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View Poll Results: who owns who?
Imports 0wn American muscle 16 44.44%
American muscle 0wn Imports 20 55.56%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-10-2004, 11:00 AM   #61
R34RB30DETTV
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Originally Posted by Cliffy
Hi R34, I'm not too sure about Snoope but where I live in Surrey there is an American car showroom kinda thing, I believe it's in Kingston although I'm not too sure. And as Snoope said, we just about make up the Brit side of things here! Nice to meet ya!


I live in Kent, in the upper most corner just inside the M25.. I saw under your name that you were in surrey, I jus wondered if Snoope was in our vicinity too.. The sad thing about the American garages around here is that they all seem to be tucked away in obscure places and some of them are not listed in the directories at all.. Is the garage you’re thinking of in Kingston called "Genuine Imports Ltd"? nice to meet you too mate.
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Old 03-10-2004, 04:14 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by jzxTT
OMG.. thats ****ing crazy... but i was thinking more .. 1980-and down muscle cars.. not nascars and all that bullshit.. when i say american.. i mean american muscle cars, the one you've mentioned....And what car runs a 4 secong 1/4 mile?

if you want to run an '80 and older musclecar, then you have to compare it to an '80-older Import. And older Musclecars, like the Charger Daytona or Plymouth Superbird were the 200 mph NASCAR racers back when NASCAR was a whole lot closer to factory.

Again, you asked for unlimited tuning money (tuned to the max, money not an issue). Well, that puts Top Fuel dragsters in the unlimited tuning category for American power. Between those and Funny cars (which are also unlimited tuning), you see 6000 hp and 4 second quarter mile times.

But now I see, you don't want to allow older musclecars to have any MODERN money spent on CURRENT modifications, but you DO want to allow MODERN Japanese imports to have unlimited MODERN modifications, so you can see which is faster... That's apples to oranges.

You might as well say, "let's have American and imported cars get unlimited tuning money, but limit American cars to old engines, old tires, no actual engine modifications, and no suspension changes and no non-stock bodywork. If we run a car like that against a JUN Skyline with a million$ in total mods, who would win? The Skyline, so Japanese cars are better!"

Sorry, but with unlimited funds, the bigger engines will always make more power. Because with unlimited funds, everything else is equal.

That Firebird is an '80s model, and the engine is a small block Chevy, the same basic engine that dates back to 1955. I'd say that counts as an American Musclecar that has been "tuned to the max."
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:11 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by R34RB30DETTV
I live in Kent, in the upper most corner just inside the M25.. I saw under your name that you were in surrey, I jus wondered if Snoope was in our vicinity too.. The sad thing about the American garages around here is that they all seem to be tucked away in obscure places and some of them are not listed in the directories at all.. Is the garage you’re thinking of in Kingston called "Genuine Imports Ltd"? nice to meet you too mate.
I'm not at all sure of the name of that place, the only reason I was told about it was because an old work collegue of mine had a US van and he had to take it there for a Power Steering fault..sorry I cant be of much more help lol..I would however suggest that you try the Auto Trader UK website or even the Thames Valley addition of the magazine, I know you ideally want to go via a reputable business but hey...you can pick up a bargain these days mate
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:55 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Cliffy
Appologies SJ and everyone else *Shuts up* oh and anyway..how come we get told to shut...up and everybody else gets popcorn

Well SuperJew?
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Old 03-11-2004, 01:23 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by snoopewite
Well SuperJew?

i guess it wasnt a popcorn moment IMHO. this was more of an annoying argument.
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Old 03-11-2004, 03:14 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ChrisV
if you want to run an '80 and older musclecar, then you have to compare it to an '80-older Import. And older Musclecars, like the Charger Daytona or Plymouth Superbird were the 200 mph NASCAR racers back when NASCAR was a whole lot closer to factory.

Again, you asked for unlimited tuning money (tuned to the max, money not an issue). Well, that puts Top Fuel dragsters in the unlimited tuning category for American power. Between those and Funny cars (which are also unlimited tuning), you see 6000 hp and 4 second quarter mile times.

But now I see, you don't want to allow older musclecars to have any MODERN money spent on CURRENT modifications, but you DO want to allow MODERN Japanese imports to have unlimited MODERN modifications, so you can see which is faster... That's apples to oranges.

You might as well say, "let's have American and imported cars get unlimited tuning money, but limit American cars to old engines, old tires, no actual engine modifications, and no suspension changes and no non-stock bodywork. If we run a car like that against a JUN Skyline with a million$ in total mods, who would win? The Skyline, so Japanese cars are better!"

Sorry, but with unlimited funds, the bigger engines will always make more power. Because with unlimited funds, everything else is equal.

That Firebird is an '80s model, and the engine is a small block Chevy, the same basic engine that dates back to 1955. I'd say that counts as an American Musclecar that has been "tuned to the max."
Well I assumed that muscle cars were no longer made afet the 80's.
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Old 03-11-2004, 02:51 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by SuperJew
i guess it wasnt a popcorn moment IMHO. this was more of an annoying argument.

