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Old 04-09-2007, 08:33 PM   #1
MrM.
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Vibration while Driving.

Greetings,

My wife and I recently purchase a 2007 Saturn Vue. While we're driving it, we notice that there seems to be a weird vibration happening. We told the dealer and they said they reset the software. After doing this, the problem persists. We tried to drive another one, and a similar noise happened. The mechanic said something about "the Automatic Transmission Shift Adaptives", and I want to make sure that this is actually something that might cause a vibration. I tried to look it up, but have had no luck so far. Does anyone know anything about these "adaptives" or know of a good website that I can visit to read more about them? Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks.
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Old 04-15-2007, 07:08 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrM.
Greetings,

My wife and I recently purchase a 2007 Saturn Vue. While we're driving it, we notice that there seems to be a weird vibration happening. We told the dealer and they said they reset the software. After doing this, the problem persists. We tried to drive another one, and a similar noise happened. The mechanic said something about "the Automatic Transmission Shift Adaptives", and I want to make sure that this is actually something that might cause a vibration. I tried to look it up, but have had no luck so far. Does anyone know anything about these "adaptives" or know of a good website that I can visit to read more about them? Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks.
Adaptive management: adaptive management rigorously combines management, research, monitoring, and means of changing practices so that credible information is gained and management activities are modified by experience.

Adaptive Automatic Transmission
Some transmissions can "learn" and adapt to the driver's style, altering shift points and other transmission functions to produce the most efficient operation.


What this means is you car is collecting empircal data as you drive the car. Things like how you accelerate. Ambient temp. Battery charge and discharge rate, and a whole host of other things, sometimes even terrain contour information. All of it is based on how you drive the car. This data is then used to control the transmission and Battery drain in that car. Most adaptives can be reset by disconnecting the battery for 60 seconds. This wipes the ECU (Electronic Control Unit) computer memory, and it starts collecting all over. It is important to drive the car in a normal manner while the computer is in this learning mode, learning your habits. If you baby the car it doesn't learn well. Have the dealer ride with you and check out your driving habits.

I don't understand the noise/vibration problem though. Perhaps if you explained it a little better.
Where from, when, how long, sounds like, how bad. WHAT GEAR?

Try "Adaptive Automatic Transmission" on Dogpile.
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Old 04-15-2007, 07:35 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcutsh
Adaptive management: adaptive management rigorously combines management, research, monitoring, and means of changing practices so that credible information is gained and management activities are modified by experience.

Adaptive Automatic Transmission
Some transmissions can "learn" and adapt to the driver's style, altering shift points and other transmission functions to produce the most efficient operation.

What this means is you car is collecting empircal data as you drive the car. Things like how you accelerate. Ambient temp. Battery charge and discharge rate, and a whole host of other things, sometimes even terrain contour information. All of it is based on how you drive the car. This data is then used to control the transmission and Battery drain in that car. Most adaptives can be reset by disconnecting the battery for 60 seconds. This wipes the ECU (Electronic Control Unit) computer memory, and it starts collecting all over. It is important to drive the car in a normal manner while the computer is in this learning mode, learning your habits. If you baby the car it doesn't learn well. Have the dealer ride with you and check out your driving habits.

I don't understand the noise/vibration problem though. Perhaps if you explained it a little better.
Where from, when, how long, sounds like, how bad. WHAT GEAR?

Try "Adaptive Automatic Transmission" on Dogpile.
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Better yet. Try understanding how the system operates BEFORE pretending to give advice based on your vast internet experience.

Adaptive technology DOES NOT stop learning (or re-learning) 5, 50, 500 or 5,000 miles after being reset. It continues to learn from drive cycle to drive cycle and compiles information essentially forever until it is reset for whatever reason. When it is initially reset there may be unusual driving characteristics for a very short time, but no matter how you drive the car immediately after reset, the PCM quickly figures out what it needs to do regardless of how you drive. That's what it means by "adaptive". Look it up. I bet in the old days you told people if they want their engine to be fast, flog it from the beginning, which not surprisingly is also wrong.

Why does it not surprise me that you glean your "knowledge" at a place called "Dogpile"? How very ironic.




