Car Forums  

Go Back   Car Forums > General Discussions > General Chat
FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-27-2006, 02:44 AM   #1
nighthawk
Part Time Active User
 
nighthawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: -
Posts: 1,651
v4 and other stuff

i was looking at the thread where you share the dumbest thing you ever heard someone say,

i was on page 15 and i saw they were talking about v4 engines,
i was wondering, why didnt these ever catch on?
they seem like good, balanced engine designs,

and also, I read something about a volkswagon V5
i really dont understand how a v5 could possibly work, 5=odd number

anyway thanks for info
__________________

"There is a big difference between being fast and powerful and just being loud and annoying."
nighthawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 03:55 AM   #2
TheFieroKid
CF Freak
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 578
Now I didnt think they can work... but someone pointed out that if the two pistions were bigger and the 3 pistons were smaller (so that they weighed the same) they would could be balanced enough to work...

But frankely I dont like the idea.
__________________
TheFieroKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 04:00 AM   #3
Cliffy
CF Loafer
 
Cliffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NE Hampshire, England, UK
Posts: 8,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFieroKid
Now I didnt think they can work... but someone pointed out that if the two pistions were bigger and the 3 pistons were smaller (so that they weighed the same) they would could be balanced enough to work...

But frankely I dont like the idea.
I think the V5 was a kinda stunt on VW's part, to see how it sold etc....Not very well was the out come I think lol. The only possible good thing was slightly improved fuel consumption over that of the V6, maybe?. I'd still choose the V6 though!
__________________


Please click here for the rules prior to posting, and here to introduce yourself!

Artwork courtesy of Gregg, aka Voda48
Cliffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 04:00 AM   #4
newyorker
MXman
 
newyorker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Philly
Posts: 5,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthawk
i was looking at the thread where you share the dumbest thing you ever heard someone say,

i was on page 15 and i saw they were talking about v4 engines,
i was wondering, why didnt these ever catch on?
they seem like good, balanced engine designs,

and also, I read something about a volkswagon V5
i really dont understand how a v5 could possibly work, 5=odd number

anyway thanks for info
I think they realized that I4 revs higher, and therefore uses less gas at lower rpm...just my opinion tho i dont know if thats true or not.
__________________
04 Mazdaspeed Miata #2373/4000: IHI, BBS, Harddog, Flyin'Miata.

newyorker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 02:10 PM   #5
Inygknok
El del Supra
 
Inygknok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 1,863
1) V4's are even heavier than I4's, due to 2 heads vs 1.

2a) I4's may be a bit longer, but why would u need something as short as a V4 in present day?

2b) I4's are compact enough for smaller cars. other than that, companies just use V6's (or in the rare case in present day, an I3 like in the Honda Insight, but i doubt that will turn into something common).

3) it's a lot cheaper to produce I4's.

4) a lot simpler to work on I4's (ever worked on a FWD V6? try taking out the rear spark plugs without getting a single scratch, and no cheating! that means no loosening the engine mounts!).

5) balancing the V4 is somewhat of a pain, specially compared to I4's.

6) VW's V5 engine was actually a VR5. the angle between the pistons were just around 15 degrees or so (like the VR6).

7) I4's are much lighter when compared to equivalent V4's.


cant think of anything else atm..... but u get the point.
__________________


Supra: To surpass or go beyond.
Inygknok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 02:17 PM   #6
Cliffy
CF Loafer
 
Cliffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NE Hampshire, England, UK
Posts: 8,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inygknok
4) a lot simpler to work on I4's (ever worked on a FWD V6? try taking out the rear spark plugs without getting a single scratch, and no cheating! that means no loosening the engine mounts!).
The only V6 I've ever really had trouble with the back plugs ......all plugs actually lol....on is VW's VR6 engine!...and possibly Vauxhalls Vectra V6. Other than those two, a bendy spark plug socket usually works a treat!
__________________


Please click here for the rules prior to posting, and here to introduce yourself!

Artwork courtesy of Gregg, aka Voda48
Cliffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 02:22 PM   #7
Inygknok
El del Supra
 
Inygknok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 1,863
its not everyday that u remember to bring extra spark plug sockets though. sometimes i even forget to bring all the extensions and i just have to make do!

try working on some of the american cars, like a pontiac grand prix. wont get scratched on that one, but its annoying to take out the back ones.

some chryslers even have screws coming out of the firewall (from the dashboard i guess) and they are ever so wonderfully placed in the area u need to manouver your hand in to get to the plugs.
__________________


Supra: To surpass or go beyond.
Inygknok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 02:25 PM   #8
Cliffy
CF Loafer
 
Cliffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NE Hampshire, England, UK
Posts: 8,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inygknok
its not everyday that u remember to bring extra spark plug sockets though. sometimes i even forget to bring all the extensions and i just have to make do!

try working on some of the american cars, like a pontiac grand prix. wont get scratched on that one, but its annoying to take out the back ones.

some chryslers even have screws coming out of the firewall (from the dashboard i guess) and they are ever so wonderfully placed in the area u need to manouver your hand in to get to the plugs.
I only have bendy spark plug sockets, small and large....cant go wrong with them!
__________________


Please click here for the rules prior to posting, and here to introduce yourself!