So if Cliffy was doing a good job of barating a know it all little know n00b then it would have been time for the and not the

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
3) No replacement for displacement. Now, when I was working with sport compacts back in the '80s, it was fun to take a small engine and make teh car fast. But the truth is, there IS no replacement for displacement, and every engine builder knows it. That's why the Honda S2000 doesn't use a modded 1.6 liter or 1.8 liter version of the engine in the ITR. They could easily make the same hp with the smaller engine, but they decided to make it larger. And this year, they made it larger yet, though the hp isn't really different. Why do you think that is? Larger displacement makes better power for street use. The engine is more flexible, providing greater power over a wider rpm range.
4) Physical size. The typical small block Chevy is physically smaller than an inline 6, or DOHC V8 or V6. Since 'the early '90s, they've been all aluminum, so they weigh less than most I6 or V6 (or imported V8s). the engine is not the reason the cars that hold them are heavy. And if they are put into smaller cars, they rarely change the weight balance or overall weight by any noticeable amount. Same for the small block Ford (which is physically smaller yet, but only comes in an iron block).
6) road racing/autocross. The argument is domestics can't handle. Usually spouted by someone who has never seen american cars road racing or autocrossing, or someone who drove a buddy's drag race Camaro or Mustang and assumed that's a representative sample. The truth is they work pretty good, and any trip to a major road race or autocross event will confirm that. If you don't go to one of them, and still think they can't handle, your opinion is without merit. I've been doing both for a couple decades, in both american and imported cars. My opinion is that either domestic or imported are good choices.

Originally Posted by ChrisV

2) Wings can't do anything for fwd cars. This is a bit of misinformation that is very prevalent, as people automatically assume a rear wing is ONLY used for accellerative traction. Thus a FWD car supposedly has the wing on the wrong end. Nothing could be further from the truth. Wings are there for downforce (or reducing lift) but also for stability. In fact, I can show you how a proper wing can reduce the road race lap times of a car like a Honda Civic without adding a single horsepower...
First, however, you need to understand how a FWD car works when on the track. In stock form, they are set up to understeer. A nice safe way to be for the average driver. But, under sudden decelleration, they can transition to oversteer as the weight is transferred forward. This could be dangerous (and has proven so in numerous occasions). This means you have to slow down considerably in a straight line before turning, increasing lap times. In order to combat this you could increase the front swaybar size, but that would mean you are making the car understeer even worse under power or in lower speed corners. Since in road racing, more corners are lower speed than high speed, you want to reduce understeer as much as possible. By increasing rear stiffness and increasing rear swaybar size, you can reduce understeer (and in fact, generate oversteer) to make the car turn in crisply. But this increases the tendency to oversteer under braking for higher speed coerners, and become genereally unstable. To keep the crisp turn in you've created for lower speed corners, but remove the oversteer tendencies, you add a rear wing. At low speeds (35-50 mph, the wing has little to no effect, thus allowing the rear to come around cleanly and be neutral. At higher speeds, (such as decellerating from 100-120 for an 80 mph corner) the wing keeps teh rear planted so the car doesn't spin, and keeps it in line at 80 or so. This means you can brake later for the corner and no slow down as much, reducing lap times and increasing average speed, without adding even one horsepower...
Since the wing doesn't add significant drag until you reach 130-150 mph, and you tend not to go that fast in most places, it's a perfect tradeoff.
3) Of course this is the other part of the put down: the thought that a wing only works at high speed (120 mph and up) and that a car with one MUST go 150-200 before needing it. That's just not true. Any aerodynamic device starts working as soon as air is flowing over it. The lower the speed it needs to work at, the larger it has to be to provide the necessary effect on the object it's working on. That's why a Piper Cub airplane can FLY at 35 mph! Most inverted airfoil wings are good at speeds as low as 70-80 mph, and thus could easily be tuned to keep the rear planted in the typical freeway cloverleaf offramp...
Look at the typical SCCA A-Mod autocrosser, with HUGE wings front and rear, to provide enough downforce for 2 G cornering at speeds as low as 35-40 mph.

Well it's time for me to give my on what you had to say ChrisV. I enjoyed reading both of those posts but I just decided to quote my favourite bits
3+4) Didn't you forget to mention that bigger engines can generally handle more power than smaller engines to boot?
2+3) I have indeed been misinformed about wings in the past.
You nailed some great points and used good examples to try to make sure that you hammered your points home. Excellent stuff

It's just too bad that the dummies in here ignore what people say in posts that have actually had some thought put into them I suffer with you Chris, I really do
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Old 03-11-2004, 09:35 PM   #68
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I know you guys are probably sick of the whole import vs muscle car arguement, but myself not being well educated on cars, have learned a lot just by reading this, so if you guys think there is no point to the arguement, think again, because it really filled me in on more than just how much horsepower a car has...good stuff
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Old 03-12-2004, 12:18 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by R34RB30DETTV
yeah, sorry i didn't make my unsilenced V8 statement quite clear.. i mean i love the sound of unsilenced V8's, like you said thier at cruises and also at santa pod etc. but also i love the sound of road legal V8 too, although not quite so "meaty" still a great sound.

