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Old 07-07-2006, 09:05 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bronxie
My answer to you is the 2007 SL550, along with all the other vehicles in its class. The MSRP is even lower than the carrera4s cabriolet, and it is jam-packed with luxury amenities and features.

(My dad has a 2004 sl500 and it is even loaded with them)

Now I DO understand that some luxury features add weight to the car and it's likely porsche wants to keep the weight down for more responsive performance...................................

its bound to be loaded, its a merc!!!
and yes, things like abs, cruise control, even the smallest things will slow it down, thats why the SLR is slower than the carrera GT
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Old 07-07-2006, 10:42 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by elchango36
I wish I had a gif of Jeremy Clarkson poking the Corvette's rear end as it popped in and out. Go GM build quality.
I remember that well, and agree with him, lol, I seem to recall my coments weren't appreciated by some of the members here though, lol.

Okay, as for Porsche/Audi. Bronxie, to be honest I think the responses you've received so far are easing you in to CF quite gently, believe me. Those opinions on Porsche were extreamly narrow minded though, for example, as Newspeak stated, some Porsches have performance figures to match alot of Ferraris, yet have smaller engines, you simply cant base a whole opinion on a car merely from its engine size....unless you're talking about a small car in the first place, where engine size does matter! An d in my opinion, by saying you were talking more about the Boxter in your initial rant just says to me that you can see that you're wrong, and are trying to dig yourself out of that hole you're in, as that post didn't seem like you were talking about a car that costs what a Boxter does!

As for luxury equipment, what would you honestly like? I'm sure standard kit is as reasonable as any performance cars. Climate control, Electric windows, electric seats, leather/heated seats. I'm sure even such items as Sat Nav are given as standard on some Porsches, too! I do understand to an extent what you're saying, but I'm inclind to look in BMW's direction as far as a lacklustre list of standard kit goes on it's lesser models, rather than Porsche. As for Audi, you get what you pay for, full stop. If you dont want the 1.8T engine, pay a bit more for the 3.2-litre engine, lets not be forgetting that Audi isn't really a luxury brand, hence why their standard kit doesn't always stretch to leather upholstry, to be honest, their velour is just as comfy! Other than that, standard kit often stretches to Climate Control (even on 1996 models), Sat Nav, Electric front & rear windows, electric seats and electric mirrors.

So, I think we've addressed the issues raised, would you not agree?
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:25 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Bronxie
I attribute that to the fact that most consumers are ignorant and this allows automakers to take advantage of them. Most consumers just don't know shit.

Has zero to do with why exotic cars and small run sports cars cost what they do. Ever look into the economics of volume runs of any product?

Quote:
I realize that the cars are made for different purposes and different consumers, but why should that affect the price? Look strictly at what you're getting... and then it should be pretty clear as to why the porsches are rip-offs.

I do look "strictly at what yore' getting" the differnce is I know quit a bit about how cars are made, and what it takes to make cars that do what these do. I know Porshce's arent' ripoffs, but it woudl take more time than I have to explain why. In fact, I've learned it by paying attention to EVERY car over the last 30+ years. If you can't "get it" from what's already been explained to you in this thread, then yore 'a closed mided fool with no clue. And I can't be any nicer than that about it.

Quote:
Why not the corvette z06 then? You can get that for about 65k and it is more powerful than most all porsches, including the carrera 4s cabriolet... That has a historic reputation just as well does it not? And it's not a piece of crap unreliable car like all other chevrolets.

Two things... the Corvette shares componennts with lesser Chevrolets. the engie architecture is shared with teh truck lines (even teh Z06 uses basically a modded LS series engine and that tooling ahas been paid for). Porsche uses almost completely unique parts, and the engines are ONLY used in Porshces. Porsche is a smaller company than GM, and the production runs are smaller. that transliates DIRECTLY into higher costs per part. And when the parts are higher quality to begin with (and as much as I love Corvettes, the molded fiberglass bodies and more plastic interiors cost less to make then the Porsche parts. Period)... If you're a retard that ONLY looks at hp per dollar, than ANY new car is a total rip off, as I can make a 600 hp engine with 700 lb ft of torque, for under 2 grand total, and put it into a $500 used car.


Quote:
What I am talking about is comparisons in the market. When comparing the porsche to any other car that's similar, the porsche is grossly over-priced for the benefits. You are saying that because people are stupid enough to buy it that it is worth the money. It's not. It's still a rip-off. What makes a car expensive (or rather what should) is A. the engine/performance and B. the luxury of it.

