Car Forums  

Go Back   Car Forums > General Discussions > General Chat
FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-04-2006, 02:33 PM   #61
TheFieroKid
CF Freak
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 578
The new mustang, that box of a scion, ford focus, any pick up truck on the market, chrysler 300C
__________________
TheFieroKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 04:49 PM   #62
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimario
OK Chris, calm down, if they think that a PT Cruiser is ugly, what's wrong with that? It's his opinion.

Jesus, why not actually respnd to MY questions rather than just bitch about me giving MY opinion? Hmm?

If I came on here and said "all 4 cyl cars are slow and rusty, like my old Rabbit L" and someone pointed out a drag racing VW Bug, or a turbo DSM, would I be looked upon as intelligent or worth listening to if I said, "I don't care what the facts are or who likes them, it's my opinion that they are all slow and rusty."

If I came on here and said it's my opinion, "all blacks are lazy theives who don't bathe" AND backed it up with the fact that I had a black roommate that never bathed, never held a job, and stole money, clothes, and CDs from the other roommates, would that opinion be looked on as acceptable, or even laudable? it is, after all, merely opinion. Would you say, "he's not racist, it's merely how he feels" to someone that complained about that opinion? Even if it was insulting and racist, why would anyone be offended or complain about someone on an internet message board that said that? Is it that internet message boards don't have real people on them?


Even positive opinions can make the person voicing them look stupid: "I love Skylines becasue their V8s are so powerful."


This thread was designed to be insulting as it was specifically asked to be negative.. It's not like saying, "what's your favorite color." or like asking, "what's your opinion on the best way to get around a corner." And the particular question is asked by someone without the experience to make an informed judgement. It has nothing to do with having a different opinion, but an INFORMED opinion. And it has nothing to do with VOICING an opinion, but everything to do with people deciding whether or not FORMING an uninformed opinion is more important that thinking about the subject and maybe learning about the subject.


Quote:
Whether or not he's insulting you, that's what he thinks. If you can't stand some kid on the internet thinking your car is ugly, then you need some help. If you can stand, leave him alone, he's not doing anything to you. And about classic cars not being able to be ugly, I happen to think that Marylin Monroe and Britny Spears are two of the ugliest girl I've ever seen, why can't people think that the Kharmann Ghia and PT are?

Again, do internet message boards not have real people on them? Would you walk up to someone on the street and say, "man, your baby is ugly? Would you walk up to a man on the street and say, "I don't like women who look like yor wife. It's my opinion that she's ugly." Are you saying they shouldn't be offended by what some random person says to them? Would YOU be offended if someone said that about your wife/girlfriend? I daresay that someone that said it to you in person would find themselves with a mouthful of fist, and rightfully so.


Quote:
Also, not alot of people know about cars from companies such as Citroen(sp?) and other companies, but they can still have an opinion as to what they think is the ugliest car is. And they're mad if they think it's the PT, it doesn't look THAT bad.

Again, I asked what is their basis of reference. The point was to see if they had any actual knowledge. Are you seriously suggesting that having no knowledge means that someone SHOULD be listened to? Should we start taking mechanical advice from people who know nothing? You want to go tell Hobo that we don't need his expertise in the repairs section because forming an opinion on what might be wrong, based on no knowledge, is actually just as important as his expert advice based on training and years of experience?? Is that what you're saying? Where do you cross the line from listening to peopel who dont' know anything to actually wanting people to use their f*cking brains?

ok, here's the deal:

Opinions are learned. If people want to have their opinion valued, they need to show that they can think about them. Otherwise, why even bother POSTING it? This is a forum for yes, expressing opinions. But why is it ok for him to express HIS, but I can't express one IN RETURN? Hmm? You have never answered that. If it's ok for him to say that's how HE feels, why can't I say how I feel? It's hypocritical of you to say he can state anything he wants, but *I* can't. I don't say he CAN'T state it, I ask people to reason WHY they say things.

I have, however expressed the thought and reasoning behind MY opinion. There's more to having an opinion than merely STATING it.

The reason beauty is in the eye of the beholder is that beauty is a learned response. We think that even knowing the beauty of the female form is innate, not learned, but that's not true, either. Otherwise the image of beauty would not have changed over the years, or in different cultures.

