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Old 01-25-2006, 02:02 PM   #16
vlc92189
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the way i see it is.. there relaible.. ( bmw.. mbenz) but im personally a fan of the gti's and pegueot
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Old 01-25-2006, 02:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngluvakov(euro)
Chris, please tell me examples of rally drivers with automatic shifters...


Tell me why you think shifting is any more than 10% of driving/ Or are you saying that even if you are steering, braking, accellerating, placing a car at teh apex, feint steering around a dirt corner, etc, your not DRIVING unless upui move a little lever a couple inches?

Tell you what, take the clutch pedal out of a car and make it an automatic. See how much control you have driving down the road. I'd be willing to be that you could still corner, brake, stay in your lane, accellerate, and get where you were going.

Now, take the brake pedal out, or the steering wheel. See how far you get.

Moving the clutch pedal is a VERY small part of being in control. Ask anyone racing fast go karts that don't have shifters at all. Fun AND in control.

If shifting is all that driving is about, and all the fun of driving, then as I've said, put a shifter and a clutch pedal on your easy chair at home and shift to your heart's content. You'll get all the "fun" and "control" of driving, without having to worry about fuel costs or having someoen hit you. me? I'll be out on the road, in full control and having a huge amount of fun, in ANY car. I swear that people are of the opinion that if you have an automatic, yor'e not even going to make it to your destination. Doe sthe third pedal control where you steer to? What lane you're in? How close to the apex you come? how close to the car ahead of you you get? What roads you drive on? What exactly are you defining as "being in control" of the car, if it's defined by pushing that clutch pedal in every once in a while?

As I've said before, I've had a lot of fast cars with automatics and a lot of fast cars with manuals. I simply haven't seen the reduction in control or fun that people talk about UNLESS I was in a car that wasn't fun to start with (like a Hyundai Accent or Renault Alliance).
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:03 AM   #18
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I thought I had a really great post. Turns out it was me rambling about how fast and fun real go karts are. Sooooo........
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:46 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scolson
I thought I had a really great post. Turns out it was me rambling about how fast and fun real go karts are. Sooooo........

Mind you, I'm not talking shifter karts, I'm talking F1 Boston, Grand Prix karts, indoor, 45mph kart tracks around the world.

Fast, fun, control, need a lot of driving skill, aqnd not a shifter in sight.

The main point is that most of what driving is about has nothing to do with shifting, so saying the difference between real drivers and non drivers is a clutch pedal and a little lever, is ridiculous.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:57 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
As I've said before, I've had a lot of fast cars with automatics and a lot of fast cars with manuals. I simply haven't seen the reduction in control or fun that people talk about UNLESS I was in a car that wasn't fun to start with (like a Hyundai Accent or Renault Alliance).
I take strong exception to that statement. I have two Hyundai Accents that my son and I race each other with in a field on the back of my property. This is not for money, trophies or points, only for mindless fun after a hard week. Did I mention that they're both automatics and the clutches/bands are burned out in the forward gears so all of our racing is done in reverse... And usually in the dark?

I may not be a redneck, but I sure know how to act like one. Yes kids, Hyundais CAN be fun even when they're out of control.
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Old 01-26-2006, 01:46 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pik_d
true rally drivers are among "real drivers", as they are both real, and drivers...

but i still see no reason why he wants chris to give him that kind of example.

either way, i'd like to know his definition of "real driver".

So I guess next time someone starts up up about ¼ mile times, you will make a point of mentioning that people running auto transmissions are not real drivers either.

And I'm also guessing Subaru's variable torque system is not for real drivers either. And their WRC six speed semi auto box is not real either.
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Old 01-26-2006, 01:50 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
I take strong exception to that statement. I have two Hyundai Accents that my son and I race each other with in a field on the back of my property. This is not for money, trophies or points, only for mindless fun after a hard week. Did I mention that they're both automatics and the clutches/bands are burned out in the forward gears so all of our racing is done in reverse... And usually in the dark?

I may not be a redneck, but I sure know how to act like one. Yes kids, Hyundais CAN be fun even when they're out of control.
In that case, a Ford Fiesta would be fun!
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Old 01-26-2006, 02:58 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
So I guess next time someone starts up up about ¼ mile times, you will make a point of mentioning that people running auto transmissions are not real drivers either.