Yeah, I don't think I've ever properly heard anything more than a V6 in the flesh until the Friday before last. It was when I was in a lorry and a TVR overtook us. It might have even been a Speed 12. The TVR driver had to slow down for another car ahead that was turning off so we caught him up and then he left us again at 55mph. The full throttle roar made me drool Well not really, I'm exaggerating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R34RB30DETTV
where do you (snoopewite)reside? are there any american garages near you?

Sorry that I missed this one. You might have already read by now that I live in Sheffield but I don't know of any American garages near me.
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Old 03-12-2004, 12:27 AM   #70
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Hmm i dont even know where to start, for one Domstics will always be faster. Put it this way most of the time to make imports faster you do a swap. So take a fully built 350 and put that in a S10 and compare that to putting a Type R motor in a crx the CRX would run good solid high 11's or 12's but that S10 will fly even if you mod the CRX it wont keep up with a fully built 350 in a light car.

Now that i said that you guys are wrong about it takes 15,000 to make an import fast, i will have put around 3200 in my car and i should hopuflly be running low 13's on street tires, and i still have many mods i can do so for who ever said it takes tons of money to make a car fast is wrong. You may have payed 4g's for your car that runs tens supposeldy but its still a bug.

And as for whoever said it is more of a challenge working on domestics then imports, YOU ARE AN IDIOT even most domestic say imports are to hard to work with to much technology in them, domestics are by far the easyest cars to work on everything is soo simple and every little thing makes a differance. Compared to imports where tehy are not mod friendly. If you want a reall project getting a honda into 10's and below getting a V8 into tens shouldnt be a big deal.

I like both i like all cars i can play wiht but i love my honda that beats MOST V8's and i love V8's period.
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Old 03-12-2004, 01:56 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by boosted99si
Hmm i dont even know where to start, for one Domstics will always be faster. Put it this way most of the time to make imports faster you do a swap. So take a fully built 350 and put that in a S10 and compare that to putting a Type R motor in a crx the CRX would run good solid high 11's or 12's but that S10 will fly even if you mod the CRX it wont keep up with a fully built 350 in a light car.

Now that i said that you guys are wrong about it takes 15,000 to make an import fast, i will have put around 3200 in my car and i should hopuflly be running low 13's on street tires, and i still have many mods i can do so for who ever said it takes tons of money to make a car fast is wrong. You may have payed 4g's for your car that runs tens supposeldy but its still a bug.

And as for whoever said it is more of a challenge working on domestics then imports, YOU ARE AN IDIOT even most domestic say imports are to hard to work with to much technology in them, domestics are by far the easyest cars to work on everything is soo simple and every little thing makes a differance. Compared to imports where tehy are not mod friendly. If you want a reall project getting a honda into 10's and below getting a V8 into tens shouldnt be a big deal.

I like both i like all cars i can play wiht but i love my honda that beats MOST V8's and i love V8's period.
Calling someone an idiot it not a good way to start off at CF, but ill give you credit, you actually now about cars unlike some people here, good job . What have you done to your honda? No honda has ever beaten me. .
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Old 03-12-2004, 02:19 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by jzxTT
Calling someone an idiot it not a good way to start off at CF, but ill give you credit, you actually now about cars unlike some people here, good job . What have you done to your honda? No honda has ever beaten me. .
I would just like to point out that the above "compliment" was given by someone who's major accomplishment in the automotive arena is getting Mommy to write checks for him. Take said "compliment" for what it is worth.
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Old 03-12-2004, 02:47 AM   #73
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I would just like to point out that the above "compliment" was given by someone who's major accomplishment in the automotive arena is getting Mommy to write checks for him. Take said "compliment" for what it is worth.
My "mommy" giving money has nothing to do with my knowledge of Z's. Long time no post, where've you been?
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Old 03-12-2004, 02:54 AM   #74
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My "mommy" giving money has nothing to do with my knowledge of Z's. Long time no post, where've you been?
Hmmmm. Your compliment was to someone who talked about CRX's and S-10's, how does that relate to your "knowledge of Z's"? Nevermind, those who care to read already got it and those who don't, won't.

At any rate where I've been is directly related to the huddled masses getting tax checks so they can afford to perform long overdue maintenance and repair on their pride and joys. Unfortunately for me it's the same time I chose to rent some equipment to clear 50 or so acres. Lucky me.
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Old 03-12-2004, 05:26 AM   #75
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Maybe idiot is not the best way to start but he was wrong i didnt want to sound like a dick or anything so.... i guess im sorry. But as far as what i have done to my honda i have a B16a2 comes with all si's Greddy turbo kit XS-RFl Bov, Greddy type 24 intercooler, GSR cams, ITR ported manifold, 3" pipeing from downpipe back, and DC short shifter and should be running 7psi. The kit, bov, and intercooler arent in yet they will be here at the end of the month.

In my car right now i have ITR cams, Injen CAI, ITR ported manifold, the 3" exhuast, JUN 4-1 header, no cat, and the DC short shifter.
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