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Old 09-29-2005, 06:04 AM   #46
thunderbird1100
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Originally Posted by windsonian
Because it's an odd number. When you've got intake and exhaust valves, an odd number means they must have different numbers. Eg: 2 for intake and 3 for exhaust.

It's usually 3 intake 2 exhaust...I havent known of one the other way, at least off the top of my head.
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Old 09-29-2005, 06:06 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by 99integra
Doesn't the I-VTEC have 4 valves per cylinder and the VTEC has 2?

i-VTEC is just a newer updated version of VTEC.

Both i-VTEC and VTEC run on 4 valves/cylinder.

And both have SOHC/DOHC head setups in various applications.
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Old 09-29-2005, 06:06 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Cliffy
No...it's a 16-Valve in the VTEC

Or 24v, for the VTEC V6's.
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Old 09-29-2005, 11:14 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by thunderbird1100
You are trying to tell me a 3700lb Passat will outhandle an over 1000lb less Corolla?
Yes it will out handle a corolla, I have driven both. Trust me on this one. It most definatly will out handle a corolla.
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Old 09-29-2005, 01:16 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by thunderbird1100
You are trying to tell me a 3700lb Passat will outhandle an over 1000lb less Corolla? I'm not saying the Corolla is a handling god, but jeebus that's an out there claim.

Sure hp/tq is only one thing, I never said it will be exactly like a corollas, but it will be in about that same field. Point still is he isnt going to be touching the acceleration or handling of any car in the 220-250hp realm from Honda (Accord)/Mazda (6)/Nissan (Altima)...all weigh a bit less, handle better, and have more power. Matter fact I'd love to see a 4motion VR6 Passat try and beat a new 06 I4 Accord.

Yes, the Passat will certainly outhandle the Corolla, and no I'm not trying to tell you anything. The Passat has a relatively sophisticated 4WD system and while the Corolla is lighter, it has a very conventional set-up and is softly sprung. Even here in the UK, where we have our cars are far more tautly-sprung than in the US (there are virtually no straight roads here, save for the motorways...), the Corolla isn't exactly famed for it's speed or handling. The Passat 4-motion is, at least relative to ordinary family cars like the Corolla.

With it's significant torque advantage and it's tighter, more controlled chassis and drive system, the Passat would have the Corolla for breakfast.

As for whether the Passat would be as quick as a 220-250hp car, well of course it wouldn't, unless those cars happened to suffer with excessive weight...
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Old 09-29-2005, 04:51 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by BearFace
Yes, the Passat will certainly outhandle the Corolla, and no I'm not trying to tell you anything. The Passat has a relatively sophisticated 4WD system and while the Corolla is lighter, it has a very conventional set-up and is softly sprung. Even here in the UK, where we have our cars are far more tautly-sprung than in the US (there are virtually no straight roads here, save for the motorways...), the Corolla isn't exactly famed for it's speed or handling. The Passat 4-motion is, at least relative to ordinary family cars like the Corolla.

With it's significant torque advantage and it's tighter, more controlled chassis and drive system, the Passat would have the Corolla for breakfast.

As for whether the Passat would be as quick as a 220-250hp car, well of course it wouldn't, unless those cars happened to suffer with excessive weight...

I still would like to see at least some handling numbers of the 4motion Passat (300ft skidpad/700ft slalom).

I still dont know if it could "outhandle" say the Corolla S. I know it definatley cannot outhandle the Corolla XRS. The torque advantage doesnt help much at all, really only on launch. It's the upper end hp that carrys the car when you're in the higher revs...(yes, i know hp comes FROM torque..).

No, those cars honda/nissan/mazda arent anywhere near the weight of the 4 motion passat. That's why I said the the 4 Motion Passat would have a hard time beating just the I4 version of the Accord. What's funny to me is with the new Civic EX, now the Civic EX outhandle AND outaccelerate the Passat.

And the 4 motion is loved for its handling over there? Ouch. Must not get the Accord or Altima.
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:54 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by thunderbird1100
I still would like to see at least some handling numbers of the 4motion Passat (300ft skidpad/700ft slalom).

If that would make you feel better, you should maybe look some up. Personally, I don't buy into limited, unrevealing skidpan tests. Like I said, in the UK we have windy, hilly roads everywhere, so handling is something we know something about. Plus, I worked in chassis design for four years after completing my degree...

Quote:
I still dont know if it could "outhandle" say the Corolla S. I know it definatley cannot outhandle the Corolla XRS. The torque advantage doesnt help much at all, really only on launch. It's the upper end hp that carrys the car when you're in the higher revs...(yes, i know hp comes FROM torque..).

If your knowledge on handling comes purely from someone else's skidpan tests, you're never going to be convinced. Handling is about so much more than what happens on a frikkin' skidpan or slalom course, believe me...

