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Old 01-05-2006, 12:56 AM   #76
ChrisV
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Ferom another forum (not authored by me...)

.................

I hear a lot of arguments -- on everything from gun control to whether the soul is a substance formed in the fifth dimension. Within these arguments there is a move that gets made often enough to depress my philosopher's soul -- whatever dimension it inhabits. Someone has just had their position skewered and heads for higher ground by huffing "Well, I'm entitled to my opinion."

This doesn't do much for the discussion, but isn't it true for all that? Don't we have a right to our opinions?

It depends on what you mean.

In this country, we are legally entitled to believe anything we like, though whether we may act on all our beliefs is rightly another matter. So far, then, so true: everyone has a legal right to hold and -- subject to remarkably few constraints -- express any opinion. This isn't trivial. In some societies, holding certain opinions can lead to brutal consequences. Most of us, including me, find that appalling, and so we might go further and say: even if the law didn't recognize it, everyone would have a moral right -- a basic human right -- to believe anything at all.

All this is high-minded, but, it leaves something out. We don't think people should be persecuted for what they believe, but typically when people insist on their right to their opinions they aren't being persecuted. What is usually going on is that their views have been challenged, and they've run out of things to say. But my right to an opinion doesn't conflict with your right to argue that I'm wrong.

What we need is another category: not legal rights, not moral rights but "logical rights," to concoct an awkward phrase. Logical rights aren't cheap; the coin of the realm is evidence, judgment and knowledge.

An illustration: some physicists now suspect that quarks have smaller parts. Other than the brief story or two I've read, I know nothing about the evidence and not a whole lot more about quarks themselves. Am I entitled to an opinion on this issue?

It sounds a little odd to say I am. Of course I shouldn't be shot if I start spouting about quarklets, or whatever they might be called. Ignored, perhaps. Or better, reminded that I don't know what I'm talking about. Here we have a clear case of having no logical right to a view. I simply don't know enough to have a basis for an opinion.

This case may be clear, but there is a sort of a slide when it comes to opinions. Most people recognize that a casual opinion about whether it rained in London on July 17th, 1532 is worth nothing. It's a matter of fact that doesn't yield to mere speculation. Most people also recognize that they haven't earned the right to opinions about elementary particles or the number of irreducible representations of the four-dimensional rotation group. These matters call for specialized knowledge. On questions that deal with people, however, caution is more likely to be cast aside.

What we can do is learn to be more aware of what we don't know. Like Winston Churchill's modest little man, we have much to be modest about when it comes to our beliefs. And when we're called up short, we can stop and think rather than insist on our rhetorical rights.

.........................

And from another article...

An opinion is an opinion. No one ever said an opinion was the ultimate, final answer. An opinion is simply the stance you choose to take on issues after carefully weighing all sides and looking at all the relevant information.

Making a good case for an opinion starts with complete knowledge of the subject with which you take issue. There must be a firm foundation of facts to back up what you believe.

Share your opinion, but be prepared to back up your beliefs with facts.

..........................

And lastly, there is a differnce in opinion stated as casual opinion, and opinon stated as irrevocable fact. And there's a difference in stating an opinion to make your opinion known, and stating it it to insult something or someone. For example, there is a difference between saying "chocolate is my favorite flavor" and saying "chocolate is better than vanilla because vanilla sucks, and people who like vanilla are stupid." Both are statements of opinion, and are basically saying the same thing. But there is a difference in how they are presented and how they will be responded to by others.
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:04 AM   #77
Mathew
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Chris, I think the PT Cruiser is ugly. I don't mean to offend you by it, but that is my opnion. If you think an E30 M3, one of my favorite cars, is ugly, that doesn't offend me, it is simply your opinion. If you think an '88 Integra, the car I own and drive, is ugly, I'm still not offended. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that.

I realize that you have far more experience than most of the members here, including myself, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to their own opinion. Opinion of beauty (or ugliness) is a feeling. It might change with experience and knowledge, but it is still a feeling that you cannot purposely change.

Your comparison about the black man is not relevant. Hating black people because of one man is incorrect because the fact is, that was just one man, and not representative of black men in general. Hating the PT Cruiser's looks is just how you feel about it.

Just because the PT Cruiser was a hit with consumers, it still doesn't mean everyone has to like it. Its still an OPINION.

Now take this example: A lot of Americans feel that the Cadillac is a beautiful car. However, a lot of Europeans would disagree. Who is wrong? Neither.

