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Old 08-26-2004, 12:54 PM   #31
DSMer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heebee
I drive a Mazda diesel that's slightly larger than the Toyota Prius. I get 50+ miles to the gallon. Therefore, my diesel engine uses less fuel than the hybrid...

Perhaps it's because my boot isn't full of heavy batteries?

So because a handfull of cars can get better gas mileage than one hybrid, they are instantly inefficient? So we'll just ignore the other thousand cars that they do get better gas mileage than? Damn, it can't be me... some of you people are just f*cking stupid .
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Old 08-27-2004, 09:03 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
So because a handfull of cars can get better gas mileage than one hybrid, they are instantly inefficient? So we'll just ignore the other thousand cars that they do get better gas mileage than? Damn, it can't be me... some of you people are just f*cking stupid .

DSMer, are you being deliberately offensive, or is the American education system really as bad as I'm led to believe?

You can't compare a hybrid with the majority of cars, because the performance of a hybrid is so poor compared to most vehicles. However, if you're in the market for a hybrid, you're likely to want one because you want to save the planet, or you want to pay less for fuel.

There can't be many people who are stuck picking between a huge, thirsty, SUV and a much smaller, slower hybrid.

However, as I've pointed out, there are plenty of diesel vehicles that perform better, and use less fuel. Therefore, hybrids, at the moment, are redundant.

I don't expect you to understand that, DSMer. In fact, I fully expect you to think up some other offensive insult. But I posted anyway, on the off-chance that you might read this post, think about it for longer than 2 seconds, and perhaps think again before you reply.

This "f'ing stupid" individual has a degree in mechanical engineering, and 11 years experience of working in the car industry. You, however, seem to think you know it all. Give it some thought: it's just possible that it's YOU that is the ignoramus.
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Old 08-27-2004, 01:01 PM   #33
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You can't compare a hybrid with the majority of cars, because the performance of a hybrid is so poor compared to most vehicles. However, if you're in the market for a hybrid, you're likely to want one because you want to save the planet, or you want to pay less for fuel.


I don't care if you invented the car. You're so damn stubborn towards this subject that you are'nt even listenting to what you're typing. This whole statement above is so contradicatory its not even funny. My statement was...

"So because a handfull of cars can get better gas mileage than one hybrid, they are instantly inefficient?"

Now tell me in your right mind, where in the hell did you get performance out of that. Contrary to your popular belief, the sole entire reason of a car is not performance. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the car was invented to make traveling easy, efficient, and cheap. So under those circumstances, even if there are diesel cars that "perform" better, how is a Hyrbird "redudant" if it can save more money than almost every other non-hybrid car on the road(Wich probably is over 50%).

You not only have a car thats over 50% more gas efficient than every other car, and you like to claim that it is redudant. The ignorance behind that whole belief beyond boggles my mind. I'm beginning to believe that it is you who are redudant. Hell maybe you're useless because there are engineers that are probably smarter than you....
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Old 08-27-2004, 02:41 PM   #34
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Boys, boys, boys.

It's all about choices isn't it. That's whay we have 50 different selections of green beans in the damn grocery store. If somebody will buy it, chances are somebody will make it.

Heebee, part of this issue is that diesel engines have somewhat of a bad rap in the American market. They are seen more as poluters because of the particulates that are visible to the public. Yes, I know that they tend to be cleaner running than gasoline engines (when the diesels are kept running properly) but there are the masses that see what they want to see and we have to live with that.

What is even more funny though is that the people who think diesels create more polution are the ones that are pushing for higher MPG gas engines. That is where the hybrids come in. Now you can have your gas engine and get better milage (as long as you drive it properly - have you been following the hybrid milage claim disputes).

Besides, hybrid cars are also an exercise in testing battery technology and developing future cars that may be even more efficient. These car companies are not making much on their hybrid offerings. Some are even losing money on them. But hopefully the knowlege that will be gained will help them discover where to go next.

There has not been as many diesel car offerings in the American market as there has been in the European market as well as the rest of the world. Part of the reason for that is that diesel and gas prices are very close in the US compared to prices in Europe. Gas (petro) is much more expensive in Europe than diesel is. That is a larger incentive for Europeans to purchase diesel cars. That incentive is not found in the US.....yet.

There has been talk though about OEMs thinking about offing a larger diesel car selection in the US so maybe that will change.
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Old 08-27-2004, 04:38 PM   #35
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DSMer,

You really are a bit thick, aren't you?

