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View Poll Results: What would you do?
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Old 11-22-2004, 03:50 AM   #31
Leuthesius
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I am a noob.

I'm going to go ahead and get that out in the open, simply to reduce the "shut the f*ck up because you don't know what you're talking about" responses to a minimum.

You're having issues getting it started, unless you put in ether, or hold it down for a long period of time while pumping the pedal. Like another person said, that means a fuel problem. I'm inclined to agree.

It's not firing. Or maybe it is, and there's nothing there.

That tells me that there's possibly a pressure issue here. Not enough air and fuel mix to fire. The "Cheap assed forged pistons" could possibly cause that, or maybe bad rings. I don't think this is an issue with spark plugs, unless they've not been replaced. Have you tried replacing the distributor cap? I don't quite recall seeing that on the list. Maybe it's not firing properly?

Replace your pistons, check your fuel hoses, make sure there's no leaks. Double check the fuel pump. Is it electronic? Is it plugged in?

If it turns out to be something simple, then I really have to wonder why it stumped even Click & Clack. Those guys are geniouses.
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Old 11-22-2004, 03:56 AM   #32
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Post Downloadable Engine Sound

I just recorded the engine noise as a wave for anyone that would be curious hearing the car start themseleves. It is currently 42 F here and I just made this recoding about 8 minutes ago. The belts you hear do not normally whine like that and is probably because I have no started the car for a week or so and it is so humid and cold out. But anyways, Here is the URL:

http://www.nissan.hopto.org/carstart.wav

The file is about 1.6 MB.
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Old 11-22-2004, 04:07 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maiolo99
I just recorded the engine noise as a wave for anyone that would be curious hearing the car start themseleves. It is currently 42 F here and I just made this recoding about 8 minutes ago. The belts you hear do not normally whine like that and is probably because I have no started the car for a week or so and it is so humid and cold out. But anyways, Here is the URL:

http://www.nissan.hopto.org/carstart.wav

The file is about 1.6 MB.

Don't rev up a cold engine like that! However, it sounds very healthy.

I can't really tell anything from that sound clip. Thanks to that very, very, very annoying sound.



Quote:
Originally Posted by maiolo99
I was brosing the ARRC (Auto Repair Reference Center) and got curious and checked out the Service Bulletins/Recalls. You need a subscription to the site so I pulled the PDF's off and stuck them on my site that got my attention. Here are the URL's:

http://www.nissan.hopto.org/ColdTips.pdf and http://www.nissan.hopto.org/NoColdStart.pdf

The second one (NoColdStart.pdf) is more of a recall in my mind than the first (though I do not believe officially) and really seems to head me in the right direction. It speaks of a a 91-94 GA16 Engine (mine) not starting at High Altitudes (above 5000 Feet) with the combo of cold temperature. It says it is due to too rich a mixture and a faulty countermeasure (C/M) altitude switch. I know I am not above 5000 Feet (there may have been a glacier slide last night I didnt see), however, the First PDF (ColdTips.pdf) almost seems to strike the nail on the head with exactly what it takes to start my car with the "Cranking" method I talked about earlier.

I will leave the judgement up to you guys, but could this be it or am I making crazy assumptions. Check out both PDF's. If you do not have a PDF reader, I'm sure you can pull this info up on any recall website for the 1992 Nissan Sentra XE GA16 1.6L Engine. If you do think this is it, can I use any of the 1994 Nissan Sentra parts as a sub for buying this "kit" to fix it? I would have no idea where to begin with this unless I bough the "kit" which probably cost a small fortune direct from Nissan.


This just keeps on changing. I'm going to have to suggest you call them and talk to them about it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Leuthesius
I am a noob.

I'm going to go ahead and get that out in the open, simply to reduce the "shut the f*ck up because you don't know what you're talking about" responses to a minimum.

You're having issues getting it started, unless you put in ether, or hold it down for a long period of time while pumping the pedal. Like another person said, that means a fuel problem. I'm inclined to agree.

It's not firing. Or maybe it is, and there's nothing there.