And since cars are unnatural objects, we derive their beauty often from an understanding of what they do. Think about cars we consider attractive that range from say, a '34 Ford highboy to an Audi R8, from a Ferrari Dino to a BMW M3. None of them are remotely the same, yet, all are considered attractive. Why? Learned responses.

If you can't voice your learned responses intelligently, why should I or anyone listen to the opinion you've formed BASED on that, especially when that opinion is designed from the start to be negative and insulting?
__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com

Last edited by ChrisV : 01-04-2006 at 04:52 PM.
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 05:13 PM   #63
boothe
CF Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: DC
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun1608
everyone the thread is all about the cars you think are ugly

i would say the uglyest car in my opinion is thr PT cruiser

The PT and Scion are tragic. I don't like the whole PT knock off trend either, they look like herses imo. And, the Scion might actually be the first car with right angles. The only cars that boxy should be Jeeps and you should be able to drive them up a freaking mountain (witness the Commander)!
boothe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 06:10 PM   #64
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
Remember, people like C4Power and Oombah were banned for insulting cars and people over the internet. If it were impossible to be insulted or offended by mere posting of opinion then how does THAT happen?

C4Power is back:

http://www.car-forums.com/talk/showthread.php?t=19086

And people even in this thread complaining about ME, have called people like him an idiot for merely stating his opinion. Hell, look how many people call newyorker an idiot and uninformed, yet he's merely posting HIS opinions.

Now, boothe, a hearse is a station wagon with a landau roof. A Mazda P5 is as much a hearse as a PT Cruiser. An Audi RS4 is as much a hearse. Do you also think THEY are "tragic?"

I want to see what sort of logic you use that cannot be applied to cars you DO like.

It's one thing to say you prefer other cars. It's quite another to use retarded reasoning to insult the ones you DON'T like.
__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 08:14 PM   #65
boothe
CF Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: DC
Posts: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
Remember, people like C4Power and Oombah were banned for insulting cars and people over the internet. If it were impossible to be insulted or offended by mere posting of opinion then how does THAT happen?

C4Power is back:

http://www.car-forums.com/talk/showthread.php?t=19086

And people even in this thread complaining about ME, have called people like him an idiot for merely stating his opinion. Hell, look how many people call newyorker an idiot and uninformed, yet he's merely posting HIS opinions.

Now, boothe, a hearse is a station wagon with a landau roof. A Mazda P5 is as much a hearse as a PT Cruiser. An Audi RS4 is as much a hearse. Do you also think THEY are "tragic?"

I want to see what sort of logic you use that cannot be applied to cars you DO like.

It's one thing to say you prefer other cars. It's quite another to use retarded reasoning to insult the ones you DON'T like.

Um, isn't this thread about cars that in each of our opinions are ugly? I think the PT Cruiser and the Scion are ugly and I stated reasons why (and was not the only person with this opinion!). I think opinions on appearences are a pretty knee jerk reaction, and don't necessarily need to be well thought out or reasoned!
boothe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 08:22 PM   #66
SmileLines
CF Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 89
ChrisV

Quote:
But remember, they are his opinion, and opinions can't be wrong, or even questioned... (I think yo've even told me that before...)

Sorry, but did you not post this on another board?

Quote:
opinions can't be wrong, or even questioned

Then why are you questioning everyone elses?
If someone doesn't like a car you like, so what? It's their opinion and "opinions can't be wrong" can they? Calm down a little...

Why do I feel like I made a big mistake by posting this?

Let the insults begin I suppose...
__________________
Seven chipmunks twirling on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncles ranch!
SmileLines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 08:32 PM   #67
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by boothe
Um, isn't this thread about cars that in each of our opinions are ugly? I think the PT Cruiser and the Scion are ugly and I stated reasons why (and was not the only person with this opinion!). I think opinions on appearences are a pretty knee jerk reaction, and don't necessarily need to be well thought out or reasoned!

Did you read my post? Opinions on appearances are learned, not knee jerk.

And your "reasoning" is that it looks like a hearse and is "tragic." Well, a hearse is a station wagon, so therefore why are coars that look even MORE like hearses not on your list, if that's the reason you want to use?