Just a side note, while a few people may have offended you with their opinions, you were far more offensive with your insults. Nobody intended to hurt your feelings, but you did intend to hurt others. Honestly whats worse?
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:05 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
I think you missed the point. Opinions are indeed based on facts. If the facts are wrong, then so is the opinion. Opinions are always opinions, but they can indeed be wrong. Saying they can't be is a cop out to ensure you don't have to actually think.

If it's my opinion that all Pontiacs are rusty piles of crap that won't run for more than 5 minutes without breaking, is that opinion right or wrong? Would I be right or wrong in making that comment? Or can it not be proven one way or the other?

Thats not an opinion. Thats a false fact. An example of an opinion is "I dont like Pontiacs because they're ugly."
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:07 AM   #79
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Quote:
Share your opinion, but be prepared to back up your beliefs with facts.


I don't understand what you're asking for here. What sort of facts? Its a fact that the PT Cruiser is chubby. Its a fact that it has a plain flat hatch. Its a fact that the retro fenders look silly.

See I don't think those are facts. I think those are also opinions.

So why don't YOU back up your opinion that the PT Cruiser is a nice looking car with fact.
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:09 AM   #80
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Hes reacting to the PT like I do to the neon. I really dont care anymore though.
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:21 AM   #81
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jus my here...

1. Paris Hilton is a skanky bitch who is very much not un-ugly.
2. The PT Cruiser is boring. it's not ugly, it's not pretty, it's just generic. you see one driving down the street and it doesn't even register in your mind that it's even worth looking at.
3. in my opinion, chrisV is a pompous ass who needs to stop getting all worked up over trivial bull in a dumb thread that should've just died instead of being turned into a 4+ page moron-con.

yeh....btw, the aztek is an ugly car. everybody knows it's an ugly car. let the thing die in peace, for heavens sake.

also the Pontiac Sunfire gets my vote for ugliest car. everytime i see one i feel all...white-trashy.
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:26 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enron fever
yeh....btw, the aztek is an ugly car. everybody knows it's an ugly car. let the thing die in peace, for heavens sake.

Lmfao, man that gave me a good laugh
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Old 01-05-2006, 02:41 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathew
I don't understand what you're asking for here. What sort of facts? Its a fact that the PT Cruiser is chubby. Its a fact that it has a plain flat hatch. Its a fact that the retro fenders look silly.

See I don't think those are facts. I think those are also opinions.

So why don't YOU back up your opinion that the PT Cruiser is a nice looking car with fact.

I did, idiot. REPEATEDLY. In the overall sceme of things, since society dictates what is and isnt' atractive, the FACT that the PT sold out and had a waiting list based on style makes it not ugly. Compare it to the fact that the equally practical and nearly as inexpensive Aztek FAILED to sell based on it's style, and you have a set of objective FACTS as to the relative attractiveness of vehicles.

What part of this makes your small brain fail?

it isn't about pure sale figures. Tauruses sold in lkarger numbers, but there was never a waiting list, and people didn't form clubs around them based on their style. They did for the PT, which means the designer did his job!

Again, this is objective, measurable f*cking FACT. LEARN somehting about what6 the f*ck objective measurements MEAN, and in fact, spend some time learnig that design can indeed be objective. Otherwise they coun't have f*cking SCHOOLS on it!

Lastly, why is it so f*cking important to hold tightly to known insulting opinions? Just so you can f*cking say you HAVE one?

Now I AM angry, becasue you f*cksticks are intentionally trying to be obtuse and refuse to learn new goddamn ideas.


Let me give you a more personal example. I don't like spiders. I hate closeup pictures of them with all their little eyes. So when TVR designers decided to make the headlights and grillework look like a bunch of spider eyes, my gut reaction was that it was hideous. BUT, I looked at it harder with the intention of learning how the design worked, and what the designers were trying to do. TVRs have their own individual style in the market, work good, and reach the intended audience. And their buyers think they ARE attractive. Which means the designer did his job. Thus objectively they are not hideous, but in fact, fun, fast performance cars with their own unique style. I like them, and woudn't mind owning or driving one. my intelligence won out over a knee jerk reaction, and I changed my opinion to match the observable facts!

Now, why is that so hard for you closed-minded f*cks to do?
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Old 01-05-2006, 02:43 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enron fever
jus my here...

1. Paris Hilton is a skanky bitch who is very much not un-ugly.
2. The PT Cruiser is boring. it's not ugly, it's not pretty, it's just generic. you see one driving down the street and it doesn't even register in your mind that it's even worth looking at.
3. in my opinion, chrisV is a pompous ass who needs to stop getting all worked up over trivial bull in a dumb thread that should've just died instead of being turned into a 4+ page moron-con.

yeh....btw, the aztek is an ugly car. everybody knows it's an ugly car. let the thing die in peace, for heavens sake.

also the Pontiac Sunfire gets my vote for ugliest car. everytime i see one i feel all...white-trashy.


