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Old 04-16-2008, 05:05 AM   #1
MistaGreg
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Modify my engine to burn hydrogen

I want make my 2000 mercury sable burn hydrogen. Call me a freak ... but why does my fuel injector have to inject gasoline... why not any combustable liquid or gas. I am here to learn how to or why not.

-Greg
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Old 04-16-2008, 05:51 AM   #2
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This is much more difficult than you make it sound. First off, it is much more difficult/dangerous to store hydrogen. If I remember right, it is usually stored as a liquid in pressurized cylinders, but I may be wrong. Secondly, The combustion properties of Hydrogen are very different from either Gasoline(iso-octane) or Ethanol(hydroxyethane). In other words the entire engine would be different, from the compression ratio to the air/hydrogen ratio. On modern vehicles, the computer would be very, very confused if you tried to run it on hydrogen. Aside from these practical problems, Hydrogen is also less energy efficient than gasoline, so you would have to refuel 2-3 times more often with a given fuel tank size. It also takes considerable energy to produce liquid hydrogen. Of course this energy can come from renewable sources, but the fact is, this energy often comes from coal or oil burning power plants.**
The moral of the story: It is not worth it, wait a few years for them to hit production, or buy a hybrid. Or take your bike to work

**This information comes from my understanding of hydrogen, and by no means is it to be taken as fact. If you want facts, ask again once final exams are over.
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:18 AM   #3
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You forgot to put in that the hydrogen has to be stored in special containers because it has to be under pressure to actually be enough to run a car.

I can't picture it being any cheaper to run your car on hydrogen...for now. Just wait a couple of years until hydrogen fuel cell vehicles hit the road--although they use hydrogen in a completely different way.
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:24 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_knows
You forgot to put in that the hydrogen has to be stored in special containers because it has to be under pressure to actually be enough to run a car.
I thought that was what I said here
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
First off, it is much more difficult/dangerous to store hydrogen. If I remember right, it is usually stored as a liquid in pressurized cylinders
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Old 04-16-2008, 02:10 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by dvdrose18
I thought that was what I said here
Oops, I missed that somehow lol.
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Old 04-16-2008, 03:39 PM   #6
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You guys know a price range to do this sort of job?
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Old 04-16-2008, 09:52 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by JPolito830
You guys know a price range to do this sort of job?
Ive seen it done to an older Mercedes at some car show, no idea on the price range. If you want to learn how it all works, the Honda civic from 98-02 I believe was offered in a GX trim, find some info on that car and the engine and such and youll be fine.

OP, unless you live in New York or California, its not worth it because those are the only 2 states IIRC where Hydrogen is semi-readily available.
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:10 AM   #8
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Hydrogen my be less efficient, but it is free to produce once the equipment is bought...

Solar panels to run the electrolosys process and to run the compressor.

I can refill once a day if needed - I only need 150 mile range each day.

-Greg
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaGreg
Hydrogen my be less efficient, but it is free to produce once the equipment is bought...

Solar panels to run the electrolosys process and to run the compressor.

I can refill once a day if needed - I only need 150 mile range each day.

-Greg
Right, but you gotta ask yourself is it worth it? It will probbably cost you more to convert your car than to just buy one ready made.

Look for a Honda Civic GX, they might be hard to come by, but they run on hydrogen from factory, you dont have to mess with setting everything up and having safety issues, not to mention you might have trouble passing local inspections if your car is modified that way. The way I see it, its not worthwhile, if you want to save money on gas, buy a small car with a small engine, you dont have to deal with installing everything, running safety risks, etc. and you will still get good MPG, I get 29 city from my civic I couldnt ask for more really.

Another alternative is diesel, they are very fuel efficient engines, and as soon as the war is over, expect prices to fall dramatically, so I hear. Good thing with diesel is you can make biodiesel at home, for dimes on the dollar, and there are kits out there for it, which, I personally think, are safer than running DIY rigged hydrogen tanks.

Also, back to hydrogen, I believe the motors themselves are different as well, not just the fuel system. You are looking at a major overhaul without enough benefit to balance it out.
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Last edited by newyorker : 04-17-2008 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaGreg
Hydrogen my be less efficient, but it is free to produce once the equipment is bought...

Solar panels to run the electrolosys process and to run the compressor.

I can refill once a day if needed - I only need 150 mile range each day.