Why is it so important to be insulting about it, instead of just saying "I like somthing else?" And if you insust on BEING insulting about it, why complain if I give my opinion of YOU in return? After all, it's my opinion so you can't complain, otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Why is it that opinions can't be examined to see what they are based on? And if reasons are given, why can't we have an intelligent discussion ABOUT those reasons? Isn't a forum about knowledge?

Ok, you don't like hearses. One woudl think that logically, if you didn't like something because you think it looks like a hearse, then hearses are ugly too, and in fact the thing itself should be uglier to you than the thing that merely looks like it.

So you don't like this:



And you don't like this because you think it looks the same:



But you like this, even though it ALSO looks like a hearse...





I'm trying to follow your reasoning, how you arrived at your learned response. I'm trying to determine if you're an intellignet person that can learn, or an animal, slave to base instinct with no ability to learn anything. Which is it?
__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 08:43 PM   #68
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
[quote=SmileLines]Then why are you questioning everyone elses?[/quiote]

To prove a point. If I can't question anyone elses, then they can't question mine. If they feel the need to tell me I can't post mine then they are being hypocritical, are they not?

Quote:
It's their opinion and "opinions can't be wrong" can they? Calm down a little...

Actually, the point is that opinions CAN be wrong, and merely stating something as an opinion doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to use your brain or not be insulting about it. if you abdicate that responsibility, then I feel no remorse in returning the favor.

If I respond by saying it's my opinion you're a feeble minded idiot, am I right? Are you actually a feeble minded idiot becasu my opinion is stated that way? Are you insulted by it? You are afraid of being insulted and said so when you posted. Why be afraid if it's just words on the internet, right?

In real life OR on forums that are about sharing knowledge, you still have the responsibility to use your brain. It's EASIER on a forum because you can pause and think about what you wrote before hitting the "submit" button. You can make sure your facts are in line before making a statement that people around the world WILL read. As I asked before, woudl you walk up to someone and say, "I don't like women like your wife. It's my opinion she's the ugliest women out there." Do you expect a polite response? Would you GIVE a polite response if someone walked up to YOU and said that? Would you give a polite response if someone walked into your place of work and said that? It's not about being PC, it's about being intelligent.

Should we in fact find it acceptable in our hobby/industry to encourage ignorance and lack of thinking? Should we encourage people to value random, knee jerk opinion over knowledge? Would you want to get advice in the repairs section from people who had no clue just giving out random opinions?


This is a huge, ongoing problem, not just a random thread.
__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 10:06 PM   #69
boothe
CF Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: DC
Posts: 321
Look, I've obviously jumped in a much larger conversation here and I appreciate what you're saying about defending your opinions with logic. To me PT cruisers are taller and more oblong than the average station wagon and that combined with the oft tinted windows remind me of a herse. That's it, there isn't much more thought that goes into it on that particular subject, though I assure you I can talk ad nauseum about other topics! Onto the next thread. See ya around fellas.

Last edited by boothe : 01-04-2006 at 10:09 PM.
boothe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 10:21 PM   #70
SmileLines
CF Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 89
Actually, I'm not afraid of being insulted. I just assumed that there will be insults directed at me because of my post. Actually, I enjoy a good debate.

I understand the point you're trying to make, and in many ways I agree with you.

Quote:
Actually, the point is that opinions CAN be wrong, and merely stating something as an opinion doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to use your brain or not be insulting about it. if you abdicate that responsibility, then I feel no remorse in returning the favor.


I agree, opinions can be wrong. It really depends on what the opinion is. If the opinion clearly states false information that has been proved, then it can be proved wrong. But I believe some opinions you cannot prove to be wrong or right because there is lack of evidence behind them.

For example, a person saying "The PT Cruiser is ugly!"
That opinion can't be proved right or wrong because there is probably no study that has been done on if it is an ugly vehicle or not.
Just because the vehicle has had many sales, doesn't mean that it is an "attractive" vehicle. If someone says it's "ugly" doesnt make it an "unattractive" vehicle. Beauty's in the eye of the beholder.

Quote:
I asked before, woudl you walk up to someone and say, "I don't like women like your wife. It's my opinion she's the ugliest women out there." Do you expect a polite response? Would you GIVE a polite response if someone walked up to YOU and said that? Would you give a polite response if someone walked into your place of work and said that? It's not about being PC, it's about being intelligent.