Quote:
No, those cars honda/nissan/mazda arent anywhere near the weight of the 4 motion passat. That's why I said the the 4 Motion Passat would have a hard time beating just the I4 version of the Accord. What's funny to me is with the new Civic EX, now the Civic EX outhandle AND outaccelerate the Passat.

I'm not familar with the model variants in the US, any more than you are with ours in the UK. Over here, the Corolla and Accord are driven by old, retired people and are not reknowned for their performance or handling, save for the Accord Type S. Toyota's and Honda have sports models of course, but they ain't called Corolla or Accord. If the specific models to which you refer have more power and less weight than the Passat VR6, then of course they'll be quicker. But they're not going to have the grip and poise of the 4WD Passat, no matter how loud you shout.

Quote:
And the 4 motion is loved for its handling over there? Ouch. Must not get the Accord or Altima.

Ooops, I've got myself a misquoter. I actually said that the VR6 4Motion was held in higher esteem for it's handling and performance than the Toyota Corolla we can buy over here. In general terms, the Passat 4Motion is probably considered average in the handling dept...

Just one more thing. Over here our cars are consistently set-up with firmer suspension and sharper steering than those available in the US - that's a fact. In other words, if a car is considered a poor handler over here, the same model in the US will be even worse, no question. I've spent time working all over America and whenever I've hired either an American or European car, it's suffered with excessive roll and numb steering, although I accept that in the main this is because thre are more straight roads over there and that folk generally prefer a softer ride to sharp handling. I'm sure there are some cars which are set-up with a more sporty bias, but I know for certain that if I had to choose between a Corolla / Accord or a 4Motion Passat, I'd opt for grip, traction, torque and poise every time.
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Old 09-29-2005, 10:51 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BearFace
If that would make you feel better, you should maybe look some up. Personally, I don't buy into limited, unrevealing skidpan tests. Like I said, in the UK we have windy, hilly roads everywhere, so handling is something we know something about. Plus, I worked in chassis design for four years after completing my degree...



If your knowledge on handling comes purely from someone else's skidpan tests, you're never going to be convinced. Handling is about so much more than what happens on a frikkin' skidpan or slalom course, believe me...



I'm not familar with the model variants in the US, any more than you are with ours in the UK. Over here, the Corolla and Accord are driven by old, retired people and are not reknowned for their performance or handling, save for the Accord Type S. Toyota's and Honda have sports models of course, but they ain't called Corolla or Accord. If the specific models to which you refer have more power and less weight than the Passat VR6, then of course they'll be quicker. But they're not going to have the grip and poise of the 4WD Passat, no matter how loud you shout.



Ooops, I've got myself a misquoter. I actually said that the VR6 4Motion was held in higher esteem for it's handling and performance than the Toyota Corolla we can buy over here. In general terms, the Passat 4Motion is probably considered average in the handling dept...

Just one more thing. Over here our cars are consistently set-up with firmer suspension and sharper steering than those available in the US - that's a fact. In other words, if a car is considered a poor handler over here, the same model in the US will be even worse, no question. I've spent time working all over America and whenever I've hired either an American or European car, it's suffered with excessive roll and numb steering, although I accept that in the main this is because thre are more straight roads over there and that folk generally prefer a softer ride to sharp handling. I'm sure there are some cars which are set-up with a more sporty bias, but I know for certain that if I had to choose between a Corolla / Accord or a 4Motion Passat, I'd opt for grip, traction, torque and poise every time.

I dont base handling solely on numbers (people know I dont around here, just read up on some of my NSX discussions). That's why I asked AT LEAST for some skidpad (grip) and slalom (better indication of handling) numbers. Because im sure it'll be pretty hard to find track numbers of a Corolla and VR6 4 Motion Passat together on the same track on the same day.

If I-75 or I-285 in or around Atlanta isnt tight and fast then I dont know what is. People go 80mph (130kmh I think) with 8 other incredibly small lanes parallel that has the width or maybe a CRX. It's a pretty tight, turny and fast drive. I know we get different varients of cars, we must. Because the 4 Motion Passat VR6 isnt known for anything here in America other than being heavy,slow and unresponsive (handling wise). My father got to drive a W8 4 Motion for a day while his 2002 Acura RL (a big 225hp FWD luxury sedan) was getting serviced and he told me his RL felt tighter and more responsive than the W8 Passat did. He definatley liked the extra thrust the W8 provided over his V6 but that was about it. If he had got the VR6 version he would have been throughly unimpressed though. Now the RL here isn't known at all for handling (Although it is a pretty well handling car, for a big luxury car) and that's why I raise question to the 4 Motion Passat being a pretty good handling car.

The current versions of the Accord here are these...

I4 Version = ~ 175hp
V6 version = ~ 256hp

And the six speed coupe version with the HFP package is known to be one of the best FWD handling cars from the factory, like its cousin you guys get over there, the TSX (or just the Accord Euro-R....or w/e you guys call it).