-Greg
I wouldn't call it free, it still costs money for the water, and solar panels are expensive and they don't last forever either. Never mind the fact that you wouldn't be able to drive on a cloudy day. Solar panels also give me another reason to tell you to wait. Just from the journal articles I see kicking around at school I think we can expect to see major improvements in the efficiency/cost ratio of solar panels in the next 5-10 years.
If you want solar panels it would be easier, safer, and more cost effective (and probably gov't subsidized) to use them on your house, or for an electric car, as electric cars are more energy efficient than hydrogen cars. (less energy is wasted in the conversion processes)
found this on Wikipedia to explain it better
Edit: dang, that picture is huge, click for image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ydrogen_EV.png
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorker
Right, but you gotta ask yourself is it worth it? It will probbably cost you more to convert your car than to just buy one ready made.

Look for a Honda Civic GX, they might be hard to come by, but they run on hydrogen from factory, you dont have to mess with setting everything up and having safety issues, not to mention you might have trouble passing local inspections if your car is modified that way. The way I see it, its not worthwhile, if you want to save money on gas, buy a small car with a small engine, you dont have to deal with installing everything, running safety risks, etc. and you will still get good MPG, I get 29 city from my civic I couldnt ask for more really.

Another alternative is diesel, they are very fuel efficient engines, and as soon as the war is over, expect prices to fall dramatically, so I hear. Good thing with diesel is you can make biodiesel at home, for dimes on the dollar, and there are kits out there for it, which, I personally think, are safer than running DIY rigged hydrogen tanks.

Also, back to hydrogen, I believe the motors themselves are different as well, not just the fuel system. You are looking at a major overhaul without enough benefit to balance it out.
Oil prices are high because demand is high (and continues to increase), and partially due to inflation. Not much to do with the war. Gas prices will probably go down eventually, but it won't be because of Iraq.

But yeah, biodiesel would be better than hydrogen for a project.
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:20 PM   #12
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The water would be free too. - Rain Water. I already have a collection system.

The honda thing is nice, but i need something I can fit into.

There is a principle about my project. There is a free fuel and an abundant source. There is a way to make it work.

I didn't join this group to be told can't. Let talk about how to...

-Greg

PS - Gas prices will never go down. The war will never be over.

Last edited by MistaGreg : 04-17-2008 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:28 AM   #13
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Let me break this down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaGreg
The water would be free too. - Rain Water. I already have a collection system.
I believe you would need pure (distilled) water, otherwise impurities would build up and damage the equipment, and no, rain water is nowhere near pure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaGreg
The honda thing is nice, but i need something I can fit into.
Wait a while and more vehicles will have the option to run on hydrogen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaGreg
There is a principle about my project. There is a free fuel and an abundant source. There is a way to make it work.
Nothing is free. Just the equipment needed to produce hydrogen from sunlight would cost you a fortune

Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaGreg
I didn't join this group to be told can't. Let talk about how to...

If you really want to know how, do the research. I am sure if you googled it you would find thousands or millions of articles, papers, building designs, specs, hints etc. Some of it might cost you a few bucks, but that is a drop in the ocean compared to your other expenses. Never mind the fact that I doubt you have the technical knowledge or mechanical skill to convert your engine to run on hydrogen, so you would have to find a mechanic or fanatic to do it for you, and then knowing how is not your problem, you just need a big wallet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaGreg
PS - Gas prices will never go down. The war will never be over.
The laws of economics would disagree with you. Gas prices will come down some day. Eventually we will no longer depend on gas, either because we find better alternatives, or because we used it all up. At that point, or shortly thereafter, there will be no/minimal demand for gas, and the price will come down.

As far as the war never being over, you are right, there will always be people that hate us. However, if you mean we lost/will never win the war in Iraq, you are wrong. Not only does military intelligence show otherwise, but if it does become impossible, we could just turn it into one giant sheet of glass. The only reason it has taken as long as it has is because people are afraid of war, they think everyone can just live happily ever after, and are afraid to go in there and kick butt. If we weren't so concerned about "civilian" causalities, we could get the job done much faster.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:49 AM   #14
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It's only a matter of time before we start drilling in ANWR.
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:22 AM   #15
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let ME break this down for you dvdrose18

I am loaded!

some counselor in high school told me I can't - he has a house much smaller than mine and I have several more degrees than he.

oh there was another guy who said i can't ... I now have completed my 2nd HT with a 12 foot screen - best in the 400 home neighborhood

My wife said I could not build a deck... I have since built 2 decks, 2 basements (the second one was 1500 sqft), 2 additions, and my kids triple level playscape.

I have done it all. hydrogen is next...

Not knowing how today does not mean I can't figure it out! How absurd! Market Economics, Statistics, Computers, Networks, Construction, Electricity, HVAC, Carpentry... Why not a car?

Sounds like you are voting for McCan't... That's why the war will never end. In our life time gas prices will never go down. The fuel companies made 11 billion dollars last quarter, they are not ever going back.

-Greg
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