No, I would never walk up to someone and say such a harmful thing. If I did, I wouldn't expect a polite response. But if someone did say something like that to me, I would ignore it. That's just my personality, though. Not everyone would respond the same. I don't understand where intelligence comes into play on that one. Am I unintelligent because I would choose to ignore the comment?

Also, I feel that comparing a woman, an actual complex human being, to a car, a machine, is a little bit unfair. A car doesn't have thoughts or feelings. It's just an object. Although it may be an object that someone may hold dear to them, I find it very different from an actual person. A car won't begin to cry and start examining it's self worth over a comment. At least, I hope not...

Quote:
Should we in fact find it acceptable in our hobby/industry to encourage ignorance and lack of thinking? Should we encourage people to value random, knee jerk opinion over knowledge? Would you want to get advice in the repairs section from people who had no clue just giving out random opinions?

Absolutely not. I strongly agree with you on the value of knowledge and that we shouldn't encourage ignorance. But every person is ignorant in their own ways. Of course, a person shouldn't be ignorant in their chosen career. Sadly, there are some people who are. But isn't it important to respect others ignorance and do what we can to educate them. I'm sure you are ignorant of some things. I know I am. I'm just saying that everyone can learn from another.

I don't think the person who started this thread or have said that your vehicle is "ugly" meant to hurt anyone's pride. Most of the posts were just stating a general opinion, not expecting to discuss the reason behind their opinions. There is plenty to discuss and debate over. But I don't think anyone expected anything other than just a simple listing of cars they find "ugly". But this is just my opinion.
__________________
Seven chipmunks twirling on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncles ranch!
SmileLines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 11:25 PM   #71
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileLines
I agree, opinions can be wrong. It really depends on what the opinion is. If the opinion clearly states false information that has been proved, then it can be proved wrong. But I believe some opinions you cannot prove to be wrong or right because there is lack of evidence behind them.

For example, a person saying "The PT Cruiser is ugly!"
That opinion can't be proved right or wrong because there is probably no study that has been done on if it is an ugly vehicle or not.
Just because the vehicle has had many sales, doesn't mean that it is an "attractive" vehicle. If someone says it's "ugly" doesnt make it an "unattractive" vehicle. Beauty's in the eye of the beholder.

Which is why I made the larger post about beauty being a learned response. Especially about unnatural objects like cars. In the PT's case, it isn't just sales numbers, but the REASONS for the sales. The PT sold BECAUSE of it's style, and the Aztek failed because of ITS style. Therefore a fairly accurate study can be made about where on the scale of ugly<---->not ugly a vehicle lies as an overall judgement. This is where intelligence and learning comes in.



Quote:
No, I would never walk up to someone and say such a harmful thing. If I did, I wouldn't expect a polite response. But if someone did say something like that to me, I would ignore it. That's just my personality, though. Not everyone would respond the same. I don't understand where intelligence comes into play on that one. Am I unintelligent because I would choose to ignore the comment?

Intelligence comes into play in the mind of the person MAKING the comment. Or in thinking about how others might react if YOU made the comment. In the ability to step back and look at the larger picture before making the comment, or at least learning to do so after it was pointed out how flawed the comment was.

Quote:
Also, I feel that comparing a woman, an actual complex human being, to a car, a machine, is a little bit unfair. A car doesn't have thoughts or feelings. It's just an object. Although it may be an object that someone may hold dear to them, I find it very different from an actual person. A car won't begin to cry and start examining it's self worth over a comment. At least, I hope not...

So there's a scale at which it is perfectly acceptable to insult another person's valuable possesions? Yeah, that's true. "That's an ugly tie, Bob." usually won't be met by any sort of violence, though it wouldn't be out of line to have a similar comment returned from Bob. The point was to show how being rude and insulting isn't absolved by stating "it's my opinion." The intelligent, or adult thing to do when your insult is pointed out is to apologize, not defend your insult as an opinion...

OTOH, in a situation like this, is it really that important to defend being insulting to start with? If it's not important enough to get upset about being insulted, is it also not important enough to defend holding tightly to an insulting negative opinion? That's a valid question.


Quote:
I'm sure you are ignorant of some things. I know I am. I'm just saying that everyone can learn from another.

