Originally Posted by vwhobo
If somebody doesn't stop the flow of bullshit it simply continues. If...told enough times it becomes believed to be a fact.
While it isn't exactly BS...a basic misconception is that the Cleveland has a weak bottom end or that it has a weak oiling system or many other supposed weaknesses. Every engine has weaknesses when they are pushed beyond the reasonable design limitations (compromises) of both material and structural strengths.
My 351 Cleveland engine makes 608 HP. It is stroked to 393 CID and is far from stock. Does this mean that it has a weak bottom end? What constitutes a weak bottom end versus a strong one?
The Cleveland is somewhat harder to fit into tight places. The heads are massive and having that much bulk atop an engine means less room for exhaust manifolds. Everything having anything to do with automobiles is a series of compromises.
No, there was never a US domestic factory rated power of 380-something for a Cleveland. Most of the "high performance" variants here were rated at 335 HP.
...can you say 608 HP?
Whether or not the Windsor is somehow "better" than a Cleveland is really a matter of opinion, and more than anything else the history behind these engines--and their production facilities--sheds some light on it.
The factory Cleveland heads were not exceptional in any particular way except that they are very nearly a copy of a big block Chevy head shrunk down to fit on a small block Ford.
The classic "poor bottom end performance" from having TOO much of a generally accepted "good thing" was true in theory and oftentimes in practice with the Cleveland, but many 4V Cleveland engines run very well throughout their entire RPM range as a result of their owner's understanding them and how to properly use them.
Part of the difficulty in parts availability is from the lack of a long history of building the engines. The 351C was built in the US from 1970 to 1973 and during a period of time where aftermarket parts were largely bolt-ons and cylinder heads were not really part of that category in those days!
Australia Ford plants continued to produce the C in volume until 1989 (or thereabouts, I believe). Australia also had a unique offering that is known as a 302C, which is basically a 3" stroke crank in a 351 Cleveland engine block.
With only 3 years of production volumes in the US, engine parts are rather scarce in comparison to the Windsor, which is basically any of the 260-351W variants produced from about 1963 to somewhere around 1991 (I'm no Windsor's dates expert). Windsor people "in the know" also know that the "preferred" W heads are the C9 and D0 castings that are also very scarce due to their relatively short production term.
...every part new or readily available used, though the blocks are becoming rarer and rarer, probably because I'm hording 11 of them in my storage!
If anything is weak about the Cleveland, it is the thin wall block castings and consistently "sloppy" manufacturing/production of them. However, one can easily argue that it is NOT the FoMoCo's engineering department's responsibility to ensure that you can race a production car engine to 2-3 times its factory rated power levels.
In summary, vwhobo, it might be wiser to question the statements you've made about the Cleveland to truly understand whether you're simply promoting the misinformation you say you want to stop.
My Cleveland was built in about 3 months, of which most of the time was waiting in line at the machine shop. Parts abound for the Cleveland. Are they more expensive? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes no. A couple of days ago I bought a brand new full billet timing chain and gear set on eBay for $59.50...to go into my "next" Cleveland engine. Brand new alloy cylinder heads exist for the Cleveland at a price comparable to those available for the Windsor. The only thing that you can't really buy new any more is a block, and with the relatively easy interchange between the SVO blocks and the fact that crankshaft makers all make cranks for them, a Dart or SVO block are the way to go for serious output anyway.
This year I predict that a factory Cleveland engine block is going to win the coveted Engine Master's Challenge and will make at least 750 HP using a carburetor and 92 octane unleaded gasoline. That's a fairly tough number for any engine, regardless of maker.
...not exactly a whimpy bottom end.
Enough of my mindless dribble. You have to ask yourself a question. What do you really know about a Cleveland engine that gives you any form of expertise on the subject? I don't mean to be rude or insensitive, but if you're really trying to prevent BS, what credentials are you using for your knowledge of the C engine?
If you know where to look, Cleveland parts are plentiful and not overly expensive. The worst Cleveland head (351M and 400) outperforms the best Windsor head (C9/D0)--qualifying statement follows--as produced by FoMoCo.
It is without a doubt that the Clevelanders know that given the SAME budget, that they can blow away a Windsor engine in every category except maybe total displacement feasible. My poor little 393 made more torque and total horsepower than a friend of mine's 408W and both engines were relatively similar in budget, compression ratio (11.25:1) and camshaft type (solid roller) and camshaft properties (lift/duration). The difference was really 3" mains versus 2.749" and his "new technology" alloy Edelbrock Victor (whichever the "good ones" are) heads compared to my used, $1000 Ford Motorsports A3 heads circa 1982.
I'm sure that this, my first post to this forum, has worn out my welcome here, but I hope that you won't have any difficulty accepting some of this at face value while noting much of it is just meant to be put forth as light humor and certainly not any kind of real or intentional attack on you as an individual.