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Old 01-06-2006, 12:03 AM   #61
Wally
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Actually I have thrown in a false statement to see if people are on the ball.
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:04 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by TheFieroKid
Well seeing as how it was my instructor (an ASE Certifited mechanic and teacher) who said it I cant really quote a book can I? And the way I see it your spewing bullshit.

Trust me, he's not. You're wrong and you misunderstood your instructor.
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:09 AM   #63
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Trust me, he's not. You're wrong and you misunderstood your instructor.
Nope, thats excatly how he described it.
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:09 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally


Actually I have thrown in a false statement to see if people are on the ball.
I thought I read something that I didn't agree with, but chalked it up to a language discrepency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFieroKid
Well seeing as how it was my instructor (an ASE Certifited mechanic and teacher) who said it I cant really quote a book can I? And the way I see it your spewing bullshit.
That sounds like a pretty poor tap dance to me. As I said, if you're proud of displaying how little you actually know and are more interested in sticking to your opinion than learning, have it your way. I'm still waiting for you to explain to me why vertical engines have the same ridge at the top of the cylinder as a V engine does. After all, the piston only goes up and down.
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:14 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by TheFieroKid
Nope, thats excatly how he described it.

Then I'm never letting you or your instructor work on my vehicles. It's very basic Statics (first term Physics) that proves you wrong. Just like my example with the ladder.
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:18 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFieroKid
......
In my picture (you can tell I have no artistic talent) the red arrows show the direction of forces with in the cylinder, the green arrow shows the force direction on the piston.

In an Inline engine there is no angle for the piston to work against... so there isnít any cylinder/cylinder wall ware.

But in my experience (again only 21 years) Iíve seen I4 engines out last any V config engine out there. I currently work in an oil change (only work in Lansing) and people come in every day with all sorts of engines, the oldest 4 engines I have seen all had over 300k on them and they were all I4 engines.
Infact I was talking with a guy just yesterday who has 290k on his V6 (some ford truck) and he was telling me how the piston rings where going and he was going to have to rebuild the engine.
This observation is conductive to what I was taught by my instructor.

You can dispute it all you want, give me all your credentials, but until you show me some hard evidence and the math accompanying it (as my instructor did) I will not change my opinion on this subject and will continue to preach it.

Ok take you picture and rotate it until one of the banks is in the vertical. You now have a vertical set of pots. Would you expect a difference in the way the piston and conrod pair behave?

In so far as wear, well that's more to do with manufacture and intrinsic design than the orientation of the pistons. Four cylinder engines can be a little better belts and braced, while big engines are constantly under weight loss regimes that effect things like rigidity. There's also a lot of manufacturers who use the four as their mainstays and therefore a lot more combined development (and in the case of Japan more co operative development).
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:20 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Ok take you picture and rotate it until one of the banks is in the vertical. You now have a vertical set of pots. Would you expect a difference in the way the piston and conrod pair behave?

In so far as wear, well that's more to do with manufacture and intrinsic design than the orientation of the pistons. Four cylinder engines can be a little better belts and braced, while big engines are constantly under weight loss regimes that effect things like rigidity. There's also a lot of manufacturers who use the four as their mainstays and therefore a lot more combined development (and in the case of Japan more co operative development).
Stop it! You're making perfect sense.
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Old 01-06-2006, 02:00 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
The compression rings seal compression and the oil rings control oil and they definately contact the cylider walls. But to get back to your unenlightened previous statement, the pistons also most assuredly contact the cylinder walls. As I said before, proof that you've never been inside and engine or even have a rudimentary concept of how they operate. Think, type, submit.
The whole piston does not come in contact with the cylinder wall, but alot of it can. The piston rings come in contact with it as you already know, and if they go bad, the top of the piston can rub against the cylinder wall. Also the skirt of the piston can sometimes hit the cylinder wall sometimes, also known as piston slap.
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Old 01-06-2006, 02:57 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by nsupra27
The whole piston does not come in contact with the cylinder wall, but alot of it can. The piston rings come in contact with it as you already know, and if they go bad, the top of the piston can rub against the cylinder wall. Also the skirt of the piston can sometimes hit the cylinder wall sometimes, also known as piston slap.
Moron.

1. I never stated that the entire piston comes in contact with the cylinder wall. Although, if you ever examine a piston removed from your average old engine you'll find that the vast majority of it does... Just not all at the same time. When that happens you have at best scuffing and at worst seizure.

2. The piston skirt rides on the cylinder wall more than any other part of the piston. That is what the skirt is designed to do, it keeps the piston from rocking excessively. When there is excessive bore to piston clearance and the skirt slaps the cylinder, that is when you hear piston slap.