Car A: everyday, cheap diesel saloon. Capable of 50+mpg. Costs around 12k.

Car B: Hybrid saloon. Capable of 40+mpg. Costs around 17k.

Car A also performs better than car B. Which are you going to choose? Here's a clue: it's car A, unless you're a moron.

My car cost 12k. A Prius is 17.5K. My car uses less fuel than the Prius, has more room in it than the Prius, costs less than the Prius, and goes better than the Prius.

Therefore, I conclude that, as my car is far from unusual in this market, that the hybrid, currently, is pretty much dead in the water. It is thoroughly beaten by the modern diesel.

There DSM, is that clear enough for you?

Oh, and just for interest, diesel is actually more expensive than petrol (gas) in the UK, but the diesel market is still boyant because the economy and performance is so good these days.
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Old 08-27-2004, 10:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heebee
DSMer,

You really are a bit thick, aren't you?

Car A: everyday, cheap diesel saloon. Capable of 50+mpg. Costs around 12k.

Car B: Hybrid saloon. Capable of 40+mpg. Costs around 17k.

Car A also performs better than car B. Which are you going to choose? Here's a clue: it's car A, unless you're a moron.

My car cost 12k. A Prius is 17.5K. My car uses less fuel than the Prius, has more room in it than the Prius, costs less than the Prius, and goes better than the Prius.

Therefore, I conclude that, as my car is far from unusual in this market, that the hybrid, currently, is pretty much dead in the water. It is thoroughly beaten by the modern diesel.

There DSM, is that clear enough for you?

Oh, and just for interest, diesel is actually more expensive than petrol (gas) in the UK, but the diesel market is still boyant because the economy and performance is so good these days.

Thank you, your new statement of the "better choice" just gives me no reason to disagree. Your exclusion of all hybrid cars being redudant was a little dodgy.... Iono about the UK, but over here in the US the diesel is'snt exactly the most popular thing out. As far as I'm concerned the petrol car community dominates the US industry, so there is an imperative need for hybrid cars vs diesel.

VW(although they have offered in the past) are just now offering newer cars that run on diesel, but I highly doubt that small ammount of cars will change or make an epedimic on the US petrol car econmoy. Ireguardless to the few $1000 difference in diesel cars vs Hybrid does'nt matter, especially when people are unfamiliar with diesel.. Americans are quite simple, we don't like huge ammounts of change.

Keeping the car running on gas just makes everything that much more simple. So unless you have anything to add to that I believe we have come to terms where we can agree....?
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Old 08-28-2004, 06:39 AM   #37
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gas vs. diesel in the usa

I wish the us auto makers would produce some diesels to compete in the jetta tdi market. I really think that a ford focus with a diesel would sell, or even a chevy cavalier or dodge neon diesel. But, the best thing they could do for the small diesel engines in lose the timing belts and go to a gear to gear timing like the 83 ford ranger diesel 2.0l had. I never heard of one of those heading for the boneyard because of valves hitting pistons.
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Old 08-30-2004, 10:34 AM   #38
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DSMer,

Yes, I think we can agree. I don't mind arguing with people, I just object when they resort to abuse. I shouldn't have reacted, though.

The Ford Focus diesel in Europe is excellent. On paper, it appears less powerful than the VW diesels, but on the road, it's properly quick. It's smooth, quiet and very economical, and seems to have a better spread of torque than the VW units.

Diesel was unpopular in the UK, until about 5 or 6 years ago. But people have embraced the latest engines, because they impress as soon as you drive one.
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Old 08-30-2004, 03:14 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by heebee
The Ford Focus diesel in Europe is excellent.
You have a ford focus diesel in europe?!!! That's it. I'm going to write ford and ask them what the heck they are thinking, not selling them over here in the u.s.

Last edited by comet-63 : 08-30-2004 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 08-30-2004, 08:17 PM   #40
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They arent' going to sell diesels in teh US until a few things change.

1) diesel fuel in the US is NOT the same diesel fuel as in Europe. it's cheaper than European fuel as it's not as refined, but it IS higher in soot production and sulfurt, so it won't be as clean as Euro diesels OR modern gas engines.

