throttle position in newer ones. There are also clutch packs inside the transmission, and bands that tighten on teh differnt gearsets to lock them in place. If the bands slip, or teh valves are tuned too soft, you end up with smooth, but sloppy shifts that rob power due to excess slipping between gears and while IN gear. High performance bands and clutchpacks help, as does a shift kit (which changes spring pressures and fluid pressurs in different areas of the valve body, which reduces teh time the shift takes, and increases band pressure for reduced or eliminated slippage giving more performance).


So yes, in stock and luxury automatic transmissions, thre is more overall loss of power. But that can be fixed to the point where there is actually less overall loss of power through the transmission.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFieroKid
Ok, so I have a question.

What relation does the cars weight have with HP and Torque? Obviously less weight the fast you can go. But is there a point when weight dosnt matter?

Example, my Fiero weighs roughly 2300 pounds, the 89 GTA that the engine came out of weighs roughly 3,500 lbs. What effect does this weight difference have on the HP and Torque?

The weight doesn't change the engine's torque and horsepower. But the weight DOES have an effect on how much work the engine can do. And there's really no point where weight doesn't matter unless there is't any weight TO matter.

The difference you see is simply how many lbs each hp has to move. If you had an engine with 200 hp, in the GTA each hp had to move 17.5 lbs. That same engine in the Fiero would only have to move 11.5 lbs. To put this in perspective, you could lift a 100 lb box of magazines. But it would be hard. If that box only weighed 10 lbs, it would be easy to move and you'd be less liekly to hurt yourself, even though you haven't changed how strong you are.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ChrisV
The weight doesn't change the engine's torque and horsepower. But the weight DOES have an effect on how much work the engine can do. And there's really no point where weight doesn't matter unless there is't any weight TO matter.

The difference you see is simply how many lbs each hp has to move. If you had an engine with 200 hp, in the GTA each hp had to move 17.5 lbs. That same engine in the Fiero would only have to move 11.5 lbs. To put this in perspective, you could lift a 100 lb box of magazines. But it would be hard. If that box only weighed 10 lbs, it would be easy to move and you'd be less liekly to hurt yourself, even though you haven't changed how strong you are.

Got it.. so me lifting the 10 lbs boxes, in relation to someone who is built just like me, would have to lift more weight to accomplish the same task. Inheritably I would finish first with less body ach then the guy struggling with the 100lbs box.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godlaus
apparently, you underestimated Godlaus' power. I can easily hold up 300 pounds!!!!! lol, jk, I can barely pick up my dog, and she's only 3 months old.

But, if the wrench was attached to the crank, then I could stop the crank from spinning, correct?

Well, first you have to realize that the engine has to be running first in order to stop it, and at idle, that crank is spining at around 1000 rpm. Try putting a wrench ON it.. But at idle, that engine might only be putting out 20-30 lb ft of torque.

Basically what you're asking is if you put a clutch on the back of the engine and applied pressure by hand to a running engine with a long enough handle, could you stall it. And that answer is yes, that's how an engine dyno works, in general (only an angine dyno applies a brake to measure force, not to stall the engine).
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:52 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by TheFieroKid
Got it.. so me lifting the 10 lbs boxes, in relation to someone who is built just like me, would have to lift more weight to accomplish the same task. Inheritably I would finish first with less body ach then the guy struggling with the 100lbs box.

Exactly.

Now, just to muddy up the waters, you can increase the torque:weight ratio of a car by gearing, without changing the car's weight OR the engine's output. But the only way to change the hp:weight ratio is by reducing weight or increasing the engine's power output.
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mumin
I know this is one of those questions that I can search online but I think I learn better when someone tellsm me stuff:P I wanted to know what is they difference between horse power and torque. What if there is more torque than horse power..if possible..and other way?

Forget all the tripe. Fuel is rated in joules and the when burnt at a rate of one joule per second releases a watt of power. How that power is applied whether it be for cooking steaks or to make a wheel turn is a product of that power.

Without power torque cannot exist, but power can exist without torque.

You cannot have more or less torque than power simply because they are different measurement, like oranges and lemons although they may share common elements. Just because someone decided to scale a graph to conveniently correlate with a 5252 derived constant does not mean one is greater than the other. The Torque (ft-lbs) = HP x 5252/rpm equation can be rearranged whichever way you like. If you use the same nonsense internet mechanics do by rearranging the the equation to prove hp is dependent on torque, you could equally argue power is dependent on rpm, which we all know is not true.

A convenient way for power to be measured is via a chassis dynamometer. One of the methods of measuring on the chassis dyno is tractive effort. From this you can apply gear ratios and wheel diameter data and find either a torque figure or a power figure or both at your leasure. Some people find it easier to find torque and then from that find power, but that is only stepping the maths.

For the relationship between acceleration and torque = simple school physics "torque and angular acceleration".
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