Car Forums  

Go Back   Car Forums > Vehicle Specific > Asian Imports
FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-05-2005, 01:11 AM   #1
Accord_Man
CF Addict
 
Accord_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 345
turbocharge or supercharge

would you get more horsepower out of a turbo or supercharger on a 2.3 liter 4cyl. VTEC accord ( you don't have to explain the diff. between turbos and supercharger thanks to howstuffworks.com)
Accord_Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 01:17 AM   #2
CarEXPERT
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Accord_Man
would you get more horsepower out of a turbo or supercharger on a 2.3 liter 4cyl. VTEC accord ( you don't have to explain the diff. between turbos and supercharger thanks to howstuffworks.com)

Get turbo and NOS cause it works well with vtech. do it like the fast and the furious.
CarEXPERT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 01:29 AM   #3
Bino
Written Off
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Phoenix, Oregon, USA
Posts: 844
Well, they're kind of different monsters. Honestly on a 2.3L Accord, which I'm assuming you're not going to rebuild, you'll probably be better off with a supercharger with about 5-6lbs of boost. To really reap the benefits of a turbo you need to build your motor with lower compression pistons etc, then you can really turn the boost up. But, you're not going to feel the benefits until higher in the rpm band (lag), which is good for FWD because you can get enough momentum before the boost hits to possibly keep the front tires planted.

Sounds like you're new to the whole car thing, most likely new to controlling big power as well (not ripping on you, just observed opinion). I'd recommend a bolt-on supercharger with the boost set fairly low. This should give you a nice torque increase across a broad RPM range and still keep your engine from grenading.
Bino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 01:39 AM   #4
Accord_Man
CF Addict
 
Accord_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bino
Well, they're kind of different monsters. Honestly on a 2.3L Accord, which I'm assuming you're not going to rebuild, you'll probably be better off with a supercharger with about 5-6lbs of boost. To really reap the benefits of a turbo you need to build your motor with lower compression pistons etc, then you can really turn the boost up. But, you're not going to feel the benefits until higher in the rpm band (lag), which is good for FWD because you can get enough momentum before the boost hits to possibly keep the front tires planted.

Sounds like you're new to the whole car thing, most likely new to controlling big power as well (not ripping on you, just observed opinion). I'd recommend a bolt-on supercharger with the boost set fairly low. This should give you a nice torque increase across a broad RPM range and still keep your engine from grenading.


your right, im only 14. what kind of ECU will i have to get to control it

oh yeah, how much horsepower gain could I expect.
Accord_Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 01:43 AM   #5
StiMan
CF Retired Post Whore
 
StiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Posts: 2,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarEXPERT
Get turbo and NOS cause it works well with vtech. do it like the fast and the furious.
Shut the hell up. Its VTEC, not "vtech." NOS is stupid. Turbo is fine, but what the hell.

Get a supercharger. I believe it is more ballenced for everyday driving.
__________________
John

StiMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 01:56 AM   #6
moostang104314
the guy you wish you were
 
moostang104314's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 532
I couldn't tell you exactly how much power to expect out of a supercharged Accord engine, but your horsepower usually increases from 1.5x to 2x the original horsepower. However, this depends on a large number of factors. As for the ECU, I don't believe you have to get a new one, you just have to adjust the one already inside your car to create an even fuel/air mixture with the supercharger.
__________________
moostang104314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 02:46 AM   #7
Accord_Man
CF Addict
 
Accord_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by moostang104314
I couldn't tell you exactly how much power to expect out of a supercharged Accord engine, but your horsepower usually increases from 1.5x to 2x the original horsepower. However, this depends on a large number of factors. As for the ECU, I don't believe you have to get a new one, you just have to adjust the one already inside your car to create an even fuel/air mixture with the supercharger.


thanks a lot guys, that question has been floating around my mind for a while.


CarExpert, I knew it was you talkin the moment I saw the words NOS and "fast and the furious" on the same line. Let the real Car Experts answer my questions.(I asume everybody else would like you to stop answering their questions too) (I am not saying I am a car expert so please don't rip on me)
Accord_Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 03:47 AM   #8
Wally
I Know More Than You
 
Wally's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 2,564
I'd be going turbo, but that's just me. Then again I would question why you need to force feed it in the first place?
__________________
"She gave me a look only a mother could give a child."
Wally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 04:39 AM   #9
Bino
Written Off
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Phoenix, Oregon, USA
Posts: 844
If you "build" a motor to boost it, you can expect a 1.5-2X HP figure. But, if you just put a supercharger on a stock motor, you will not be putting out those figures (if you do, it won't be for very long). You should probably expect a 40-50hp (roughly) gain from a 5-6psi supercharger on your car. But, you're going to see a significant torque gain across your entire RPM range which will make the car much more responsive and a lot more fun to drive.

You will have to do some fuel management mods, most stock ECU's do not understand when you boost them. When the manifold pressure goes positive, they get confused (I do not know this specifically for your car, but very few N/A vehicles can be easily boosted). There's ways to trick the ECU, and since it's a Honda, probably tons of places can burn you a chip or offer a piggy-back solution. There are almost no factory ECU's that you can just "adjust" (hence the piggy-back solution) (many Ford and a few Mitsubishi, I'm sure a few others can be relatively easily modified, but it's still fairly expensive).

You may want a rising-rate FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator), this may be a way to step around some of the ECU mods. As the manifold pressure rises, so does the effective fuel pressure (beyond just matching the boost pressure). So, with more pressure behind the injectors, they will effectively be flowing more fuel, and may closely match the proper A/F ratio.

Why do you need to force feed it in the first place? Why are there muscle cars, why do turbo's exist, why are there aftermarket superchargers? Why the hell does this board exist? Why don't we all drive little square boxes with .6L diesel's that get 95mph? Well, because we want performance and originality, and we can (well, some can, and others want to... hence the aftermarket).