Artwork courtesy of Gregg, aka Voda48
Cliffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 02:43 PM   #9
Inygknok
El del Supra
 
Inygknok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 1,863
how much did they cost ya? craftsman i hope?

i just have 2 of the straight ones.
__________________


Supra: To surpass or go beyond.
Inygknok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 02:54 PM   #10
Cliffy
CF Loafer
 
Cliffy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NE Hampshire, England, UK
Posts: 8,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inygknok
how much did they cost ya? craftsman i hope?

i just have 2 of the straight ones.
They were Snap~On...and they cost quite a bit (being SO)...cant remember exacly how much though!
__________________


Please click here for the rules prior to posting, and here to introduce yourself!

Artwork courtesy of Gregg, aka Voda48
Cliffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 04:12 PM   #11
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
the Subaru boxer 4 and the VW aircooled 4 are ALSO V4s, just at 180 degrees. Both of them have two heads, and neither weigh more than I4s (in fact, the VW engine weighs less than most).

The Ford/SAAB V4 was extremely tiny and didn't weigh much at all. It was also a 60 degree V4 so it was easy to reach the spark plugs. BUT, if it was a modern DOHC V4, it could have the spark plugs right on the top of the head and easy to reach anyhow.

But, it does have an increased width compared to an I4, though it's considerably shorter (effectively 2.5 cylinders long not including drive belts and accessories).

Still, it's tiny:

__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 04:23 PM   #12
Inygknok
El del Supra
 
Inygknok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 1,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
the Subaru boxer 4 and the VW aircooled 4 are ALSO V4s, just at 180 degrees. Both of them have two heads, and neither weigh more than I4s (in fact, the VW engine weighs less than most).

The Ford/SAAB V4 was extremely tiny and didn't weigh much at all. It was also a 60 degree V4 so it was easy to reach the spark plugs. BUT, if it was a modern DOHC V4, it could have the spark plugs right on the top of the head and easy to reach anyhow.

But, it does have an increased width compared to an I4, though it's considerably shorter (effectively 2.5 cylinders long not including drive belts and accessories).

Still, it's tiny:

you're right on the boxer engines thing..... though i dont think people would get used to saying "V4 at 180 degrees" instead of just saying a boxer or a flat or an H. u know wat i mean.


i get the fact that the engine u showed is tiny (damn, too tiny), but wouldnt an equivalent V4 weigh more than an I4?


also, the commodity for the spark plugs does depend on the car manufacturers designing the car...... "handle friendly" (best term i could come up with).
__________________


Supra: To surpass or go beyond.
Inygknok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 07:03 PM   #13
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inygknok
i get the fact that the engine u showed is tiny (damn, too tiny), but wouldnt an equivalent V4 weigh more than an I4?

That V4, in iron, only weighed 205 lbs. Ford also made an all iron "essex" version for the first gen Capris in 1.7 and 2 liter form that weighed in at 325 lbs, also all iron. These were pushrod V4s, so they compare favorable with , say the MGB 1.8 liter pushrod iron I4 and the 2.3 liter Pinto SOHC I4. the Honda B18, with aluminum head, weighs in at 318.
__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 07:17 PM   #14
Inygknok
El del Supra
 
Inygknok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 1,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
That V4, in iron, only weighed 205 lbs. Ford also made an all iron "essex" version for the first gen Capris in 1.7 and 2 liter form that weighed in at 325 lbs, also all iron. These were pushrod V4s, so they compare favorable with , say the MGB 1.8 liter pushrod iron I4 and the 2.3 liter Pinto SOHC I4. the Honda B18, with aluminum head, weighs in at 318.
probably weigh more due to beefier internals?
__________________


Supra: To surpass or go beyond.
Inygknok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2006, 07:22 PM   #15
ChrisV
The Big Meaney
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: People's Republic of Maryland
Posts: 3,714
Not necessarily, as the way a V engine is cast makes it pretty strong, to start with. And as stubby as the V4 is, there woldn't be much longitudinal flexing like there is in an inline engine.

Part of the reason they fell out of favor you alluded to before. They tend to be harder to balance, and even with a separate balance shaft, the V4s were and are not very smooth engines. A complaint often lobbed at the Subies, as well.
__________________
I'm not mean. You're just a wuss.



www.midatlantic7s.com
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:03 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2002 - 2011 Car Forums. All rights reserved.