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Old 01-21-2005, 12:11 AM   #46
Wally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
Length, diameter, etc, is of little to no importance BEFORE the air is metered, except that you want to have as little obstruction as possible

I tend to disagree with you on this point, but the rest of your content covers the basics.
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Old 01-21-2005, 03:15 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Wally
I tend to disagree with you on this point, but the rest of your content covers the basics.

Why? Just as examples, the airbox on my Jaguar is right off teh metering location, but the same exact fuel injection on my Fiat and my old BMW 6 series (all use the same Bosch injection) have the airboxes before the metering block in different locations in the engine compartment according to space.

BEFORE the metering block, it's no different than putting an air cleaner on a carb. The distance from the carb to the air cleaner element makes virtually no difference. Only how much air can flow. It won't change the powerband, where in the rpm range the power is made or how much power is made for any reason other than how restricted and warm the air.
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Old 01-21-2005, 03:49 AM   #48
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Phsyically speaking ChrisV has every bit of the correct point. If your nostrils were any bigger or your mouth could open any wider would you be able to breathe any better? Absolutley not. However if the passage ways in your lungs or throat were larger in diameter you would be able to breath alot better.

The space of the intake valves, head, and throttle body are what make the big difference. So long as there is no restriction, you won't be able to take in anymore air than is only able to be handled within the restrictions of your internal workings AFTER the air is measured.
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Old 01-21-2005, 05:46 AM   #49
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Well I hear what you are saying, but:

if the intake prior to the MAF is sized smaller the authority will be that section if it is less than the capacity index value of the TB and anything else downstream;

the VE is dependent on the intake pipe configuration pre TB;

the ECU relies on accurate MAF measurement, which will give false readings if the flow is turbulant;

the shape of the intake mouth is also important to get good flow characteristics;

So the intake upstream of the MAF/TB is important. If you want to make analogy about the human respiratory system, then by all means inhale as fast as you can and measure the amount exhaled via a ballon as opposed to a rapid controlled breath.
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Old 01-21-2005, 01:57 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Well I hear what you are saying, but:

if the intake prior to the MAF is sized smaller the authority will be that section if it is less than the capacity index value of the TB and anything else downstream;

the VE is dependent on the intake pipe configuration pre TB;

the ECU relies on accurate MAF measurement, which will give false readings if the flow is turbulant;

the shape of the intake mouth is also important to get good flow characteristics;

So the intake upstream of the MAF/TB is important. If you want to make analogy about the human respiratory system, then by all means inhale as fast as you can and measure the amount exhaled via a ballon as opposed to a rapid controlled breath.

Exactly how many aftermarket intakes have you seen that look "that much" different?(For an individual car ofcourse. I know that a Camaro 350 Intake looks totally different from a Honda intake) They are all just about the same diameter and very few of them differ in neck size. The point is you're not going to notice the greatest difference between any aftermarket intake. I've read the articles, done the studies. Averaging between 8-16HP is all that differs. Wich is absoultley nothing in the world of performance.

You're making to much of a deal out of something that won't matter anymore than the kind of winshield solvent you put in your car. Creating larger workings after the air is measured is where your power gains are coming from. Opening up the intakes manifold and porting the heads is where the real air flow power comes from. Not the intake, thus proving that the more important part of the airflow is after the air is measured. Not saying chosing a decently crafted intake won't help. Just saying that its not going to turn your 14 second racer into a 13.
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Old 01-22-2005, 12:16 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
Exactly how many aftermarket intakes have you seen that look "that much" different?(For an individual car ofcourse. I know that a Camaro 350 Intake looks totally different from a Honda intake) They are all just about the same diameter and very few of them differ in neck size. The point is you're not going to notice the greatest difference between any aftermarket intake. I've read the articles, done the studies. Averaging between 8-16HP is all that differs. Wich is absoultley nothing in the world of performance.

You're making to much of a deal out of something that won't matter anymore than the kind of winshield solvent you put in your car. Creating larger workings after the air is measured is where your power gains are coming from. Opening up the intakes manifold and porting the heads is where the real air flow power comes from. Not the intake, thus proving that the more important part of the airflow is after the air is measured. Not saying chosing a decently crafted intake won't help. Just saying that its not going to turn your 14 second racer into a 13.

I see how you can simply dismiss various items of performance enhancement as inconsequential. You being a self professed racer with an extraordinary 1/4" mile time should know that millions are spent on wringing out the last 1/4HP to get the edge over a competitor.

So Joe Public goes and buys his poorly engineered american pushrod V8 and proceeds to modify it with all the usual stuff, including stroker crank, $2k alloy heads with 250cc tunnels, 60cc chambers, wedge heads, 295 cams, 0.6" lift, etc. Eventually after spending huge sums replicating what every other flannel shirted man in the world has done he actually gets it near to the performance of a standard toyota power plant, even with a 4bbl carby circa 1939. Then what?

I'll tell you what, with the toyota V8 you whack a turbo pack on it, run aviation fuel, slap a quality ECU on it, wind up the boost to 30 psi and demolish the competition. But Joe with the small block knows the internals won't handle decent boost he goes looking for a big block or just bites the bullet and buys a jap 4 pot and wind up the boost.
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Old 01-22-2005, 06:20 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
I see how you can simply dismiss various items of performance enhancement as inconsequential. You being a self professed racer with an extraordinary 1/4" mile time should know that millions are spent on wringing out the last 1/4HP to get the edge over a competitor.