For the love of Pete, don't put some damn NOS (Nitrous Oxide System) on your car.
Bino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 09:49 AM   #10
Wally
I Know More Than You
 
Wally's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 2,564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bino
If you "build" a motor to boost it, you can expect a 1.5-2X HP figure. But, if you just put a supercharger on a stock motor, you will not be putting out those figures (if you do, it won't be for very long). You should probably expect a 40-50hp (roughly) gain from a 5-6psi supercharger on your car. .........

So the 2.3 Vtec is about 150 Hp @ 5700 rpm ?

and you say 6 pounds gives 50 extra ponies with a supercharger. How does it do that? I mean the air density ratio is only 1:1.19 so even with zero pumping losses it can't achieve anywhere near that IMHO. Take into account the losses say 30% and it's zip increase in the scheme of things.
__________________
"She gave me a look only a mother could give a child."
Wally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 05:12 PM   #11
Bino
Written Off
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Phoenix, Oregon, USA
Posts: 844
There were no calculations associated with that estimate. That seems to be the average advertised gain from all of the bolt-on superchargers that run 5-7psi on stock bottom end.

Zip gain... yeah right.
Bino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 08:13 PM   #12
Accord_Man
CF Addict
 
Accord_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bino
If you "build" a motor to boost it, you can expect a 1.5-2X HP figure. But, if you just put a supercharger on a stock motor, you will not be putting out those figures (if you do, it won't be for very long). You should probably expect a 40-50hp (roughly) gain from a 5-6psi supercharger on your car. But, you're going to see a significant torque gain across your entire RPM range which will make the car much more responsive and a lot more fun to drive.

You will have to do some fuel management mods, most stock ECU's do not understand when you boost them. When the manifold pressure goes positive, they get confused (I do not know this specifically for your car, but very few N/A vehicles can be easily boosted). There's ways to trick the ECU, and since it's a Honda, probably tons of places can burn you a chip or offer a piggy-back solution. There are almost no factory ECU's that you can just "adjust" (hence the piggy-back solution) (many Ford and a few Mitsubishi, I'm sure a few others can be relatively easily modified, but it's still fairly expensive).

You may want a rising-rate FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator), this may be a way to step around some of the ECU mods. As the manifold pressure rises, so does the effective fuel pressure (beyond just matching the boost pressure). So, with more pressure behind the injectors, they will effectively be flowing more fuel, and may closely match the proper A/F ratio.

Why do you need to force feed it in the first place? Why are there muscle cars, why do turbo's exist, why are there aftermarket superchargers? Why the hell does this board exist? Why don't we all drive little square boxes with .6L diesel's that get 95mph? Well, because we want performance and originality, and we can (well, some can, and others want to... hence the aftermarket).

For the love of Pete, don't put some damn NOS (Nitrous Oxide System) on your car.


yeah, I wasn't even thinkin about Nitrous


does it help to get an intercooler for a supercharger or are they just for turbos?
Accord_Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 08:24 PM   #13
Inygknok
El del Supra
 
Inygknok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 1,863
on SC's they are mostly called aftercoolers... but they basically do the same. i believe there are intercoolers for SC's, but some aftercooler kits include an extra water pump and everything. they do make a difference since they help cool down the charge which means more efficient power.
__________________


Supra: To surpass or go beyond.
Inygknok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 11:24 PM   #14
Wally
I Know More Than You
 
Wally's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 2,564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bino
There were no calculations associated with that estimate. That seems to be the average advertised gain from all of the bolt-on superchargers that run 5-7psi on stock bottom end.

Zip gain... yeah right.


Well practical physics has a nasty habit of debunking advertiser's claims. Can you direct me to a site that shows these supposed gains?

I just had a quick look at a similar factory setup for the 3.8 Buick motor here and the aesthmatic version is 152kW and the huffered version is 171kW...go figure.
__________________
"She gave me a look only a mother could give a child."
Wally is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2005, 11:25 PM   #15
Bino
Written Off
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Phoenix, Oregon, USA
Posts: 844
Alright, Intercoolers/Aftercoolers (they're both lower the temperature of the intake charge... i.e. they are charge-coolers). Technically anything on a single supercharged or single turbo application should technically be called an aftercooler (as it comes after the compressor). Roughly 95% of what I've read refers to this piece of equipment as an Intercooler. Now, my understanding is that the name "Intercooler" comes from very large diesel applications where they actually use two turbo's in sequence. The routing goes: Intake - Turbo - Intercooler - Turbo - Aftercooler - Motor. It's called an Intercooler because it's inbetween the two turbo's (I wan't claim this information as law, but I've read several articles that line this out).

At 5-6psi it really doesn't make much difference, a lot of people don't run a charge-cooler at those levels. But, if you can run a nice short route piping kit, it really couldn't hurt. Because psi is not a solid reflection of actual lb/min which is what makes power. Hot air at 15psi may have the same mass of air as cold air at 12psi. You just don't want to get the pipes too long because you'll lose some flow via the long pipes, and it'll contribute to poor response (probably not noticable, but at some point it becomes noticable).

The type of charge-cooler that would come with its own water pump would have to be a water-air charge-cooler (water-to-air intercooler/aftercooler). This item acts exactly opposite as your radiator. It uses cold fluid to lower the air temperature going into your intake. These are frequently on roots-type supercharger systems. If you're using a centrifugal type supercharger (looks like a turbo with a gearbox instead of an exhaust turbine), you'll probably just want to run an air-air charge-cooler (intercooler, aftercooler). Which is the pretty aluminum thing that everybody puts on the front of their turbo cars.
Bino is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2002 - 2011 Car Forums. All rights reserved.