P.S. Maybe the reason you prefer for people to point out others ignorance on a forum nicely is because you spend so much time being corrected. As near as I can tell from reading many of your rants, you'd feel more at home on the Oprah forum. Have a nice day.
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Old 04-21-2007, 01:11 PM   #4
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I have vibration problems, but it's probably due to warped or improperly balanced tires. I've not had time to go back to Firestone.
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Old 04-21-2007, 02:23 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
... It continues to learn from drive cycle to drive cycle and compiles information essentially forever until it is reset for whatever reason.
......

You know I have only been in the digital process control industry since it's mainstream infancy and I have yet to find an embedded controller that can compile information, compile data, or compile at all. It may have an interpretor for an HMI, but compiling is not something a design engineer would consider as necessary, given controllers work at machine code/native language level. Actually they work at a lower level, but registers and stacks sounds so unexotic.

When you say drive cycle to drive cycle, can you explain how the algorithms and routines work?

Of course if you were Windsonian, who works with a well known automation, turbocharger and nuclear bomb company, then you'd be all too familiar with draconian compilers.
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Old 04-21-2007, 02:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
You know I have only been in the digital process control industry since it's mainstream infancy and I have yet to find an embedded controller that can compile information, compile data, or compile at all. It may have an interpretor for an HMI, but compiling is not something a design engineer would consider as necessary, given controllers work at machine code/native language level. Actually they work at a lower level, but registers and stacks sounds so unexotic.

When you say drive cycle to drive cycle, can you explain how the algorithms and routines work?

Of course if you were Windsonian, who works with a well known automation, turbocharger and nuclear bomb company, then you'd be all too familiar with draconian compilers.
Correction. You have been in the bullsh*t industry since it's inception. You may have started it.

But since you want to play semantics, and unlike you I'm open to learning instead of simply believing that my opinions are fact, I'll play your silly game. If a vehicle's PCM monitors input from various sensors, collects that data, processes that data, is able to learn from the data that has been gathered and processed and then adapts it's driveability strategies based on that data, what exactly is it doing? Where is the data going? I realize the data is not stored indefinitely, but it is most assuredly stored. Enlighten us with your opinion.

P.S. Since you were kind enough to edit your post while I was replying, I have to add this as an afterthought. As a non-engineer, I don't need to know how algorithms and routines work. What I do need to know is how the learning and adaptive process works from a practical standpoint. I do. If I used an incorrect word and offended your computer geek sensibilities, too bad. I do know how to explain the operating principle in laymans terms, which is good enough for 99.9% of the population.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:57 AM   #7
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On the contrary you didn't offend me with your obvious lack of knowledge in this instance, but your attack on John was uncalled for. I couldn't give two hoots that you have a need to crawl over people via insult to focus attention on yourself, to ridicule for a perverse delight ....... these a fundamental flaws in human nature, but some manage it far better than others.

You aren't here to learn so I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain a "bullsh*t industry" (sic). Next time you use a domestic appliance, think of how much bullshit you have stored around the house. You must have bullshit wherever you go.
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Old 04-22-2007, 02:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
On the contrary you didn't offend me with your obvious lack of knowledge in this instance, but your attack on John was uncalled for. I couldn't give two hoots that you have a need to crawl over people via insult to focus attention on yourself, to ridicule for a perverse delight ....... these a fundamental flaws in human nature, but some manage it far better than others.

You aren't here to learn so I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain a "bullsh*t industry" (sic). Next time you use a domestic appliance, think of how much bullshit you have stored around the house. You must have bullshit wherever you go.
Thank you for proving my point about you and people like you better than I ever could. You had the opportunity to educate me on a subject, I even asked you to, but you chose not to. Furthermore, at least I'm honest enough to insult people up front. You do the same thing except you also advertise your own self professed superior intellect and character while doing so. Pot, kettle, black.

BTW, nowhere in this thread have you or your crybaby friend told me where I'm wrong concerning the practical application of adaptive technology, although you have had plenty of opportunity. The only thing you've added are your "insult(s) to focus attention on yourself, to ridicule for a perverse delight ....... these a fundamental flaws in human nature, but some manage it far better than others".