That tells me that there's possibly a pressure issue here. Not enough air and fuel mix to fire. The "Cheap assed forged pistons" could possibly cause that, or maybe bad rings. I don't think this is an issue with spark plugs, unless they've not been replaced. Have you tried replacing the distributor cap? I don't quite recall seeing that on the list. Maybe it's not firing properly?

Replace your pistons, check your fuel hoses, make sure there's no leaks. Double check the fuel pump. Is it electronic? Is it plugged in?

If it turns out to be something simple, then I really have to wonder why it stumped even Click & Clack. Those guys are geniouses.



What a load of crap.
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Old 11-22-2004, 04:12 AM   #34
maiolo99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leuthesius
I am a noob.

I'm going to go ahead and get that out in the open, simply to reduce the "shut the f*ck up because you don't know what you're talking about" responses to a minimum.

You're having issues getting it started, unless you put in ether, or hold it down for a long period of time while pumping the pedal. Like another person said, that means a fuel problem. I'm inclined to agree.

It's not firing. Or maybe it is, and there's nothing there.

That tells me that there's possibly a pressure issue here. Not enough air and fuel mix to fire. The "Cheap assed forged pistons" could possibly cause that, or maybe bad rings. I don't think this is an issue with spark plugs, unless they've not been replaced. Have you tried replacing the distributor cap? I don't quite recall seeing that on the list. Maybe it's not firing properly?

Replace your pistons, check your fuel hoses, make sure there's no leaks. Double check the fuel pump. Is it electronic? Is it plugged in?

If it turns out to be something simple, then I really have to wonder why it stumped even Click & Clack. Those guys are geniouses.

Click and Clack are geniouses and the first call I had with them about the car they told me about the elevation issue but said it only really affected cars in Colorado and other high elevation so they gave me a list of things to fix, which I did and tried to mention the best I could remember. Everything they suggested was replaced, and still the same problem. I called them again, and again, and again and finally was able to get on the air again. They immediatly remembered my call/car and where stumped themselves it did not fix it. They said to check into the elevation issue with a mechanic but never mentioned anything about it accompanying a cold start as the PDF's I just posted did. I did not make the conection untill I just read them that they were talking about the same thing. So anyways, I duplicated the starting noises using my excellent vocals on the same call and they said to recheck the parts I had installed and to have the computer replaced- which I did. I can not remember everything now, but everything they suggested I do, I did and the car has the same problem. I have not talked to them since. They did not include the distributor and cap in their list (they were focused mainly on fuel issues) but I replaced them anyways for the heck of it (along with spark plugs and wires). This is when (2 months later) I started this post after I bought the 1994 Nissan because I have become 100% determined to fix it. The Audio Clip http://www.nissan.hopto.org/carstart.wav is from 15 minutes ago at 42 F (acording to weather.com) and may help as you can listen to it first hand.
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Old 11-22-2004, 04:35 AM   #35
Leuthesius
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I hate to say it, but this could very well be an issue similar to my own Nissan.

It's called "A Lemon"

I've poured around $12,000 into a car I bought for $3,500 (3.5k inculded in 12k), and still I have issues, transmission needs repalced or rebuilt (again), hub assembly is needing replaced.. the car is *almost* brand new mechanically, but then again, it's got 195,000 miles on it, and the engine is immaculate.

Could just be because the car is a nissan, or old.
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Old 11-22-2004, 04:36 AM   #36
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Post Another try at the audio clip

Same URL, http://www.nissan.hopto.org/carstart.wav - different audio clip. This time I closed the door so the annoying beeping sound would not be heard. In trade, you cannot hear the egine as well. Same size, 1.6 MB- 1 Minute Long. I did not rev the engine this time and if you can listen closly you can hear the engine finally start off and idle nicely before I shut the engine off and stop the auidio clip. I have no idea if this audio clip will help anyone at all- sorry if it is more annoyance than help.
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Old 11-22-2004, 04:46 AM   #37
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No lemon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leuthesius
I hate to say it, but this could very well be an issue similar to my own Nissan.

It's called "A Lemon"

I've poured around $12,000 into a car I bought for $3,500 (3.5k inculded in 12k), and still I have issues, transmission needs repalced or rebuilt (again), hub assembly is needing replaced.. the car is *almost* brand new mechanically, but then again, it's got 195,000 miles on it, and the engine is immaculate.