2) the US manufacturers got burned pretty bad in teh '80s doing diesel cars here. Trucks are an easy sell, (and you'll notice how many full size pickups are running around as diesels...) but cars are not. Ford had diesel engines in Tempo's, Rangers, and Lincolns in the '80s, and couldn't sell them. GM built diesels out of gas engines, and they were utter crap. So people have a really bad taste in their mouth about diesels.

I like the torque and economy of a good diesel, but I still don't like the smeell or sound of them. If I can get most of the economy, all the pollution control, and none of the smell or sound, by buying a gasoline powered hybrid, I'd go with that choice.
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Old 09-01-2004, 01:39 PM   #41
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seriously i wouldent mind having a hybrid. i have a 351clevelan 4barrel carb and it gets probly 6-8 miles to the gallon. i mean maybe if the hybrids looked nicer then maybe more people would get one? some guy said about 300 miles for a full tank i mean my god! my car full tank gets about 30miles
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Old 01-15-2005, 08:12 PM   #42
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hybrid cars are the future

for those of you that dont believe that hybrid cars are worth the money, you are totally wrong. First of all hybrid cars are in their beginning stages of development, so they are goning to advance no matter what

there is a website called url removed check it out it displays all the up to date news on hybrid news form different manufactures, plus in the long run, you will save tons of money, want to submit your opinons, go the url removed website and check the forums out

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Old 01-15-2005, 09:32 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zggyzaggy
for those of you that dont believe that hybrid cars are worth the money, you are totally wrong. First of all hybrid cars are in their beginning stages of development, so they are goning to advance no matter what

there is a website called hybrid.com check it out it displays all the up to date news on hybrid news form different manufactures, plus in the long run, you will save tons of money, want to submit your opinons, go the hybrid.com website and check the forums out
Wow, aren't you about to feel dumb? Or perhaps I could use your own words and tell you "you are totally wrong". Hybrid cars have been around since the 19th century. While the new breed of hybrids may be in their developmental infancy, it is certainly not a new idea or entirely new technology. Next time I suggest doing some research BEFORE espousing your opinion.

Oh yeah, http://www.hybridcars.com/history.html .
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Old 01-17-2005, 04:34 PM   #44
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Robert Anderson of Aberdeen Scotland built the first electric vehicle.

Wow.. Exaclty 60 after the light bulb was invented and their not exaclty new are they now?

IMO the best use for a hybrid is inner city use, epecially jus an eletric powered vehicle because it would cause no pollution when stationary or in over-run unlike a hydrocarbon engine that would still be idling...
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Old 01-28-2005, 06:30 AM   #45
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Hello folks, I've just joined in the forum.
Please let me introduce myself.
My name is Steve and I live near Atlanta, Georgia USA and own a '04 Civic Hybrid.
I've owned it for almost exactly a year and 31K miles. Last winter I averaged around 53MPG, last summer just above 60 and so far this winter is about 58MPG. Today I beat my personal MPG record and parked at 69.8MPG. That's not a typo. I usually park at 60-64MPG.
Max MPG is a game I play, and today was one of the most exiting drives I've had yet.
Winter I'm getting about 630 miles to my 10 gallons of gas, last summer was looking for 700.

I commute almost 100 miles round trip from the country side into the city of Atlanta. I leave home at 3PM and leave work again at 1AM. About half of my drive is rural country roads; almost half is freeway with ~2miles very heavy city.

My HCH has been a great car with plenty of pickup and I drive sensibly about speed limits. It replaced a 10 year old Dodge Spirit and I saved over $2,500 in fuel alone over the year. (Based on $1.80 / Gallon)

My other vehicle is a 2002 Dodge Grand Caravan. It's a pig @ 19MPG so it mainly just stays parked.

The reason I bought the car is my long commute and the desire to save fuel costs. There are allot more regular ICE cars that are cheaper, but cheaper isn't what I was after. I wanted a nice, fully loaded car with exceptional MPG.
I'm not a greenie. I think global warming is a natural cycle and don't fall in line with the hype. But that's another topic I suppose.

I'd really prefer the Honda Insight, as some folks are getting around 100MPG in them and I believe I could do the same. But, I needed 5 seats for the family.
I think diesel cars are nice also, but not for me.

I've read some miss-information on hybrid cars here, specifically batteries and performance. If you'd like we can discuss that.

Anyway, thanks for your time.

Last edited by Hot_georgia_'04 : 03-13-2005 at 09:59 AM.
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