Oh, of course! I've often said I don't know everything. No one CAN. For example, I know absolutely nothing about medical procedures. So I don't go on medical forums and argue my opinion of how to best treat heart failure. I don't go on medical forums and say it's my opinion that angina can best be treated by rubbing grape jelly on your chest. Or that the latest MRI machine is stupid because I think it's ugly.

This is the difference. And it's what is happening here.

If you are ignorant of a subject you are interested in, don't argue from a postion of ignorance. That's common sense, and a measure of intelligence. Again, it isn't about the right to be ignorant, or about having a differnce of opinion, but the defense of arguing from a position of ignorance, and holding tightly to unfounded, mistaken, or ill-thought-out opinion.




Quote:
I don't think the person who started this thread or have said that your vehicle is "ugly" meant to hurt anyone's pride. Most of the posts were just stating a general opinion, not expecting to discuss the reason behind their opinions. There is plenty to discuss and debate over. But I don't think anyone expected anything other than just a simple listing of cars they find "ugly". But this is just my opinion.

The point of ANY "ugly car" thread is to be insulting. Period. Someone has a negative opinion and they want it reinforced. No one learns ANYTHING from merely listing some cars they think are ugly. It's never happened and it never will. Even on threads I've not participated in, but read on this and other forums, it always is the same. Someone wants to show how "right" they are are by insulting something and inviting others to do the same.

So I respond in kind. Even about cars I don't own. No one here, even me, has the knowledge base to know every car ever made, to know what's the ugliest "ever." It simply devolves into a couple favorite whipping stock of whatever year we are in with people jumping on the bandwagon without even thinking what they are saying (and as has been stated here, people are proud of forming opinions with no thought whatsoever, as though that proves how valuable those opinnions are!)


The main point is, as has been agreed on by a few people, opinions can be wrong. Given that, isn't it more intelligent or valuable to examine negative opinions and learn than merely stating them? That is, if anyone is actually here to learn, rather than just read their own opinions...
__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2006, 11:39 PM   #72
PontiacFan27
CF Extraordinaire
 
PontiacFan27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Grove City, PA
Posts: 1,332
Opinions cant be wrong, its not possible. There is a difference between opinion and fact. Fact can be proven, opinion cant.
__________________
PontiacFan27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 12:09 AM   #73
Pythias
CF Extraordinaire
 
Pythias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ohio, U.S.
Posts: 1,831
Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorker

Pontiac....maybe women just arent your thing.

And maybe whores are your thing. After all you have to pay.
__________________
"Though I drive through the valley of rice,I shall fear no turbo for torque art with me. Thy rod and piston, they comfort me."

"It is not the strong who will win, but the winner who is strong." -ROTK7
"You wrote "The World Doesn't Need A Savior" but everyday I hear people crying for one."
Pythias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 12:17 AM   #74
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacFan27
Opinions cant be wrong, its not possible. There is a difference between opinion and fact. Fact can be proven, opinion cant.


I think you missed the point. Opinions are indeed based on facts. If the facts are wrong, then so is the opinion. Opinions are always opinions, but they can indeed be wrong. Saying they can't be is a cop out to ensure you don't have to actually think.

If it's my opinion that all Pontiacs are rusty piles of crap that won't run for more than 5 minutes without breaking, is that opinion right or wrong? Would I be right or wrong in making that comment? Or can it not be proven one way or the other?

Please, use your brain. READ what I've typed and make an intelligent comment.
__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2006, 12:27 AM   #75
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
Let's put it this way, everything anyone says is their opinion. If opinions can't be wrong, then no one could ever make a mistake. Has anyone who ever worked with/for you been wrong? Are you sure it wasn't merely their opinion? Shall we allow that everyone over in the repairs section handing out advice is not making a mistake, because every statement there is an opinion, and opinions, according to you, can't be wrong?

Even if you never went to school, every statement you made about the way the world works would be your opinion. But without learning, would you be right? Do you think you'd get hired as an electrician if you stated on the job application that it's your opinion that electricity is really angels running really fast? Do you think you'd get hired as a mechanic if you stated that it's your opinion that adding a dog to the intake manifold would increase fuel mileage?

Sorry, the statement "opinion can't be wrong" is bullshit, designed to allow you to say any damn fool thing that comes into your head without the responsibility of knowing what youre talking about.
__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2002 - 2011 Car Forums. All rights reserved.