Before you or any of your little friends try to school me on engine internals and how they interact, you better make damn sure you know what you're talking about. That and get about 30 years and 1000+ rebuilds under your belt.
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Old 01-06-2006, 03:33 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
Before you or any of your little friends try to school me on engine internals and how they interact, you better make damn sure you know what you're talking about. That and get about 30 years and 1000+ rebuilds under your belt.



um, I don't want to start anything because I know I can't win against you hobo, but just because you do it longer doesn't mean you have more knowledge on the subject.
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Old 01-06-2006, 03:35 AM   #71
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So, by fierokid's logic; a flat engine is the worse idea possible?

And I believe that there's a couple upside down V engines in history too...
--------------
I'm curious as to how energy that heads one direction on top of the piston changes direction by the time it 'travels' through it.
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Old 01-06-2006, 03:48 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by salimander13


um, I don't want to start anything because I know I can't win against you hobo, but just because you do it longer doesn't mean you have more knowledge on the subject.
You're right, but I do still have more knowledge on the subject.
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Old 01-06-2006, 05:32 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
Moron.

1. I never stated that the entire piston comes in contact with the cylinder wall. Although, if you ever examine a piston removed from your average old engine you'll find that the vast majority of it does... Just not all at the same time. When that happens you have at best scuffing and at worst seizure.

2. The piston skirt rides on the cylinder wall more than any other part of the piston. That is what the skirt is designed to do, it keeps the piston from rocking excessively. When there is excessive bore to piston clearance and the skirt slaps the cylinder, that is when you hear piston slap.

Before you or any of your little friends try to school me on engine internals and how they interact, you better make damn sure you know what you're talking about. That and get about 30 years and 1000+ rebuilds under your belt.
I never said that you stated that the entire piston came in contact with the cylinder wall. Also that post wasn't made to contradict what you said, it was just a comment about pistons inside the cylinders.
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Old 01-06-2006, 06:03 AM   #74
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I personally prefer the V6 ,and it is smoother, the inline six is outdated technology it has been around FOREVERand then in the late 60's early 70's the V6 came around to replace it, it is not as efficient at using its hp as the V6, it does have better high end tq (barely even a noticeable amount) because the crank is heavier and when you get it going it has better momentum but off the line the heavier crank doesn't build power very fast. The V6 has a FAR lighter rotating assembly IE the crank and cams(they are half the size of the I6)that right there is a HUGE plus for the v6 if you have a I6 with a 3 foot crank weighing 50lbs and you have a v6 with a 1.5 foot crank weighing 25lbs which crank is going to require more horsepower to turn ? obviously the inline six's crank is going to require more hp the same applies to the cam, the v6 has 2 heads giving the option for a true dual exhaust for better exhaust flow, the engine itself is FAR lighter, it revs Much faster and builds better power off the line, it is able to sit farther back in the engine compartment of a car giving a better weight distribution allowing for better handling. I have probably forgottena few things, but I think I made my point. I have had this argument with my friend a hundred times, he thinks the I6 is better, the only reason he thinks it is better is because BMW uses it in the M3 instead of the V6 so it must be better he can give no other reason why, and it is a bit irritating.
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Old 01-06-2006, 06:08 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Chad5.0
I personally prefer the V6 ,and it is smoother, the inline six is outdated technology it has been around FOREVERand then in the late 60's early 70's the V6 came around to replace it, it is not as efficient at using its hp as the V6, it does have better high end tq (barely even a noticeable amount) because the crank is heavier and when you get it going it has better momentum but off the line the heavier crank doesn't build power very fast. The V6 has a FAR lighter rotating assembly IE the crank and cams(they are half the size of the I6)that right there is a HUGE plus for the v6 if you have a I6 with a 3 foot crank weighing 50lbs and you have a v6 with a 1.5 foot crank weighing 25lbs which crank is going to require more horsepower to turn ? obviously the inline six's crank is going to require more hp the same applies to the cam, the v6 has 2 heads giving the option for a true dual exhaust for better exhaust flow, the engine itself is FAR lighter, it revs Much faster and builds better power off the line, it is able to sit farther back in the engine compartment of a car giving a better weight distribution allowing for better handling. I have probably forgottena few things, but I think I made my point. I have had this argument with my friend a hundred times, he thinks the I6 is better, the only reason he thinks it is better is because BMW uses it in the M3 instead of the V6 so it must be better he can give no other reason why, and it is a bit irritating.
It's even more irritating when someone presents opinions a fact, and about half of your post is opinion. You did great for about the first five words and then it went to hell. What a damn surprise.
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