That's utterly simplistic and puts you at a 13 year old's mentality about cars. Period. The fact that you keep arguing it proves that you're just getting used to testosterone flowing though tyour body and think power is everything. It's not. Luxury featuyres isn't everything. Exclusivity, quality, production costs, history, overall ability, and more all factor in.
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Old 07-07-2006, 03:30 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by elchango36
I wish I had a gif of Jeremy Clarkson poking the Corvette's rear end as it popped in and out. Go GM build quality.


Yeah, that is one if the things that shows how much I detest Clarkson.

Urethane flexible bumpers flex in and out like that. It's part of the design and not a sign of bad quality. Same for injected resin body panels.

I think I recall getting on Cliffy's case for not understanding that, either.
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:21 PM   #50
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*Edits thread title as it was really starting to bug him*

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
I think I recall getting on Cliffy's case for not understanding that, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
I remember that well, and agree with him, lol, I seem to recall my coments weren't appreciated by some of the members here though, lol.
It was you I was refering to here, lol. I actually think Clarkson's one of the funniest men on TV. Dont take this the wrong way, Chris, but I think alot of the time people in the US dont understand our humour. Oh, it was about the leaf springs that you pulled me up on before, lol, I think I came round to your way of thinking though......eventually!
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:37 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cliffy
It was you I was refering to here, lol. I actually think Clarkson's one of the funniest men on TV. Dont take this the wrong way, Chris, but I think alot of the time people in the US dont understand our humour. Oh, it was about the leaf springs that you pulled me up on before, lol, I think I came round to your way of thinking though......eventually!

Two things: you're right, it was the leaf spring thing, and that pisses me off about Clarkson, too, as there are enough wanna-be car nuts that take his rants seriously.

Secondly, and I've gone on about this here before, I do believe... I get British humor. I LOVE British humour as it's more closely related to my own sense of humor. Monty Python, Benny Hill, Eddie Izzard, Little Britain, Black Adder, Ab Fab, the Office, and much more are in my personal collection. My dislike of Clarkson has nothing to do with getting british humor or not. he can indeed be funny. Most of the time, however, he's simply a twit. And he's factually wrong on enough counts that I dislike his abilty to promote his opinion as something to be listened to when he's trying to be a serious auto journalist. Funny automotive journalism is found on Sniff Petrol.

BTW, my wife does stand up comedy and improv comedy (like on the show Who's Line...") She's also big on British humor, and I spend a lot of time at her shows, or other comedy shows, and have helped write her material. I know from funny, have a great sense of humor, and spend a LOT of time laughing.

But cars are my second passion, and I take knowledge of them very seriously, and have for the last 30+ years.
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:49 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ChrisV
Two things: you're right, it was the leaf spring thing, and that pisses me off about Clarkson, too, as there are enough wanna-be car nuts that take his rants seriously.

Secondly, and I've gone on about this here before, I do believe... I get British humor. I LOVE British humour as it's more closely related to my own sense of humor. Monty Python, Benny Hill, Eddie Izzard, Little Britain, Black Adder, Ab Fab, the Office, and much more are in my personal collection. My dislike of Clarkson has nothing to do with getting british humor or not. he can indeed be funny. Most of the time, however, he's simply a twit. And he's factually wrong on enough counts that I dislike his abilty to promote his opinion as something to be listened to when he's trying to be a serious auto journalist. Funny automotive journalism is found on Sniff Petrol.

BTW, my wife does stand up comedy and improv comedy (like on the show Who's Line...") She's also big on British humor, and I spend a lot of time at her shows, or other comedy shows, and have helped write her material. I know from funny, have a great sense of humor, and spend a LOT of time laughing.

But cars are my second passion, and I take knowledge of them very seriously, and have for the last 30+ years.
I take what I said about our humour back, atleast in your case, and some others I'm sure, lol. Problem is, Chris, Clarkson is respected as an auto journalist because of his mix of sense of humour and knowledge that is mixed with both Richard Hammond and James May, in Top Gear atleast (have to admit James May knows his stuff, lol), I also think that most modern Auto Journalists lack technological experience, and base what they report more on what a certain car is like in tyheir eyes. I haven't got as much experience as you by atleast 20yrs...I think, lol, so obviously you'll know, more so than me on many occassions, when what he says is false, as you've experienced probably a few more cars than I have....Oh, and Little Britain =
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Old 07-08-2006, 12:27 AM   #53
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ChrisV, tell us a good joke, im poor at jokes but ive got humour!
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Old 07-08-2006, 01:37 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Bronxie
Oh yeah, I did mention a 100 grand porsche. Let's take the carrera 4s cabriolet for example. Feast on these luxurious features for your money.

Power windows...

Rain-sensor wipers (decent feature)

Integrated dual cup-holders? lol

Cruise control...

