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Old 08-02-2004, 11:58 PM   #16
Zalight
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Yes it's possible to SC a rotary engine, ive only seen it once though and he was only running 8 psi. It was on a first gen, carburated RX-7, it was a centrifugal style SC. When i asked him how it worked he said it took a huge amout of work, mainly because everything had to be custom made. And yes we've already addressed the fuel consumption issue. It sux, but hey, it's the same as a V8 and there are plebty of people out there who will only swear by them. You know the type, 50-60 years old, constantly droning on about the Hemi.
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Old 08-02-2004, 11:59 PM   #17
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Yes it's possible to SC a rotary engine, ive only seen it once though and he was only running 8 psi. It was on a first gen, carburated RX-7, it was a centrifugal style SC. When i asked him how it worked he said it took a huge amout of work, mainly because everything had to be custom made. And yes we've already addressed the fuel consumption issue. It sux, but hey, it's the same as a V8 and there are plenty of people out there who will only swear by them. You know the type, 50-60 years old, constantly droning on about the Hemi.
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Old 08-02-2004, 11:59 PM   #18
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whoa... it submitted twice...
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Old 08-03-2004, 12:08 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Zalight
Yes it's possible to SC a rotary engine, ive only seen it once though and he was only running 8 psi. It was on a first gen, carburated RX-7, it was a centrifugal style SC. When i asked him how it worked he said it took a huge amout of work, mainly because everything had to be custom made. And yes we've already addressed the fuel consumption issue. It sux, but hey, it's the same as a V8 and there are plebty of people out there who will only swear by them. You know the type, 50-60 years old, constantly droning on about the Hemi.

I always laugh at those idiots in the new 'hemi' dodge products...they dont even really have hemi-sphereical combustion chambers....WTF, it's not a hemi people WAKE UP (does Homer simpson crazy dance)
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:07 AM   #20
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now that I think of it, doesn't the 13b lose a lot of heat during each rotor cycle due to the high compression? If it does wouldn't it have cooling problems? i.e. massive radiator and intercooler.
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Old 08-03-2004, 07:34 AM   #21
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now that I think of it, doesn't the 13b lose a lot of heat during each rotor cycle due to the high compression? If it does wouldn't it have cooling problems? i.e. massive radiator and intercooler.

Yes it does. Did you read all the posts? The two major problems with the rotary are its apex seals and its enormous heat production. And they are both easily surmountable. You can upgrade to better apex seals for $500, instead of paying $4000 for a new engine. To get over the heat you can get an aluminum radiator, set of fans and a swirl pot. Blat. great cooling.

If any of you don't know what a swirl pot is I won't be surprised, they are more common in europe then any where else and not even that common there. You mostly see them on race cars, rallycars etc. They swirl the water around to get rid of any air in the water by centrifugal force, by fitting a Swirl Pot into the top hose of the radiator you will eliminate hot-spots caused by cavitation in the cooling system. They connect directly into water(header) tanks, with either dash fittings or conventional push on fittings. Plus they're cheap; about $80 for a good quality cooling tool.
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Old 08-03-2004, 02:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by thunderbird1100
My girlfriend's 13b-rew just crapped out a few weeks back in her 94 Touring RX-7...it lasted to right before 100k....stock motor (yes, it was a apex seal)..cool thing is, she surprises me before we go on our trip with a shane's racing 20b we ordered and she installed it right before our trip. It's nice...big power (ported out...etc.)...best of all it's N/A and doesnt have that extra heat from forced induction.