Could just be because the car is a nissan, or old.


It's not a lemon in my book. The car has no issues at all other than this listed on this post. The transmission is good, engine is good, body is good, steering/suspension/tires are great (plus just about every peripheral engine component now being new). Once this car gets started it drives as nicely as a new car. In the Spring/summer it is 100% reliable and will start every time. I was thinking about selling it in the summer and act ignorant but I just couldnt do it and besides I get attached to all my cars after I have them for a while. Everything that has gone wrong on my 92' Ford Escort since I owned it in '98 I have fixed and it is nearing 200K- All the sudden you notice your pride and joy is worth nothing to anyone else (perhaps $400) and everything you have with the car is emotional. Although I can see why you might think I am crazy for making so much trouble about an old 92 Nissan Sentra- it's just somehow different in my eyes when you own it and poor your own blood and spit into it. I just feel like I am so close to give up... And still, it does start, just not the way most would prefer, including myself.
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Old 11-22-2004, 06:04 PM   #38
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maiolo99,

That sound clip is alot better. I know you are sick of making them, but could you do one more? This time Crank the car as always, when it starts, let it run for a few seconds, cut it off, start it again until it runs. Just as soon as that engine shuts down, crank it immediately right back up. If it doesn't start right back up after shutting it off, just immediately after shutting it off, I'm going to have to go and look at wiring diagrams of how the ignition and fuel system is managed when the ignition is in the START position.



As I said before, about the C/M switch. I suggest that you call Nissan and talk to someone knowledgeable about this C/M switch and get all the information you can about it. Symptoms and such. I'd really like to know what exactly this thing does. I'll see if I can find out myself.

Last edited by DodgeRida67 : 11-22-2004 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 11-22-2004, 08:52 PM   #39
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Post 50 F Audio Clip- Engine Start

Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgeRida67
maiolo99,

That sound clip is alot better. I know you are sick of making them, but could you do one more? This time Crank the car as always, when it starts, let it run for a few seconds, cut it off, start it again until it runs. Just as soon as that engine shuts down, crank it immediately right back up. If it doesn't start right back up after shutting it off, just immediately after shutting it off, I'm going to have to go and look at wiring diagrams of how the ignition and fuel system is managed when the ignition is in the START position.



As I said before, about the C/M switch. I suggest that you call Nissan and talk to someone knowledgeable about this C/M switch and get all the information you can about it. Symptoms and such. I'd really like to know what exactly this thing does. I'll see if I can find out myself.


Ok- Here is a nice audio clip of the engine starting 3 times.( http://www.nissan.hopto.org/carstart3.wav ) Let me explain a bit about it before you listen. First of all, it is currently 50 F out (well, 48 F) and you will see what I mean about the engine starting better. Remember where I said 'On the first crank it always wants to start'? Well, because it is near 50 F the first crank or so it DID start. Then you will hear me shut it off and it crank again. This time it does not start on the first crank as you will hear. It finally starts and I repeat the process again for the third start (then the audio clip ends). This audio clip is a lot nicer (i think) because I stuck the recorder under the hood to give a nice clear sound (no annoying beeps either!). I don't know if it is the best test because it is so close to 50F. If it were 30F or something you would definatly hear a difference because the car would REALLY not want to start (sorry I use CAPS for italics becase I dont know an easier way at the moment).

However, with all my babling- here is a verbal response to: 'If it doesn't start right back up after shutting it off, just immediately after shutting it off...' - Let's assume it was still 40 F out. It NEVER would start right back up after it ran for a few seconds. The engine at least has to be running for a bout 15 mins to 'warm up' for this to work.
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Old 11-22-2004, 09:16 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maiolo99
Ok- Here is a nice audio clip of the engine starting 3 times.( http://www.nissan.hopto.org/carstart3.wav ) Let me explain a bit about it before you listen. First of all, it is currently 50 F out (well, 48 F) and you will see what I mean about the engine starting better. Remember where I said 'On the first crank it always wants to start'? Well, because it is near 50 F the first crank or so it DID start. Then you will hear me shut it off and it crank again. This time it does not start on the first crank as you will hear. It finally starts and I repeat the process again for the third start (then the audio clip ends). This audio clip is a lot nicer (i think) because I stuck the recorder under the hood to give a nice clear sound (no annoying beeps either!). I don't know if it is the best test because it is so close to 50F. If it were 30F or something you would definatly hear a difference because the car would REALLY not want to start (sorry I use CAPS for italics becase I dont know an easier way at the moment).

