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Old 02-07-2006, 08:16 AM   #1
elchango36
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Do Brits really dislike the Yankee Vette?

For example
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Old 02-07-2006, 08:46 AM   #2
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lol I like how he pushes the back of the vette in.
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Old 02-07-2006, 11:47 AM   #3
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Now I just know ChrisV is gonna launch for me with some technical reasoning for what I'm about to say......But LEAF SPRINGS?......Buses use them for crying out loud lol. I know they used them on older Vettes (I remember Clarkson driving one in an old video.......and complaining lol), but you'd have thought they'd learned by now!

You guys sure do like Topgear though!
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Old 02-07-2006, 01:48 PM   #4
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What's wrong with leaf springs? I think I can cover this one ChrisV

The Corvette uses an extremely lightweight composite monoleaf that is about as high tech as suspension components get. By mounting it on the car in the center of the "leaf," the spring actually carries it's own weight, which is better for suspension response. It weights A LOT LESS than coil springs. One leaf replaces two coils. The two coil springs weigh 3 times as much as the one leaf. Additionally the leaf is placed at the bottom of the car so that in addition to removing weight you lower the CG.

2nd...traditional buggy leave springs were multi leaves and were used as suspension arms as well as springs, which was bad due to being inherently flexible. Plus they had friction as the leaves rubbed against each other. The Corvette's monoleaf only has olne job to do: be a spring. That's what makes it unlike any other leaf spring suspension of old cars.

3rd... you really think coil springs are some sort of new development?

Why doesn't everyone use it?

-Engineers like to stick with what they know. Lots of suspension engineers are familiar with using coil springs. They could experiment with leaves if they wanted or they could stick with coils and get the job done.

-Perception. Just like pushrods, the leaf spring as a stigma attached to it. The reasons for the stigma are legit (key component to heavy and typically poor handling suspension). However the reality is the sum of the older parts was the problem, not a specific part of it. In the older buggy spring type setups (liek the rears of older cars) the leafe spring was not just the spring, but all of the suspension. the Corvette is actually a doal A arm suspension that has one half of a high tech composite leaf as the spring, and that's all teh leaf does.

Coil race springs are not car specific. You select rates, diameters, length etc but you donít have a specific spring for a specific car. If you want to order a custom spring Hypercoil will wind it to your specifications on the same machine they use for the next custom spring. A custom Porsche, Formula Ford and LMP car spring can all be made on the same machine. By the time the C6 evolves into a C6-R (they donít start off with a production Corvette) the suspension geometry is so different that they couldnít just mount a C6 leaf spring. Itís far too expensive to have a few custom leaf springs tooled up (you would have to buy the tooling as well as the springs) so they use readily available coil springs.

This type of universal tooling isnít availible for the composite leaf spring. Only the Vette currently uses the spring so you are making a Vette only part. This seriously reduces the market for aftermarket composite leaf springs (still there are after market leaf springs available for the Vette). The business case for custom equipment to make Vette springs is harder to justify since itís a smaller market.

In reviews, such as between the Corvette and the Porsche, the reviewers are using the stigma as fact. They still equate the leaf with old style buggy leaf suspension and look for reasons to call it out, even if they have to make up those reasons. The differences in the car's "feel" have nothing to do with the spring material, but with shock/spring rates and with car layout (the Porsche is heavily rear biased, the Corvette is evenly balanced, but heavy). But since the dual A arms of the Corvette have a single composite monoleaf half attached to it at the outer end, those reviewers think that the "stoneage leaf spring suspension" is sub par in comparison,and to blame for the differences in feel. It could be tires and tire pressures. It could be in alignment specs, or A arm geometry, or in the bushings in the steering. Assuming it's the composite monoleaf because you equate it with old style buggy springs is ludicrous, but magazine reviewers will do that.

I'm surprised the Z06 was under the Evo...
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Old 02-07-2006, 01:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffy
Now I just know ChrisV is gonna launch for me with some technical reasoning for what I'm about to say......But LEAF SPRINGS?......Buses use them for crying out loud lol. I know they used them on older Vettes (I remember Clarkson driving one in an old video.......and complaining lol), but you'd have thought they'd learned by now!

You guys sure do like Topgear though!

Chris covered it. You're a moron if you think that a single, composite monoleaf that weighs less than a coil and has a lower center of gravity, has anything to do with what Buses and prams use. That composite monoleaf is probably the highest tech bit of suspension (outside of active suspension) on any car in the market, EVER.
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Old 02-07-2006, 02:02 PM   #6
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Hey ChrisV have you ever thought that Chris Knows might be your love child?
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Old 02-07-2006, 02:04 PM   #7
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Hey ChrisV have you ever thought that Chris Knows might be your love child?
You're jealous because you don't have my copying skills
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Old 02-07-2006, 02:15 PM   #8
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You're jealous because you don't have my copying skills
What the heck??? You beat me to catching you in the act!! You moron, confessing like that, I'm supposed to tell everyone!
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Old 02-07-2006, 02:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
Chris covered it. You're a moron if you think that a single, composite monoleaf that weighs less than a coil and has a lower center of gravity, has anything to do with what Buses and prams use. That composite monoleaf is probably the highest tech bit of suspension (outside of active suspension) on any car in the market, EVER.
Did I say anything about the weight issue?....I was thinking more along the lines of why the hell they're not really used anymore. IMO, you cant go wrong with a nice modern setup.....And ChrisK, I know coill springs aint a new development. But you're telling me that they dont offer better ride quality?
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Old 02-07-2006, 03:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_knows
You're jealous because you don't have my copying skills