How did you put the much longer 20B into the RX7, and get it running with the computer and all the accessories, in car that engine was never supposed to go in, in a matter of a couple days? iv'e seen a lot of people do 20B conversions, and it's never a simple "run it into the shop and take it home the next week" affair... Just ordering up a rather hard to get 20b would have taken a while, and the instal isn't just a plug and play. The radiator has to be relocated, new mounts made, the exhaust has to be redone, the computer is used to a 2 rotor turbo engine with a completely different ignition and fuel delivery system, etc...
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Old 08-03-2004, 02:43 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by thunderbird1100
I always laugh at those idiots in the new 'hemi' dodge products...they dont even really have hemi-sphereical combustion chambers....WTF, it's not a hemi people WAKE UP (does Homer simpson crazy dance)


Yes, the engine IS a hemi. It does indeed have hemishperical combustion chambers, they just filled in a couple corners to get better quench. the heads are very similar to the original hemi engines that Chrysler made from '53-up. Unlike those early hemi's it has 2 spark plugs per cyl (necessary to get the 2 valve Hemi to meet emissions. While it makes more power than a wedge head, it aslso makes more NOx, due to the cooler flame front), and the aforementioned quench areas, which is why it makes more power, torque and fuel economy that the larger engine it replaced.
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Old 08-03-2004, 02:47 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbird1100
I always laugh at those idiots in the new 'hemi' dodge products...they dont even really have hemi-sphereical combustion chambers....WTF, it's not a hemi people WAKE UP (does Homer simpson crazy dance)


Yes, the engine IS a hemi. It does indeed have hemishperical combustion chambers, they just filled in a couple corners to get better quench. the heads are very similar to the original hemi engines that Chrysler made from '51-up. Unlike those early hemi's it has 2 spark plugs per cyl (necessary to get the 2 valve Hemi to meet emissions. While it makes more power than a wedge head, it aslso makes more NOx, due to the cooler flame front), and the aforementioned quench areas, which is why it makes more power, torque and fuel economy that the larger engine it replaced.

http://www.dodgeboy.net/news/57hemi/...hemi_frame.htm
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Old 08-03-2004, 02:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Zalight
Yes it does. Did you read all the posts? The two major problems with the rotary are its apex seals and its enormous heat production. And they are both easily surmountable. You can upgrade to better apex seals for $500, instead of paying $4000 for a new engine. To get over the heat you can get an aluminum radiator, set of fans and a swirl pot. Blat. great cooling.

If any of you don't know what a swirl pot is I won't be surprised, they are more common in europe then any where else and not even that common there. You mostly see them on race cars, rallycars etc. They swirl the water around to get rid of any air in the water by centrifugal force, by fitting a Swirl Pot into the top hose of the radiator you will eliminate hot-spots caused by cavitation in the cooling system. They connect directly into water(header) tanks, with either dash fittings or conventional push on fittings. Plus they're cheap; about $80 for a good quality cooling tool.

The newer Apex seals are great for race applications, but they don't seal well when cold. And the cost of Apex seals doens' tinclude the costs of pulling apart the engine and putting it back together. if the engine has been together for years, then you'll need to check the housings to make sure that taking them apart didn't warp them (which would mean th eengine wouldn't last more than a few weeks after being reassembled). You also have to replace all the OTHER seals in the engine (there are multiple O rings on each housing to seal the water jacket that have to be replaces when the engine is pulled apart). there are also multiple side seals and oil control seals per rotor, and corner buttons and springs on the outside corners of each apex seal.

While there may be only three major moving parts, there is a lot more to it that that. Holding all those seals in place while reinstalling a rotor is a major PITA, and I've seen numerous rebilds fail due to a side seal coming off of a rotor during installation (on the back side of the rotor from where the installer is at). And don't forget the oil pump and timing equipment.
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Old 08-03-2004, 05:20 PM   #26
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One tric that we use is to stick the seals in place with a celulose glue, burns off harmlessly and gives you alot more control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
The newer Apex seals are great for race applications, but they don't seal well when cold. And the cost of Apex seals doens' tinclude the costs of pulling apart the engine and putting it back together. if the engine has been together for years, then you'll need to check the housings to make sure that taking them apart didn't warp them (which would mean th eengine wouldn't last more than a few weeks after being reassembled). You also have to replace all the OTHER seals in the engine (there are multiple O rings on each housing to seal the water jacket that have to be replaces when the engine is pulled apart). there are also multiple side seals and oil control seals per rotor, and corner buttons and springs on the outside corners of each apex seal.