However, with all my babling- here is a verbal response to: 'If it doesn't start right back up after shutting it off, just immediately after shutting it off...' - Let's assume it was still 40 F out. It NEVER would start right back up after it ran for a few seconds. The engine at least has to be running for a bout 15 mins to 'warm up' for this to work.


You know, the problem as Nissan explained it is that the air/fuel is to rich to start when below 50 degrees and at high altitude above 5,000FT. To rich... However, it cranks fine when warmed up. Correct? Well, you need a richer mixture when cold as opposed to a leaner mixture when the engine is at or near normal operating temperature. So what I'm saying is, if the fuel/air is to rich when cranking, it should be even worse to crank when its at normal operating temperature, because that requires a leaner mixture. Also, in my mind, if it was infact a problem with air/fuel mixture being too rich, it would start up when you cranked it immediately after shutting it down, or atleast come close to it. But that little detail doesn't have to hold true.

What I'm saying is, I'm doubting that this C/M switch would solve your problem. It doesn't add up. However, if it wasn't your problem, it is a hell of a coincidence.

Putting all that aside, it really sounds like you are not getting the fuel you need judging from that last audio clip. Back to what I said many posts back; you need to check fuel flow and pressure at the engine. Do it when it's a little colder out. You are going to need the help of a friend.

Last edited by DodgeRida67 : 11-22-2004 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 11-22-2004, 11:35 PM   #41
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Give me your quick opinion

This is slightly off topic but will only take a second. Check out: http://www.nissan.hopto.org/eginerun.wav . It is recorded right at the valve cover and is the engine running. It is about 20 Seconds long. Are you hearing what I am hearing? This day never ends....

Last edited by maiolo99 : 11-22-2004 at 11:40 PM. Reason: Wrong URL
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Old 11-23-2004, 02:33 AM   #42
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Still compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by maiolo99
This is slightly off topic but will only take a second. Check out: http://www.nissan.hopto.org/eginerun.wav . It is recorded right at the valve cover and is the engine running. It is about 20 Seconds long. Are you hearing what I am hearing? This day never ends....