The only good features are all options even, and that only includes, 6 disc cd changer? "Navigation module for PCM"?


So basically, a porsche is like a kia with a bigger engine.

What was your argument again?

Don't forget the standard lockable glovebox either!

http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...s/?gtabindex=6

Do you think they rip you off just because it's a sports car? Maybe...I should call and ask why.

what happened to the good old days when real sports cars (porsches, etc) did not come wit any luxuries...what about the days when they didnt even have air conditioning or radios???? back then people still bought these cars because of the driving experience, not because of the luxury features. now people like urself expect these vechiles to also best the finest luxury machines as well. what happened to cars that had character and were not just appliances like every other car they seem to make now.

and i thought i was the ignorant newbie
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Old 07-08-2006, 01:40 AM   #55
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classics had luxury too, look at jaguar xk120's or triumph spitfires etc etc
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Old 07-08-2006, 01:41 AM   #56
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classics had lxury too, look at jaguar xk120's or triumph spitfires etc etc

yea i know...but not the luxury that some cars seem to overdo with now. they were still sports cars, no luxo saloons as u brits call them

nice spaceness by the way
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Old 07-08-2006, 01:48 AM   #57
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what do you mean "luxo saloons"
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Old 07-08-2006, 01:50 AM   #58
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u know mercedes S-Class, Lexus LS, BMW 7-Series, etc.
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Old 07-08-2006, 01:55 AM   #59
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we had luxo saloons, exscuse me if i make no sense, im going to bed soon
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Old 07-08-2006, 03:29 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ChrisV
Has zero to do with why exotic cars and small run sports cars cost what they do. Ever look into the economics of volume runs of any product?



I do look "strictly at what yore' getting" the differnce is I know quit a bit about how cars are made, and what it takes to make cars that do what these do. I know Porshce's arent' ripoffs, but it woudl take more time than I have to explain why. In fact, I've learned it by paying attention to EVERY car over the last 30+ years. If you can't "get it" from what's already been explained to you in this thread, then yore 'a closed mided fool with no clue. And I can't be any nicer than that about it.



Two things... the Corvette shares componennts with lesser Chevrolets. the engie architecture is shared with teh truck lines (even teh Z06 uses basically a modded LS series engine and that tooling ahas been paid for). Porsche uses almost completely unique parts, and the engines are ONLY used in Porshces. Porsche is a smaller company than GM, and the production runs are smaller. that transliates DIRECTLY into higher costs per part. And when the parts are higher quality to begin with (and as much as I love Corvettes, the molded fiberglass bodies and more plastic interiors cost less to make then the Porsche parts. Period)... If you're a retard that ONLY looks at hp per dollar, than ANY new car is a total rip off, as I can make a 600 hp engine with 700 lb ft of torque, for under 2 grand total, and put it into a $500 used car.




That's utterly simplistic and puts you at a 13 year old's mentality about cars. Period. The fact that you keep arguing it proves that you're just getting used to testosterone flowing though tyour body and think power is everything. It's not. Luxury featuyres isn't everything. Exclusivity, quality, production costs, history, overall ability, and more all factor in.



You just made about 10 different assumptions. I am only mentioning engine power because that's virtually ALL porsche offers. That is my argument. That's all it gives in my view, so if that's all it gives, why don't we at least get more of it for the price? You are making gigantic assumptions about my argument and I don't appreciate that. Read what I am saying entirely and take it for what it's worth, not for what can enhance your argument against me.

The problem with everyone's arguments is that you are basically approaching this with an "all-or-nothing" attitude. Parts of my arguments are entirely true as are parts of your counter-arguments. Yes it is true porsche has a strong heritage and high quality parts and exceptional performance, but it is also true it offers much less than almost all of the other cars in its class.

You can make a good argument for a corvette vs. porsche carrera4s cabriolet, but can you make that same argument for carrera4s vs. sl550? How about BMW 650i? I suppose they use crappy parts as well? Or perhaps it's the fact that those cars have no real reputation, right? Sorry but your argument is poor in that regard. Compared to the rest of the market, porsches give you short end of the stick. Isn't that what a real market is based on? Do you not know what something should be worth based on the prices of OTHER similar products? If there is no standard, how do you know what it's worth? By what the company tells you?

You are a true car appreciator. You appreciate reputation, performance, heritage and quality. I am a businessperson and a consumer. I see it from a different perspective.

That is essentially what this all boils down to is just a difference of perspective. If you guys can't expand your frame of perspective to understand what I am saying, then you are the narrow-minded ones...not me.

I do appreciate porsches for what they're worth, but I can't help but feel like there is more to be desired, from my perspective anyways.
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