The floor is yours, but at this point I doubt anyone, including myself, much cares to hear what you have to say.
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Old 04-23-2007, 01:54 PM   #9
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Wouldn't it be nice if I could actually come here and learn something? Comon guys...
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:08 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by jedimario
Wouldn't it be nice if I could actually come here and learn something? Comon guys...
Don't give me the "come on guys" bullsh*t. If you read the thread you'd see that I not only provided a brief explanation of how adaptive transmission management works, but also asked for clarification/correction from somone who claims superior knowledge.

BTW, what have you added to this thread besides whining? Do you have an answer for the OP? Come on guy!
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Old 04-23-2007, 05:23 PM   #11
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I just find it kinda sad that yall have to argue so much because you explained something in technically incorrect but practical terms. Either way it made sense, and Wally probably shouldn't have gone off like that, but you're both keeping it up.

Fight over it if you want.

As far as me contributing, well, it's a GM, what do you expect?

Seriously though I have no idea, but would like to learn. Of course if the person with the problem doesn't explain it throughly enough I suppose it'd be tough to tell what's going on.
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:47 PM   #12
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jedimario you can find books in the libraries about adaptive control and auto tune algorithms and routines. Without industry experience the importance of subtle and seemingly begnign processes can be mistaken as unimportant. If people have problems understanding how a car engine works, they're sure to find process control a black magic.

For some reason people think that a simple process controller like an automotive ECU has intelligence and therefore can learn. They think it understands driving habits and adjusts. But adjusts to what, economy, performance, sedation, driver punishment for thrashing the car, ....?

A controller has a finite storage area. It can't just stack in excess of the available read/write memory. In fact ECUs have very little storage memory in comparison to their industrial big brothers.

So you want a short course, without the if, buts, maybes that go into a program?
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Old 04-24-2007, 03:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
jedimario you can find books in the libraries about adaptive control and auto tune algorithms and routines. Without industry experience the importance of subtle and seemingly begnign processes can be mistaken as unimportant. If people have problems understanding how a car engine works, they're sure to find process control a black magic.

For some reason people think that a simple process controller like an automotive ECU has intelligence and therefore can learn. They think it understands driving habits and adjusts. But adjusts to what, economy, performance, sedation, driver punishment for thrashing the car, ....?

A controller has a finite storage area. It can't just stack in excess of the available read/write memory. In fact ECUs have very little storage memory in comparison to their industrial big brothers.

So you want a short course, without the if, buts, maybes that go into a program?

If it works anything like a computer program, which is what it is from what I'm gathering from this thread, then I understand the basics well enough as far as what it does, no thanks to you.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:37 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by vwhobo
Don't give me the "come on guys" bullsh*t. If you read the thread you'd see that I not only provided a brief explanation of how adaptive transmission management works, but also asked for clarification/correction from somone who claims superior knowledge.
Seems to me that jcutsh provided the brief explanation.... you merely pointed out that the system doesn't stop "learning". Everything else you said seemed to be either regurgitating the same thing in different words, or arguing with other people on a personal level.

If it makes you feel better to feel that you helped out in this thread with your concise, accurate posts, and all other comers were only spreading lies, misinformation and bullsh*t, then I'm sure no one else will really mind. But as for whether anyone else believes that..... I guess that's really up to their own sensibilities.
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Old 04-24-2007, 04:53 AM   #15
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jedimario I offered to explain how an ECU works and how adaptive control works and you see fit to throw a barb.

Pretty typical of some on this forum; prefer to believe Google, Wikepedia, fantastic yarns and self appointed oracles over experience, then get nasty when the facts don't fit the fiction. Not that I'm adverse to opinions, but they aren't allowed in this forum, just try then watch as pathetic diatribe is dished up by the keepers of Webster's Dictionary, dictionary.com and Roget's Thesaurus .

Did I upset you by having the audacity of taking an iconic member to task for inappropriate behaviour? Oh dear me. Maybe I should cower like a redheaded stepchild. You can be the one to turn out the lights once all the victims have departed, which shouldn't be too much longer at the current rate of attrition.

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