As for the original debate of Corolla vs. VR6 4 Motion. I only noticed one thing so far that the Corolla does have a quicker steering ratio and a foot and half smaller turning circle.
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Old 09-29-2005, 10:57 PM   #54
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Well are they AWD or FWD or RWD cause in almost all cases rear wheel will be faster Correct? So what luxuxry(sp) sedan can match it? Theirs no way a corolla is luxury. Acura RL what is the price on that?
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Old 09-29-2005, 11:16 PM   #55
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My father got to drive a W8 4 Motion for a day while his 2002 Acura RL (a big 225hp FWD luxury sedan) was getting serviced and he told me his RL felt tighter and more responsive than the W8 Passat did

The problem with the W8 is that it's a severely nose heavy car with far less poise and handling prowess than the VR6 version. In fairness, I don't particularly find the VR6 to be an amazing drive, but I do know that it's reasonably quick and well-balanced for a small/mid-size family car. The Corolla on the other hand...

The very latest Accord is a nice, average family car (as is the very latest Passat - seen it?) but even the hot versions are decidely normal for my tastes. Us Brits like our high-powered stuff, but we tend to favour handling over raw horsepower, and as such our really fast cars tend to be ones which can manage the power (front-wheel drive and 250+hp is not a recipe for a fine-handling road car) and are therefore either rear-drive or 4WD. Cars like the Subaru STi, the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo and the Audi TT are therefore very popular here. But then we also have the small compacts with up to 250hp, and they also tend to be dynamically very sharp indeed, if a little firm in the ride dept...

Our road tests don't incorporate slaloms or skidpans, we just tend to drive the cars flat out over a series of twisty, country roads and then max them at challenging race-tracks against the clock. Any handling deficiencies are soon highlighted and anything which handles like a dog just gets a bad name and simply doesn't sell.

With the fuel prices over here reaching silly levels (how does the equivalent of $10 a gallon grab you?), Europeans are very keen on performance diesels right now. In a small, compact car it's typical to see 140-170hp diesels with torque outputs of 230-270lb/ft at 2000rpm, so there's decent performance on tap with great fuel economy (50MPG) and better resale values. Price is another big factor when comparing US models with UK versions; with cars like my VW Golf GT Tdi (140hp diesel) costing the equivalent of $35,000. If I'd wanted to go for something like the Nissan 350z for example, it'd have cost me the equiv. of $49,000

This is why I ride bikes...

Good talking to you.
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Old 09-30-2005, 01:49 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by thunderbird1100
Yamaha uses it in their bike motors (some) and it's the standard in Forumla 1.

I thought Formula 1 stopped using the 5 valves per cylinder?
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Old 09-30-2005, 01:59 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Spencer
Well are they AWD or FWD or RWD cause in almost all cases rear wheel will be faster Correct? So what luxuxry(sp) sedan can match it? Theirs no way a corolla is luxury. Acura RL what is the price on that?

If given all equal everything, then yes RWD will be quickest in a drag AFTER 300-500ft, AWD will be quickest on launch. RWD>AWD>FWD if we're going down a 1/4 mile here.

The RL is in a luxury car category that the Passat isnt (an RL competes against cars in the $50k range). The Passat competes against the Avalon and alike, big but sill entry level luxury car.

They usually tend to have two types of entry level luxury cars.

Big and unsporty (reletively speaking) - Passat, Crown Victoria and Avalon
Mid-Size with an injection of sport - TSX, BMW 3 series and A4
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Old 09-30-2005, 02:09 AM   #58
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I thought Formula 1 stopped using the 5 valves per cylinder?

I thought they still do with the 3.0L V10?

I dont know, I lost track of F1 after M.S. beat the pants off everyone a year back.

I just checked and yeah they are limited to 4v/cylinder. You know when they stopped with 5v?

The engines are still making over 900hp and revving to 19,000rpms, just sick.
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Old 09-30-2005, 02:18 AM   #59
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I thought they still do with the 3.0L V10?

I dont know, I lost track of F1 after M.S. beat the pants off everyone a year back.

I just checked and yeah they are limited to 4v/cylinder. You know when they stopped with 5v?

The engines are still making over 900hp and revving to 19,000rpms, just sick.

Not that nobody uses them, just the majority, the rules allow it though...
Not sure since when.

Quote:
The advantage of 5-valve engine is still under questioned. Not only few car makers used it (VW group, Ferrari and the bankrupted Bugatti), but Formula One cars also no longer favour it. Even the Ferrari F1 cars which was once famous for 5V engine has switched back to 4-valve design a few years ago.

I got the quote from this site --->
Here's what it says
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Old 09-30-2005, 02:25 AM   #60
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http://www.tirerack.com/upgrade_gara...&autoYear=2002

Which Rims look best with Reflex Silver.

My limit is 100 a rim. Id want to spend less than that though.
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