While there may be only three major moving parts, there is a lot more to it that that. Holding all those seals in place while reinstalling a rotor is a major PITA, and I've seen numerous rebilds fail due to a side seal coming off of a rotor during installation (on the back side of the rotor from where the installer is at). And don't forget the oil pump and timing equipment.
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:48 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by cinqyg
One tric that we use is to stick the seals in place with a celulose glue, burns off harmlessly and gives you alot more control.

That's what I've used (as well as a tight string holding the apex seals in until the rotor gets about halfway into the housing).

The point was that there's a lot more to a rotary than 3 moving parts, and a lot more to think about than just swapping in new apex seals.
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Old 08-03-2004, 10:35 PM   #28
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How did you put the much longer 20B into the RX7, and get it running with the computer and all the accessories, in car that engine was never supposed to go in, in a matter of a couple days? iv'e seen a lot of people do 20B conversions, and it's never a simple "run it into the shop and take it home the next week" affair... Just ordering up a rather hard to get 20b would have taken a while, and the instal isn't just a plug and play. The radiator has to be relocated, new mounts made, the exhaust has to be redone, the computer is used to a 2 rotor turbo engine with a completely different ignition and fuel delivery system, etc...

I haven't asked her about it fully. All I know is she took it to a guy that builds RX-7's with any kind of swap known to man (5.0's, 350's, etc), she said the engine got in about 6 days before our trip...6 days seems plausible for most any-engine swap. Especially with someone knowing what they are doing.
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Old 08-03-2004, 10:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ChrisV
Yes, the engine IS a hemi. It does indeed have hemishperical combustion chambers, they just filled in a couple corners to get better quench. the heads are very similar to the original hemi engines that Chrysler made from '53-up. Unlike those early hemi's it has 2 spark plugs per cyl (necessary to get the 2 valve Hemi to meet emissions. While it makes more power than a wedge head, it aslso makes more NOx, due to the cooler flame front), and the aforementioned quench areas, which is why it makes more power, torque and fuel economy that the larger engine it replaced.

To most people I spoke to they say it's not really a 'real' hemispherical combustion chamber. You can kind of argue both sides...oh well.
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Old 08-03-2004, 11:10 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
The newer Apex seals are great for race applications, but they don't seal well when cold. And the cost of Apex seals doens' tinclude the costs of pulling apart the engine and putting it back together. if the engine has been together for years, then you'll need to check the housings to make sure that taking them apart didn't warp them (which would mean th eengine wouldn't last more than a few weeks after being reassembled). You also have to replace all the OTHER seals in the engine (there are multiple O rings on each housing to seal the water jacket that have to be replaces when the engine is pulled apart). there are also multiple side seals and oil control seals per rotor, and corner buttons and springs on the outside corners of each apex seal...

I know that , as with any other engine, there is a lot of work involved when trying to upgrade engine internals, and that there are more then a few things that have to be donte in order to make a very good quality engine. I was merely saying that the first things any rotary owner would want to think about upgrading would be his cooling system and his apex seals.

And I know that replacing the seals isn't a esay matter, but its not incredibly difficult either. In fact last weekend I watched someone, who uses his RX for track racing not street use, replace his apex seals with a custom made set that cost him close to $1000. They can handle 600 horsepwoer at the flywheel for 80-100,000 miles. Which covers him since hes only running 450 RWhorse and 375 rw torque. It took him two sittings of 6-7 hours each to take apart his 13b replace the seals and put it all back together again. with a break in between where we went to get wendys tasty,tasty junior bacon cheesbugers and frosties...mmmmmmm...frosties

By the way, Has anyone heard of the cryogenically frozen parts some companies offer? I heard that the U.S. government is giving out grants for people to start doing this. Apparently the freezing process forces all the impurities out of the metal leaving behind a stronger material without changing size or shape. Well it does change it but only on a very insignifagant scale. But I havent heard much beyond that. Anybody here anything about this? Does it actually work? How much does it cost?
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