And I'm also guessing Subaru's variable torque system is not for real drivers either. And their WRC six speed semi auto box is not real either.
me? huh?

ngluvakov(euro) is the one who said that manuals are for real drivers, or something to that effect.
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Old 01-26-2006, 05:42 AM   #24
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Sorry, clicked on the wrong quote button
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Old 01-26-2006, 03:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwhobo
I take strong exception to that statement. I have two Hyundai Accents that my son and I race each other with in a field on the back of my property. This is not for money, trophies or points, only for mindless fun after a hard week. Did I mention that they're both automatics and the clutches/bands are burned out in the forward gears so all of our racing is done in reverse... And usually in the dark?

I may not be a redneck, but I sure know how to act like one. Yes kids, Hyundais CAN be fun even when they're out of control.


lol! But would they be MORE fun with crappy Hyundai manual transmissions? My Hyundai Accent was an automatic and it woudl have been no more fun with a manual...

oh, and it isn't the fact that it's a Hyundai that makes what you're doing fun...
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Old 01-26-2006, 05:26 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
lol! But would they be MORE fun with crappy Hyundai manual transmissions? My Hyundai Accent was an automatic and it woudl have been no more fun with a manual...

oh, and it isn't the fact that it's a Hyundai that makes what you're doing fun...
No, stupidity and occasionaly alcohol is what makes it fun.
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Old 01-27-2006, 03:46 PM   #27
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Chris, Chris… I have feeling that if I would said other way (that automatic gearbox is great), you would oppose me. That is something you do all the time. I like your posts when you use experience and common sense, but when you post just to oppose. By aggressive style of typing and lie about some “experience” that you had, you can’t be right. Then you find some most eccentric example and stick to it like it was ultimate example as for these kart racings. You have gone way out of subject here. While subject was clear, where you could simply post message as ones at the beginning, you didn’t. But after a while, when you saw a chance to feed your ego, and start a fight, you showed up. As for your information, most elite competitions in car racing have manual transmission cars. Even F1 has it. That is relevant, not some god knows what kind of competition that you are writing about. Manual transmission cars are lighter than automatic transmission positively affecting fuel consumption. With experienced driver you can have smoother ride with manual transmission than you can have with automatic one. It is a bit subjective how you drive it, but with a practice you can get to the level when you drive like race driver. For example, when you go into curve that requires slowing down, by slowing you get to the point where torque is not optimum to start accelerating right after the apex of turn, so you can use (translated from my language without adaptation because I don’t know the right word) “mid throttle” where you press clutch, gas pedal to the rev level that suites current speed and lower gear rev level(1-2 month of practice makes it easy), switch to lower gear, resulting coming out from the apex of curve on the optimum for switching back to higher gear, while you have accelerated also optimally. If, you have misjudged your speed, it is easier to slow using engine in lower gear. There you can see that you have gained much more power at the end of curve, than you could possibly have with automatic, while you haven’t lost traction time. Same situation with automatic gearbox goes like this – You get to the curve, slow down and two things can happen:
1) You are slowing down, but mechanics haven’t shift to the lower gear, so you have very negative torque after apex, so you can’t accelerate optimally.
2) Engine shifts to lower gear, electronic / mechanics take more time to adjust revs/speed/gear – you lose power and speed, then when you start accelerating again engine shifts gear up, so you lose time/power/speed – AGAIN.
Chris, I am mechanical engineer, I think about what I say, and I try not to have prejudices, about anything. Believe me, if by any chance, automatic gearbox would be better, I would defend it even more than you with your infantile – aggressive approach to subject. I like you as a person, but try not to argue, when you haven’t enough (real) arguments. I beg you not to step of this thread’s subject.
No hard feelings, wish you all the best.
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Old 01-27-2006, 05:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngluvakov(euro)
Chris, Chris… I have feeling that if I would said other way (that automatic gearbox is great), you would oppose me. That is something you do all the time. I like your posts when you use experience and common sense, but when you post just to oppose. By aggressive style of typing and lie about some “experience” that you had, you can’t be right.

LIES?? WFT???????????????????

If I were here just to oppose you we wouldn't have had such good email conversations about your 3D work. YOU made a statement and I tried not to respond. You then responded with another extreme statement designed specifically to start a fight with ME! Here you are insulting me when I did NOT insult you at all in this thread until NOW!