Look, Maiolo, i dont want you to feed into the negative things others say on this site. These guys may have worked in a shop forever.....but i OWN my shop. Local mechanics take their problems to me when they cant be solved. I have to tell you that it is extremely hard to diagnose a problem over the internet. My marketing team thought it may be smart for me to try. I am new at car forums, however, i DO know A LOT about drivability problems. Dont let these guys shut people down on this site. Ive noticed that there are very few people here trying to help. Did you try the oil trick? Your sound waves are a bit on the quite side, however, your engine does seem to turn over quite fast. Is that accurate? Is it turning over faster during inital start up than at other times? Thus it would still suggest a compression issue. Oh, fuel pumps work or they dont....Very rarely do they pump, but at a barely less than optimal pressure. About the pistons, i've been so busy to really explain, and i didnt want to write a book about it. However, on an engine that has forged pistons(your car may have them or not) they have much greater expansion and contraction properties than others. Take into consideration ring and wall wear and you may end up with a compression issue. I dont want people to knock me right away, but i cant go on and on here. To make a car start, you need the proper amounts of fuel, air compression and timing. These are the things we have to focus on. Dodge may be right, you dont have enough fuel, howerer, what if you have too much? Check the pressure, is it in spec? You have a good injector? Good sensors? Coolant temp sensors do this crap all the time, but if your motor is spinning faster than usual, it may have lower compression. This may be caused by the things ive talked about. Ether will start a low compression motor. Does your car blow black smoke after start up? Or no smoke at all? Does it seem rich when its cold i.e. black smoke again, do your plugs look black and sooty? Feathering the throttle will make a car that has a rich start condition finally start ( try holding it wide open, on some cars it will shut the fuel off and help it start). Again, these things are hard to fix online, i said bring it to me i could do it. I caught some crap for that, but i know i could. But online, we do this one step at a time. I will still be here, unless you say otherwise. Lots of guys are down here are giving me advice to tell you, cold start injectors are a topic, however, these guys know nissans and have been racing them forever, let me know. K
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Old 11-23-2004, 03:43 AM   #43
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I do appreciate it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hi.alt.perform
Look, Maiolo, i dont want you to feed into the negative things others say on this site. These guys may have worked in a shop forever.....but i OWN my shop. Local mechanics take their problems to me when they cant be solved. I have to tell you that it is extremely hard to diagnose a problem over the internet. My marketing team thought it may be smart for me to try. I am new at car forums, however, i DO know A LOT about drivability problems. Dont let these guys shut people down on this site. Ive noticed that there are very few people here trying to help. Did you try the oil trick? Your sound waves are a bit on the quite side, however, your engine does seem to turn over quite fast. Is that accurate? Is it turning over faster during inital start up than at other times? Thus it would still suggest a compression issue. Oh, fuel pumps work or they dont....Very rarely do they pump, but at a barely less than optimal pressure. About the pistons, i've been so busy to really explain, and i didnt want to write a book about it. However, on an engine that has forged pistons(your car may have them or not) they have much greater expansion and contraction properties than others. Take into consideration ring and wall wear and you may end up with a compression issue. I dont want people to knock me right away, but i cant go on and on here. To make a car start, you need the proper amounts of fuel, air compression and timing. These are the things we have to focus on. Dodge may be right, you dont have enough fuel, howerer, what if you have too much? Check the pressure, is it in spec? You have a good injector? Good sensors? Coolant temp sensors do this crap all the time, but if your motor is spinning faster than usual, it may have lower compression. This may be caused by the things ive talked about. Ether will start a low compression motor. Does your car blow black smoke after start up? Or no smoke at all? Does it seem rich when its cold i.e. black smoke again, do your plugs look black and sooty? Feathering the throttle will make a car that has a rich start condition finally start ( try holding it wide open, on some cars it will shut the fuel off and help it start). Again, these things are hard to fix online, i said bring it to me i could do it. I caught some crap for that, but i know i could. But online, we do this one step at a time. I will still be here, unless you say otherwise. Lots of guys are down here are giving me advice to tell you, cold start injectors are a topic, however, these guys know nissans and have been racing them forever, let me know. K

Well, first of all- everyone that has given me advice so far I have weighted just about equally. Judging someone's expertise when I am no expert myself is like trying to guess which horse will win before a race if I know nothing about horses or races- in other words, early judgements on who knows what is useless if I am the biggest dummy myself. Some questions are obviously off wack, but mostly what I have gotten from everyone seem's like a fair enough shot given what everyone knows.

Anyways, with that said- you gave me a load of questions that I will try and answer the best I can within the next few days, so stay posted to this forum. These are the questions I will be focusing on:
- Is the pressure in spec?
- Are the injector's good?
- Are the sensors good?
- Does the car blow black smoke after start up?
- Or no smoke at all?
- Does it seem rich when its cold? (i.e. black smoke again)
- Do the plugs look black and sooty?
- Does holding the throtle wide open help it start?
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Old 01-05-2005, 05:44 PM   #44
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HOLY COW!!!! there is alot of blog on this one!!! or maybe its just alot of that frickin mouse.. its huge.. make that thing smaller.
?: does it fire up fine after you get it going and its warmed up?
is it a new distributor, did you check for oil in side by the optic sensor? this could be a cause of not getting proper spark from the distributor to the wires, but everything else looked good in test

honestly my thoughts go to the last post: The fuel rail...
your injectors do rely on vacumm from the firing and pressure from the fuel pump. so if your getting it started by injecting an ignition source thru the intake then it fires up; it could be gummed up in the fuel rail before the injectors take it.
Just a thought!!
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Old 02-24-2005, 02:43 AM   #45
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Whatever happened with this vehicle? In all the replacing going on was air looked at? Perhaps the amm? My sister's volvo is starting to act up like that.

Last edited by buzzardsbrew : 02-24-2005 at 02:44 AM. Reason: Cause I can
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