And why is it that you can state YOUR opinion, but if I state MINE, I'm a pompous ass? Maybe you're hust a f*cking hypocritical retard.

If MY opinions offends YOU enough for you to be an insulting little shit, then why is it so f*cking hard to figure that ignorant, uninformed opinions offend ME? Why is it more imoprtant to defend BEING uninformed than actually learning something? Oh yeah, it's much more valuable to be a f*cking dumbass than actually know anything

STFU, bitch.
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Old 01-06-2006, 01:39 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ChrisV
And why is it that you can state YOUR opinion, but if I state MINE, I'm a pompous ass? Maybe you're hust a f*cking hypocritical retard.

If MY opinions offends YOU enough for you to be an insulting little shit, then why is it so f*cking hard to figure that ignorant, uninformed opinions offend ME? Why is it more imoprtant to defend BEING uninformed than actually learning something? Oh yeah, it's much more valuable to be a f*cking dumbass than actually know anything

STFU, bitch.
because you aren't just stating your opinion. you're just blatantly flaming somebody for feeling different about a car than you, and demanding that they give "proof" that the car is ugly.

you're a damn fool, end of story.
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Old 01-06-2006, 01:58 AM   #86
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Wow, this has gone outta hand. 1st of all Chris isn't blatantly flaming anybody. He's just giving "his opinion" to those whose opinion of the PT is that its the ugliest thing to drive down the street. No one is flaming the PT ...oh wait...
Anyway, what Chris is doing is backing up his opinion with facts. He's adding wieght to his opinion. Backing up your opinion with , "it's my opinion and Im entitled to it" doesnt add much weight. It just shows how ignorant you really are. I agree, to many eyes including my own, the PT is not the prettiest thing to look at. But it was intended to do something and it did it right.
Oh and BTW, thi was a Flaming thread to begin with. C'mon, "uglyest car", thats already a stab at whatever car follows it.
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Old 01-06-2006, 02:04 AM   #87
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I could have swore we had a discussion on these boards before about how it was the school system to blame for the whole "It's my opinion, leave me alone" ignorance we have know a days??? About how the system switched to a less agressive teaching method in which nobody is wrong, and everybody is right.
Does anyone else remember that thread??
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Old 01-06-2006, 02:15 AM   #88
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So..

How many guys in this thread that tell newyorker he is stupid for liking his car, or for liking Neons in general, were bitching at me that "no opinion can be wrong or should be insulted?" And are in a couple prominent threads insulting HIS opinion on what he likes?



Funny thing is PontiacFan telling me that opinions can't be wrong, yet he is one of the loudest in telling newyorker that his opinions are wrong...

This is why I come down on you guys so hard. You demonstrate daily that you do feel opinions can be wrong. And you chastise people who hold opinions you don't like (like when newyorker said that out of all the car choices to build something from, he'd use a Neon) Yet the moment I say that an opinion based on mistaken information is wrong, you get all self righteous about how opinions can't be wrong.
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Old 01-06-2006, 02:16 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elchango36
I could have swore we had a discussion on these boards before about how it was the school system to blame for the whole "It's my opinion, leave me alone" ignorance we have know a days??? About how the system switched to a less agressive teaching method in which nobody is wrong, and everybody is right.
Does anyone else remember that thread??

Yeah, that was my thread, and as soon as I started saying everyone was right, you all hated it, and wanted the old ChrisV back. Well, this is it.
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Old 01-06-2006, 02:23 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enron fever
because you aren't just stating your opinion. you're just blatantly flaming somebody for feeling different about a car than you, and demanding that they give "proof" that the car is ugly.

Oh, wait, insulting someone who is being insulting is bad, but being insulting to start with isn't. This is about responding to an insult with an insult, apparently. Had I merely started a thread that was insulting, you wouldn't have a problem with it, as it would simply be my opinion, and thus you'd defend it if people insulted me in return? Having a hard time following your logic.


Sorry that asking people to have some intelligence in a discussion is a bad thing. Maybe you should post at "simpletonsRus.com"



Quote:
you're a damn fool, end of story.

And yet I still have more experience and know more than you do.

On top of that, you get mad at me for flaming someone who is being insulting, yet you are here flaming me for being insulting... BWAHAHAHAHAHA! And you think *I'M* the fool?

You're a damn hypocrite. End of story.
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