Quote:
Then you find some most eccentric example and stick to it like it was ultimate example as for these kart racings.

YOU said that manual was the "true way of the driver," and then said that RALLY DRIVERS were your example, as though RALLY drivers aren't an extreme singular example themselves! AND YOU DID IT FIRST, YOU IGNORANT POS! rallye drivers have NOTHING TO DO WITH STREET driving. Which is why I used karts. Do you or do you not have contol of the kart, and have fun driving them?



Quote:
You have gone way out of subject here. While subject was clear, where you could simply post message as ones at the beginning, you didn’t. But after a while, when you saw a chance to feed your ego, and start a fight, you showed up.

No, I was going to respond but before I had the chance YOU made a stupid statement that nothing to do with the subject. And even though I was not GOING to respond, YOU made another statment that had no bearing on teh subject and was ALSO extreme. I'm not here 24/7 so somethimes yes, sometimes threads actually get pretty fart along before I have a chance to see them. Did you think of that? No, like everythig else, opinion is more important than knowing anything to you.

AND, I NEVER INSULTED YOU IN MY PREVIOUS POSTS IN THIS THREAD!!!!! I NEVER STARTED A FGIGHT!!! Yet here you are calling me a liar and infantile! YOU ARE THE BITCH, YOU ASSHAT! NOW I'M MAD AND NOW I'M INSULTING YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
As for your information, most elite competitions in car racing have manual transmission cars. Even F1 has it. That is relevant, not some god knows what kind of competition that you are writing about.




What the **** does F1 have relevance to street cars? F1 has single seats, carbon fiber monocoque, regulated displacement and regulated tire sizes. They also have huge wings and ground effects, as well as running on non automotive fuel. F1 is not road cars! Talk about your extreme examples...


But let's explore this a bit, since you seem to have so much experience. Do you know WHY road racers and rally cars have manuals? In the beginning, there WERE no automatics. When automatics were developed and mass produced, they were for luxury cars, daily drivers, and they were heavy and sloppy. By that time, road racing was laready nearly 50 years old!

Automatics use planetary gearsets, unlike the hypoid gearsets of conventional manuals. gear changes are accomplished by hydralically changing which of th eplanetary gearsets mesh, and then applying pressure on internal bands and clutch packs. manual gearboxes use sliding shafts with meshing hypoid gears of different ratios. Why is this important?

Planetary gearsets are complex, and take up a lot of space in the gearbox. There are fewer ratios in the same size gearbox because of this. Small, high rpm engines narrow powerbands up high need more ratios to keep them in their powerband. And small, high revving engines with narrow powerbands are what most road racers have had over the decades. Those kinds of engines are very sensitive to not only the weight of the car, but the kind of track they are running on. Heavier cars need different ratios than lighter cars, short tracks need different gears than long tracks, hilly tracks need different gear ratios than flat tracks, and many tracks are a combination of all of that that need special gear ratios too.

A gearbox manufacturer like ZF, Hewland, Getrag, Coletti, etc can make one gearbox, a couple bellhousings for different engines, and thousands of gearsets to match any engine in any car to any track. And it only takes a few minutes at the track during practice for a team to set up the transmission to match their particular combination. And if a gear goes bad, they can swap it out pretty easily. This is extremely important in small sports cars. And it's nearly impossible to do with planetary gearsets in automatics.

THAT'S why road racers and rallyists us manuals, not becaeu they are teh way of the true driver....

Large engine cars with a lot of torque don't need as many ratios, and don't need as many different sets, as the engine makes more power than anyone needs for most low speed corners and short straights. And drag racers want the consistency and speed of an automatic. Taking a large automatic that is tuned for smooth shifts and luxury, using a smaller torque converter that locks up at a particular rpm, higher pressre valve bodies that put more pressure on the bands for zero slippage and quicker shifting makes a big engine car with an automatic quicker AND more efficient. And turbo cars can take advantage of the fact that you don't have to let up on the throttle during a shift, thus continuing to make boost and power THROUGH the shift. (you can do that with a manual, but you run the very real risk of blowing a synchro, the trans, or at least missing the next gear).