So Joe Public goes and buys his poorly engineered american pushrod V8 and proceeds to modify it with all the usual stuff, including stroker crank, $2k alloy heads with 250cc tunnels, 60cc chambers, wedge heads, 295 cams, 0.6" lift, etc. Eventually after spending huge sums replicating what every other flannel shirted man in the world has done he actually gets it near to the performance of a standard toyota power plant, even with a 4bbl carby circa 1939. Then what?

I'll tell you what, with the toyota V8 you whack a turbo pack on it, run aviation fuel, slap a quality ECU on it, wind up the boost to 30 psi and demolish the competition. But Joe with the small block knows the internals won't handle decent boost he goes looking for a big block or just bites the bullet and buys a jap 4 pot and wind up the boost.

Millions are spent on the last few horsepower? Haha, hat the hell are you talking about. Sure Mr. Toyota V8 .
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Old 01-22-2005, 11:02 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
Millions are spent on the last few horsepower? Haha, hat the hell are you talking about. Sure Mr. Toyota V8 .

Obviously something beyond your comprehension.
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Old 01-22-2005, 11:44 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
Obviously something beyond your comprehension.

Yeah because we all know the comparison of an American V8 to a Japanees V8 has all the relavancy to do with intakes. As a matter of fact I recall my first lesson about engine air induction to have something about Toyota V8's and American V8's. Not to mention pushrods and strokered internals. Because those all have everything importnat to do with getting air inside an engine.

Either you have a vaild point on a completly different subject or you're just a dumbass.

Me, I vote for dumbass.
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Old 01-23-2005, 12:01 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
Yeah because we all know the comparison of an American V8 to a Japanees V8 has all the relavancy to do with intakes. As a matter of fact I recall my first lesson about engine air induction to have something about Toyota V8's and American V8's. Not to mention pushrods and strokered internals. Because those all have everything importnat to do with getting air inside an engine.

Either you have a vaild point on a completly different subject or you're just a dumbass.

Me, I vote for dumbass.

I vote for dumbass too.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:12 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
Yeah because we all know the comparison of an American V8 to a Japanees V8 has all the relavancy to do with intakes. As a matter of fact I recall my first lesson about engine air induction to have something about Toyota V8's and American V8's. Not to mention pushrods and strokered internals. Because those all have everything importnat to do with getting air inside an engine.

Either you have a vaild point on a completly different subject or you're just a dumbass.

Me, I vote for dumbass.

What class would that be..woodworking for beginners? So far you have explained how a wastegate closes to reduce boost, how a flywheel not only reduces power, but spins at half the speed of a crank, how you have an 8.76 Eclipse and a raft of other inane advices.

There is a lot more to a well engineered engine than just making it breath better. I already informed you I was was dumb (interpret stupid). It's just that on a scale I am obviously brighter than some others, not many mind you, just one or two in this thread.

BTW as you undoubtedly a gifted person would you mind explaining your credentials? I seem to recall you maintained you are an accredited engineer and a track legend? I think I need to review the standards of the university you attended and have a chat with the dean of engineering. I make no bones about my capabilities = I don't have any = I'm Australian, but at least I'm not a pimply xenophobic adolescent who thinks his fantasy world is therefore must be.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:20 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
how you have an 8.76 Eclipse

i think the mistake most people make here are correlating the numbers to the pictures below the numbers.

actually, if you pushed it off a cliff, im sure it'd go pretty quick, but then on second thoughts, it'd only clock a 9.8 second pass
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:24 AM   #58
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So far you have explained how a wastegate closes to reduce boost
Nope, did'nt say to reduce boost. Lets not lie on me to make you look good.
how a flywheel not only reduces power, but spins at half the speed of a crank,
Again, I never said "half the speed". Stop lying on me in attempts to make yourself look better.
how you have an 8.76 Eclipse and a raft of other inane advices.
Laslty, I never said that was mine. Again you can't seem to stop creating falisys about things I have said.

I seem to recall you maintained you are an accredited engineer and a track legend?
Nope, absolutley wrong again. Never said that, never lead anyone to beleive it.

Maybe you should get your facts straight and try again.
In the words of the Hobo, THINK, TYPE, SUBMIT.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:26 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshf2
i think the mistake most people make here are correlating the numbers to the pictures below the numbers.

actually, if you pushed it off a cliff, im sure it'd go pretty quick, but then on second thoughts, it'd only clock a 9.8 second pass

No the car in the picture does exaclty as the text that preceeds it. What kind of dumbass would post the stats of a car, next to a completly different car. Now that would'nt be you now would it? I surley hope not, but I'll keep my eyes open.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:30 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSMer
So far you have explained how a wastegate closes to reduce boost
Nope, did'nt say to reduce boost. Lets not lie on me to make you look good.
how a flywheel not only reduces power, but spins at half the speed of a crank,
Again, I never said "half the speed". Stop lying on me in attempts to make yourself look better.
how you have an 8.76 Eclipse and a raft of other inane advices.
Laslty, I never said that was mine. Again you can't seem to stop creating falisys about things I have said.

I seem to recall you maintained you are an accredited engineer and a track legend?
Nope, absolutley wrong again. Never said that, never lead anyone to beleive it.

Maybe you should get your facts straight and try again.
In the words of the Hobo, THINK, TYPE, SUBMIT.
As a bystander who has stood quietly by during this conversation, I think it's time to ask a question. Can Wally or joshf2 link me to where DSMer made those statements/claims? I challenge you to do so as I can't seem to find them. If they exist I'll be happy to condem him as well. If on the other hand they don't exist, I think he deserves a very public apology from both of you.

The clock is ticking and your credibility is on the line.
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