lol! Nice.
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Old 02-07-2006, 04:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffy
Did I say anything about the weight issue?....I was thinking more along the lines of why the hell they're not really used anymore. IMO, you cant go wrong with a nice modern setup.....And ChrisK, I know coill springs aint a new development. But you're telling me that they dont offer better ride quality?

The problem, Cliffy, is that you eqate a single, low mounted monoleaf with multi leave buggy springs. They are not the same. The old style leafs served as suspension mounting points, locating arms AND springs. As such, they did a bad job of ALL of it.

Most sports cars went to coils simply because it was easy to make lots of different sets at different rates, heights, and diameters with very little change to the tooling. So a company like Eibach can wind springs for all sorts of different cars and conditions on the same machine cheaply. And someone can swap it out for a different set easily.

The composite monoleaf is expensive, and you don't get to change rates easily. Only one company can make them right now, so there isn't a wide range of choices. But again, you're an idiot if you think that the coil is more modern. It's not. Learn it.

As for ride, the composite monoleaf has one job to do: springing. It doesn't do suspension locating, it doesn't do DAMPING, which is where ride most quality comes in. In fact, in a coil over setup where the coil is not riding vertical, it is imparting it's own side loading on the shock, which can indeed cause binding and WORSE ride quality. The monoloeaf won't do that.

If you converted the Corvette's double A arms to coils, you'd increase the overall weight, increase the CG (from that weight being higher) increase the UNSPRUNG weight, and possibly increase ride harshness due to side loading. All to say you don't have a leaf spring? The only reason to do that was to gain the advantage of easy swapability to different rates for different tracks. And since racing suspension software is designed around coils, rac engineers understand them and can set them up for different tracks easier. That's why the racing Corvettes went back to coils. Not because leafs are not "modern" enough.
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Old 02-07-2006, 04:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
The problem, Cliffy, is that you eqate a single, low mounted monoleaf with multi leave buggy springs. They are not the same. The old style leafs served as suspension mounting points, locating arms AND springs. As such, they did a bad job of ALL of it.

Most sports cars went to coils simply because it was easy to make lots of different sets at different rates, heights, and diameters with very little change to the tooling. So a company like Eibach can wind springs for all sorts of different cars and conditions on the same machine cheaply. And someone can swap it out for a different set easily.

The composite monoleaf is expensive, and you don't get to change rates easily. Only one company can make them right now, so there isn't a wide range of choices. But again, you're an idiot if you think that the coil is more modern. It's not. Learn it.

As for ride, the composite monoleaf has one job to do: springing. It doesn't do suspension locating, it doesn't do DAMPING, which is where ride most quality comes in. In fact, in a coil over setup where the coil is not riding vertical, it is imparting it's own side loading on the shock, which can indeed cause binding and WORSE ride quality. The monoloeaf won't do that.

If you converted the Corvette's double A arms to coils, you'd increase the overall weight, increase the CG (from that weight being higher) increase the UNSPRUNG weight, and possibly increase ride harshness due to side loading. All to say you don't have a leaf spring? The only reason to do that was to gain the advantage of easy swapability to different rates for different tracks. And since racing suspension software is designed around coils, rac engineers understand them and can set them up for different tracks easier. That's why the racing Corvettes went back to coils. Not because leafs are not "modern" enough.
Thanks for that, Chris. I'm not going to argue with you, because you are right. I guess I've just always associated leaf springs with HGV's and busses etc. I understand that ride quality has more to do with Damping, but surely leaf springs dont help matters? The reason I say this is because from what I've read or heard, Corvettes have always had a hard ride to them, rather than alot of other American cars' boat like handling (Again, only what I've heard, I dont think I've driven an American car, other than some of those sold here)
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Old 02-07-2006, 05:51 PM   #13
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That's the shocks AND that they use stiff springs. But ride in a road race car with coils. They ride excessively harsh. And what about those coilover cars you see running around bouncing like they have no suspension at all? My RX7 with Tokiko coils was harder riding than a stock Corvette.

ALL a spring does is force the suspension down by "springing" against the chassis. Doesn't matter if the spring is pushing or pulling on the A arm, it's doing the same job. Harshness is based on the rate vs mass, and the damping effect of the shocks/struts. The Corvette uses very stiff shocks and progressive, but stiff springs. It would use the same rates if it were fitted with coils.
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Old 02-07-2006, 09:50 PM   #14
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lol! Nice.
The funny thing is that no one noticed

I remembered there was a thread about this, and figured it would help the situation
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Old 02-07-2006, 10:06 PM   #15
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Just a quick question if anyone owns/test driven the Z06, is it really that hard to shift or was he exagerating a lot?
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