This is why top manufactures are trying to get the advantages of the automatic (faster, quicker shifts, more consistency, no missed shifts, no blowing up the trans shifting too fast) with the advantages of the manual (more available ratios) and going with paddle shifting setups. the driver only has to flick a finger to make teh gearbox shift up or down, leaving them able to concentrate on teh REAL acts of driving, knowing when to turn, where to turn, when to slow, when to accellerate, and how to get around other cars.



Quote:
Manual transmission cars are lighter than automatic transmission positively affecting fuel consumption.


Oh, come on. In a 2000-3000 lb car, the difference is MAYBE 25 lbs, which isn't enough to even be noticed. And a torque converter is lighter than an iron flywheel/clutch/pressure plate assembly.


Quote:
With experienced driver you can have smoother ride with manual transmission than you can have with automatic one.

I know you don't meen "ride" as that is the suspension's job. But drive? Ride with a person in a BMW or Mercedes with an automatic and in one with a manual. The manual driver will ALWAYS be less smooth. You sinply can't let off the throttle, shift, and let the clutch out as smooth as you think you are from the driver's seat. Watch a passenger with you next time and see their head go back and forth when you shift. Even when shifting smoothly. And then ride in a race car. NO ONE is trying to shift smoothly.


Quote:
It is a bit subjective how you drive it, but with a practice you can get to the level when you drive like race driver.

Again, a race driver NEVERE shifts smooth. That's not what they are trying to do. They are trying to shift FAST, and it will always be harsh. Dude, if you were here, you'd see that I can outshift you, and have for decades. You want to call that a lie, go ahead if it makes you sleep easier at night. I have the trophies here.





Quote:
Same situation with automatic gearbox goes like this – You get to the curve, slow down and two things can happen:
1) You are slowing down, but mechanics haven’t shift to the lower gear, so you have very negative torque after apex, so you can’t accelerate optimally.

Have you ever thought of actually moving the lever manually? That's what we do with automatics when we race them. Hell, when we put in the shift kits that change the band pressure and hydralics, the trans shifts instantly to whatever gear we want it to be in without slipping OR having to let off the throttle.

[quote]2) Engine shifts to lower gear, electronic / mechanics take more time to adjust revs/speed/gear – you lose power and speed, then when you start accelerating again engine shifts gear up, so you lose time/power/speed – AGAIN.[/quopte]

The engine mechanics don't take any time to adjust. I dont' know whare you get THIS theory from, but it' doesn't match reality. Have you ever driven a car like this:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cvetters3/rex1.MPG

I don't think so. You want to call me a liar again, but I HAVE MORE REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE THAN YOU EVER WILL!!!!




Quote:
Chris, I am mechanical engineer, I think about what I say, and I try not to have prejudices, about anything. Believe me, if by any chance, automatic gearbox would be better, I would defend it even more than you with your infantile – aggressive approach to subject.

Oh, knock of the "I'm a superior engineer and if you disagree with me, you're infantile" bullshit. You haven't got any goddamn real world experience, just a mass of theory.


Quote:
I like you as a person, but try not to argue, when you haven’t enough (real) arguments. I beg you not to step of this thread’s subject.
No hard feelings, wish you all the best.

YOU STEPPED OFF THIS THREAD'S SUBJECT TO START WITH!!!!

Quote:
I never even had a slightest doubt about manuals vs. automatic, because manual is the way of true drivers…

That statement right there. Had zero to do with European cars, and I said I wasn't going to argue (you know, the "must bite tongue" post?) But you had to escalate it yourself in response! So don't pin this on me, you revisionist ASSCLOWN!
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Old 01-27-2006, 07:32 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
LIES?? WFT???????????????????
Blah blah blah yadda yadda blah blah
YOU STEPPED OFF THIS THREAD'S SUBJECT TO START WITH!!!!



That statement right there. Had zero to do with European cars, and I said I wasn't going to argue (you know, the "must bite tongue" post?) But you had to escalate it yourself in response! So don't pin this on me, you revisionist ASSCLOWN!
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Old 01-27-2006, 10:16 PM   #30
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The poor old slushbox really comes in for a hiding on occasions doesn't it.

Still, I bet there are a lot of engineers and "real" drivers out there that have one in their daily drives. Actually I lie..... it seems the only real drivers are F1 competitors and there isn't many of them to start with.
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